Zionism: Is it Biblical?

[meximonk]

I've been in the middle of this topic by the very nature of who I am, and I hear all sides of it from Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, and Atheists.

I have my own views on it, but they're not completely solidified. It's enough to say that I lean very heavily against it.

But what I'm looking for are Biblical references (Scriptures, passages) (from apocrypha too) that you believe support Zionism or go against it. I'm not looking to debate the issue, I'm looking to see things / points of view that I might have missed that may solidify my current stance or take me back from it. In short, I seek truth. Thanks in advance.

 

[Thunderian]

Jews are the indigenous people of what is now called Palestine, and objectively, by the world’s own standards, have more of a claim to it than any other people. A person doesn’t have to be a Christian to agree with that.

I support Israel because it’s the decent thing to do, not because I’m a Christian.

Edit to add: But if you need a verse, you can’t go wrong with this one.

Genesis 12:3 (KJV)
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[DesertRose]

Jews are the indigenous people of what is now called Palestine, and objectively, by the world’s own standards, have more of a claim to it than any other people. A person doesn’t have to be a Christian to agree with that.

I support Israel because it’s the decent thing to do, not because I’m a Christian.

Edit to add: But if you need a verse, you can’t go wrong with this one.

Genesis 12:3 (KJV)
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

For your reasoning purposes :

 

[Thunderian]

For your reasoning purposes :

If you were as familiar with the Bible as Muslims try and pretend to be, you would understand that only the line of Isaac and Jacob is considered to be heirs to the promise. It’s all there in scripture, should you care to read it.

 

[Thunderian]

Laugh it up, but you know I’m right. The promises made to Abraham regarding his seed were confirmed to Isaac and Jacob, not to Ishmael or any of his descendants.

 

[DesertRose]

We are more worthy of Prophet Abraham peace be upon him and Muslims bless him and honor him daily.
Here is the story of Abraham peace be upon him for those who are interested:

The Story of Ibrahim

The story of Ibrahim is greatly associated with Hajj because the origin of Hajj is as old as the Kaaba, which was built by Ibrahim and his son, Ismail.

www.islamicity.org

BTW God does not need a son to forgive people.
God is sufficient for forgiveness!
God does not need others!
Good forgives freely without those pagan beliefs about sacrificing an innocent. You just need to repent.

In Islam righteousness is based on moral actions not lineage which would be a satanic concept.(my people right or wrong does not cut it!)
That secular state is criminal in every sense of the word.

“O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes for you to know one another. Truly, the noblest of you with God is the most pious.[2] Truly, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” (Quran 49:13)

"There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him


By no means shall you attain righteousness unless you give (freely) of that which you love; and whatever you give, Allah knows it well.”

Quran (SurahAal-e-Imran, Verse 92)

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and gives the Zakat, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are AlMuttaqoon (pious).
Quran (Surah Al-Baqarah, Verse 177)

“And if only the people of the cities had believed and feared Allah, We would have opened upon them blessings from the heaven and the earth; but they denied [the messengers], so We seized them for what they were earning.” [Quran, 7: 96]

“Oh you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a better protector to both (than you). So follow not your lusts, lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witnesses or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is ever well acquainted with what you do.”
(Surah Nisa: 135)

May the Creator guide you to that which is better. Ameen!

 

[shankara]

Jews are the indigenous people of what is now called Palestine, and objectively, by the world’s own standards, have more of a claim to it than any other people.

So you're also in favor of giving North and South America back to their indigenous peoples? Even if they then create a heavily armed military state and start herding the present occupants onto reservations surrounded by walls, not even giving them any living space and confiscating houses for "archaeological" reasons without compensation? Not to mention driving hundreds of thousands from their land and forcing them to live in refugee camps.

Personally I'm totally in favor of helping out indigenous peoples who have been dispossessed and even nearly destroyed by colonialism. But in this case I don't see how the Israelis can be considered indigenous, rather they are the colonizer in this case. Sure, according to some scriptural book they are the people of the land, but I'm not sure that constitutes a valid claim to a territory, at least not it's exclusive occupation. I've been reading a little of a book named "James the Brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman, which gives a very interesting history of the nationalist movement in Israel at the time of Christ's life, how some groups such as the Essenes resisted the Roman occupation while others, including many of the Pharisees, co-operated with the power in order to gain its favors (like the Herods).

In any case, if we are going to start accepting territorial claims based on occupancy a couple of thousand years ago and claims to land found in religious scriptures, there's going be a serious shake up happening in terms of what territory different peoples are occupying. But I'm sure the Americans and Canadians will grow used to life on reservations soon enough.

 

[Thunderian]

We are more worthy of Prophet Abraham peace be upon him and Muslims bless him and honor him daily.
Here is the story of Abraham peace be upon him for those who are interested:

The Story of Ibrahim

The story of Ibrahim is greatly associated with Hajj because the origin of Hajj is as old as the Kaaba, which was built by Ibrahim and his son, Ismail.

www.islamicity.org

BTW God does not need a son to forgive people.
God is sufficient for forgiveness!
God does not need others!
Good forgives freely without those pagan beliefs about sacrificing an innocent. You just need to repent.

In Islam righteousness is based on moral actions not lineage which would be a satanic concept.(my people right or wrong does not cut it!)
That secular state is criminal in every sense of the word.

“O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female and have made you into nations and tribes for you to know one another. Truly, the noblest of you with God is the most pious.[2] Truly, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” (Quran 49:13)

"There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him


By no means shall you attain righteousness unless you give (freely) of that which you love; and whatever you give, Allah knows it well.”

Quran (SurahAal-e-Imran, Verse 92)



“And if only the people of the cities had believed and feared Allah, We would have opened upon them blessings from the heaven and the earth; but they denied [the messengers], so We seized them for what they were earning.” [Quran, 7: 96]

“Oh you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a better protector to both (than you). So follow not your lusts, lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witnesses or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is ever well acquainted with what you do.”
(Surah Nisa: 135)

May the Creator guide you to that which is better. Ameen!

That’s not what the Bible says, and since the Quran affirms the truth of the Bible, you’ve got a pretty big problem.

 

[Thunderian]

So you're also in favor of giving North and South America back to their indigenous peoples? Even if they then create a heavily armed military state and start herding the present occupants onto reservations surrounded by walls, not even giving them any living space and confiscating houses for "archaeological" reasons without compensation? Not to mention driving hundreds of thousands from their land and forcing them to live in refugee camps.

Personally I'm totally in favor of helping out indigenous peoples who have been dispossessed and even nearly destroyed by colonialism. But in this case I don't see how the Israelis can be considered indigenous, rather they are the colonizer in this case. Sure, according to some scriptural book they are the people of the land, but I'm not sure that constitutes a valid claim to a territory, at least not it's exclusive occupation. I've been reading a little of a book named "James the Brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman, which gives a very interesting history of the nationalist movement in Israel at the time of Christ's life, how some groups such as the Essenes resisted the Roman occupation while others, including many of the Pharisees, co-operated with the power in order to gain its favors (like the Herods).

In any case, if we are going to start accepting territorial claims based on occupancy a couple of thousand years ago and claims to land found in religious scriptures, there's going be a serious shake up happening in terms of what territory different peoples are occupying. But I'm sure the Americans and Canadians will grow used to life on reservations soon enough.

You should learn the actual history of Israel some time. It will clear up some of your misconceptions.

 

[DesertRose]

That’s not what the Bible says, and since the Quran affirms the truth of the Bible, you’ve got a pretty big problem.

The Quran also explains that the previous scriptures have been corrupted:

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Quran 5:13-14)

No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (Quran 6:91)

 

[shankara]

You should learn the actual history of Israel some time. It will clear up some of your misconceptions.

What time period exactly are you referring to? I'm pretty familiar with a lot of the stuff since the occupation, Plan Dalet etc.

 

[pescatarian09]

That’s not what the Bible says, and since the Quran affirms the truth of the Bible, you’ve got a pretty big problem.

Hilarious. In one breath you say the Quran is not God's word, and in another you try to preach our own book to us and say that the Quran tells us the Bible is incorruptible.

No. The Quran contradicts the word of God. You don’t even have to be a Christian to see that.

 

[meximonk]

So you're also in favor of giving North and South America back to their indigenous peoples? Even if they then create a heavily armed military state and start herding the present occupants onto reservations surrounded by walls, not even giving them any living space and confiscating houses for "archaeological" reasons without compensation? Not to mention driving hundreds of thousands from their land and forcing them to live in refugee camps.

Personally I'm totally in favor of helping out indigenous peoples who have been dispossessed and even nearly destroyed by colonialism. But in this case I don't see how the Israelis can be considered indigenous, rather they are the colonizer in this case. Sure, according to some scriptural book they are the people of the land, but I'm not sure that constitutes a valid claim to a territory, at least not it's exclusive occupation. I've been reading a little of a book named "James the Brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman, which gives a very interesting history of the nationalist movement in Israel at the time of Christ's life, how some groups such as the Essenes resisted the Roman occupation while others, including many of the Pharisees, co-operated with the power in order to gain its favors (like the Herods).

In any case, if we are going to start accepting territorial claims based on occupancy a couple of thousand years ago and claims to land found in religious scriptures, there's going be a serious shake up happening in terms of what territory different peoples are occupying. But I'm sure the Americans and Canadians will grow used to life on reservations soon enough.

Thanks for your input.

With the case of the Hebrew claim to the land, it all comes down this:
A) The Bible really is the Word of God, and every word of it in its' original form is true.
B) It's not.

If it is A, then you have a whole set of problems that nobody even considers. Everyone who supports this view believes that "Israel belong to the Jews." But nobody, I say nobody, wants to ask these questions:
A1) Who does the Bible say that the Land of Israel belongs to? Really? Neither Jews nor Palistinians nor the UN are going to like this one.
A2) If it partially belongs to the Jews, are the people claiming to be Jews really them? (I could go for days alone on this one)
A3) If the modern people claiming to be Jews aren't, then who are the real ones?
A4) The Jews are only a fraction of the Hebrews, so where are the rest? Who do we give most of the land to - nobody?
A5) What if we find out that the Jews living there now really arent Jews? What do we do with them?
A6) What if the Jews living there really are Jews, but they are occupying the lands of the rest of the Tribes of Israel?

If it is B, than Darwin was right (he recanted before he died, by the way, but you're not supposed to know that. Do a study on the man's Bio). Survival of the fittest, baby.

Bottom line, if it's A, this is a mess that only the Messiah Himself can straighten out. If it's B, who gives a damn. Humanity's on the verge of destroying itself anyways.

 

[Thunderian]

The Quran also explains that the previous scriptures have been corrupted:

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

And remember Allah took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Quran 5:13-14)

No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (Quran 6:91)

Then what are all these passages talking about? Because it looks like they are affirming that the scripture that came before Muhammad is the real deal and should be followed and believed. The message may have been perverted by people relating it, but the Quran, unless I’m reading it wrong, is saying that the Bible itself is true.



"Allah! There is no God but He, - the Living, the Selfsubsisting, Eternal ... He sent down Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) ... as a guide to mankind." (S. Al-i-Imran 3:2-3).
"0 ye who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Apostle - and the scripture which He sent before them". (S. Nisaa 4:136).

"It was We who revealed the Law (to Moses); therein was guidance and light ... if any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) unbelievers ... We sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light ... a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. LET THE PEOPLE OF THE GOSPEL JUDGE BY WHAT ALLAH HATH REVEALED THERElN. IF ANY DO FAIL TO JUDGE BY THE LIGHT OF WHAT ALLAH HATH REVEALED, THEY ARE (no better than) THOSE WHO REBEL. Judge. . . what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires ... "(S. Ma-ida 5:44,46,47,49).

"People of the Book! ... Stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that hath come to you from YOUR LORD. It is the revelation that has come to thee from THY LORD." (ibid. vs. 68).

"The Quran is ... a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it". (S. Yi'inus 10:37).

"If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee. The truth had indeed come to thee from thy Lord." (ibid. vs. 94).

"AND DISPUTE YE NOT WITH THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK ... BUT SAY: WE BELIEVE IN THE REVELATION WHICH HAS COME DOWN TO US AND THAT WHICH CAME DOWN TO YOU". (S. Ankabut 29:46).

"This is a book which We have revealed, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her." (Sura 6:92).

 

[shankara]

Thanks for your input.

With the case of the Hebrew claim to the land, it all comes down this:
A) The Bible really is the Word of God, and every word of it in its' original form is true.
B) It's not.

If it is A, then you have a whole set of problems that nobody even considers. Everyone who supports this view believes that "Israel belong to the Jews." But nobody, I say nobody, wants to ask these questions:
A1) Who does the Bible say that the Land of Israel belongs to? Really? Neither Jews nor Palistinians nor the UN are going to like this one.
A2) If it partially belongs to the Jews, are the people claiming to be Jews really them? (I could go for days alone on this one)
A3) If the modern people claiming to be Jews aren't, then who are the real ones?
A4) The Jews are only a fraction of the Hebrews, so where are the rest? Who do we give most of the land to - nobody?
A5) What if we find out that the Jews living there now really arent Jews? What do we do with them?
A6) What if the Jews living there really are Jews, but they are occupying the lands of the rest of the Tribes of Israel?

If it is B, than Darwin was right (he recanted before he died, by the way, but you're not supposed to know that. Do a study on the man's Bio). Survival of the fittest, baby.

Bottom line, if it's A, this is a mess that only the Messiah Himself can straighten out. If it's B, who gives a damn. Humanity's on the verge of destroying itself anyways.

Personally I believe the Bible has some wisdom in it. A wisdom which is completely lost if you interpret it as literal fact rather than symbol and allegory. Let's face it, there was no real exodus and parting of the red sea, the whole thing is a story about consciousness and spirit leaving the oppression of ego and the slavery of Egypt (another way of saying Babylon basically, I figure). I was arguing with a guy on here about the story of the "golden calf", he was such a fundamentalist that he thinks it's an actual history and not an allegory about worshiping money ("mammon" as Christ called it).

Many people, the fundamentalist (and generally zionist) "Christians" foremost, have completely lost the capacity to understand the real import of the thing they are reading. It's their literalist interpretation which leads to their support for zionism, along with a whole dose of wierdness about it being necessary for Israel to exist so that they can all be raptured up to live with Jesus in the clouds while all of us heathens descend into eternal hellfire. They are crazy, there is no possibility of having a rational discussion with such people.

 

[Thunderian]

Hilarious. In one breath you say the Quran is not God's word, and in another you try to preach our own book to us and say that the Quran tells us the Bible is incorruptible.

No. I made a statement about what the Quran says about the Bible, not about what I believe the truth of the Quran to be. If the Quran says the Bible is truth, I’m not agreeing with the rest of the Quran simply by pointing that out, am I?

 

[pescatarian09]

No. I made a statement about what the Quran says about the Bible, not about what I believe the truth of the Quran to be. If the Quran says the Bible is truth, I’m not agreeing with the rest of the Quran simply by pointing that out, am I?

The Quran also says:

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness. (48:28)

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (3:85)

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3:52)

It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). (9:33)

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. (3:67)

They say: "[Allah] Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for [Allah] Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of [Allah] Most Gracious that He should beget a son. (19:88-92)

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah [sent] to you, confirming the Law [which came] before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (61:6)

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided [To salvation]." Say thou: "Nay! [I would rather] the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." (2:135)

He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions. (25:2)


From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but
they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent them: So We estranged them,
with enmity and hatred between one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And
soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

O People of the Book! There hath come to you our Apostle, revealing to you
much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now
unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous
Book, --

Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and
safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His Will, unto the light, --
guideth them to a Path that is Straight.

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say
"Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His Will were to destroy
Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all--every one that is on the earth? For
to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is
between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are the sons of Allah, and His
beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,
--of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth. And He punisheth
whom He pleaseth: And to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the
earth, and all that is between: And unto Him is the final goal (of all)."

O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto
you, our Apostle, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye
should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from
evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from
evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
(5:14-19)

 

[DesertRose]

The message may have been perverted by people relating it, but the Quran, unless I’m reading it wrong, is saying that the Bible itself is true.

The message of the Quran is that the books that are with the people of the book do not conform with the original revelations given to the prophets Moses, Jesus and David peace be upon them.

 

[Thunderian]

@pescatarian09, are you laughing at Islamic scripture? Why not explain how I’ve gotten it wrong?

 

[Tidal]

..what I'm looking for are Biblical references (Scriptures, passages) (from apocrypha too) that you believe support Zionism or go against it..

All jews regardless of whether they call themselves Zionists or not, (and all other Jesus -rejecters) are going up the spout on judgment day-
"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot....it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb 10:29-31)