Zionism: Is it Biblical?

Thunderian

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The message of the Quran is that the books that are with the people of the book do not conform with the original revelations given to the prophets Moses, Jesus and David peace be upon them.
The provenance of the Bible as we have it today is accepted by scholars without question, meaning that the scripture we have now is the same as when it was written, aside from maybe an inconsequential word or two. @Red Sky at Morning can point you to deeper studies, if you’re interested.

The Muslim argument that the Bible has been corrupted and that the affirmation of it contained in the Quran is out of date isn’t borne out by any evidence at all. If you’re going to use the old corruption argument, you’re going to need to show your work.
 

Tidal

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...symbol and allegory. Let's face it, there was no real exodus and parting of the red sea..

Whoa Charlie, there was a TV science documentary a while back that examined the exodus from Egypt and the 10 Plagues etc, and came up with a good explanation for each one and concluded that it may well have happened..:)
 

meximonk

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Okay, let's try to stear this back to the purpose of the thread. While I enjoy hearing the non-relative viewpoints, the fact of the matter is, the thread was entitled, "Zionism: Is it biblical?" I didn't ask if it was right or wrong according to the Qu'ran, or any other Faith. I asked if it was Biblical. And for those who don't know Zionism isn't all about getting the land for the Jews, it's more about HOW it is acquired.

Shall I rephrase the question?

Does Zionism contradict with what the Judeo Christian bible teaches?
 

shankara

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@meximonk... though actually I think that the thing about Israel in the Bible etc is both real and symbolic. On one hand it describes a state of mind and being, the experience of life that a truly spiritual person has, which really is like a "land of milk and honey". At the same time, I think that the land of Palestine or Israel is in fact the heart chakra of the world, a centre of spiritual force. If things were going well on this planet (as they certainly aren't in Kali Yuga, the age of degeneration of the Buddha's Dharma) then it would radiate peace, love and joy to the whole planet. The fact that such a sacred place has become the host of such a horrific conflict with so much bloodshed - and undeniably with fanatics and violent people on both sides, though perhaps more on one than the other - is a sad reflection of human life at the present time.
 

meximonk

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@meximonk... though actually I think that the thing about Israel in the Bible etc is both real and symbolic. On one hand it describes a state of mind and being, the experience of life that a truly spiritual person has, which really is like a "land of milk and honey". At the same time, I think that the land of Palestine or Israel is in fact the heart chakra of the world, a centre of spiritual force. If things were going well on this planet (as they certainly aren't in Kali Yuga, the age of degeneration of the Buddha's Dharma) then it would radiate peace, love and joy to the whole planet. The fact that such a sacred place has become the host of such a horrific conflict with so much bloodshed - and undeniably with fanatics and violent people on both sides, though perhaps more on one than the other - is a sad reflection of human life at the present time.
That's interesting, but, per the topic at hand, do you think that Zionism contradicts with what the Holy Books of Christians and Jews say?
 

phipps

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Zionism is not biblical. Many Christians talk about the modern state of Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and a Middle East Armageddon. Many Christians see a connection between end time Bible prophecy and Israel. But end-time prophecies in the Bible regarding Israel and the temple aren't speaking of the literal nation of the Jews and a physical building, there is a deeper spiritual application to them. The biblical idea of Israel is not what a lot of Christians are taught sadly. And many don't study their Bibles to search for themselves the truth of God's Word, they just listen to what is being taught to them in their churches.

I posted this in my thread True Israel. I will re-post here too.

The kingdom divides

Solomon’s ill-chosen path set the kingdom on a road from which there would be no recovery. Because of Solomon’s sins, God announced that He would tear the kingdom away from him and give it to one of Solomon’s subjects (1 Kings 11:11-13). Indeed, most of the kingdom would split away to follow a rival; only a minority would remain to follow Solomon’s son and the kings of David’s line.

This prophecy was fulfilled a few years later at Solomon’s death when most of the tribes broke away to follow Jeroboam, leader of the northern kingdom, Israel. The rest remained with Solomon’s successor, Rehoboam, leader of the southern kingdom of Judah (1 Kings 12; 2 Chronicles 10-11). The two kingdoms would become rivals—and sometimes enemies—for the next two centuries.

Most people assume that the Jews and Israelites are one and the same. But this is clearly not true. Any look at history and these relevant Bible chapters shows they were two separate kingdoms, the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah (from which the term Jew is derived). As an interesting historical note, the first time the word Jews appears in the Bible, it is in 2 Kings 16:5-6 (King James Version) where Israel is allied with another king and at war with the Jews.

Israel’s first king, Jeroboam, quickly established a pattern of idolatry and syncretism (mixing elements of true and false worship) from which the northern kingdom would never depart (1 Kings 12:26-33). God sent many prophets to warn the Israelite kings of the destruction that would come their way if they didn’t return to Him.

The first of these was Ahijah, who gave this warning to Jeroboam’s wife: “For the LORD will strike Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water. He will uproot Israel from this good land which He gave to their fathers, and will scatter them beyond the River …” (1 Kings 14:15).

This was a clear pronouncement of the northern kingdom’s fate if they wouldn’t repent—they would be taken captive “beyond the River” (the Euphrates) at the hands of the coming Assyrian Empire.

Many other prophets followed, repeating God’s warnings to the Israelites and their kings, pleading with them to repent lest they suffer that awful fate. Among these prophets were Amos, Hosea, Isaiah and Micah, whose messages are recorded for us in the biblical books that bear their names.

But the messages of these prophets went unheeded. Finally, in 722 B.C., after a series of attacks, invasions and deportations, the northern kingdom was crushed and its people carried away into captivity at the hands of the Assyrians—”beyond the River” as God had warned their first king two centuries earlier.

Judah follows in Israel’s footsteps

The story of Judah, the southern kingdom, is somewhat different though equally tragic. Both kingdoms quickly abandoned the true God and sank into moral and spiritual depravity. While the northern kingdom never once had a righteous king, Judah at least had a handful who turned to God and instituted religious reforms aimed at turning the people to proper worship of the true God.

These righteous kings were somewhat successful, at least for a while. As a result, the kingdom of Judah outlasted its northern neighbour by more than a century. Yet eventually those in Judah, too, would pay a heavy price for rejecting their Creator.

They should have learned a lesson from the captivity of the 10 northern tribes, especially since some of the same Assyrian invasions devastated much of Judah. In Hezekiah’s day virtually all of Judah except for its capital, Jerusalem, was conquered by the Assyrians—and Jerusalem, too, would have fallen had God not supernaturally delivered the city (2 Kings 18-19).

The prophet Isaiah, speaking to Hezekiah, was the first to reveal the specific enemy that would subjugate Judah if they, too, refused to change: “… ‘Behold, the days are coming when all that is in your house, and what your fathers have accumulated until this day, shall be carried to Babylon; nothing shall be left,’ says the LORD. ‘And they shall take away some of your sons who will descend from you, whom you will beget; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon’ ” (2 Kings 20:16-18).

God sent many other prophets—including Micah, Zephaniah, Habakkuk and Jeremiah—to warn Judah, but to no avail. As the Assyrians vanquished the Israelites in several waves of invasions and deportations, so the Babylonians took away the Jews in several deportations before and after the fall of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. Many details of the biblical accounts of the downfalls of Israel and Judah are confirmed by Assyrian and Babylonian records from the time, demonstrating again the accuracy of the biblical record.

Judah’s exile and return

The outcome of Judah’s exile, however, was far different from that of the northern kingdom. Israel was deported to the far reaches of the Assyrian Empire and its people lost their national and ethnic identity. But God gave Judah an encouraging promise through this prophecy from Jeremiah:

“For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity …” (Jeremiah 29:10-14).

Here, too, we find a remarkable prophecy that was fulfilled to the letter. This 70-year period appears to have begun with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of Solomon’s temple—the centre of Jewish worship—in 586 B.C. and to have concluded with the completion of a new Jerusalem temple in 516 B.C. The biblical books of Ezra and Nehemiah record the return of many of the Jewish exiles from Babylon.
 
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Thunderian

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Does Zionism contradict with what the Judeo Christian bible teaches?
Another good question might be: Does singling out Israel for special condemnation, and repeating falsehood after falsehood about it, contradict what the Bible teaches? I think that’s an obvious yes.
 
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As I understand, Zionism is Biblical in the sense that the Jews traditionally believed they were scattered throughout the world for their sins, and that if all of them purified their souls and atoned for their sins, God would lead them to "Israel", which is either a representation of paradise regained, the celestial Jerusalem, or a place where they would live in harmony.

There is nothing in the Bible that said the Stern Gang and Irgun should start kidnapping, bombing, murdering, stealing, manipulating, others in order to establish a nation which rules with an iron fist, based on the notions of Jewish racial supremacy.

Also, the Judeans only controlled one city in the region, while other tribes lived there as well. So if they want to return to where they were at a certain point in their post-fall history, the land of Palestine, they would return to that city, and not expand their territory again because of greed and ambition
 

meximonk

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Zionism is not biblical. Many Christians talk about the modern state of Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and a Middle East Armageddon. Many Christians see a connection between end time Bible prophecy and Israel. But end-time prophecies in the Bible regarding Israel and the temple aren't speaking of the literal nation of the Jews and a physical building, there is a deeper spiritual application to them. The biblical idea of Israel is not what a lot of Christians are taught sadly. and many don't study their Bibles to search for themselves the truth of God's Word, they just listen to what is being taught to them in their churches.

I posted this in my thread True Israel. I will re-post here too.

The kingdom divides

Solomon’s ill-chosen path set the kingdom on a road from which there would be no recovery. Because of Solomon’s sins, God announced that He would tear the kingdom away from him and give it to one of Solomon’s subjects (1 Kings 11:11-13). Indeed, most of the kingdom would split away to follow a rival; only a minority would remain to follow Solomon’s son and the kings of David’s line.

This prophecy was fulfilled a few years later at Solomon’s death when most of the tribes broke away to follow Jeroboam, leader of the northern kingdom, Israel. The rest remained with Solomon’s successor, Rehoboam, leader of the southern kingdom of Judah (1 Kings 12; 2 Chronicles 10-11). The two kingdoms would become rivals—and sometimes enemies—for the next two centuries.

Most people assume that the Jews and Israelites are one and the same. But this is clearly not true. Any look at history and these relevant Bible chapters shows they were two separate kingdoms, the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah (from which the term Jew is derived). As an interesting historical note, the first time the word Jews appears in the Bible, it is in 2 Kings 16:5-6 (King James Version) where Israel is allied with another king and at war with the Jews.

Israel’s first king, Jeroboam, quickly established a pattern of idolatry and syncretism (mixing elements of true and false worship) from which the northern kingdom would never depart (1 Kings 12:26-33). God sent many prophets to warn the Israelite kings of the destruction that would come their way if they didn’t return to Him.

The first of these was Ahijah, who gave this warning to Jeroboam’s wife: “For the LORD will strike Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water. He will uproot Israel from this good land which He gave to their fathers, and will scatter them beyond the River …” (1 Kings 14:15).

This was a clear pronouncement of the northern kingdom’s fate if they wouldn’t repent—they would be taken captive “beyond the River” (the Euphrates) at the hands of the coming Assyrian Empire.

Many other prophets followed, repeating God’s warnings to the Israelites and their kings, pleading with them to repent lest they suffer that awful fate. Among these prophets were Amos, Hosea, Isaiah and Micah, whose messages are recorded for us in the biblical books that bear their names.

But the messages of these prophets went unheeded. Finally, in 722 B.C., after a series of attacks, invasions and deportations, the northern kingdom was crushed and its people carried away into captivity at the hands of the Assyrians—”beyond the River” as God had warned their first king two centuries earlier.

Judah follows in Israel’s footsteps

The story of Judah, the southern kingdom, is somewhat different though equally tragic. Both kingdoms quickly abandoned the true God and sank into moral and spiritual depravity. While the northern kingdom never once had a righteous king, Judah at least had a handful who turned to God and instituted religious reforms aimed at turning the people to proper worship of the true God.

These righteous kings were somewhat successful, at least for a while. As a result, the kingdom of Judah outlasted its northern neighbour by more than a century. Yet eventually those in Judah, too, would pay a heavy price for rejecting their Creator.

They should have learned a lesson from the captivity of the 10 northern tribes, especially since some of the same Assyrian invasions devastated much of Judah. In Hezekiah’s day virtually all of Judah except for its capital, Jerusalem, was conquered by the Assyrians—and Jerusalem, too, would have fallen had God not supernaturally delivered the city (2 Kings 18-19).

The prophet Isaiah, speaking to Hezekiah, was the first to reveal the specific enemy that would subjugate Judah if they, too, refused to change: “… ‘Behold, the days are coming when all that is in your house, and what your fathers have accumulated until this day, shall be carried to Babylon; nothing shall be left,’ says the LORD. ‘And they shall take away some of your sons who will descend from you, whom you will beget; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon’ ” (2 Kings 20:16-18).

God sent many other prophets—including Micah, Zephaniah, Habakkuk and Jeremiah—to warn Judah, but to no avail. As the Assyrians vanquished the Israelites in several waves of invasions and deportations, so the Babylonians took away the Jews in several deportations before and after the fall of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. Many details of the biblical accounts of the downfalls of Israel and Judah are confirmed by Assyrian and Babylonian records from the time, demonstrating again the accuracy of the biblical record.

Judah’s exile and return

The outcome of Judah’s exile, however, was far different from that of the northern kingdom. Israel was deported to the far reaches of the Assyrian Empire and its people lost their national and ethnic identity. But God gave Judah an encouraging promise through this prophecy from Jeremiah:

“For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity …” (Jeremiah 29:10-14).

Here, too, we find a remarkable prophecy that was fulfilled to the letter. This 70-year period appears to have begun with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of Solomon’s temple—the centre of Jewish worship—in 586 B.C. and to have concluded with the completion of a new Jerusalem temple in 516 B.C. The biblical books of Ezra and Nehemiah record the return of many of the Jewish exiles from Babylon.
VERY well said, my Friend. We are in complete agreement. You are speaking to a Hebrew who reads the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I am hated by Jew and Christian alike because I teach these same things, and more. I was unaware of your thread and will make a note of it immediately. Thank you for your response!
 

meximonk

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Another good question might be: Does singling out Israel for special condemnation, and repeating falsehood after falsehood about it, contradict what the Bible teaches? I think that’s an obvious yes.
Friend, may you be blessed in your eagerness to be in obedience to God for blessing in Israel. I believe your heart in that regard is in the right place. Just be sure that you are not deceived. Eretz-Yisreal belongs to the people of Yisrael, but many who believe that they are Israel/Judah are not, and many who don't know who they are actually belong to Israel. Prophecies abound regarding the 2 Houses of Israel; Ephraim has yet to return, and realize who he is, for the most part. If a fire burns in your heart for Israel, then you must ask yourself why God put it there. The answer to that question might be more important to you than you know. Short of receiving the Messiah, it may perhaps be the most important thing to you.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Another good question might be: Does singling out Israel for special condemnation, and repeating falsehood after falsehood about it, contradict what the Bible teaches? I think that’s an obvious yes.
What is beginning to grow in my mind is the conviction that none of the posturing and criticising matters a bean. Zechariah talks of Jerusalem becoming a “cup of trembling”. However persuasive a comment, however many likes it may garner, God will do precisely His own will, without reference to the popularity of particular cherished critiques!!!
 

meximonk

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What is beginning to grow in my mind is the conviction that none of the posturing and criticising matters a bean. Zechariah talks of Jerusalem becoming a “cup of trembling”. However persuasive a comment, however many likes it may garner, God will do precisely His own will, without reference to the popularity of particular cherished critiques!!!
Like a very wise Grandfather of mine from Kentucky once said, "Yuuup." ;)
 

phipps

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VERY well said, my Friend. We are in complete agreement. You are speaking to a Hebrew who reads the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I am hated by Jew and Christian alike because I teach these same things, and more. I was unaware of your thread and will make a note of it immediately. Thank you for your response!
I have another thread on the heavenly Temple/Sanctuary. This is written of in the Bible especially the book of Hebrews and completely contradicts Zionism on the subject of the earthly temple they believe is going to be rebuilt. Its not an easy subject to understand, we have to pray and study and want to understand the Bible on this subject (it took me years and I still don't understand a lot of it), but when understood, the Bible is clear that and earthly temple after Jesus' death is pointless since Christ is the High Priest in the heavenly temple. To rebuild an earthly temple is to reject Christ's sacrifice since the whole sanctuary/temple system and its ceremonies were about Christ's sacrifice for us.
 
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phipps

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In the book of Daniel God cut off a probationary period for the Jews, this was their last chance to change and come back to Him for good.

"Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins,To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times" (Daniel 9:24-25).

The prophet Daniel was in captivity in Babylon with his people the Jews because of their sins. Daniel prayed and pleaded with God for deliverance. The angel Gabriel then came and pronounced a prophetic time period for the nation of Israel to repent from their sins and reconnect with their God. In Bible prophecy, each day represents a year. ". . . I have appointed thee each day for a year" (Ezekiel 4:6). Do seventy is 490 literal years. The prophecy says, "And to anoint the Most Holy. “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times." The Most Holy and Messiah the Prince is Christ.

When Jesus came to earth, the Jews rejected Him. They had prophecies about the coming of the Messiah but did not recognise Him when He was with and amongst them. The 490 years probationary period ended three and half years after Jesus was crucified. Israel was no longer a chosen nation. As a group of people they had rejected God for the last time. Jesus had told the Jews Himself, "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:43-44).

That nation was the Gentiles. The meaning of Israel changed in the New Testament. In Romans 11:17-24, Paul speaks of the olive tree that represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree.

The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted:

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him" (Romans 10:12).

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26).

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:5-7).

The new Israel (Jews and Gentiles) inherits God’s covenant promises. Those who have accepted Christ become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (Compare 1 Peter 2:9-10 with Exodus 19:5-6).

Whenever the Bible talks about Israel in end time prophecy, it is not talking about the literal nation of Israel or genetic Jews (they are very few). It is talking about all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and submit fully to Him regardless of race or nation. They are all Israel in the New Covenant.

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (Romans 9:6).

"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Philippians 3:3).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:28-29).
 
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TokiEl

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It's also biblical that YHWH's wrath will be kindled when Gog and gang make a surprise attack against israel.


I might 4get but i will type YHWH from here on since muslims might think i mean their idol when i type god.
 

TokiEl

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When will Gog and gang feel lucky and go for it...?

That's the question.
 

Thunderian

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@phipps has his set pieces against Israel, but he’s never been able to explain Isaiah 2 and other passages in the Bible that speak of a future Israel that is in God’s favour and that occupies their land. If God has finished with Israel, a lot of the Bible is just simply lies.
 
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shankara

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That's interesting, but, per the topic at hand, do you think that Zionism contradicts with what the Holy Books of Christians and Jews say?
Well if you take "Zion" to be a symbolic description of a spiritual state, then clearly it has nothing to do with occupying some particular territory. If you believe in the teachings of the New Testament, a God of love and forgiveness, or even interpret the Old Testament not as literally commanding war and destruction but as analogies of psychological and spiritual processes, you certainly can't justify taking land by force and military might. Isn't the whole story of the "Babylonian captivity" about being oppressed? Then acting as the oppressor, using force to drive people from their lands, this completely contradicts the whole spirit of the Biblical stories.
 
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