How important is the Image of the Beast?

colson

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I'm not sold on the idea of the image of the beast being technology.

IMO, It is 'pharmakia'/ drugs for sorcery/ hallucinogens that animate the statue (generally translated as 'sorcery' like below)

Rev 18
21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,

“So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
and will be found no more;
22 and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters,
will be heard in you no more,
and a craftsman of any craft
will be found in you no more,
and the sound of the mill
will be heard in you no more,
23 and the light of a lamp
will shine in you no more,
and the voice of bridegroom and bride
will be heard in you no more,
for your merchants were the great ones of the earth,
and all nations were deceived by your sorcery. ( 'pharmakia'/ drugs for sorcery)
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”​

this is in tandem with the 'deceived' of Rev 13

11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,

14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.​

the shocking thing about the image is that it talks and appears to be alive, in contrast to the repeated motif of idols not talking.
Hab 2:18
“What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes speechless idols!
Psalm 115
4Their idols are silver and gold, The work of man's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they cannot speak; They have eyes, but they cannot see; 6They have ears, but they cannot hear; They have noses, but they cannot smell;
etc etc

Hallucinogens / 'pharmakia' would explain the 'whisked away rapture' (ketamine gives one an 'out of body experience', a 'rapture, geddit?) and 'interdimensional greys' (meth makes people see shadow people) and allow for the making of the idol to 'come to life' . I have seen these motifs dozens of times in random movies over the years (Ghostbusters has one of the more distinct versions of the idol coming to life, ie the Statue of Liberty fighting the monster) .
 

Thunderian

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Scott, I posted on this thread to ask you to explain a little more about how teachers are focusing on the antichrist. Believe it or not, I am curious about your beliefs.

You still haven't answered my initial question, and I continue to be baffled by your attacks on the state of my personal relationship with God.
 

Lady

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@colson,
Just to support your interpretation of the word "sorcery" in the Revelations passage, I used e-Sword to double-check:
you are correct, but another rendering is "witchcraft" for which a case could be made.
pharmakeia
far-mak-i'-ah
From G5332; medication (“pharmacy”), that is, (by extension) magic (literal or figurative): - sorcery, witchcraft.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I think it is generally best to avoid 'ad hominum' attacks... I feel like a bit of an outsider to the thread but I'm going back to the initial question over 'How important is the image of the Beast' and as far as I can see it, the first thing that needs to be said is 'it depends on where you are standing'....

If you believe we are in the end times and will go through the Tribulation (therefore risking taking the Mark and losing salvation eternally) then it is very important we recognise what it may be, warn people and be on our guard against being tricked, tempted or compelled to become part of the 'Beast' system.

If the Church is Raptured before the Tribulation, we will see neither Antichrist, Mark, Image of the Beast or the False Prophet (though they may be on the scene right now). In this scenario, making sure we help as many as we can to come to a saving faith is something that should consume us and take our attention. The enemies plan should be of lesser importance.

If Christians are wrong on the whole question and an alternate Islamic eschatology, age of aquarius or Golden Age is about to dawn, then the whole point us moot (I don't agree with this latter point but I know many feel this way).

I am very careful not to be too dogmatic about exactly how things will pan out. My 'end times story' looks quite different to the way it did 20 years ago. I am still firmly pre-trib (sorry Scott) but with the advancements in quantum computing, gene editing, 2045.com and more, I can see the world at large sleepwalking into the coming Great Deception and I would hate for my worst enemy to go into it.

Let's not argue on this though - why not set out the various possibilities without calling each other heretics and keep an open mind. Perhaps we all might learn something from the dialogue?
 

Thunderian

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Scott, I never start out picking fights with you. Generally I ask a question and instead of answering me plainly, you go off on these tangents about how twisted my view of the Bible is.

Why not just answer my questions? Like I said, I'm genuinely interested in your point of view but it's really hard to discuss anything with you because of your reaction to my questions.
 

JoChris

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I think it is generally best to avoid 'ad hominum' attacks... I feel like a bit of an outsider to the thread but I'm going back to the initial question over 'How important is the image of the Beast' and as far as I can see it, the first thing that needs to be said is 'it depends on where you are standing'....

If you believe we are in the end times and will go through the Tribulation (therefore risking taking the Mark and losing salvation eternally) then it is very important we recognise what it may be, warn people and be on our guard against being tricked, tempted or compelled to become part of the 'Beast' system.

If the Church is Raptured before the Tribulation, we will see neither Antichrist, Mark, Image of the Beast or the False Prophet (though they may be on the scene right now). In this scenario, making sure we help as many as we can to come to a saving faith is something that should consume us and take our attention. The enemies plan should be of lesser importance.

If Christians are wrong on the whole question and an alternate Islamic eschatology, age of aquarius or Golden Age is about to dawn, then the whole point us moot (I don't agree with this latter point but I know many feel this way).

I am very careful not to be too dogmatic about exactly how things will pan out. My 'end times story' looks quite different to the way it did 20 years ago. I am still firmly pre-trib (sorry Scott) but with the advancements in quantum computing, gene editing, 2045.com and more, I can see the world at large sleepwalking into the coming Great Deception and I would hate for my worst enemy to go into it.

Let's not argue on this though - why not set out the various possibilities without calling each other heretics and keep an open mind. Perhaps we all might learn something from the dialogue?
Although I believe in the premillennialism position I don't understand why there is so much enmity between christians on this issue. There are way more important issues that Christians should be concerned about where it comes to what justifies separation from each other.
I believe all the signs that are coming to pass should make us even more determined to evangelise and lead non-believers to salvation before the Rapture occur before it's too late.
 

colson

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@colson,
Just to support your interpretation of the word "sorcery" in the Revelations passage, I used e-Sword to double-check:
you are correct, but another rendering is "witchcraft" for which a case could be made.
pharmakeia
far-mak-i'-ah
From G5332; medication (“pharmacy”), that is, (by extension) magic (literal or figurative): - sorcery, witchcraft.
Yes, but 'witchcraft' has no power, in and of itself. (Maybe you disagree with this.) Drugs actually 'do' something, therefore they are the essential mechanism by which deception is manufactured.
 

colson

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@ Scott
I'm totally fine with the image of the beast being a 'robot'/ transhuman / cloned DNA Jesus, whatever. But the question here is: how does technology make people think that it is God / or god-like. I can totally envision robots becoming idols that talk, and enforcing a materialistic worldview, 'talking tea pots and chairs' like a Disney movie. But that is not the same as people thinking that C-3PO is God.

The 'singularity'/ AI god clearly is being set up to be a god for people. Most definitely. My problem is that the 'drug deception' is a less advertised deception than the 'AI god' techno god deception, which Tom Horn etc promotes endlessly. Which doesn't make him (or you) wrong, but it makes me suspicious.

It's like the Matrix movies, the AI god comes 1st, with the omnipresent Mr Smith's. then Morpheus presents the 'pharmakia' that opens Neo's eyes (the red and blue pill choice).
 

Lady

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Aren't the pills a metaphor for knowledge vs. ignorance?
This now reminds me of the "forbidden fruit" in the garden and its promise to make one wise; to make one like God, knowing good and evil.
Was the fruit pill-shaped? :p
 

rainerann

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Interesting. I have heard variances of some of what you stated but the God of forces ushering him into power I haven't heard yet.

Based on my interpretation the God of forces = Satan
And the god his father's knew not = technology (computers).

I believe the Image of the Beast will be a supercomputer and Satan will possess it once he is cast out of heaven at mid tribulation.

That is why it comes to life, because Satan will be the user of that supercomputer.

The False prophet has two main gifts. To make fire come down from heaven to earth and to give life to the image.

Jesus said in Luke 10:18 he beheld Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

That will happen at mid-trib. And the false prophet will call fire (lightning) from heaven as Satan is cast down and he'll use that same lightning to usher Satan into the image with lightning as the power source.

Have you ever heard of the 666 calculator?
I see the potential of a computer in connection with the image of the beast. I just don't think it requires the whole possession feature. Artificial intelligence research has been around just as long as the computer has. It is very possible that the image of the beast could be an independent form of artificial intelligence.

Artificial intelligence is very close to becoming a reality. It is missing approximately 100,000 if/then instructions to give it a wider range of responses, and a robot could easily pass for a human being soon.

Then, what we have with the beast is something comparable to Pharaoh in scripture who would harden his heart every time Moses would ask the Lord to remove the plague. The plagues did nothing to change his disposition. This is how the beast will behave.

Therefore, none of this requires actual possession by Satan to accomplish these acts of disobedience. Clearly, there is a spiritual component. However, I don't think that we completely understand how these things are interacting within our world, and more often than not, we become superstitious in our speculation of them. Neither position can be proven with scripture or with available information. It is enough to know that we should be cautious because there are things we don't understand without attempting to identify them directly. We know they are coming. We know they haven't happened yet. This is all we know for certain.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I agree. But thunderian doesn't understand the Bible. The guy lacks discernment. Peter denied Christ and this guy thinks he will just easily stand up to the antichrist and never deny Christ even though Peter couldn't. The Antichrist is here to clean house. Unless you have oil in your vessel you will NOT be able to deny the mark. That's what is said to those who had no oil, go buy and sell among those who do. MARK OF THE BEAST. The counterfeit light.

Matthew 25:

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

This guy acts like what Peter failed to do he'll do with ease. He's deceived. Unless he's full of oil he'll take that mark. He is offering people FALSE HOPE.
Scott,

I have a very dear friend who takes the same stance as you. He used to be pre-trib and has been persuaded that the concept of the 'Secret Rapture' was invented by Darby and Mountford etc etc. It tested our relationship but in the end we agreed as followers of Jesus that he believed what he did for reasons that made sense to him. I could tell he was staunch in his view and his denomination took a similar stance. I could have easily scored a few points off him but the whole exercise would have been one of division rather than unity.

From my perspective, a post-trib view distracts you from the here and now of sharing the Gospel (but many post-trib people could be in truth be more actively engaged than me!). From the post-trib view, I can surmise that it is perceived we are lightweight glass half full types who would crumble, our faith shattered if we suddenly found ourselves in Daniel's 70th week. Again this characterisation may be true of some, but I don't think all. In either case, negative stereotypes about the character or quality of faith if those taking a different view don't add much to the debate.

Going back to my friend, In the end, I had to respect that he took a different stance for scriptural and emotional reasons that seem compelling to him. He encouraged me to attend a Bible study on Revelation where I was sometimes the only @thundarian in the room. Even though there were differences of view, we got along OK.

Perhaps we should all respect the wisdom in the story of the three friends who were thrown into the furnace. Our Lord is well able to deliver us, BUT IF NOT we still won't fall down and worship the idol.

Perhaps among those friends there was one who thought he might get burned up, perhaps another was confident they would be delivered in some way but didn't know what that might look like. Perhaps there was a majority view...

In the end my friend and I took the view that we stood either side if that sentence in Daniel and respected each other as fellow believers. It is easy to use rhetoric rather than reason to score points but it doesn't make the thing discussed budge an inch in terms of truth!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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First off Red Sky you are in a dreamland if you think you are going to just stand up to the antichrist. Only those with oil will be able to and the others will cower in front of the beast system. Only Christ in you can be martyred. Peter learned that the hard way. You are ignoring my example of Peter and hoping on a scripture from the OT when the Peter is the better, more honest, example.

I would like to tell you more about my struggles but have learned the hard way many out there think their lives are much more difficult than they are.

Satan doesn't hinder those preaching a false gospel in fact he usually helps them. He greatly hinders those who are preaching the true and he greatly hinders those who God is raising up to minister unto his body.

I know of this first hand. Something a guy like Thunderian wouldn't have a clue about.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

If the gospel is just hearing the good word and accepting Christ how do you obey that?


Real ministers are coming on the scene who will be preaching a very accurate gospel. All who reject these ministers will also reject the final Elijah and the two witnesses.

This will create the falling away. After that some will hang on but will be be exposed during the tribulation of not loving their lives unto death.

Between your hope and those events many will be offended and turn away from the faith. They will hate God and welcome the antichrist because they will hate the God who has called them to suffer. Some of the greatest persecutors of the church will be from those who fall away. And they will fall away because of the false hope all these false gospels gave them. And they'll hate God and hate his church even more.

Matthew 24:10

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Scott,

There may be a number if pre-trib believers clad in orange, kneeling before the gun on an ISIS member about to pull the trigger. If I go out of this world like Steven instead of Enoch, I know that nothing would turn me against the one who died for me. I also know that a microsecond later I would be in Heaven.

Christians have always faced tribulation. Some of us who believe this and would die rather than deny Jesus don't believe the Bible emphatically teaches that the church will go through the Great Tribulation, that is all.
 
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No. I don't play video games.
Probably the best game series ever, Metal gear..but takes on a whole other level of genius when they introduce us to the AI system that effectively rules the world. A lot like skynet in terminator but more detailed and animated.
That's basically as close to how I understand what the image of the beast will become.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Imagine when Jesus was doing his earthly ministry if 18,000 people all dressed like him and talking like him all decided to stand up and gather followers. Even if you were sincere trying to find and follow Jesus what would be the odds of you even locating him?

Many, MANY not called to the five fold ministry and opening up their mouths and standing in front of those whom God has burdened with this work. I have no choice. I must preform my ministry.

Can you (or many others) say the same? I know for fact Christ has called me to preach the gospel and to abide in the revelation of the mystery of Christ. I'll testify of that fact. God has judged me harshly for disobeying him in even the smallest of areas.

There are too many chefs in the kitchen. Because many false have stood up the believers cannot locate the true. The ones God has called.

Do you honestly believe every born again believer is called to preach the Bible? The book of James says different.

James 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
You raise some interesting points, Scott...

I'm not sure I have a ministry in the conventional sense. I feel called on to love my family, stay close to Jesus and demonstrate the fruit of that relationship if I can. Often I slip up, but I ask for forgiveness and carry on. I talk to friends, colleagues and customers about my faith when I can. Most of the time I try to follow Mary's example though I sometimes lose my peace and emulate Martha instead.

I try not to judge the ministry of others, as I will give no account of it one day. I don't judge my friend for taking a different view to me over end times issues.

P.s. If it came to it, I don't expect to be able to 'stand up' to the Antichrist. I believe I am indwellt with the Holy Spirit who would certainly convict me of the 'wrongness' of his message, and at that point I would want to follow the advice given to Christians facing persecution in Matthew 10...

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Probably the best game series ever, Metal gear..but takes on a whole other level of genius when they introduce us to the AI system that effectively rules the world. A lot like skynet in terminator but more detailed and animated.
That's basically as close to how I understand what the image of the beast will become.
I think you are on the right track.

My personal view is that culture is being bathed and prepared for such a deception and has been for thousands of years. We look like we are nearing the 'jumping off' point now...

I think the same deceit that led the Pharos to imagine they could ascend to godhood is at work. It is no coincidence that 'illuminati' sympathisers are obsessed with Horus, Thoth, Hermes Trismegistis, the Oroboros etc. The desire to be a god rather than submit to God is primal to our sinful nature. I think some blend of our own enhancement and fusion with AI, VR and goodness knows what else will be on offer to those who don't want to submit to the true God. Perhaps they will want the Mark for everything they believe it will make them.

I might be wrong, I just have my own ideas here..
 
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I think you are on the right track.

My personal view is that culture is being bathed and prepared for such a deception and has been for thousands of years. We look like we are nearing the 'jumping off' point now...

I think the same deceit that led the Pharos to imagine they could ascend to godhood is at work. It is no coincidence that 'illuminati' sympathisers are obsessed with Horus, Thoth, Hermes Trismegistis, the Oroboros etc. The desire to be a god rather than submit to God is primal to our sinful nature. I think some blend of our own enhancement and fusion with AI, VR and goodness knows what else will be on offer to those who don't want to submit to the true God. Perhaps they will want the Mark for everything they believe it will make them.

I might be wrong, I just have my own ideas here..

it isn't so much a 'robot' that walks around ruling people, so much as it's a system that controls all the systems inc ai's and robots.
I mean just look at a basic thing like cookies and how surreal advertising is when you get pop ups that can even contain your info.
Think of the amount of data google holds on us built up from our online search information.
now imagine all of that along with our bank balance and expenditure, shopping habits. not only the what but what when how.
it's pretty scary to imagine how far this can go.
now add to that future technology ie nanotechnology.
Basically the ai system in metal gear is something even i couldn't come up with esp in MGS2 when it malfunctions and reveals who it is.
im still shocked a japanese guy like hideo kojimah, ..could come up with a story like this

 

Red Sky at Morning

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Sorry for being a bit harsh in my directness tonight. My life is affected on a large degree by false ministers who are ignorantly giving people false hope. They are sincerely wrong. I believe it will create the falling away spoken about in the Bible.

You seem like a genuine person. Pray for my wife and I regarding our need for a reliable car. The one we have now is breaking down and putting us both on edge.

True ministry cost everything and pays nothing.
I will Scott... I know what it can be like and I will pray for you. I don't buy into the Prosperity Gospel, but I firmly believe that God will supply all your needs according to His riches in Glory. You need wheels...
 
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