Once Saved Always Saved?

[TokiEl]

Just so you know, I believe the following as an axiom for Christian living:-

Galatians 5

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Psss i plan to use this verse as my sole defense when i go on whoring every other weekend ; - ) L0L

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Psss i plan to use this verse as my sole defense when i go on whoring every other weekend ; - ) L0L

You have to ask the question on the way to the brothel "Is the Spirit truly leading me here" ;-)

I would suggest that those who know the leading of the spirit understand the words of Jeremiah 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Daciple]

So what are we saved from? What is salvation?

We are saved from the Spiritual Death we all have the moment we come to know our guilt before God and our Sin. We are Born Again, the Spiritual Man that died when we came to know our Sins, is created Anew and we are Resurrected.

We are also saved from the 2nd Death, which is placement in Hell. That is what Salvation is and from what we are Saved...

And in case one doesnt understand what I mean by the 1st Death is Spiritual Death, I referrer you to Adam and Eve:

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When they ate of the tree, in that day, they died. Not a literal death but a Spiritual Death, and just as when we come to understand our Sin, we too Die that 1st and Spiritual Death...

Predestination is confusing because the idea of salvation is often confused with confession. Salvation is what comes with the resurrection. Salvation is always always always to be saved-from-death.

So I dont declare predestination in the aspect that God picks and choose people from before time to save and then chooses to send everyone else to Hell. Predestination, the Elect, ect is simply those who God in His Foreknowledge of all choices and aspects of mens Free Will, knew which ones would accept the Gospel of their own Free Will.

Those of us who have Repented and come to Salvation have done so of our own Free Will, and God knowing all things knew we would make these choices and thus we are considered the Elect, those who were Predestined for Salvation...

And in your mind is Salvation only have to do with a Physical Resurrection?

I dont think most people understand the 1st Resurrection correctly, it is NOT the Resurrection of the dead. Jesus tells us exactly WHO the 1st Resurrection is:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus is the 1st Resurrection and everyone who believes on Him, goes from Spiritual Death unto Spiritual Life and partakes with HIS Resurrection. You are right to say that Salvation and Resurrection are together, it is incorrect to believe that Resurrection occurs in the future. It took place they day you believed in Christ for Salvation..

Being Born Again aka being Saved, is all about the Spirit and not the Flesh, it has nothing to do with the Future it is all about being Born of the Spirit and that takes place now:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

To be unsaved would be to inherit an eternal-immortal body, and then ... die.

To be unsaved, is to remain Spiritually Dead, and then as you said be given that immortal body, that is then thrown into Hell. And if we look at all the verses concerning Salvation, they are almost all speaking of a PAST Event, not a Future Event such as:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Of course we can quote dozens more but its plainly clear in Scripture that this is a PAST Event, it has already taken place and is not something that takes place in the Future. We are Born Again in Spirit at the time of Conversion, we are Resurrected from Death unto Life at that time, we have our Old Man die and our New Man Born.

Salvation is not a process, it is not an End Event, it is a Past Event that takes place the day one Repents and Believe and Accepts Christ as Lord and Savior...

Sanctification is the process, that is the transformation the Spirit works in us to become more and more like Christ until we receive our New Bodies that are Perfect and created to inherit the New Heaven and Earth. Sanctification is a process and the End Event...

 

[TokiEl]

You have to ask the question on the way to the brothel "Is the Spirit truly leading me here" ;-)

I would suggest that those who know the leading of the spirit understand the words of Jeremiah 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Shoot ! Oh well back to the drawing board. L0L

 

[Daciple]

Claire Daciple RedSky and all.

Are you sure you are not one of those guys ?

Matthew 7 22"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

I mean they sure seemed sure about their salvation.


Now i don't know who is saved or not but time will tell right.

Patience ?

One gotta do something.

And that something they did in His name.

Wonderful works.

Miracles healing exorcism prophesying.

I know Red already showed what mattered here, you are saying look at what they did, what they did cant save them. How many people do you know that are out here casting out Devils in the name of Jesus but dont actually believe in Jesus?

I can turn on the TV and see dozens of them.

This is verse is about those who claim their WORKS are what should bring Salvation, Jesus tells them otherwise, why? Because it is not Works (something you seem obsessed with for Justification) that brings Salvation or Justification it is FAITH and FAITH Alone...

 

[Daciple]

No Man Can Pluck Out

Let us look at the text which has probably been quoted more than any other to support the doctrine of eternal security. Jesus said, "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28, 29.

What a tremendous promise this should be for every trusting child of God! At first glance, it does seem to guarantee some sort of immunity against spiritual loss, but we have not read the entire text. Verse 27 is an integral part of the thought, and it lays down a specific condition for the fulfilment of the promise in verses 28 and 29. "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life." Please notice that it is only God's true followers who nestle safely in His protecting hand. He gives eternal life only to the faithful sheep who hear and follow Him. It is this hearing and following which provides immunity against being plucked away by the devil or his agents. The protection is from enemies without who seek to carry off the sheep, but not from unfaithfulness of the sheep who might choose not to follow any longer. No one can pluck them out of the Father's hand, but they may choose to jump out at any time. God never even hints that He will interfere with the freedom of choice of His followers. Christians can choose to be lost just as surely as sinners can choose to be saved.

Just think how useless would be all the hundreds of biblical warnings against apostasy if it were impossible to experience it. Why would the Spirit have led Paul, Peter, and all the others to pen such solemn threats and admonitions against eternal loss if they were in no danger of suffering it? And if it is true that the "once saved" are eternally secure, surely the devil would know it. Therefore, he would never waste any time on believers, knowing how impossible it would be to cause them to be lost. Yet, we all know by experience that Satan works even harder to pull away the saints from following Christ.

We have to conclude that salvation does not consist of a single, irrevocable commitment, whether past or present. Being saved is the experience of living Christ's own life by divine imputation and impartation. It is never a reality except in continual, dynamic relationship with Jesus, the source of eternal life. Being saved must be spoken of in all three tenses of time in order to be completely biblical. It has happened, it is happening, and it will happen.

More copy and pasting, no one want to talk with Joe Crews https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/17/t/can-a-saved-man-choose-to-be-lost-

Do you have even one single thought of your own?

 

[Daciple]

What Does It Mean for the Christian to Leave His "First Love"?

"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:4, 5, emphasis added.

For the Christian to leave his first love, is to backslide, to fall away, to leave the Lord and His service, and to go over to the service of sin, Satan and the world. The Lord calls upon all such to repent and do their first works (the fruits of love), or else - else what? "I will take thy candlestick out of his place." This is an ultimatum from the Lord. If the sinner responds, repents, returns to his first love, and does his first works, all is well and good - he will be saved. But it is his to choose. If he does not do this, his light is removed, goes out, and the backslider is lost.

Does the Backslider Always Return to the Lord Before Death?

No, far from it. That was the case of the first king of Israel, Saul. It is written of Saul that he was "turned into another man." "And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be TURNED INTO ANOTHER MAN." 1 Samuel 10:6 emphasis added. Yet Saul backslid from his high and exalted position, disobeyed the Lord, and at last took his own life (1 Samuel 31:1-6). It cannot be said in this case that Saul was not converted, because God says that he was. Yet, he took his own life with no opportunity of repentance.

Anyone who says any different is rejecting the word of God.

Even more copy and pasting, again no one wants to talk with Joe Crews

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/17/t/can-a-saved-man-choose-to-be-lost-

I want to talk to Phipps, honestly you are going to end up causing everyone to ignore everything you post because we all are going to realize that you are simply parroting Amazing Facts and not capable of having a discussion of your own thoughts and ideas.

I am already just about there, I am trying tho brother, I would love to talk to and get to know you, but more and more of this copy pasting makes me think you have nothing of substance of yourself to offer to the boards...

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Do not forget beloved that to believe is to comply and to hear is to do.

Believing simply means to accept something as truth.

How does “hear”=to do?

 

[TokiEl]

@TokiEl

Matthew 7 22" Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

In response to your question, I found the article below very relevant. I won't copy and paste it but for anyone who has read the passage above and doubted their salvation, I recommend reading the article below:-

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/matthew/som/7_21-23.htm

Ahem so i read it all and not just half way through and the article which is too long by the way took a turn for the worse so to speak... it stumbled.

The author slip and fell... and i'm not sure if he is back up again.

Bubble gum.

It's a matter of soul life and death to obey the commandments of God ! The Ten Commandments must be obeyed !

We who broke the Law do now uphold the Law.

That is not bubble gum.

This is the truth.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ahem so i read it all and not just half way through and the article which is too long by the way took a turn for the worse so to speak... it stumbled.

The author slip and fell... and i'm not sure if he is back up again.

Bubble gum.

It's a matter of soul life and death to obey the commandments of God ! Ten Ten Commandments must be obeyed !

We who broke the Law do now uphold the Law.

That is not bubble gum.

This is the truth.

More bubblegum from Paul in Romans 6?

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[TokiEl]

Believing simply means to accept something as truth.

Believe comply obey.

How does “hear”=to do?

Hear and do.


If you believe Him you will comply.

If you love Him you will obey.

If you hear Him you will do.


Isn't it beautiful ?

 

[TokiEl]

More bubblegum from Paul in Romans 6?

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

See God is so ambiguous or Paul in this case.

Because Paul in Romans 3 wrote...

Romans 3 31"Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? By no means! Instead, we uphold the Law."

There are obviously ammo for both sides in this cosmic controversy... and we've read about both the Devil and the Christ quoting the Scriptures. (Do you know why i wrote Christ last... because He is the Champ).

So both sides are quoting the Scriptures !

O boy be very careful who we listen to... for our doctrine can come from the Devil's pen.

O boy o boy.

 

[gcha8e]

I posted straight scripture with no interpretation. The fact that you felt a need to post a rebuttal says a lot.

What does it say? Reading between the lines can be dicey, either scripturally, or with Todd's writings

interpretation is necessary, isn't it?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

See God is so ambiguous or Paul in this case.

Because Paul in Romans 3 wrote...

Romans 3 31"Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? By no means! Instead, we uphold the Law."

There are obviously ammo for both sides in this cosmic controversy... and we've read about both the Devil and the Christ quoting the Scriptures. (Do you know why i wrote Christ last... because He is the Champ).

So both sides are quoting the Scriptures !

O boy be very careful who we listen to... for our doctrine can come from the Devil's pen.

O boy o boy.

I don't know if you are in a relationship @TokiEl but as I see it, love changes everything. There may be ten things my wife likes me to remember to do, but beyond that is the spirit in which I do them. An inexact analogy but I believe motivation and relationship are the key.

I have no interest in sinning - it's not what I'm about any more.

 

[gcha8e]

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

in the citation of Romans 6, what is the interpretation?

I think that "eternal" and "everlasting life" are the exact equivalent to salvation, do you agree?

But stop to think what it means when it says: IN THE END everlasting life. The end of what?

 

[TokiEl]

I don't know if you are in a relationship @TokiEl but as I see it, love changes everything. There may be ten things my wife likes me to remember to do, but beyond that is the spirit in which I do them. An inexact analogy but I believe motivation and relationship are the key.

I have no interest in sinning - it's not what I'm about any more.

But will we obey the Law or not ?

You don't have to answer...but i think i like my chances if found also obeying the Law.

I mean it cannot hurt.


(Of course i'm not in a relationship... you think anyone would put up with me ?)

 

[gcha8e]

We are saved from the Spiritual Death we all have the moment we come to know our guilt before God and our Sin. We are Born Again, the Spiritual Man that died when we came to know our Sins, is created Anew and we are Resurrected.

Yeah, I think that's wrong. You are describing conversion and/or repentance. While this is supremely important, it isn't what the term Salvation means.

Paul often attributes our present state as "being saved" or even "are-being-saved" it is a present tense thing, but not a past tense thing. And of course, this is a Greek verb thing. It is correctly "we are saved by Grace" not "we have been saved".

We are also saved from the 2nd Death, which is placement in Hell. That is what Salvation is and from what we are Saved...

And in case one doesnt understand what I mean by the 1st Death is Spiritual Death, I referrer you to Adam and Eve:

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When they ate of the tree, in that day, they died. Not a literal death but a Spiritual Death, and just as when we come to understand our Sin, we too Die that 1st and Spiritual Death...

I think that's wrong as well, I think the issue of death from this account is expressly physical. I will agree that there are metaphorical descriptions of our spiritual state as either dead or alive, just as God also attributes to us spiritual attributes of being able to "hear" spiritually or "see" spiritually.

That doesn't equate to a theology that says we have regenerated spirituality after confession. (second spiritual birth).

While I understand that theology I no longer agree with it because it is often said by those supporting predestination that it is a precondition of repentance. So the repentance is somehow our choice, yet, we were not able to do it unless first we are spiritually reborn first.... Or wait, did I get it wrong, was it repentance the leads to spiritual rebirth? Hmmmm.... this doesn't work either way.

So I dont declare predestination in the aspect that God picks and choose people from before time to save and then chooses to send everyone else to Hell. Predestination, the Elect, ect is simply those who God in His Foreknowledge of all choices and aspects of mens Free Will, knew which ones would accept the Gospel of their own Free Will.

Right, of course not.

Those of us who have Repented and come to Salvation have done so of our own Free Will, and God knowing all things knew we would make these choices and thus we are considered the Elect, those who were Predestined for Salvation...

This again, doesn't work for me. God, in creating creatures with foreknowledge of their choices, is the causation of those choices. What you describe is a scripted universe. I believe God set the world in motion and let the wild forces of nature take their course. Some of those natural forces are the "weeds" and some are the "wheat". Which is which is not explicitly predetermined. But God clearly knows what you are when you're born.

And in your mind is Salvation only have to do with a Physical Resurrection?

Yes.

I dont think most people understand the 1st Resurrection correctly, it is NOT the Resurrection of the dead. Jesus tells us exactly WHO the 1st Resurrection is:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

What is the context of this verse? Isn't this the story of Lazarus being raised? What was Jesus teaching Martha here?

Jesus is the 1st Resurrection and everyone who believes on Him, goes from Spiritual Death unto Spiritual Life and partakes with HIS Resurrection. You are right to say that Salvation and Resurrection are together, it is incorrect to believe that Resurrection occurs in the future. It took place they day you believed in Christ for Salvation..

Being Born Again aka being Saved, is all about the Spirit and not the Flesh, it has nothing to do with the Future it is all about being Born of the Spirit and that takes place now:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

To be unsaved, is to remain Spiritually Dead, and then as you said be given that immortal body, that is then thrown into Hell. And if we look at all the verses concerning Salvation, they are almost all speaking of a PAST Event, not a Future Event such as:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Of course we can quote dozens more but its plainly clear in Scripture that this is a PAST Event, it has already taken place and is not something that takes place in the Future. We are Born Again in Spirit at the time of Conversion, we are Resurrected from Death unto Life at that time, we have our Old Man die and our New Man Born.

In which of the verses is the Greek term for salvation used? I don't see it.

Salvation is not a process, it is not an End Event, it is a Past Event that takes place the day one Repents and Believe and Accepts Christ as Lord and Savior...

Sanctification is the process, that is the transformation the Spirit works in us to become more and more like Christ until we receive our New Bodies that are Perfect and created to inherit the New Heaven and Earth. Sanctification is a process and the End Event...

Not the end ? But Romans 6:22-23 says it is in the end. Please elaborate what "the end" means in Romans 6.

 

[Daciple]

Yeah, I think that's wrong. You are describing conversion and/or repentance. While this is supremely important, it isn't what the term Salvation means.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I would say that the Bible is very explicit on what constitutes Salvation and I dont see any Scriptural Support for your idea of what encompasses Salvation. At least I havent seen you support anything via Scripture for your ideologies, would you mind providing Scripture which evidences your idea of what constitutes Salvation.

Here are more Scriptures that support the fact that Salvation is grated at Conversion/Repentance and is Spiritual and not Physical and takes place in the past and not a future event:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Corth 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Eph 6;17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Phil 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

1 Corth 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

2 Corth 2:For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

2 Tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

When we confess it is THEN we are Saved...

Now is the day of Salvation...

We hold in our possession NOW the Helmet of Salvation and are commanded to put it on, it is not something given in the Future...

When people terrorize us for our Faith, it is the evidence of their perdition but our Salvation, which we have now...

The preaching of the Cross, it is foolishness to the Lost, however to us who ARE already Saved, it is the Power of God...

We ARE Saved by the preaching of the Cross...

We who ARE Saved are a sweet smelling Savor to God...

By His Mercy He HAS Saved us...

All of these verses allude, point, or directly state that Salvation is something we now posses, it is already granted to us and not a Future Event. These verses must be included in ones ideal in what Salvation is, so while we can indeed find verses that speak of a continuing process ( which is called Sanctification) and an end point where Sanctification is perfected in the New Heavens and Earth for believers, we can not reject and ignore the fact that Salvation is still granted at the moment one is Born Again...

Paul often attributes our present state as "being saved" or even "are-being-saved" it is a present tense thing, but not a past tense thing. And of course, this is a Greek verb thing. It is correctly "we are saved by Grace" not "we have been saved".

Well I have just quoted many Scriptures that either declare we posses it now, or it is in past tense, you can ignore these if you would like but they still exist. I personally wont ignore them so I accept what the Scriptures state, we are Born Again at the time of accepting Christ and receive Salvation, then begins the process of transforming us into the image of Christ which again is called Sanctification and then ends in the Perfect State where we have Perfect Bodies and are in the same image of Christ which is in the New Heaven and New Earth.

There are 3 parts which I believe people either dont understand, or conflate with one another concerning Salvation and these 3 are:

1) Justification, that is what is our standing before God, how are we Justified before Him. If you are NOT saved, if you have not accepted Salvation then you are NEVER Justified before Him. The Second you are grated Salvation, which is by Faith thru Grace in Christ and His Work and none of your own, you are immediately Justified before God. God now at that moment grants you reconciliation and the exact full standing as Christ before Him. There is no waiting, or working or anything else at all that is needed or in the future, it is instant and it is forever. It is not based on anything we do or dont do, it is based 100% solely on Christ and whether or not we believe on Him.

2) Sanctification, that is the cleansing out of the Old Man and the outward process of showing the internal Spiritual Changes that happens when someone is Saved or Born Again. That is the continual on going work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as He forms and shapes us into the image of Christ. This is the aspect you keep misconstruing with the idea that Salvation is on going. ONLY those who ARE or HAVE BEEN Saved have this Sanctification Process happen, begin and continue in their lives. If you dont HAVE Salvation then you wont have any work of Sanctification...

3) Perfection, that is the end state and fullness of the transformation that God started in us and that He will perform. It occurs when we are given our New Bodies that are in the likeness of Christs Resurrected Body, which was both Spiritual and Physical, the merging of the 2, and it is granted at the time of or immediately before being ushered into the New Heavens and New Earth. The New Heavens and New Earth are the end state of Perfection and combination of the Physical and Spiritual. It is why the Bible states that Flesh and Blood can not inherit the Kingdom, or enter into the New Heaven and New Earth. This Physical Resurrection people seem so obsessed with isnt just Physical, it is the Perfect merging of a Physical with the Spiritual...

Salvation is grated by Faith thru Grace at the time one Repents and Believes, it starts the Sanctification Process and Ends in the Perfected State where we are given a Body to match the Perfect Spiritual Man that was created at the time of Salvation, then we enter into the New Heavens and New Earth to be with God forever...

I think that's wrong as well, I think the issue of death from this account is expressly physical.

Then I would say you are ignoring clear Scripture that tells us we are Dead Spiritually and then made Alive in Christ Spiritually now. I would say that you are confused on what the 1st Resurrection is, as I was until I began to study it apart from how I was told to think of it growing up. You know where you are told the 1st Resurrection is the Physical Resurrection at Christs 2nd Coming, it is not, the 1st Resurrection is Christ and we all partake in His Resurrection when we Repent and Believe on Him for Salvation and we are Spiritually Resurrected...

I will agree that there are metaphorical descriptions of our spiritual state as either dead or alive, just as God also attributes to us spiritual attributes of being able to "hear" spiritually or "see" spiritually.

That doesn't equate to a theology that says we have regenerated spirituality after confession. (second spiritual birth).

Actually it does, and I believe you are purposefully conflating the hear or see with the actual alive and dead. You are DEAD in your Sins this is plain Bible.

Eph 2:And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We WERE Dead in Sin, we WERE Crucified with Christ and then we WERE made Alive, quickened, to God by Christ and His Resurrection. From all of these accounts they are all speaking of Spiritual Death and not Physical and this is basic Christian Theology...

While I understand that theology I no longer agree with it because it is often said by those supporting predestination that it is a precondition of repentance. So the repentance is somehow our choice, yet, we were not able to do it unless first we are spiritually reborn first.... Or wait, did I get it wrong, was it repentance the leads to spiritual rebirth? Hmmmm.... this doesn't work either way.

Well now you are choosing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You are going to throw out very clear, very basic Christian Theology that has stood since the inception of the Church because of a debate on Predestination? Calvinsim is wrong on almost every account, just throw that out, dont throw out the clear basic Christian Theology on Salvation over peoples opinion on when or how someone received Salvation...

This again, doesn't work for me. God, in creating creatures with foreknowledge of their choices, is the causation of those choices.

Absolutely not, He is not the causation of those choices just as I am NOT the cause of the choice of my child to eat a candy bar simply because I leave one out. If I leave one out and know she will eat it but I tell her not to, it is in the end HER choice to eat it or not, I didnt force her to eat the candy bar.

God knew Adam and Eve would eat of the Tree, God knew if He gave men freewill at some point they would exercise it and choose against Him. He is NOT the causation of the choices men would and do create. I have the free will everyday to accept or reject Gods will in my life, and never once is He responsible for my choice to reject or disobey Him, even tho He knows each time I will...

What you describe is a scripted universe.

No it isnt, I dont think you understand the universe I am describing whatsoever. I am saying God is NOT making everyone do everything He wants like we are all little Robots. I am saying that God of course KNOWS EVERYTHING, He knows every choice I will make and He knows every choice I wont make, and He even knows every outcome to every choice I do or dont, would or wouldnt make (Something called Middle Knowledge look it up) and He being infinitely powerful is able to complete His Sovereign Will and outcome while allowing Men to have complete and total Free Will.

The Scripted Universe is the Universe created in Calvinism, I reject that fully. I also reject some chaotic universe where God is not able to control or knows what or how things are going to happen, that is a weak and pathetic God if that is the case.

No I agree with a God that grants men Free Will, but is still Sovereign and is able to have His will done while accounting and allowing the complete and total Free Will of Men...

I believe God set the world in motion and let the wild forces of nature take their course. Some of those natural forces are the "weeds" and some are the "wheat". Which is which is not explicitly predetermined. But God clearly knows what you are when you're born.

Well it sound to me like the God you believe in is at the Mercy of His own Creation and doesnt really have control of anything. Maybe He is hoping everything might work out in the end?

Predetermination is simply God knowing the choices His Creation is going to make because He is God, God doesnt force anyone to believe or not to believe to be wheat or tares, but before time existed He knew who would and who wouldnt accept Him. The term Elect is to signify those who on their own Free Will God KNEW before time would accept Him of their own Free Will...

The God you describe seems not to know everything, that He is at the Mercy of Time, which He created, and doesnt know until you come into existence if you will be the Wheat or the Tare. I reject that, God knew me before I was conceived, the Bible tells me this plainly...

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God knew me before I was conceived and He sanctified me before I was Born, He has done this for all people, it is now our choice to accept the Sanctification He set up for us or not, and that is by accepting or rejecting Christ...

Yes.

Again you are entitled to your opinions but that goes directly against Scripture that says otherwise...

What is the context of this verse? Isn't this the story of Lazarus being raised? What was Jesus teaching Martha here?

That He is the Resurrection and the Life, I am wondering if you understand what Jesus was teaching everyone here?

Lazarus is the Spiritually Dead man we all are, then Jesus calls out to him/us and Resurrects him/us from the grave of death he/we were in. He then causes the bindings to be taken off (sin) and tells him to come forth. This is all a picture of the 1st Resurrection, I mean even Martha was confused on what the 1st Resurrection was.

She literally says I know that he will come back at the resurrection in the last day, Jesus doesnt say yep you are right, no He says I AM THE RESURRECTION and then proceeds to raise Lazarus. If He was trying to teach that the 1st Resurrection was the event you and Martha thought it was, then He would have told her she is correct and Lazarus would have sat in the tomb dead until that day. Instead the ENTIRE story revolves around Jesus showing everyone that HE is the Resurrection, I mean He even says it in the story:

John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

What do they need to believe? That Jesus Himself is the Resurrection, not some Future Event...

In which of the verses is the Greek term for salvation used? I don't see it.

Come on now brother dont be purposefully dense each of those verses are describing Salvation, you know this.

Not the end ? But Romans 6:22-23 says it is in the end. Please elaborate what "the end" means in Romans 6.

Where does it say that Salvation is the end? It says that in the end we are granted Eternal Life, as I explained in the other post and even more in detail here, that is the Perfected State, but that isnt to disregard that Salvation has already been granted unto us, as dozen of Scriptures state. Cant ignore them just to create a doctrine we want to believe in. Salvation, Sanctification, Perfection...

 

[phipps]

Not Under the Law

Often we hear this argument in an effort to belittle the law of God: “Well, since we are not under the law but under grace, we do not need to keep the Ten Commandments any longer.” Is this a valid point? The Bible certainly does say that we are not under the law, but does that imply that we are free from the obligation to obey it? The text is found in Romans 6:14, 15. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

How easily we could prevent confusion if we accepted exactly what the Bible says. Paul gives his own explanation of his statement. After stating that we are not under the law but under grace, he asks, “What then?” This simply means, “How are we to understand this?” Then notice his answer. In anticipation that some will construe his words to mean that you can break the law because you are under grace, he says, “Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.” In the strongest possible language Paul states that being under grace does not give a license to break the law. Yet this is exactly what millions believe today, and they totally ignore Paul’s specific warning.

If being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law, then what does Paul mean by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in Romans 3:19. “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” Here Paul equates being under the law with “being guilty before God.” In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it—not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it, but are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” Grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God’s law. This is the effective reason that we are not under the law’s guilt and condemnation and also why Paul states that we will not continue to sin.

 

[Todd]

in the citation of Romans 6, what is the interpretation?

I think that "eternal" and "everlasting life" are the exact equivalent to salvation, do you agree?

No, "the life of the ages" or "the death of the ages" to come is the reward or result of either being saved from sin or remaining a slave to sin.
Read the entire chapter of Romans 6 to understand this.