Zionism: Is it Biblical?

meximonk

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Thank you for taking the time and for responding!

A) Yup.

A2) Interesting response. I can see you put a lot of thought into this and you're no slouch, in fact I agree with most of what you've said here. Key question for you though: what if some, or better yet, a minority, WERE obedient?

A3-6) You're ignoring the question about the other Tribes... this is a HUGE part of the puzzle.

Moses was NOT a Zionist. Zionism didn't exist until the 1800s. Zionism goes against the Word of God, the Law that G-d gave to Moses.

"You won’t find ONE reference to Israel being in the Middle East before the 1800s, IF NOT, 1900s."
You don't seem to know the difference between Israel and Judah. (That's okay, most people don't). But it's extremely relative to what I'm getting at with all this. Jews have been in the territory now called Israel (incorrectly, I might add, but that's a whole other can of worms) (note that I said JEWS, but not Israelites - that's important) living peacefully with Arabs right up until Britain came in and messed everything up, although the Jews loathe to admit it. However, they were definitely in the minority. This is key: There were none from the House of Israel, just the tribe of Judah.
 

meximonk

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Also, check out my post on this thread, It's covering the same theme:

Approximately 24 years of reserach has lead me to believe several things with regards to answering the questions posed on this thread:
1) What most people around the globe think of as "Israel" is not really Israel, it is a NWO counterfit. Even Orthodox Jews believe this. The very symbol of the flag of Israel is a Babylonian witchcraft symbol, and a great many observant Orthodox and Messianic* Jews know this.
2) The so-called "Modern State of Israel" is merely a plot of land set aside by the NWO awaiting for what they believe to be the final Holocaust to occur, the plan is to get all Jews and those close to them into the land as much as possible, and then try to wipe them out when most of them are there in a massive attack prophesied in Scripture. It will nearly succeed, but ultimately fail.
3) The Jews themselves are merely only 1 Tribe of 12. They are however, extremely dominent. Modern-day Israel, (the people, not the land), are divided into 2 Houses recognized by most obsevant Jews and Messianic Jews, the House of Judah and the House of Ephraim. Entire books have been written on this subject alone, so don't expect me to go too far into it here. HOWEVER, there is only one of these houses represented in the Land of Israel ("Eretz-Yisrael") today, the House of Judah. That is about to change, however, whether the Orthodox like it or not. Some say it is already in the process of changing and that they may be right.
4) The enemy knows #'s 1, 2 and 3; and they are trying to implement number 2, and are fulfilling prophecy while doing so.
5) Prophecy States that Jerusalem will be a Global Capital. The enemy knows this.


[* You have been lied too by the NWO re: Jews, there are more sects than what you are told. Today, in order of prominance, there are:
Reform Jews (Jews in name or blood only);
Orthodox Jews (modern-day "Pharisees" which in turn are divided into different sub-groups...);
Mordern Orthodox Jews (sort of "Neo Orthodox Jews"...);
Messianic Jews, a.k.a. "Hebrew Christians", "Hebrews", "Nazarites"...;

Karaite Jews (more or less modern-day "Saducees");
 

Setfree

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I guess Paul wasn’t a believer.

Acts 22:3 - I am verily a man which am a Jew ...
" I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day." Acts 22:3

Yes, Paul's earthly heritage was Jewish, absolutely. But he became a new creation when he believed in his heart Jesus was the Son of God. Jews and Gentiles all have access to Jesus.

This is also silly. Read the book of Esther.
The word Jewish to describe an Israelite only existed after the crucifixion of Jesus. So I am guessing your translation of Estherwas translated into English after the crucifixion?

Jews come from the tribe of JUDAH, they've been around since their father Judah was sired by Jacob, so:
NO to your first point.

"Zion refers to the body of Christ" bullshit. I read, write, and speak Biblical Hebrew. "Zion" in Ivrit ("Hebrew") transliterated is "Tsiyon" and literally means the Mountain of Jerusalem. so:
NO to your second point.

TOTALLY YES to your third point. ( "Zionism is a luciferic religion that capitalises on the Old testament bloodline of the Israelites, yet does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as King of Kings." )
Yes Israelites did come from the tribe of Judah - but you are missing the point of my comment - a Jew is a descendant of an Israelite who doesn't believe in Jesus.

I meant that Zion can also be prophetic into the New Testament, so yes, the Hebrew word won't match the syntax of Greek.
 

Thunderian

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The Quran states that the gospel of Jesus (peace be upon him) the actual text which was revealed upon Jesus is not corrupt.
The new testament is composed of the writings of others hence these are corrupt.
The New Testament was written by men who either knew Jesus, or knew someone who had closely known him. The Apostle Peter, one of the writers who knew Jesus, wrote that the same God who inspired men to write the Old Testament inspired the men who wrote the New.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Quran talks about the original Gospel which did not survive, although, we do know that remnants of the original gospel of Jesus peace be upon him exist in the new testament.
There is no evidence of a lost gospel of Jesus, is there?

All the text of the new testament is not from the original injeel (gospel).

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants [al-Asbat]1 and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:136
The Quran says that the word of God was revealed to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. These were obviously men of the Old Testament. Does that mean that it's only the New Testament that Islam says has been corrupted? Or does the Quran condemn the Old Testament as well?

Here are a kist of the differences between Islam and Christianity for your information:
As a Christian, I am well aware there are differences between Islam and Christianity. I am also aware that Christianity predates Islam by well over half a millennia, and the scriptures we use -- the writings of Moses that the Quran seems to endorse -- go back many thousands of years. Because of this, any serious Christian would ask for proof that Islam is an improvement on their relationship with God before they just write Christianity off in favour of Islam. Don't you agree that's wise, if a person is serious about their faith? Would you drop Islam if someone came along and said that the Quran was a fraud without offering a good argument? No disrespect intended, but Islam doesn't at all make a good argument against Christianity.

"These are the most significant deviations in their religion, which widen the gap between us Muslims and them:

1.The Christian belief that the Messiah is the son of God.
This is a verse from the Old Testament saying the Messiah will be God.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

2.The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) is a god alongside God and that he is the second person of the holy trinity, according to their beliefs.
See the above verse. These are teachings from the Old Testament, written thousands of years before Christianity. The New Testament perfectly reflects the Old Testament.

3.The belief that divinity may be incarnated in humanity.
God tells us that divinity will be born a human in the very beginning of the Bible. Moses recorded this prophecy about the human birth of Jesus Christ. When Jesus was born sinless, lived sinless, and then died for our sins and rose again, he conquered Satan's power over believers. Satan bruised Jesus by killing him, Jesus defeated Satan's power by rising again.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

4.The belief that God is formed of three Persons, which is known as the doctrine of the trinity.
This is a good piece about the doctrine of the Trinity found in the Old Testament. One of the verses quoted comes even before the prophecy of Jesus's birth in Genesis 3. The Old Testament refers to God in the plural in several verses, and this verse in Isaiah is said to be spoken by Jesus Christ.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

That won't convince you, but it's wrong to say the Trinity is solely a New Testament doctrine. Jesus says he is sent by God, and by God's Spirit, and says he is also God. God is three persons, and one God.

5.The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified by the Jews on the command of Pontius Pilate, and that he died on the cross.
It's a matter of historical record that Jesus lived, and was executed by Pilate. Tacitus wrote "[Christ] suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus". The Old Testament prophesies that the Jews will cause Jesus to be killed, and that they will one day mourn their actions and be reconciled to their Messiah.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

6.The Christian belief that the Messiah died on the cross as a ransom for mankind and as expiation for original sin.
The Old Testament prophesies that the Messiah will die for our sins.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

7.The Christian attitude towards the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus (peace be upon him) and claimed that they crucified him and killed him, and they accused his mother Mary (Maryam) of fornication – of which she was innocent – yet despite all that their attitude towards them today is one of support and loyalty, and their attitude towards the Muslims who venerate Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother is one of enmity and disavowal.
I condemn Christians who are anti-Semitic as well, but that's kind of an odd thing for a Muslim to hold against a Christian, don't you think? Even the Quran speaks of killing Jews.

Christians don't accuse Mary of fornication. The Old Testament prophesied that a virgin would conceive.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

And the New Testament records it happening.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Does that sound like fornication? Mary's pregnancy with Jesus was caused by the Holy Spirit and Mary remained pure until she conceived more children with Joseph. This is a basic Christian belief and makes no sense as an accusation.

8.Their distortion of the Book of God the Gospel (Injeel), whether they distorted the words by changing them or by adding words, or they distorted the meaning, and in doing that they attribute things to God that cannot be attributed to Him.
It's hard to respond to this without clear examples or proof of corruption from the original text, which I don't suppose you have handy. I am providing clear doctrine from the Old Testament which supports doctrine found in the New Testament. Christianity is in full agreement with Old Testament doctrine, while Islam is not, so it's not any wonder that Christianity and Islam disagree.

9.The doctrine of redemption, which is their belief that God sent His only son to redeem mankind from a sin committed by the father of mankind (Adam – peace be upon him), but God was unable to forgive his sin, so He sent His only son who had no sin, to sacrifice himself in order to do away with sin. This is an attribution of imperfection to the Lord of the Worlds and a denial of the fact that Adam (peace be upon him) repented and Allaah saved the Messiah (peace be upon him) from death.
Repentance doesn't gain salvation. There must be a sacrifice. Moses wrote in Leviticus 17:11 "for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." If Islam accepts Moses, they must accept those words.

10. Their disbelief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), even though he is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments.
Can you blame our disbelief? Muhammad came long after the word of God had been declared a finished book. Believing his words goes against the Bible. You say the Bible can't be trusted, but by every measurable property, it holds up.

11. Their belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah that they have in front of them today, which contains insults against God, describing Him as having shortcomings, and insults against the Prophets and Messengers, saying things that one can hardly dare utter, but we mention them in order to highlight the abhorrent nature of the kufr (disbelief) that they follow. They describe God as weeping with regret for the Flood which drowned the people of Noah, until His eyes became sore, and the angels came to visit Him – exalted be He far above that.

They describe Lot (peace be upon him) as committing incest with his two daughters, and Noah as drinking wine until he became drunk and his ‘awrah (nakedness) became visible. And there are even more foolish stories than that. "
These things were written of by Moses, who the Quran says was an instrument of God's revelation. I'm honestly very confused as to what Muslims believe about the Bible. Is any of it not corrupt? Why does Islam name check Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and then reject everything they say? What part of the Quran says that the text of the Bible is corrupt? Doesn't the Quran say in 6:115 that no one can change God's words? If the Quran says that the Torah and the Gospel were once the word of God, doesn't it go against the Quran to say they've changed? So why do you say it?
 

Thunderian

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" I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day." Acts 22:3

Yes, Paul's earthly heritage was Jewish, absolutely. But he became a new creation when he believed in his heart Jesus was the Son of God. Jews and Gentiles all have access to Jesus.
Everyone has access to Jesus, but why did Paul call himself a Jew if he wasn't one? Why would Luke call Aquila a Jew? Aquila was a believer in Jesus Christ.

The word Jewish to describe an Israelite only existed after the crucifixion of Jesus. So I am guessing your translation of Estherwas translated into English after the crucifixion?
The word translated as Jew in Esther is Yehuwdiy . Maybe @meximonk can tell you if it means Jew or not. I'm no scholar, but it looks pretty sus to me.

The term Jew is also used by Jeremiah and Zechariah, the woman at the well is called a Jew by John, Pilate even asks Jesus, "Am I a Jew?" All before the crucifixion. Truthfully, it's an odd thing to think that the term Jew didn't exist until after Jesus was crucified.

Yes Israelites did come from the tribe of Judah - but you are missing the point of my comment - a Jew is a descendant of an Israelite who doesn't believe in Jesus.
Who isn't named Paul or Aquila.
 

free2018

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I've been in the middle of this topic by the very nature of who I am, and I hear all sides of it from Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, and Atheists.

I have my own views on it, but they're not completely solidified. It's enough to say that I lean very heavily against it.

But what I'm looking for are Biblical references (Scriptures, passages) (from apocrypha too) that you believe support Zionism or go against it. I'm not looking to debate the issue, I'm looking to see things / points of view that I might have missed that may solidify my current stance or take me back from it. In short, I seek truth. Thanks in advance.


Zionism is just a tool of Satan's people.
Revelation 3:9 is a good one.
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee".
 

DesertRose

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The New Testament was written by men who either knew Jesus, or knew someone who had closely known him. The Apostle Peter, one of the writers who knew Jesus, wrote that the same God who inspired men to write the Old Testament inspired the men who wrote the New.
Here are responses to your questions from informed sources since I am not a bible scholar.

"We do not need to try hard to prove that the Gospels and all the books of the Christians did not come from God or from the Messiah (peace be upon him), as we needed to do with regard to the Torah and the books attributed to the Prophets that the Jews have, because the Jews claim that the Torah that they have was revealed from God to Moosa, so we needed to establish proof that this claim of theirs is false. With regard to the Christians, they have taken care of the issue themselves, because they do not believe that the Gospels were revealed from God to the Messiah, or that the Messiah brought them, rather all of them from first to last, peasants and kings, Nestorians, Jacobites, Maronites and Orthodox are all agreed that there are four historical accounts written by four known men at different times. The first of them is the account written by Matthew the Levite who was a disciple of the Messiah, nine years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Hebrew in Judaea in Palestine, and it filled approximately twenty-eight pages in a medium-sized script. The next account was written by Mark, a disciple of Simon ben Yuna, who was called Peter, twenty-two years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek in Antioch in the land of the Byzantines. They say that the Simon mentioned is the one who wrote it, then he erased his name from the beginning of it and attributed it to his disciple Mark. It filled twenty-four pages written in a medium-sized script. This Simon was a disciple of the Messiah. The third account written was that of Luke, a physician of Antioch who was also a disciple of Simon Peter. He wrote it in Greek after Mark had written his account, and is similar in length to the Gospel of Matthew. The fourth account was written by John the son of Zebedee, another disciple of the Messiah, sixty-odd years after the Messiah has been taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek, and it filled twenty-four pages in a medium-sized script. End quote.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh (3:21):

With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. End quote.

Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said:

With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed.

They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven.

During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them, as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety.

If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted.

End quote. Al-Fasl, 2/4-5.

In addition to this huge disruption in the chain of transmission of their books, which lasted for two centuries, these books did not remain in the languages in which they were originally written, rather they were translated, more than once, by people whose level of knowledge and honesty is unknown. The contradictions in these books and their shortcomings are among the strongest evidence that they have been distorted and that they are not the Gospel (Injeel) that Allaah revealed to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]."


The Quran says that the word of God was revealed to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. These were obviously men of the Old Testament. Does that mean that it's only the New Testament that Islam says has been corrupted? Or does the Quran condemn the Old Testament as well?
I thought that you could see from point 11 that we believe the Torah is distorted.

“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

“Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: ‘We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,’ and ‘Hear and let you (Muhammad) hear nothing.’ And Raa’ina [in Arabic this means, ‘Be careful, listen to us and we listen to you,’ whereas in Hebrew it means ‘an insult.’] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said, ‘We hear and obey,’ and ‘Do make us understand,’ it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except for a few.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:46]

“So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).” [al-Maa’idah 5:13]

The phrase “because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them” refers to the fact that they broke the Covenant which had been made with them, so Allaah cursed them, i.e., He kept them away from following the True Guidance. “[We] made their hearts grow hard” means that they will not benefit from any preaching because their hearts are so hard. “They change the words from their (right) places” means that they play havoc with the words of Allaah and misinterpret His Book, taking it to mean things that were never meant and attributing to Allaah things that He never said; may Allaah protect us from that.

“[They] have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them” means that they stopped following its teachings because they did not want to follow them. Al-Hasan said: “They did not adhere to their religion or keep their duties towards Allaah, without which no deeds are acceptable to Him; their fitrah (innate nature) was not sound and their deeds were not righteous.” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

So it becomes quite clear that the ways in which the Children of Israel tampered with the Tawraat and Injeel include the following:
  1. Changing
  2. Omitting
  3. Adding things and attributing to Allaah words that He did not say
  4. Misinterpreting the words of Allaah.
When Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent, the original Tawraat and Injeel had already been altered and distorted. Allaah revealed the Qur’aan to His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and guaranteed that He Himself would preserve it, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9]

for more:
Q&A: How Could God's Words Be Changed? | Dr. Shabir Ally



I condemn Christians who are anti-Semitic as well, but that's kind of an odd thing for a Muslim to hold against a Christian, don't you think? Even the Quran speaks of killing Jews.
The Quran does not speak about killing Jews.
Seems that you are not aware of how Muslims view Jews as the people of the book and how they were sheltered on Muslim lands when they were being persecuted in Europe.
All people whether Muslim, Jewish or Christian or other who know the truth and reject the message of God will be accountable for their disbelief and rejection.
Muslims take issue with anyone who oppresses them, however if they do not oppress we are to live well with others.
Find out how Jews were treated in Christianity versus Islam from Rabbi Tovia:
Muslim Caller! How is Christian and Muslim Jew-hatred Different? Rabbi Tovia Singer Responds



Repentance doesn't gain salvation. There must be a sacrifice. Moses wrote in Leviticus 17:11 "for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." If Islam accepts Moses, they must accept those words.
Strange a human sacrifice is very abhorrent and unnecessary since we believe that Prophet Adam repented for his sin thus setting the example for his progeny unlike the shaitan who was too full of pride to do so.
I got your answer for your blood atonement issues as well from a jewish website and it seems that they also believe that the Creator accepts sincere repentance.

Excerpt below:

"The Church appeals to this verse to prove that the blood of the cross is man’s only hope for salvation and the assurance that God will forgive his sins.

In response to this argument, I have explained that contrary to the missionary claim that blood sacrifice is the only method of atonement, the Bible clearly prescribes three methods of atonement: the sin sacrifice, repentance, and charity. Moreover, the sin sacrifice (called in the Jewish Scriptures as korban chatat) did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man’s most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins. The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally. The brazen sinner was barred from the sanctuary, and had to bear his own iniquity because of his rebellion against God.
The answer to your question is simple. Jesus could not die for anyone’s sins, whether they were committed intentionally or accidentally. To begin with, the Jewish people were strictly prohibited from offering human sacrifices under any circumstances. There is not one place throughout the entire corpus of the Jewish Scriptures where human sacrifices are condoned. In fact, over and over again, the Bible warns the Jewish people that it is a grave sin to bring a human being as a sacrifice. In the Book of Leviticus, only distinct species of animals are permitted for use in blood sacrifices.

The ancient pagan religions promoted the same idea about atonement as Christendom continues to preach today (e.g. Molech). They would joyfully offer a child into the fires of their sacrificial offering in order to expiate their sins and appease the gods. Why would a child sacrifice be used in this pagan ritual rather than an adult? The reason is that a child is a moving portrait of one who is innocent of sin. A child, they reasoned, could not have committed iniquity and thus mirrored the animal sacrifice which also had to be unblemished. The Torah therefore condemned human sacrifices, and forewarned Jewish people of terrible consequences if this commandment were violated."

for more: https://outreachjudaism.org/jesus-death-atone-for-sin/

"Salvation in Islam:
As mentioned earlier, Islam rejects the idea that a human being is born sinner due to the original sin of Adam. On the contrary, Islam teaches us that a human being is born sinless and inclined to worship Allah. This fact is proven true by a study conducted by Oxford University over three years. To keep the state of sinlessness, a human being must only follow the commandments of Allah and strive to live a righteous life. In case a person indulges into sins, he/she distant themselves from the mercy of Allah, however, sincere repentance brings a person back to Allah.


Allah says in the Qur’an:


And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another… (Fatir 35:18)


This leads us to the fundamental question, what is the mechanism of being sinless in Islam? What could a human being do in case of committing a sin?


It is a part of the human nature that a human being is prone to error and mistake whether deliberately or just a bad intention. Islam teaches us that Allah is the Most forgiving, Most Gracious, and the Most Merciful. Therefore, as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness. Throughout the Qur’an Allah continually asks us to turn to Him in repentance and ask for His forgiveness. This is the road to salvation. This is our rescue from destruction. Muslims believe that this concept of repentance is shared by all the Prophets including Moses and Jesus not something newly brought by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is narrated that the Prophet Muhammad said: “The one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin.” (Ibn Majah)"
 
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TokiEl

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It is a part of the human nature that a human being is prone to error and mistake whether deliberately or just a bad intention. Islam teaches us that Allah is the Most forgiving, Most Gracious, and the Most Merciful. Therefore, as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness. Throughout the Qur’an Allah continually asks us to turn to Him in repentance and ask for His forgiveness. This is the road to salvation. This is our rescue from destruction. Muslims believe that this concept of repentance is shared by all the Prophets including Moses and Jesus not something newly brought by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is narrated that the Prophet Muhammad said: “The one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin.” (Ibn Majah)"
That's right.

YHWH in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New Testament preach repentance.


God of the bible freely forgive penitents... not because YHWH is unjust but because He paid the price for their crimes.
 
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Thank you for taking the time and for responding!

A) Yup.

A2) Interesting response. I can see you put a lot of thought into this and you're no slouch, in fact I agree with most of what you've said here. Key question for you though: what if some, or better yet, a minority, WERE obedient?
They’d either have their enclave where they’d be taken care of OR they’d still be in captivity with the rest of their brothers would be my answer to your question. What doesn’t happen is the nation gets regathered without repenting, without the rebels being purged from the community before entering the land, without meeting God face to face in the wilderness. The nation of Israel, according to the Bible, cannot exist until these things happen. And since they didn’t the ONLY conclusion is that either the Bible is false OR the events that the Bible is referring to haven’t happened yet

Moses was NOT a Zionist. Zionism didn't exist until the 1800s. Zionism goes against the Word of God, the Law that G-d gave to Moses.
Well here’s the definition of Zionism:

  1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.

Did Moses have a movement for the establishment development and protection of an Israelite nation? Yes. Did he kill/war for it? Yes.

You don't seem to know the difference between Israel and Judah. (That's okay, most people don't). But it's extremely relative to what I'm getting at with all this. Jews have been in the territory now called Israel (incorrectly, I might add, but that's a whole other can of worms) (note that I said JEWS, but not Israelites - that's important) living peacefully with Arabs right up until Britain came in and messed everything up, although the Jews loathe to admit it. However, they were definitely in the minority. This is key: There were none from the House of Israel, just the tribe of Judah.

Other than going by their word that they are who they say they are, how would you prove it? Because the book that is supposedly about them says they wouldn’t enter the land until meeting God face to face. And then when meeting God face to face before entering the land, the rebels amongst Israel would be purged from the community. That’s in Ezekiel 20 btw. And before all this they’d have to repent to even get Gods attention again.If none of these things happened the way the Bible says it would, then how is the book about them?
 

meximonk

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Well here’s the definition of Zionism:

  1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
Did Moses have a movement for the establishment development and protection of an Israelite nation? Yes. Did he kill/war for it? Yes.

You seem to forget that ZIonism also is pragmatic; Moses was most certainly not a pragmatist, nor is anyone who obeys G-d.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Well here’s the definition of Zionism:

  1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
Now we are getting somewhere interesting.

You can have any word and define it a number of ways. In that way, you might end up using the same word and continually misunderstand one another.

To illustrate, the word “martyr” has held a variety of meanings, from a sincere follower of a faith, to someone who is killed for not denying their faith, to someone who kills others (and dies in the process) for their faith. Obviously when talking of a “martyr” you would need to define which one you mean!

I see at least four definitions of “Zionism” - after all, what is a word other than the meaning someone assigns to it? These meanings share aspects in their definitions and also diverge from one another. Here’s my attempt at making sense of the various meanings I have come across:-

Zionism (type A) - This would be the expectations a dispassionate reader might have based on God’s OT prophetic statements about a future return of the Jews to the land of Israel.

Zionism (type B) - The specific Jewish interpretation which blends nationalistic political aspirations and rabbinic teachings with those OT prophecies.

Zionism (type C) - The “Dispensational” Christian interpretation which looks at both OT and NT prophecies in connection with Israel (and takes a futuristic view of Bible prophecy). This looks at the re-establishment of Israel in 1948 as the beginning of the “fig tree” generation and is prompted to take Bible prophecy more seriously as a result (as it may have immediate application within our lifetime).

Zionism (type D) - An increasingly popular perspective which sees Israel opportunistically riding on the wave of A, B and C to achieve a global power play. This typically involves infiltration of media and politics by the “Synagogue of Satan” in order to achieve it’s hidden aspirations (frequently referencing the Machiavellian plans set out in “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion”) This view is popular with secular conspiracy theorists, many Muslims and often with Christians who believe the Church has replaced Israel.

Which one of these definitions you mean when you use the word “Zionist” will depend to a large degree on your existing wider beliefs.
 
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Nobodybuthere

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Is it true that Jews stole their God Yahwe from other nation, there is a theory that Yahwe was firstly the God of Amalekites then Jews destroyed the country and stole the heritage and the God of them. As we know Jews still say that their God wants them to exterminate Amalekites as if they won't do it the God will destroy themselves. Does it mean that to stay safe they need to make the massacre of the true God's nation?
I ask it here because Zionists claim that before the end days they need to get rid of Amalekites.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Is it true that Jews stole their God Yahwe from other nation, there is a theory that Yahwe was firstly the God of Amalekites then Jews destroyed the country and stole the heritage and the God of them.
An interesting question - to answer it with any clarity you would have to determine external evidence of what the Hebrews believed before they came into the Land of Canaan to verify or falsify the claim.

For investigation...

 

Nobodybuthere

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An interesting question - to answer it with any clarity you would have to determine external evidence of what the Hebrews believed before they came into the Land of Canaan to verify or falsify the claim.

For investigation...

Thank you, I will watch it later. I usually don't believe to such a theory but something is really fishy with the Bible and Jews God, because if it is the same God who wants people not to kill each other, so why does he say to jews kill Amalekites, and if they don't destroy Amalekites the God will get rid of jews. There are some researches about Amalek having the territory of ancient Israel, and Amalekites were called also shasu-yahweh as they worshiped Yahweh. It is an interesting theory and till nowadays jews are trying to kill the descendants of Amalek as they say. We know that the history is a falsification and everything can be true even if we couldn't imagine.
There is one thing that makes me more interested in this question. Jesus was invited by Armenian king Abgar ( jews say that Armenians are Amalekites) to cure his illness. In the letter the Armenian king names Jesus as the son of Elohim. I don't think that the king will write to the son of a god that doesn't have any connections to his country. In the answer of Jesus there is a part where he says that his mission is not needed in the place where people believe him, so he will stay among jews who didn't trust him. Maybe I am wrong but the hatred of jews against Amalekites is real and if you want a proof just read about Jewish leaders of the process of leading the Armenian genocide in 1915.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Thank you, I will watch it later. I usually don't believe to such a theory but something is really fishy with the Bible and Jews God, because if it is the same God who wants people not to kill each other, so why does he say to jews kill Amalekites, and if they don't destroy Amalekites the God will get rid of jews. There are some researches about Amalek having the territory of ancient Israel, and Amalekites were called also shasu-yahweh as they worshiped Yahweh. It is an interesting theory and till nowadays jews are trying to kill the descendants of Amalek as they say. We know that the history is a falsification and everything can be true even if we couldn't imagine.
There is one thing that makes me more interested in this question. Jesus was invited by Armenian king Abgar ( jews say that Armenians are Amalekites) to cure his illness. In the letter the Armenian king names Jesus as the son of Elohim. I don't think that the king will write to the son of a god that doesn't have any connections to his country. In the answer of Jesus there is a part where he says that his mission is not needed in the place where people believe him, so he will stay among jews who didn't trust him. Maybe I am wrong but the hatred of jews against Amalekites is real and if you want a proof just read about Jewish leaders of the process of leading the Armenian genocide in 1915.
I think the answers to your question are more likely to be in the imprint of the ancient past than in the actions of the great (n) grand children. Here is a video summary of some of the evidences that are coming to light (from the source I quoted earlier).


P.a. You state that “Jesus was invited by Armenian king Abgar ( jews say that Armenians are Amalekites) to cure his illness.” Do you have a Bible reference for this?
 

Nobodybuthere

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I think the answers to your question are more likely to be in the imprint of the ancient past than in the actions of the great (n) grand children. Here is a video summary of some of the evidences that are coming to light (from the source I quoted earlier).


P.a. You state that “Jesus was invited by Armenian king Abgar ( jews say that Armenians are Amalekites) to cure his illness.” Do you have a Bible reference for this?
Thank you for the information.
There is no mention in Bible.
 

recure

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I guess Paul wasn’t a believer.



Acts 22:3 - I am verily a man which am a Jew ...
What St. Paul meant when he said he is a Jew was that he is a Judean (a native of that country), since that is what a Jew was at the time, other than someone belonging to the Tribe of Judah (the only "ethnic Jews"). St. Paul was speaking in Jeruaslem and said "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel..." In other words, from Cilicia by birth, but from Judea by upbringing, inasmuch as it was a country of the Roman Empire. A country then could have several different tribes or ethnic groups living there, as was the case in ancient Judea, and as is the case in countries today.

When it comes to St. Paul's ethnicity, he tells us that in another place: "of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews" (Philippians 3:5). The descendants of Jacob were the Hebrews which inhabited ancient Canaan/Israel/Palestine and other parts of the Levant. However, after the Kingdom was divided and portions of it were ruled by various empires, the national and ethnic makeup changed and ethnic rivalries formed, such as between the Jews (southern Israel) and the Samaritans (northern Israel).

Also there was no "Jewish faith" as such; the Jews belonged to different "schools of jurisprudence" as regards the tradition of properly interpreting the Law, chiefly the Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes: "in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless." But if there was any such religion, then it ended when the Temple was the destroyed and the old rite of atonement for sin was nullified. What we know as the "Jewish faith" is post-Talmudic Pharisaism which has also splintered into various sects. Judaism is the religion of Judas, simple as.

More proof that the Jews were a people from a particular region or country: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." What are we to deduce from this verse? That there were no Jews in Galilee? But wasn't Jesus a Jew? Jesus was both a Jew by birth as he was born in Bethlehem, in Judea, and by ethnicity, as he was a Hebrew of the Tribe of Judah. But he lived in "Galilee of the Gentiles", specifically Nazareth which was derided by others: "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" (John 1:46). The Jews prided themselves on their supposed ethnic purity and heritage but Christ told them: "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham... Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:39,44)

"And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it. Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man. And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place. When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a Galilæan. And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time." (Luke 23:3-7)
 
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Well here’s the definition of Zionism:

  1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
Did Moses have a movement for the establishment development and protection of an Israelite nation? Yes. Did he kill/war for it? Yes.

You seem to forget that ZIonism also is pragmatic; Moses was most certainly not a pragmatist, nor is anyone who obeys G-d.
I’m not gonna lie I had no idea what pragmatic really meant so I googled it and the definition I got was dealing with things in a REASONABLE and SENSIBLE way. Would I say the zionists that move in a reasonable and sensible way when it comes to their plans? Not really. I would say, all things considered, Moses was pragmatic just probably not in the modern sense of the word since most people think of the occurrences of the Bible as unreasonable and lacking sense.(myth)

So all I’m saying is on the outside looking in, its all conquest of land. The difference being that one (at least I believe) was commanded by God as a promise to Abraham and the other was in regards to a punishment by God against Israel. The latter referring to the modern day “zionists” playing dress up as Israelites or even Judah if that’s where you take it.
 
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Thank you, I will watch it later. I usually don't believe to such a theory but something is really fishy with the Bible and Jews God, because if it is the same God who wants people not to kill each other, so why does he say to jews kill Amalekites, and if they don't destroy Amalekites the God will get rid of jews. There are some researches about Amalek having the territory of ancient Israel, and Amalekites were called also shasu-yahweh as they worshiped Yahweh. It is an interesting theory and till nowadays jews are trying to kill the descendants of Amalek as they say. We know that the history is a falsification and everything can be true even if we couldn't imagine.
The law you’re looking for is thou shall not murder, which is the UNLAWFUL taking of life. It can’t be unlawful if the lawgiver/judge is telling you to do it.

Like it’s illegal/unlawful for cops to go in your house and look for things. BUT if the “lawgiver/judge” gives them a warrant (I.e. permission) then this formerly unlawful act becomes lawful. Same concept
 
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meximonk

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I’m not gonna lie I had no idea what pragmatic really meant so I googled it and the definition I got was dealing with things in a REASONABLE and SENSIBLE way. Would I say the zionists that move in a reasonable and sensible way when it comes to their plans? Not really. I would say, all things considered, Moses was pragmatic just probably not in the modern sense of the word since most people think of the occurrences of the Bible as unreasonable and lacking sense.(myth)

So all I’m saying is on the outside looking in, its all conquest of land. The difference being that one (at least I believe) was commanded by God as a promise to Abraham and the other was in regards to a punishment by God against Israel. The latter referring to the modern day “zionists” playing dress up as Israelites or even Judah if that’s where you take it.
The traditional definition of pragmatism, like that used in published whitepapers, not Google (I don't use google and code my own software for Linux OS's that blocks it), is doing anything and everything, in short whatever it takes, to accomplish a goal, no matter the cost, because pragmatics believe, just like the Illuminati, that the end justifies the means. Pragmatics are Satanists.
 
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