Christian Zionism Discussed

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#1
@DesertRose

Ok - it's worth considering the claims made here... This is what James Perloff believes "Christian Zionists" hold to, based on the link you posted:

https://jamesperloff.com/2016/08/31...omination-and-blasphemy-of-christian-zionism/

  • God wanted the Jews to return to, and take over, Palestine.
  • Godhas two plans of salvation—one through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the other a guarantee reserved for Jews, his “Chosen People.”
  • Christians should not involve themselves in politics, education, business or the arts, as these are “worldly” matters that should be left in the hands of “worldly” people. (The consequences of this doctrine are very visible in American culture today.)
  • God deals with mankind differently during different historical time frames or “dispensations,” of which there are seven. The current one, “Grace” under Jesus Christ, is merely the sixth of the seven dispensations.
  • The Christian Church is doomed to inevitable failure, which will bring the Dispensation of Grace to a close.
  • The end of this dispensational age will be marked by the Tribulation—worldwide persecution under the Antichrist for a period of seven years; however, Christians need not concern themselves with this, since Jesus will “Rapture” believers off the Earth and they won’t be around to experience it.
  • Earth will then experience a Jewish era; Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifices will be reinstituted; Jesus will reign for a thousand years from Solomon’s rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.
I have benefitted in my understanding of the Islamic perspective of prophecy you have provided in the "Prophetic Expectations" thread. The issue I want to draw out if anyone is interested...

Based on the supposed position of Christian Zionists set out above, to what degree does this characterisation represent the straightforward reading of the Bible or accurately reflect the beliefs of those others would label as "Christian Zionists".
 





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Vytas

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#2
I agree with 4th... 3rd is laughable... I can see from where in the bible those point are taken from, but my opinion it's truth mixed with lies...Interesting what "Christians for Israel" think about those...
 





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#4
A "Christian Zionist" sounds an awful like an oxymoron.
There is so much information and bias conveyed in language... Who is a "terrorist" and who a "freedom fighter". It all depends on who you ask!

I found this documented visit to the first Church in Jerusalem quite enlightening...

 





Illuminized

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#5
I think we should refer to them as Protestant Zionists (this includes practically every non-Catholic sect with exception of Gnosticism). It has traditionally been Catholics who are wary about Jews. They often see Jews as competitors while Protestants would like them to convert.
 





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#6
My main problem with Christian Zionism is that it is a very superstitious approach to scripture. The depth of the study is very limited and a very fairy tale like picture is created because of this.

It is like Christian Zionism is a mobile museum where the Christians are tourists and meeting a jew is like meeting a decendent of Moses they want to take a picture with. It is this way of creating this sort of celebrity.

In reality, what we need here pretty soon is something like the prophets to come snap the church out of this passive spectator role. The Bible has two places where I think people will have a wake up call. There are the thunders that were sealed and no one know what they mean and the two witnesses.

I think more than one group is going to be disappointed when these things start happening because everyone wants to be right at the moment, but they are all defending theocracy.

As Christians, we know that his kingdom is not of this world. I don’t know why the church isn’t defending this instead of defending the theocracy of Israel.

To be an Israeli citizen you have to have a Jewish grandparent and be a practicing Jew. This does mean that a messianic jew, even if both his parents were Jews, forfeits his right to live in Israel by becoming Christian. Essentially, this means that the Jews still want to remove the presence of the church and have not resolved to accept that a Christian can even be a Jew or participate in Israel.

This is one of many issues I have with Christian Zionists that they don’t seem able to address. If Israel is about the Jews returning to their homeland, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, why is a Christian jew excluded?

So the Jews are building a competing theocracy within the area and this is creating conflict. Both sides can say they don’t discriminate, but they clearly do in order to maintain control over the area through religious laws.

It really disturbs me that the church supports this conflict increasing when the church is why theocratic government doesn’t work anymore.

Jesus is the reason theocracy cannot work anymore, but we seem to be sitting back watching this eating popcorn as though it were an action movie.

I was reading a letter by Marcus Aurelius on his experience with the Christian Church. He said:
"Having then examined my own position, and my host, with respect to the vast mass of barbarians and of the enemy, I quickly betook myself to prayer to the gods of my country. But being disregarded by them, I summoned those who among us go by the name of Christians. And having made inquiry, I discovered a great number and vast host of them, and raged against them, which was by no means becoming; for afterwards I learned their power. Wherefore they began the battle, not by preparing weapons, nor arms, nor bugles; for such preparation is hateful to them, on account of the God they bear about in their conscience. Therefore it is probable that those whom we suppose to be atheists, have God as their ruling power entrenched in their conscience. For having cast themselves on the ground, they prayed not only for me, but also for the whole army as it stood, that they might be delivered from the present thirst and famine. For during five days we had got no water, because there was none; for we were in the heart of Germany, and in the enemy’s territory. And simultaneously with their casting themselves on the ground, and praying to God (a God of whom I am ignorant), water poured from heaven, upon us most refreshingly cool, but upon the enemies of Rome a withering1920 hail. And immediately we recognised the presence of God following on the prayer-a God unconquerable and indestructible. Founding upon this, then, let us pardon such as are Christians, lest they pray for and obtain such a weapon against ourselves."http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxxi.html

This is how we should be defending ourselves and this is kind of how I picture the witnesses intervention in the future.
 





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#8
It sounds to me like a passive/aggressive Christian, hiding behind a nuclear-armed Jew, to wage jewhad and thus fulfill an apocalyptic agenda.
I think someone already pointed it out but it always seems like it's only the Protestants that support Israel and Zionism. A large chunk of my family consist of Orthodox Christians but they don't have this unwavering support for Israel and the conversations we have are always so interesting and exciting. The same can't be said when discussing with Protestants.
 





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#9
My main problem with Christian Zionism is that it is a very superstitious approach to scripture. The depth of the study is very limited and a very fairy tale like picture is created because of this.

It is like Christian Zionism is a mobile museum where the Christians are tourists and meeting a jew is like meeting a decendent of Moses they want to take a picture with. It is this way of creating this sort of celebrity.

In reality, what we need here pretty soon is something like the prophets to come snap the church out of this passive spectator role. The Bible has two places where I think people will have a wake up call. There are the thunders that were sealed and no one know what they mean and the two witnesses.

I think more than one group is going to be disappointed when these things start happening because everyone wants to be right at the moment, but they are all defending theocracy.

As Christians, we know that his kingdom is not of this world. I don’t know why the church isn’t defending this instead of defending the theocracy of Israel.

To be an Israeli citizen you have to have a Jewish grandparent and be a practicing Jew. This does mean that a messianic jew, even if both his parents were Jews, forfeits his right to live in Israel by becoming Christian. Essentially, this means that the Jews still want to remove the presence of the church and have not resolved to accept that a Christian can even be a Jew or participate in Israel.

This is one of many issues I have with Christian Zionists that they don’t seem able to address. If Israel is about the Jews returning to their homeland, and being Jewish is an ethnicity, why is a Christian jew excluded?

So the Jews are building a competing theocracy within the area and this is creating conflict. Both sides can say they don’t discriminate, but they clearly do in order to maintain control over the area through religious laws.

It really disturbs me that the church supports this conflict increasing when the church is why theocratic government doesn’t work anymore.

Jesus is the reason theocracy cannot work anymore, but we seem to be sitting back watching this eating popcorn as though it were an action movie.

I was reading a letter by Marcus Aurelius on his experience with the Christian Church. He said:
"Having then examined my own position, and my host, with respect to the vast mass of barbarians and of the enemy, I quickly betook myself to prayer to the gods of my country. But being disregarded by them, I summoned those who among us go by the name of Christians. And having made inquiry, I discovered a great number and vast host of them, and raged against them, which was by no means becoming; for afterwards I learned their power. Wherefore they began the battle, not by preparing weapons, nor arms, nor bugles; for such preparation is hateful to them, on account of the God they bear about in their conscience. Therefore it is probable that those whom we suppose to be atheists, have God as their ruling power entrenched in their conscience. For having cast themselves on the ground, they prayed not only for me, but also for the whole army as it stood, that they might be delivered from the present thirst and famine. For during five days we had got no water, because there was none; for we were in the heart of Germany, and in the enemy’s territory. And simultaneously with their casting themselves on the ground, and praying to God (a God of whom I am ignorant), water poured from heaven, upon us most refreshingly cool, but upon the enemies of Rome a withering1920 hail. And immediately we recognised the presence of God following on the prayer-a God unconquerable and indestructible. Founding upon this, then, let us pardon such as are Christians, lest they pray for and obtain such a weapon against ourselves."http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxxi.html

This is how we should be defending ourselves and this is kind of how I picture the witnesses intervention in the future.
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! I think that’s why Christians should be careful to not reject Israel for you know those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed? Israel is God’s chosen people and He is not done with her!
 





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#10
I also think that it would be nice to discuss the connection between the Old Testament references to the gathering of Israel with the New Testament references to the Kingdom of God. I think that the gathering of Israel is synonymous with the Kingdom of God and that we are deceiving ourselves by considering this manifestation of the state of Israel as the fulfillment of prophecy.

In reality, there is not one prophecy for the Jews and one prophecy for the church. They are one in the same prophecy. This would explain why Israel is not mentioned in the book of Revelation and the kingdom of God was not mentioned by the prophets because it was not something that could be understood by them yet. Although, they are one in the same. There is one body, which could be called the Kingdom of God or Israel.

This is not to be confused with the accusation that the church believes in the heresy of a "spiritual Israel" as opposed to a physical Israel. It is just a reality that the book of Revelation never mentions a restoration of Israel taking place and most of the New Testament doesn't mention Israel at all. However, it mentions the kingdom of God many times, but I really think the church is intimidated by the Jews sometimes so that we don't defend this possibility. We have been very intimidated and manipulated by the Jews over the years to see the Bible according to their desire to reject Jesus as the Messiah. This is unfortunate because in some ways it does mean that the church is responsible for the way the prophecy says the end will come.

We should also recognize that the end isn't the way God wants it to be. The end is evidence of a repeating phenomenon of being turned over to stubbornness and the willingness to sin. The end is something God does not prevent a man from creating for himself. So we really shouldn't ever celebrate something that could clearly be prevented at any time by repenting and turning to God.

"So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels." (Psalms 81:12).

If this is why the Jews are returning to the land, then this is not a good thing to support.
 





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#11
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! I think that’s why Christians should be careful to not reject Israel for you know those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed? Israel is God’s chosen people and He is not done with her!
Lisa, we are anything but blessed for helping Israel. If anything, we have been cursed because of it. We presently have a Muslim population thinking that if they can overtake the US, then they will be able to stop the creation of Israel through their control of the US and the Jewish Zionists are letting and encouraging this to happen with most media outlets sympathizing with the Muslim communities as though they were victims and not the other side of the Zionist coin.

The Jewish Zionists won't care about the US once they have been able to secure Israel because we have a large Christian population in the same way they won't consider a Jewish Christian a citizen whether both of their parents were Jews. Christianity and the authority of the church is something that has made the Jewish community angry for many hundreds of years. It is something they will gladly try to take away as though the church never deserved it to begin with. Most people don't want to accept that the Jews are a people who will willingly persecute the church in many cases.

We are letting persecution of Christian return to our country by encouraging what we know Jesus abolished which is a theocratic government. It is ridiculous that after years of suffering persecution till we were able to exist with the freedom we have in the US, that we would aren't smart enough to defend this privilege rather than just give it to the dogs to trample.

We have authority in the US that the Jews do not have on their own and they are only taking advantage of us because of it.
 





Vytas

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#12
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! I think that’s why Christians should be careful to not reject Israel for you know those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed? Israel is God’s chosen people and He is not done with her!
Who are God's people You think it's jews? You think God cares about genealogy? ...Oh please go read some romans would you?
 





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#13
I also think that it would be nice to discuss the connection between the Old Testament references to the gathering of Israel with the New Testament references to the Kingdom of God. I think that the gathering of Israel is synonymous with the Kingdom of God and that we are deceiving ourselves by considering this manifestation of the state of Israel as the fulfillment of prophecy.

In reality, there is not one prophecy for the Jews and one prophecy for the church. They are one in the same prophecy. This would explain why Israel is not mentioned in the book of Revelation and the kingdom of God was not mentioned by the prophets because it was not something that could be understood by them yet. Although, they are one in the same. There is one body, which could be called the Kingdom of God or Israel.

This is not to be confused with the accusation that the church believes in the heresy of a "spiritual Israel" as opposed to a physical Israel. It is just a reality that the book of Revelation never mentions a restoration of Israel taking place and most of the New Testament doesn't mention Israel at all. However, it mentions the kingdom of God many times, but I really think the church is intimidated by the Jews sometimes so that we don't defend this possibility. We have been very intimidated and manipulated by the Jews over the years to see the Bible according to their desire to reject Jesus as the Messiah. This is unfortunate because in some ways it does mean that the church is responsible for the way the prophecy says the end will come.

We should also recognize that the end isn't the way God wants it to be. The end is evidence of a repeating phenomenon of being turned over to stubbornness and the willingness to sin. The end is something God does not prevent a man from creating for himself. So we really shouldn't ever celebrate something that could clearly be prevented at any time by repenting and turning to God.

"So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels." (Psalms 81:12).

If this is why the Jews are returning to the land, then this is not a good thing to support.
The Jews returning to the land is in relation to prophecy. How else would sacrifices be reinstated if the Jews weren’t in their land? If you read Romans, then you will see that we are only grafted in to the olive tree, we aren’t the olive tree itself, that is Israel. God has an everlasting covenant with Israel and He has worked with them since that covenant to get them to see who He is even when at times the fell into unbelief. He was still their God, He was still dealing with His people and nothing has changed that, not even their current unbelief.
 





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#14
Who are God's people You think it's jews? You think God cares about genealogy? ...Oh please go read some romans would you?
I will establish My covenant betweenMe and you and your descendants after you thourhgtout their generation for an evelasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. Genesis 17:7
Says it all really don’t ya think Vytas?
 





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#15
I was reading a letter by Marcus Aurelius on his experience with the Christian Church. He said: "Having then examined my own position, and my host, with respect to the vast mass of barbarians and of the enemy, I quickly betook myself to prayer to the gods of my country. But being disregarded by them, I summoned those who among us go by the name of Christians. And having made inquiry, I discovered a great number and vast host of them, and raged against them, which was by no means becoming; for afterwards I learned their power. Wherefore they began the battle, not by preparing weapons, nor arms, nor bugles; for such preparation is hateful to them, on account of the God they bear about in their conscience. Therefore it is probable that those whom we suppose to be atheists, have God as their ruling power entrenched in their conscience. For having cast themselves on the ground, they prayed not only for me, but also for the whole army as it stood, that they might be delivered from the present thirst and famine. For during five days we had got no water, because there was none; for we were in the heart of Germany, and in the enemy’s territory. And simultaneously with their casting themselves on the ground, and praying to God (a God of whom I am ignorant), water poured from heaven, upon us most refreshingly cool, but upon the enemies of Rome a withering1920 hail. And immediately we recognised the presence of God following on the prayer-a God unconquerable and indestructible. Founding upon this, then, let us pardon such as are Christians, lest they pray for and obtain such a weapon against ourselves."http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxxi.html

This is how we should be defending ourselves and this is kind of how I picture the witnesses intervention in the future.
Fascinating! Thank you. It reminded me of this, which, as I understand, was the driving Jewish credo up until the time that Herzl, Rothschild and others invented Zionism:

"Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."
Zacharia 4:6
 





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#16
The Jews returning to the land is in relation to prophecy. How else would sacrifices be reinstated if the Jews weren’t in their land? If you read Romans, then you will see that we are only grafted in to the olive tree, we aren’t the olive tree itself, that is Israel. God has an everlasting covenant with Israel and He has worked with them since that covenant to get them to see who He is even when at times the fell into unbelief. He was still their God, He was still dealing with His people and nothing has changed that, not even their current unbelief.
Well okay, but is that a good thing or a bad thing. Is it wise to say that this is God's will because he has shown favor; or, that this is God's will because they have been given over to the stubbornness of their own hearts instead?

If they reinstitute the sacrifice, is this an act of obedience or disobedience?

I would say it is an act of disobedience. Therefore, there will never be a day that I support this course of action when there are alternatives that could have been considered and accomplished instead that would have presented a better witness to the world.
 





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#17
I will establish My covenant betweenMe and you and your descendants after you thourhgtout their generation for an evelasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. Genesis 17:7
Says it all really don’t ya think Vytas?
You quote the OT when it's convenient but then when it's not convenient you try to pretend like it doesn't exist lol.
 





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#18
Lisa, we are anything but blessed for helping Israel. If anything, we have been cursed because of it. We presently have a Muslim population thinking that if they can overtake the US, then they will be able to stop the creation of Israel through their control of the US and the Jewish Zionists are letting and encouraging this to happen with most media outlets sympathizing with the Muslim communities as though they were victims and not the other side of the Zionist coin.

The Jewish Zionists won't care about the US once they have been able to secure Israel because we have a large Christian population in the same way they won't consider a Jewish Christian a citizen whether both of their parents were Jews. Christianity and the authority of the church is something that has made the Jewish community angry for many hundreds of years. It is something they will gladly try to take away as though the church never deserved it to begin with. Most people don't want to accept that the Jews are a people who will willingly persecute the church in many cases.

We are letting persecution of Christian return to our country by encouraging what we know Jesus abolished which is a theocratic government. It is ridiculous that after years of suffering persecution till we were able to exist with the freedom we have in the US, that we would aren't smart enough to defend this privilege rather than just give it to the dogs to trample.

We have authority in the US that the Jews do not have on their own and they are only taking advantage of us because of it.
You are thinking like a human, but God’s plans are more than we can even understand. His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are higher than ours. The Bible clearly shows that when you read it and try to figure out why God does what He does.

What kind of blessings do you think God can bestow on a nation who would openly acknowledge His people? Are God’s blessings like the ones we think of, or are His blessings different? I would still take His blessings and bless His people whether that means enmity with the world. Being a Christian will soon turn into the same enmity the world has with the Jews anyway, according to scripture. The Christian martyrs in the book of Revelation tells us that.

Regarding the muslims...they want to overtake the whole world, if you’re not a muslim then your are either dead or paying the tax..that’s what they want throughout the world. Living to not upset them is futile, they live to be upset..that’s what gives them the power of fear and that will not change.

The Jews are never going to rest easy, the cup of reeling and all, but they might not always have the support of the US, the next president could take this all away. All nations are reported to be against Israel
 





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#19
Well okay, but is that a good thing or a bad thing. Is it wise to say that this is God's will because he has shown favor; or, that this is God's will because they have been given over to the stubbornness of their own hearts instead?

If they reinstitute the sacrifice, is this an act of obedience or disobedience?

I would say it is an act of disobedience. Therefore, there will never be a day that I support this course of action when there are alternatives that could have been considered and accomplished instead that would have presented a better witness to the world.
I’d say the reinstatement of sacrifices is prophetic more than anything. Daniel wrote about the sacrifices and said that in the middle they would be stopped and then the abomination of desolation that lands us right in Revelations. So, you are talking about God’s plan and timeline here. And God’s plan to bring Israel back into relationship with Himself. You don’t have to approve it.
 





Vytas

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#20
I will establish My covenant betweenMe and you and your descendants after you thourhgtout their generation for an evelasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. Genesis 17:7
Says it all really don’t ya think Vytas?
And there is LITERALY ZERO chance anyone of earth doesn't have blood of Abraham in his veins. But thats not even the point... physical connection, blood doesn't matter anymore...Jew is not the one who is circumcised, if anything it's a fake jew...Real Jews are not those who have jew passport .But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly