forget about the statement I made about Paul being arrogant. It wasn't the main point I was trying to make and not worth going back and forth about. As far as faith and works you aren't getting my point, but I'm really not worried about it. Jesus said too many things about works for me to ignore. If you want to trust in the words of Paul over the words of Jesus that is your choice. I hope it works out well for you
I trust the Word of God Todd, you are the one who makes distinctions based on your own personal ideologies. I trust all of it in the exact same manner, you clearly throw very direct passages away that is the difference between us that I see. I have stated that I have no problems with Works, neither does Paul, but to make them Salvation Dependent (which in your ideology I dont believe Salvation can truly exist as all things are saved) is where one falls from Grace, as the Word of God clearly states. Faith brings Good Works, there is a desire change in one who is Born Again, but to say one needs Works to get Salvation is contradictory to the Word of God. Salvation is by Grace Alone thru Faith Alone lest anyone boast, it doesnt get much more clear, but if you want to reject clear teachings from the Word of God then so be it the choice is yours, I hope it works out well for you...
Universal Reconciliation in the Bible
Thanks for the verses I am happy to address them and put them in Context for others so they understand what is truly being said but I notice yet again you ignore the crux of much of what I asked if you were able to provide, clearly you are either not capable or purposefully dodge what I have asked. I guess I will have to ask these questions as we go along, maybe for the sake of the readers you can address them so they have more clarity on your position and whether or not it is viable as laid out in the Word of God...
All has been Reconciled back to Him, absolutely everyone has the opportunity to go to the Father, all that is required is Repentance and Belief. The Reconciliation is complete, you dont really understand or believe this I suppose, but the Death and Resurrection of Jesus is the path and completeness of Reconciliation. However not everyone will Repent and Believe Todd, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without Faith. Faith only is going to exist now, the Angels dont have Faith, they see, as for you and I if we reject God now and have no Faith then the Blood of Reconciliation is not applied thus we dont spend Eternity in the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth...
Context is always critical in understanding the Word of God, we cant rip one or two verses out of context and make up a Doctrine that goes against other clearly stated verses, thats called horrible exegesis. One thing not spoken about here is Hell, does it say all things in Hell are Reconciled? Heaven and Earth are not Hell are they Todd, they are not the Lake of Fire...
The pathway the Reconciliation is completed in Christ everything that was at enmity in Heaven and Earth have been made to be at peace thru Christ, but only those that believe walk down the path to Heaven...
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
I suppose your are going to go through some mental gymnastics to show me how ALL doesnt really mean ALL.
First and foremost, why do you keep quoting Paul to make your points? You dont believe Paul, and I find it highly disingenuous to quote this chapter as tho its the Word of God to uphold your position but if we read a few verses back we see what?
1 Cor 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God
Pretty hypocritical to reject this but then try and use his writings from the same chapter to prove your doctrines, you would always do better to not use verses from Paul to back up your doctrine if you are going to keep rejecting Paul over and over on this thread/forum and make statements of well you take the words of Paul over Jesus hope it turns out well for you...
Regardless to the point, ALL are made alive in Jesus, would you like to see when Death is defeated and ALL are made alive?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There it is, ALL men are made alive in Jesus right there, the 2nd Resurrection and what happens after ALL men are made alive in the 2nd Resurrection? Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, thus the 2nd Resurrection completes EVERYTHING you will ever state about Reconciliation, and ALL MEN being made alive and the END of Death. Yet there is one more thing that happens after ALL men are made alive and DEATH is thrown into the Lake of Fire, all those who are not found in the Book of Life, well they are tossed into the Lake of Fire!! Guess what everyone in the 2nd Resurrection, they all go into the Lake of Fire, none of them believed in Christ, which is why they arent part of the 1st Resurrection.
So Todd maybe you will address this, now where exactly in Revelations do those tossed into the Lake of Fire get out? Where do we see the completion of your Doctrine? It OUGHT to be given a description here somewhere!!! Here is what the Bible actually states:
Rev 21:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
We have everyone thrown into the Lake of Fire, then is the New Creation and what does it tell us further in the chapter concerning the New Creation? Who is in the New Creation?
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Look at that only they which are written in the Lambs book of life are in the New Creation, the New City, the New Heaven and Earth ONLY they are allowed to enter in, so where do we see anyone get out of the Lake of Fire here Todd?
Who are outside the City and where are they outside the City?
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
There is NO ENTRANCE into the New City, Heaven or Hell, for those who are UNBELIEVING, they are where? Outside in the Lake of Fire, Jesus tells us all about it Todd:
Matt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus says clearly that unbelievers are CAST OUT into a furnace of fire, in outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, and this place is still around after the New Creation. So Todd where do we see them get out? When do they get out?
Revelations IS the end of time, the New Creation IS completely and utterly Eternal in the real meaning of the word, FOREVER, therefore those NOT in the Lambs Book of Life, the ones cast into the Lake of Fire STILL reside there FOREVER because NEVER are they found in the Book of the Lamb!!! Its rather simple and obvious but I ask please show me the exact verses that show people getting out of the Lake of Fire and eating from the Tree of Life...
what is Paul refering to that will testified in due time? That Jesus was the ransom for all, not just those who believe now!
He gave Himself a Ransom for all, which will be made for ALL TO UNDERSTAND clearly in that time, aka the Judgement. There will be no denying that Christ gave His life as a Ransom, but still the unbelieving, which still exist after the New Heaven and Earth are in the Lake of Fire. That is the absolute furthest reach of the verse, the other common interpretation is:
To be testified in due time - Margin, "a testimony." The Greek is, "the testimony in its own times," or in proper times - τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις to marturion kairois idiois. There have been very different explanations of this phrase. The common interpretation, and that which seems to me to be correct, is, that "the testimony of this will be furnished in the proper time; that is, in the proper time it shall be made known through all the world;" see Rosenmuller. Paul affirms it as a great and important truth that Christ gave himself a ransom for all mankind - for Jews and Gentiles; for all classes and conditions of people alike. This truth had not always been understood. The Jews had supposed that salvation was designed exclusively for their nation, and denied that it could be extended to others, unless they became Jews. According to them, salvation was not provided for, or offered to pagans as such, but only on condition that they became Jews. In opposition to this, Paul says that it was a doctrine of revelation that redemption was to be provided for all people, and that it was intended that the testimony to this should be afforded at the proper time. It was not fully made known under the ancient dispensation, but now the period had come when it should be communicated to all
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/2-6.htm
Either way you look at it, this has zero connection to anyone getting out of the Lake of Fire period...
1 Timothy 4:9-11 Again I suppose "all" doesn't really mean "all" here? notices it says "especially of those who believe" and not "only for those who believe"
Again Todd, He is the Savior of ALL Men, is there ever any man that can come to Salvation besides Him? No of course not, but as we can clearly see in the New Heaven and Earth, that ONLY those written in the Lambs Book of Life which are ONLY the believing are in the City whereas the UNBELIEVING are cast into outer darkness in the furnace where there is gnashing of teeth.
Who is the Saviour of all men - This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - "especially of those that believe." There is something pertaining to "them" in regard to salvation which does not pertain to "all men." It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, "especially" those who believe - for this would be nonsense. And if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be "especially" true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others "without" believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see
Mark 16:16. When, therefore, it is said that he "is the Saviour of 'all' people, 'especially' of those who believe," it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is "actually" true that those only are saved who believe. This may be true in two respects:
(1) As he is the "Preserver" of people
Job 7:20, for in this sense he may be said to "save" them from famine, and war, and peril - keeping them from day to day; compare
Psalm 107:28;
(2) as he has "provided" salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/4-10.htm
John seems to say the same thing. The atoning sacrifice does not seem to be limited to just Christians.
No Todd its the exact same concept as above which is what it is thru out all the verses that you have that are similar, yes Jesus Sacrifice is for ALL, as ALL have the ability to be saved by Him, but unless they BELIEVE in this Life NOW, then they will NOT be written into the Book of Life and they will be cast out into the Lake of Fire FOREVER.
Jesus asks God to forgive those who crucified him, without them repenting or believing?
Stop ripping things out of Context, why is only one thief told he will be in Paradise?
Did Jesus fail in what the Father sent him to do? Or is John mistaken and Jesus is the savior of only those that believe?
Same as the 2 other verses, Jesus brings Salvation to all, but clearly when reading the Word of God only the BELIEVING have the Blood applied and thus are written in the Book of Life:
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Again another all that must not mean all? Certainly you don't think all the descendants of Israel believed in this lifetime? If they didn't receive salvation in this lifetime then for this verse to be true God must be able to justify them in an age to come.
I dont think you understand this verse and its fulfillment in Christ either, lets look at the KJV of Is 45:25
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
And now lets understand its fulfillment in Christ:
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
How is the Seed of Israel justified according to the Word of God? By faith in Christ, period. Same as above, it is very interesting to me that all the verses you use to prop up your false doctrine in my view continually support everything I have been claiming as being the only way one is Saved, which is by Faith not Works in the finished Work of Christ in this lifetime, weird...
How does this scripture line up with Eternal Torment?
It is strange to me that you continually cherry pick verses so completely out of context that you must essentially quote mine to find verses that mention anything about repentance of anger and try unsucessfully to link this to Eternity, while in the same breath literally reinterpreting the Word Eternal to dissuade from the fact that there is Punishment that lasts Eternally in the NEXT life as opposed to the Earthly life we have now. Why do you insist on this Todd? Eternal doesnt mean Eternal when its speaking of Eternal Punishment in the clearly spoken next life but yet somehow verses declaring Gods wrath towards the Nation of Israel on Earth equates to the next lifetime. Mental gymnastics indeed my friend...
But let us say this is proclaiming something of the future state of Eternity, what does the very next verse say Todd?
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
At what point would Gods anger be turned away? When they acknowledge their Sin and TURN from it, aka when they Repent, until then what happens to them? Jeremiah isnt a very good book to quote if you are looking to prop up the false doctrine of UR:
Jer 6:11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the Lord; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days.
12 And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together: for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
21 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.
That is the end of the Prophecy that started in Chapter 3, not a very good Book to Cherry Pick from my friend, if you simply read the Book without preconceived ideologies its quite obvious over and over God says IF you follow me and believe I will turn back but since you REJECT me I will continually bring my furry upon you... Shall I quote more from Jeremiah? The next Prophecy says what?
Jer 7:14 Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
I am going to stop right there, interesting God says that because they rejected Him, He is going to pour out His fury upon them and it shall burn and what? Not be quenched. So I suppose it is up to you at this point, does this apply to the Afterlife, or the actual Nation of Israel at that time? Either way Jeremiah is not the Book to turn to in hopes of propping up UR, I would think one who studies the Bible ought to know that this entire Book is about the Judgement of God, its also why he wrote Lamentations...
And interestingly enough you choose that Book to quote next lol, so let us Contextualize your Cherry Picking again:
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the Lord.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
43 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.
46 All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.
47 Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
48 Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49 Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission.
In this Chapter what is Jeremiah actually saying? God will not cast off forever IF they REPENT and turn back to Him. Jeremiah actually says that this Judgement and Anger is RIGHTEOUS for God to pour out upon Israel and what does he close the Chapter saying Todd?
66 Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the Lord.
He actually calls on God to persecute and destroy those who are rejecting his plea of them to Repent, doesnt sound much like Jeremiah believes in UR...
More Cherry Picking and taking things out of Context:
Rom 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Paul lays out the method by which one is found justified, found in grace, found in righteousness and the very first thing in the Chapter he tells us how, by FAITH. Jesus laid the foundation and groundwork for ALL to be justified, but they must have FAITH to have it accounted to them, Paul literally goes to a great extent laying this out in the previous Chapter. Context Todd, Paul is laying out an Entire Thesis of Doctrine and you are doing a disservice to it, to just rip one or two verses out of it and try and prop up your false doctrine. The entire 4th Chapter is literally all about how it is by FAITH and FAITH Alone that ANYONE is Justified, goodness my man...
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I mean I could just copy the entire Chapter, but I think you know that you have taken that verse out of Context and now anyone who reads this will understand that what Paul writes in 5:18 has a contingency placed on it that he spent literally the entire Book up till then to lay out, which is that ALL of it is dependent upon Faith and Faith Alone...
Oh look, the pupose of judgment is for the world to learn righteousness!
Amen! I agree fully that the Judgement of God is in hopes that people will learn righteousness, however do they always? No sir in fact I would say 90% of people end up rejecting God and hardening their hearts when Judgement comes upon them and somehow you think that these men today who harden their hearts and take the Judgement upon God as an excuse to reject Him more and more, will somehow NOT do that when the Judgement of Eternity comes? Please, they will do exactly what they did on Earth, burn with more and more and more and more and more hatred and anger towards God for the Righteous Judgement they deserve. It is why there is absolutely no possible way for anyone to escape Hell. They hate God, Todd and they always will, if they had a desire to Repent and come to Him they WOULD NOW, and they would do it in Faith. It is by FAITH ALONE that the Blood is Applied, if that is the case which the Bible very very very clearly lays out then once they SEE Jesus then no longer is there any FAITH for them to have and thus receive the Blood. And I dont believe they even would want it, because as we see now, they have the Judgement of God upon them for their whole lives and they instead of Repenting and crying out in Faith for Salvation, they harden their hearts and hate Him even more....
Another scripture where the day of judgement is for purification. God doesn't chasten or punishment without an end result in mind.
And if we just read on in the next chapter we have the explicit difference between how Judgement brings those who Fear the Lord into submission and repentance and those that hate the Lord brings to them destruction.
Mal 4:4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
When the day comes that burns as an oven all those against the Lord are consumed, and those who fear Him arise with healing, because the Judgement of God upon the believing causes Righteousness and upon the Wicked a more hardened heart and eventually destruction. I mean Solomon wrote about this continually:
Pro 9:7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.
Pro 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.
The Pharisees did not believe. Even though Jesus is saying tax collectors and harlots will enter the kingdom of God before them, he is assuming that eventually even the Pharisees will enter the kingdom of God.
Lol what? You have got to be kidding me, that is how you see that verse? No sir that is not at all what Jesus is saying, He is literally saying the complete opposite. Why dont we read the next parable to put into Context what Jesus was telling the Pharisees, and exactly what fate the Pharisees pronounced upon themselves:
Matt 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Yeah buddy, the Pharisees pronounced their own Judgement upon themselves, to be destroyed for killing the Son of the Vineyard Householder, and Jesus agrees with them, telling them they will be ground to powder, aka destroyed. It is what He was saying in the other parable as well, Jesus was NOT in anyway saying eventually the Pharisees were going to go into the Kingdom, I mean Jesus literally says they wont over and over but lets ignore all those times and focus on this one verse where you put words in Jesus mouth...
Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
But yeah sure Todd Jesus was totally teaching the Pharisees would enter into the kingdom
Another where God says ALL but doesn't really mean ALL?
I have already addressed this, but you dont care to understand all of these verses in context, and will continue to preach and teach this false doctrine and sadly when Sinners hear it they WILL believe they can put off Salvation and then they will be found in Hell. I do hope you know that once we take our positions as teachers we become accountable for those who hear our preaching right?
You are preaching right now that Sinners do not need to Repent ever and still will go to Heaven, I tell you and you know if you are truly Born Again that you came to Christ because you wanted to Escape Hell, you wanted to Repent and run to Him for Salvation from the place that your Guilt and your Sin would land you in. Absolutely no one comes to Christ and are Truly Born Again unless they understand the Evilness of their Sins and the Judgement that awaits them and the NEED to have a Savior and FAITH TODAY Todd. Your preaching of UR is going to damn an untold number of men to Hell, because there is ZERO need to come to Christ in your false ideology. I do hope the Lord begins to convict you of what you are teaching others to believe...
Regardless of my continual plea for you to Repent, I would love if you could address what I have asked of you, which is for you to discet Revelations and show me exactly when people get out of the Lake of Fire and how anyone can enter into the New Creation that isnt written in the Book of Life, I would truly like to understand how you justify these verses and would love to see the verses you have to reject them.
Thanks, God Bless!!!
