Todd
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Yeah that's the typical religious answer around here when they can't logically refute your presmise or arguments...resort to attacking you personally or start calling you a liar/false teacher/etc.
What Happens when we die according to the Bible?
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elsbet
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I don't believe that... tbh, I don't think that is biblical, the whole backsliding thing. He is faithful.. He will complete the good work started in you.
"... you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give everlasting life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
Red Sky at Morning
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I also respectfully disagree with the position set out in the OP.
The best and clearest teaching I ever heard on this topic was set out by Roger Price. He sets out the subject in three talks.
1: Background, and the implications of Calvinism and Arminianism:-
2 - A scriptural basis for Eternal Security
3 - Detailed treatment of verses used to cast doubt on the security of the believer:-
Of course, for those with less time to spare, the Bible also sets out this balance in Romans 6, 7 and 8.
People backslide, they change their minds. Here on vigilant citizen we read about satanism, illuminati, freemasonry, occultism. Many of the celebrities, politicians and others we read and talk about grew up in the Church but chose a different path to the faith they grew up in for fame, money and power. If they don't repent they will die eternally. Jesus Himself talks about the rewards for the just and unjust and God always speaks the truth.
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, And them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Matthew 13:41-43."
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42."
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.
Sadly according to the Bible not everyone is going to be saved and after Jesus comes back there are not going to be second chances.
In the Bible we read about people who turned away from God and died in their sins. One such person is Judas Iscariot. Someone who actually walked with Jesus. So God works with those who let Him, who make the choice they want Him in their lives. Many, and the Bible makes it clear, most are going to hell because the road that leads to heaven is narrow and difficult. God does not want any one of us to be lost but sadly many will.
“For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves and live ye.” (Ezekiel 18:32)
“… As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Ezekiel 33:11.
This applies to those who will lose their lives eternally too. God wants us all to be saved.
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elsbet
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Indeed, He does want all to be saved. Look again at the particulars, though.
JUDAS ISCARIOT-- you have used him as an example of a backslider--
"... people who turned away from God and died in their sins. One such person is Judas Iscariot. Someone who actually walked with Jesus."
Judas did 'walk with Jesus,' in the literal sense-- but to say that he 'turned away from God, and died in his sins,' is not accurate.
Jesus makes it clear that He 'knows whom He has chosen.' JOHN 13:18 And JUDAS did not turn away from God-- in truth, he was never turned unto God, in the first place.
****
JOHN 6:63-70
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”
So, phipps...
... we are told, in no uncertain terms, that God's hand was on this from the beginning, that the 'scripture would be fulfilled.' JOHN 13:18His exchange with Simon Peter confirms--
"Simon Peter replied... “We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
He was speaking about Judas... "
****
There is wheat and there is chaff-- we know the chaff has been sown into the wheat.
There is no mention, however, of wheat transforming into chaff. Not one.
You are dismissing whole Bible texts that show we have free will. Its all up to us. Just because Jesus is all knowing doesn't mean He wants or wills those things to happen. Out of Love He hoped Judas would believe and would have faith in Him. Sadly that wasn't to be. The Lord's foreknowledge does not remove our freedom to choose. The only service God desires is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by genuine love. He knows that obedience motivated by anything else, such as fear, is ineffective and will eventually lead to sin. That would make us robots.Indeed, He does want all to be saved. Look again at the particulars, though.
JUDAS ISCARIOT-- you have used him as an example of a backslider--
"... people who turned away from God and died in their sins. One such person is Judas Iscariot. Someone who actually walked with Jesus."
Judas did 'walk with Jesus,' in the literal sense-- but to say that he 'turned away from God, and died in his sins,' is not accurate.
Jesus makes it clear that He 'knows whom He has chosen.' JOHN 13:18 And JUDAS did not turn away from God-- in truth, he was never turned unto God, in the first place.
****
JOHN 6:63-70
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”
So, phipps...
His exchange with Simon Peter confirms--
"Simon Peter replied... “We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
He was speaking about Judas... "
****
There is wheat and there is chaff-- we know the chaff has been sown into the wheat.
There is no mention, however, of wheat transforming into chaff. Not one.
Didn't God know when He created Satan that He would sin? Didn't He know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him and Satan who He had thrown on this earth with a third of all the angels would tempt them and win? So why did He continue with those actions fully aware of what was going to happen? After sin came into the world, God put in place the plan of salvation for all mankind. Does that mean we no longer have free choice because of that plan? The Bible tells us we are to choose the Lord. That means we have the choice not to choose. With that freedom comes the consequences of the choices we make. Jesus clearly some people's choices will not lead them to heaven.
Jesus spoke of hell are you going to dismiss His words? If everyone was going to be saved what was the point of the plan of salvation? What was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? The Bible tells us the wages of sin is death. Sin is the breaking of God's law. If God could do away with His law without dying on the cross, He would. But His law is everlasting, it shows God's character. So He died on the cross to save us from the doom of eternal death. He dies in our stead if we accept Him. There is freedom of choice and God has no hand in the choices we make but He respects them whether He agrees with them or not. He appeals to us through His word but ultimately its up to us what choices we make. Just like Satan, Adam and Eve, Saul Judas and all of us who have disobeyed and broken His law did. God chose all of us and wants us all to be saved. Only a Loving God Would Risk Granting Full Freedom for All. This glorious and crucial gift of freedom could come only from a just, transparent, and loving God. It is an honour and a joy to serve such a Creator, Lord, and Friend!
I will re-post the article I posted on predestination in the once always saved? forum here too.
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@elsbet
Predestination
Unconditional election (also called “unconditional grace” or “predestination”) teaches that before the world was created, God predestinated some people to be saved (the elect) and the rest to continue in their sins and, therefore, be damned, consigned to the eternally burning fires of hell. Human choice, it asserts, plays no role in salvation. A key passage used to support this view is found in the apostle Paul’s writings—
Certainly, Bible passages can be used to support the concept that God knows all things past, present, and future. “All things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13). Bible prophecy affirms that God knows the future, but future events do not happen because God “foreknew” them; rather, they are known by God because they will take place.
Moreover, because God knows something will happen does not mean He wills it to happen.
Did God predestinate that only some would be saved? Paul writes elsewhere that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). If only some are predestined to be saved, why would Jesus offer salvation to all? Christ said, in the closing chapter of the Bible, “Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17, emphasis added).
The Contemporary English Version Bible translates Romans 8:29 more precisely, stating that God “has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.” While everyone is called to salvation, not everyone responds. But to those who choose to come to Christ, these are transformed into His likeness.
One reason Calvin argued in favour of predestination was to make sure God receives all the glory. He believed that if you have any part to play in your salvation—even your own choice to accept Jesus—then you would deserve some credit. Therefore, he concluded, you really do not have a choice. God’s sovereignty, he taught, does not permit human free will.
It’s an interesting theory, but it is not biblical.
I like to think of God’s foreknowledge as something like a helicopter pilot flying above a mountain with a one-way tunnel dug through it. Since the mountain is composed of solid granite, the engineers decided to blast only one lane through the rock, placing a stop light at either end so that vehicles would take turns going through the narrow tunnel. But on a particular day, one of the stop lights was broken.
When the pilot looked down, he first saw a big eighteen-wheeler entering one end at sixty miles per hour. Then he noticed a little red sports car zipping into the tunnel from the other end. The helicopter pilot knew what was about to happen; however, his knowledge did not make the inevitable accident occur; he simply had foreknowledge of a coming collision because of his perspective.
God has an all-knowing perspective. He knows whether you are going to be saved or lost, but this knowledge does not take away your free choice. We know this because of the many Scripture passages that demonstrate our freedom to choose. Joshua told Israel to “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). The story of the fall of humanity shows the high value (and high price) that God gave to Adam and Eve when He let them choose whether to obey or disobey Him.
https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-a...magazine/id/14710/t/once-saved--always-saved-
Predestination
Unconditional election (also called “unconditional grace” or “predestination”) teaches that before the world was created, God predestinated some people to be saved (the elect) and the rest to continue in their sins and, therefore, be damned, consigned to the eternally burning fires of hell. Human choice, it asserts, plays no role in salvation. A key passage used to support this view is found in the apostle Paul’s writings—
Whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:29, 30).
Certainly, Bible passages can be used to support the concept that God knows all things past, present, and future. “All things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13). Bible prophecy affirms that God knows the future, but future events do not happen because God “foreknew” them; rather, they are known by God because they will take place.
Moreover, because God knows something will happen does not mean He wills it to happen.
Did God predestinate that only some would be saved? Paul writes elsewhere that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). If only some are predestined to be saved, why would Jesus offer salvation to all? Christ said, in the closing chapter of the Bible, “Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17, emphasis added).
The Contemporary English Version Bible translates Romans 8:29 more precisely, stating that God “has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.” While everyone is called to salvation, not everyone responds. But to those who choose to come to Christ, these are transformed into His likeness.
One reason Calvin argued in favour of predestination was to make sure God receives all the glory. He believed that if you have any part to play in your salvation—even your own choice to accept Jesus—then you would deserve some credit. Therefore, he concluded, you really do not have a choice. God’s sovereignty, he taught, does not permit human free will.
It’s an interesting theory, but it is not biblical.
I like to think of God’s foreknowledge as something like a helicopter pilot flying above a mountain with a one-way tunnel dug through it. Since the mountain is composed of solid granite, the engineers decided to blast only one lane through the rock, placing a stop light at either end so that vehicles would take turns going through the narrow tunnel. But on a particular day, one of the stop lights was broken.
When the pilot looked down, he first saw a big eighteen-wheeler entering one end at sixty miles per hour. Then he noticed a little red sports car zipping into the tunnel from the other end. The helicopter pilot knew what was about to happen; however, his knowledge did not make the inevitable accident occur; he simply had foreknowledge of a coming collision because of his perspective.
God has an all-knowing perspective. He knows whether you are going to be saved or lost, but this knowledge does not take away your free choice. We know this because of the many Scripture passages that demonstrate our freedom to choose. Joshua told Israel to “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). The story of the fall of humanity shows the high value (and high price) that God gave to Adam and Eve when He let them choose whether to obey or disobey Him.
https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-a...magazine/id/14710/t/once-saved--always-saved-
Red Sky at Morning
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Free will, predestination and maybe "middle knowledge" - a debate that has been going on for some time now!
Never heard of "middle knowledge" but in the Bible there is one truth on every subject. There is no middle ground.
Red Sky at Morning
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Indeed. Where we go off track is when we fail to account for the extent of God's knowledge. Actually there is nothing "middle" about the concept of Middle Knowledge.
Psalm 139 says it so well...
1 O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfullyand wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.
elsbet
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*sigh*
I'm waving this away with my hand in the air. I never said we were automatons. You are not understanding a much broader concept, and tbh, you seem unwilling to do so.
What does "So the prophecy would be fulfilled..." mean to you, in the context I posted, above?
I already explained just because Jesus is all knowing and knows what will happen in the future does not change the fact we have free will. So "So the prophecy would be fulfilled..." comes under that banner.
Either you believe we have complete free will or we don't. There is no middle ground. Whether or not we are saved, is our choice. Why else does the Bible say choose ye who you will serve if you have no choice? Granted, the grace of God does intervene in our lives. He tries to get our attention. And as we respond through our lives to the providence of God.
This bit is copy pasted. I have fore warned you. It relays the message I want to relay better than I can. Its up to you to read it or not.
"God has made you different from robots. He has created you with the ability to reason. He says come now let us reason together. He wants you to think. And what do you do after you have reasoned? You make a decision. That is why Jesus said what profit it is to gain the whole world and lose your soul. I want you to calculate, think and decide what is more profitable. He wants you to choose. It is a wonderful privilege when you really think about it."
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Like I said, never heard of it. I will to stick to the Bible and not a "concept."
Red Sky at Morning
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I think you might find that the "concept" of Middle Knowledge comes from the Bible ;-)
I disagree. The Bible is self explanatory and does not need a "concept".
Red Sky at Morning
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I think we are just playing with labels here. You could say there is no mention of Calvinism or Arminianism in the Bible and you would be correct.
These concepts emerge from applying consistency and a knowledge of the revealed nature of God to the question of salvation. Molinism (or "Middle Knowledge") simply observes that the Bible in more than one place indicates God knew both what would happen AND what might have happened under different circumstances. This knowing what "might have happened" is termed "Middle Knowledge".
I think William Lane Craig explains the idea really well.
I don't always agree with Matt Slick, but he's right as rain about this homegrown philosophical heresy
https://carm.org/what-is-middle-knowledge-and-is-it-biblical
Red Sky at Morning
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I don't automatically subscribe to all the conclusions of Molinism but it does seem to me that God does understand subjunctive conditionals. I.e. He knows what we would have done in other circumstances. I don't think such a view constitutes a herasy.
Red Sky at Morning
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I think it is possible to overstate a piece of knowledge to such a degree that it does become heretical. The VCF board attracts such overstatement in my experience. When in doubt, return to the Lord and submit your complex theories to the one who really knows best!