Why Do Christians Do This?

[JoChris]

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html

 

[X-Maverick]

1 Peter 3

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Let me ask, If Jesus was 'dead like a man' how did he pull of this preaching to the spirits in prison?

And you assume this line "spirits in prison" is Hell because...?

It goes from talking about his death and resurrection, and then mentions that little line, and then goes into Noah and the flood. You act as if this is chronological. If it was, why mention Noah? Hell does not exist. There, I said it. There is no real proof for the false doctrine in all of scripture. And it flies in the face of God and His qualities. It flies in the face of what God and Jesus (among many others) said death is as well. Hell is Pagan/Catholic dogma, not truth.

 

[X-Maverick]

So you don't believe in the trinity?

The term "Trinity" is nowhere in scripture, so no. I believe in the Godhead. Consisting of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. The Trinity and Godhead may consist of the same beings; but the Trinity, ironically enough, is no real trinity; but is one being with three different functions.

The problem with Christians is that they pass on this nonsense dogma that's been passed down for generations. It has no real Biblical proof. Most Christians make everything complicated, even if the scriptures use very plain language.

 

[X-Maverick]

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html

That website does nothing but push the typical established ideas and doctrines of Christendom. If anyone ever seriously studied those scriptures, they'd have nothing to do with the proposed doctrine. They're twisted or misunderstood. It would take quite a long time to debunk that nonsense. But I may sometime.

 

[JoChris]

The term "Trinity" is nowhere in scripture, so no. I believe in the Godhead. Consisting of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. The Trinity and Godhead may consist of the same beings; but the Trinity, ironically enough, is no real trinity; but is one being with three different functions.

The problem with Christians is that they pass on this nonsense dogma that's been passed down for generations. It has no real Biblical proof. Most Christians make everything complicated, even if the scriptures use very plain language.

That is the modalism heresy. https://carm.org/modalism

The doctrine of the Trinity is a challenging one. There is no point in pretending that it isn't. It is one of the areas Christians have to decide whether they're willing to have a child-like faith (NOT childish) - or seek to explain away what the bible says using their own understanding.
John 10:30 [Jesus said] I and my Father are one.

https://carm.org/trinity

 

[X-Maverick]

That is the modalism heresy. https://carm.org/modalism

The doctrine of the Trinity is a challenging one. There is no point in pretending that it isn't. It is one of the areas Christians have to decide whether they're willing to have a child-like faith (NOT childish) - or seek to explain away what the bible says using their own understanding.
John 10:30 [Jesus said] I and my Father are one.

https://carm.org/trinity

Explain away using your own understanding? What do you think this erroneous Trinity doctrine is? But then, maybe I shouldn't call it that, as many Christians use the term, but believe in the Godhead as I explained it. The Bible has very plainly explained to you that God and Jesus are not one in body. Jesus Himself has even made the distinction. And just because you can call what I described an "ism" doesn't mean it isn't true.

And this childlike faith you mentioned is usually in context of the Gospel. Not the Godhead; so quit misusing it.

EDIT: Upon reading the link, you very much misunderstand what i've been saying here. I have been saying this entire time that the three exist at one time, since the beginning of time. They are just not the same person. I don't see how I could possibly explain it simpler than I already have.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Explain away using your own understanding? What do you think this erroneous Trinity doctrine is? But then, maybe I shouldn't call it that, as many Christians use the term, but believe in the Godhead as I explained it. The Bible has very plainly explained to you that God and Jesus are not one in body. Jesus Himself has even made the distinction. And just because you can call what I described an "ism" doesn't mean it isn't true.

And this childlike faith you mentioned is usually in context of the Gospel. Not the Godhead; so quit misusing it.

EDIT: Upon reading the link, you very much misunderstand what i've been saying here. I have been saying this entire time that the three exist at one time, since the beginning of time. They are just not the same person. I don't see how I could possibly explain it simpler than I already have.

Do you disagree with the concept of the Trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed?

 

[X-Maverick]

Do you disagree with the concept of the Trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed?

From what I read of it, I don't really disagree, no. Still, I am not Catholic, nor will I ever be, so I also don't agree with the creed.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

From what I read of it, I don't really disagree, no. Still, I am not Catholic, nor will I ever be, so I also don't agree with the creed.

I think the meaning of 'catholic' came to take on a denominational meaning entirely different from the meaning Athanasius had in mind at the time he wrote it...

 

[bbsion]

I've said this before, but believe in the Godhead, not the trinity. However, Jesus did taste of death. Since there is an afterlife, He was not without consciousness. His spirit left his body. He administered to spirits in the spirit prison. When it was time for him to resurrect himself, He did so. Then after speaking and administering with individuals here after His resurrection He ascended to Heaven. Sometime after His resurrection, either before or after His ascension to Heaven, He visited the Americas as well. He is a resurrected being which we will all become at one point (because of Him).

In a nutshell: There was a pre-existence life. There is this mortal life. There is an after life. The after life has many aspects and realms. There is a spirit prison where horrible people go to pay a huge price for their crimes in the mortal life. There is a spirit paradise where people dwell doing work awaiting the 2nd coming and judgment day. After judgment day people will attain the kingdom that best fits. There is a Telestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Celestial Kingdom. Within these Kingdoms there are different degrees dependent on the individual. There is also outer darkness (Hell) which only exists for those especially evil individuals.

 

[X-Maverick]

I've said this before, but believe in the Godhead, not the trinity. However, Jesus did taste of death. Since there is an afterlife, He was not without consciousness. His spirit left his body. He administered to spirits in the spirit prison. When it was time for him to resurrect himself, He did so. Then after speaking and administering with individuals here after His resurrection He ascended to Heaven. Sometime after His resurrection, either before or after His ascension to Heaven, He visited the Americas as well. He is a resurrected being which we will all become at one point (because of Him).

In a nutshell: There was a pre-existence life. There is this mortal life. There is an after life. The after life has many aspects and realms. There is a spirit prison where horrible people go to pay a huge price for their crimes in the mortal life. There is a spirit paradise where people dwell doing work awaiting the 2nd coming and judgment day. After judgment day people will attain the kingdom that best fits. There is a Telestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Celestial Kingdom. Within these Kingdoms there are different degrees dependent on the individual. There is also outer darkness (Hell) which only exists for those especially evil individuals.

This is where we disagree. The things you list in your second paragraph were never explicitly stated. Yeah, it said He preached to the spirits in prison; but does that mean spirits in Hell? No. It never said that. That is always imposed on the scripture with little proof. Did Jesus have a consciousness when He died? No, He did not. He experienced the same death as Lazarus, who also had no consciousness in death. The Bible has also explained death many times, and never has it even implied you are conscious.

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

John 11:11-14
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his thoughts perish.

There are other scriptures I could get too; but this should be enough. What are the commonalities between all these scriptures about death? Well, one is that all of them directly state that there is no consciousness in death. Either it says you are silent, have fallen asleep (lack of consciousness), you know nothing at the time of death, or it says your thoughts perish (have to have consciousness in order to think). The other is the utter lack of any mention or implication of an afterlife; including Hell.

We are to look forward to the resurrection, not a supposed "afterlife." The afterlife as many people believe it to be has come from pagan sources and beliefs, made popular in Christendom through Catholicism.

And pay attention to the second scripture I posted. Jesus was the firstfruits of them that SLEPT. Which means He did experience the same kind of death. Which is described as falling asleep. Jesus was not conscious throughout those three days.

I should also mention that it says that Jesus has been raised from the dead. Indicating that someone else did that, being God the Father.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This is where we disagree. The things you list in your second paragraph were never explicitly stated. Yeah, it said He preached to the spirits in prison; but does that mean spirits in Hell? No. It never said that. That is always imposed on the scripture with little proof. Did Jesus have a consciousness when He died? No, He did not. He experienced the same death as Lazarus, who also had no consciousness in death. The Bible has also explained death many times, and never has it even implied you are conscious.

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

John 11:11-14
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his thoughts perish.

There are other scriptures I could get too; but this should be enough. What are the commonalities between all these scriptures about death? Well, one is that all of them directly state that there is no consciousness in death. Either it says you are silent, have fallen asleep (lack of consciousness), you know nothing at the time of death, or it says your thoughts perish (have to have consciousness in order to think). The other is the utter lack of any mention or implication of an afterlife; including Hell.

We are to look forward to the resurrection, not a supposed "afterlife." The afterlife as many people believe it to be has come from pagan sources and beliefs, made popular in Christendom through Catholicism.

And pay attention to the second scripture I posted. Jesus was the firstfruits of them that SLEPT. Which means He did experience the same kind of death. Which is described as falling asleep. Jesus was not conscious throughout those three days.

The spirits in prison? I had wondered about these till i noticed that book of Jude mentions the same group, alluding back to Genesis 6...

So are these really just the spirits of ordinary people who have died?

The thing that makes these various verses so interesting is that three New Testament passages seem to refer to them and make connections: 1 Peter 3:18-22; 2 Peter 2:4, 5; and Jude 6, 7. These passages say in part: "Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built" (1 Peter 3:18-20); "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others" (2 Peter 2:4, 5); and "the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day" (Jude 6).

If these passages are related, as they seem to be, the incident of Genesis 6 has bearing on the doctrines of judgment, the afterlife, and even the work of Christfollowing His crucifixion but before His resurrection or ascension. The New Testament verses explain what Christ was doing when, as we say in the Apostles' Creed, "he descended into hell."

 

[bbsion]

This is where we disagree. The things you list in your second paragraph were never explicitly stated. Yeah, it said He preached to the spirits in prison; but does that mean spirits in Hell? No. It never said that. That is always imposed on the scripture with little proof. Did Jesus have a consciousness when He died? No, He did not. He experienced the same death as Lazarus, who also had no consciousness in death. The Bible has also explained death many times, and never has it even implied you are conscious.

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

John 11:11-14
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his thoughts perish.

There are other scriptures I could get too; but this should be enough. What are the commonalities between all these scriptures about death? Well, one is that all of them directly state that there is no consciousness in death. Either it says you are silent, have fallen asleep (lack of consciousness), you know nothing at the time of death, or it says your thoughts perish (have to have consciousness in order to think). The other is the utter lack of any mention or implication of an afterlife; including Hell.

We are to look forward to the resurrection, not a supposed "afterlife." The afterlife as many people believe it to be has come from pagan sources and beliefs, made popular in Christendom through Catholicism.

And pay attention to the second scripture I posted. Jesus was the firstfruits of them that SLEPT. Which means He did experience the same kind of death. Which is described as falling asleep. Jesus was not conscious throughout those three days.

I should also mention that it says that Jesus has been raised from the dead. Indicating that someone else did that, being God the Father.

Obviously I have to disagree here. It is true, a dead body has no consciousness and knows nothing. You are dead when you spirit leaves your body. Where does your spirit go? There are way too many scriptures that allude to an after life. There would be no point to this life if there were no after life. People don't just disappear when they die, including, and most importantly Jesus.

I do not like to do a battle of verses because people interpret verses completely differently (as we just did on the ones you provided). It seems to be a never ending circle where no one convinces anyone of their point of view.

 

[X-Maverick]

Obviously I have to disagree here. It is true, a dead body has no consciousness and knows nothing. You are dead when you spirit leaves your body. Where does your spirit go? There are way too many scriptures that allude to an after life. There would be no point to this life if there were no after life. People don't just disappear when they die, including, and most importantly Jesus.

I do not like to do a battle of verses because people interpret verses completely differently (as we just did on the ones you provided). It seems to be a never ending circle where no one convinces anyone of their point of view.

I never implied Jesus disappeared. He's alive, right? We believe that? How would this life have no meaning with no afterlife? I've heard that kind of thinking a lot more than I care to recall. It's stupid logic. Why? Because it makes no sense.

The meaning of this life is not contingent upon you existing in ghost form. The resurrection is called that for a very obvious reason. And that is, death means death. We are dead forever unless God keeps His promise and raises us as He did Jesus, the first fruits. And like many other Christians, you attempt to play games with semantics by implying the Bible was merely speaking of the body with those scriptures I posted. Only the body is silent. If that was so, it would have stated such. The Bible is plain in language a lot more than people will admit. It describes death, and the process of it, in so many scriptures. And yet, many Christians still try to explain them with their own reasoning rather than letting the scriptures speak on their own.

Tell me, when the scriptures say your thoughts perish at death, is that just talking about the body? If you think that, then that is just ridiculous. Your thoughts perish. If you could exist as a bodyless spirit, then your thoughts would obviously continue to exist at death, which would make that scripture confusing and useless.

Post these scriptures that speak of an afterlife. This has nothing to do with "interpretations." You can possibly play that off when it comes to symbolism, but there is no interpretation when it comes to something that is so simple to understand. What you call an interpretation is really just a pet dogma you would attempt to fashion the selected scriptures into supporting.

 

[X-Maverick]

I should also state that I understand. I was raised to believe in what you're saying as well. Throughout most of my life that is what I believed. I also realize that, yeah, the thought of us being in a state of real death is scary. To believe that we go on existing as a spirit gives many people hope, including many Christians. Maybe when I first found out about this I had a lot of bravado and had some kind of pleasure in being irritating while also going against popular belief. But now, I take no real pleasure in it. I just seek to attempt to correct others, to let other Christians know what's really in scripture. Regardless of how we may feel about it.

The thought of you not existing is terrifying. I feel the same way. It's like the thought of being in a really cramp space. You can move, you have full range of motion. So anything obstructing said motion, is a fear for many people. We live, we breathe, we think and feel. The thought of not being able to experience any of that anymore is unnerving, to say the very least.

But that is what the hope of the resurrection is for. It's to counter that fear. To counter the fear of death. Many Christians say that there is no meaning to this life if there is no afterlife. Or, there is no point to the Gospel if there is no Hell. But the Gospel is made even more beautiful because of this truth. We live, we die, and that's it.

Unless, God the Father decides to save us by way of the sacrifice of His Son. To wake up from death as one wakes from sleep; that's how scripture describes it. That is the hope of the Gospel.

And the meaning of this life? It isn't tied to an afterlife. To me, the meaning of this life is people. People to spend your life with. To better the lives of, if possible. To love and to cherish. There are a lot of evil things in this life, for sure; as this forum, and many others, spot continually. But, there are also many wonderful things. The greatest thing in this life though, are others apart from yourself.

 

[bbsion]

@X-Maverick

Then where did Jesus go when He died and before He was resurrected? Do you believe our bodies have spirits? Where do we go when we die and before we are resurrected by God? In your belief, if we are not chosen to be resurrected then what/where are we? When I say "this is my body" who or what is "my"? Is "my" something separate from this body that "I" am taking care of? What is our identity without our body? If there is no spirit, did we come into consciousness out of thin air when we were conceived? Do we disappear when we die and then reappear when (hopefully) we are chosen by God to be resurrected? If we do have a spirit, does it straight up cease to exist when we die?

The resurrection is called that because our bodies reunite with our spirit. If "we" are dead unless God keeps his promises and raises us, then what happens to "you" while you are waiting to be resurrected? I guess if "you" cease to exist until God recreates "you" by raising "you" from the dead then "you" cannot be waiting for anything. If there is no after life and "we" spirit/body both die then what is it about "us" and our identity that God restores when we are resurrected? Is what we do on this earth recorded so that if, by chance, we do get resurrected, then God will know how to punish/reward us for our deeds? If there is no after life like you say, then what happens to evil people who r*pe, kill, torture, molest children, and then go and commit suicide? Do they cease existence with no punishment? Does God chose them to be resurrected and then punish them? How does God and who does God decide to resurrect? I'm sure you've met a wide spectrum of people both really good and really horrible and then a ton of people in between. What happens to everyone?

"The Bible is plain in language a lot more than people will admit." Some of it is, yes. A LOT of it is not all that plain. But I guess this depends on your definition of plain. Have you read Isaiah or Revelations? How much of that is "plain" to you? All of it? Well, I am afraid you are in the minority of people who completely understand the undeniably plain language that the Bible always uses their first time they read through it. Have you ever read a scripture passage at one point in your life and then re-read it years later only to find out that it meant something completely different to you? Well... perhaps then our understanding of scripture passages comes with experience, time, how in tune we are with the Holy Ghost, our intelligence, and a myriad of other circumstances that eventually make it "plain" to us. So "plain" is directly relevant to the individual's capability of understanding. The Bible is not plain to a child who does not know how to read. It is also not plain to an adult who has limited understanding. If you "seek to correct" then perhaps you should seek to listen more. What you call plain in language is maybe just "a pet dogma you would attempt to fashion the selected scriptures into supporting."

I disagree with you for good reason. I try not to wrest the scriptures until I am satisfied and feel justified in my beliefs. I believe the way I do because out of everything I've heard thus far.... it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I do not call that stupid logic. I call that different logic than yours.

To me, the meaning of this life is people. People to spend your life with. To better the lives of, if possible. To love and to cherish. There are a lot of evil things in this life, for sure; as this forum, and many others, spot continually. But, there are also many wonderful things. The greatest thing in this life though, are others apart from yourself.

Hey there we go! Something we can agree on!

 

[X-Maverick]

@X-Maverick

Then where did Jesus go when He died and before He was resurrected? Do you believe our bodies have spirits? Where do we go when we die and before we are resurrected by God? In your belief, if we are not chosen to be resurrected then what/where are we? When I say "this is my body" who or what is "my"? Is "my" something separate from this body that "I" am taking care of? What is our identity without our body? If there is no spirit, did we come into consciousness out of thin air when we were conceived? Do we disappear when we die and then reappear when (hopefully) we are chosen by God to be resurrected? If we do have a spirit, does it straight up cease to exist when we die?

The resurrection is called that because our bodies reunite with our spirit. If "we" are dead unless God keeps his promises and raises us, then what happens to "you" while you are waiting to be resurrected? I guess if "you" cease to exist until God recreates "you" by raising "you" from the dead then "you" cannot be waiting for anything. If there is no after life and "we" spirit/body both die then what is it about "us" and our identity that God restores when we are resurrected? Is what we do on this earth recorded so that if, by chance, we do get resurrected, then God will know how to punish/reward us for our deeds? If there is no after life like you say, then what happens to evil people who r*pe, kill, torture, molest children, and then go and commit suicide? Do they cease existence with no punishment? Does God chose them to be resurrected and then punish them? How does God and who does God decide to resurrect? I'm sure you've met a wide spectrum of people both really good and really horrible and then a ton of people in between. What happens to everyone?

"The Bible is plain in language a lot more than people will admit." Some of it is, yes. A LOT of it is not all that plain. But I guess this depends on your definition of plain. Have you read Isaiah or Revelations? How much of that is "plain" to you? All of it? Well, I am afraid you are in the minority of people who completely understand the undeniably plain language that the Bible always uses their first time they read through it. Have you ever read a scripture passage at one point in your life and then re-read it years later only to find out that it meant something completely different to you? Well... perhaps then our understanding of scripture passages comes with experience, time, how in tune we are with the Holy Ghost, our intelligence, and a myriad of other circumstances that eventually make it "plain" to us. So "plain" is directly relevant to the individual's capability of understanding. The Bible is not plain to a child who does not know how to read. It is also not plain to an adult who has limited understanding. If you "seek to correct" then perhaps you should seek to listen more. What you call plain in language is maybe just "a pet dogma you would attempt to fashion the selected scriptures into supporting."

I disagree with you for good reason. I try not to wrest the scriptures until I am satisfied and feel justified in my beliefs. I believe the way I do because out of everything I've heard thus far.... it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I do not call that stupid logic. I call that different logic than yours.



Hey there we go! Something we can agree on!

That's a lot of questions. How do you expect me to tackle all of them?

When Jesus died, He said to God "I commend my spirit", or something to that effect. Where do people get this false doctrine of Him going to Hell? God took His spirit as He takes the spirit of EVERYONE when they die. This part of death is not unique to Christians. He gave us life, and He takes it back upon death. The spirit exists, but it cannot live apart from the body. And no part of scripture has ever said it could. And again, you're playing semantics when you ask a silly question like "What does it mean when I say "my" body?"

It doesn't really mean anything. Just because you choose to word it that way doesn't automatically mean you have a consciousness within your body.

"The resurrection is called that because our bodies reunite with our spirit."

Eh, that's both right and wrong. The spirit, the essence that is unique to each of us, but has the same function, is returned to our bodies. However, that essence is not alive in and of itself. It's like the batteries that give a toy power and motion. Does the toy have power and move without the battery? No. Can the battery do things apart from the toy? No. Both need each other in order to do anything.

The resurrection is called the resurrection because it raises us from death. Could I put that in more plain language than that? Is this really that hard to understand? I have always said that many people have good reading comprehension; but when it comes to the Bible, that reading comprehension tends to plummet. If this was any other text, you'd understand easily. But for some weird reason, no matter how much it's stated in different ways, you cannot understand something as simple as the meaning of the word 'resurrection'.

"The Bible is plain in language a lot more than people will admit." Some of it is, yes. A LOT of it is not all that plain."

No, A lot of it is.

"Have you read Isaiah or Revelations? How much of that is "plain" to you? All of it?"

Yeah, i've read all of the Bible. Did you think that maybe Revelation falls outside the realm of 'a lot of the Bible uses plain language'? Revelation is a book full of symbols, and it needs careful study (along with the book of Daniel) in order to understand properly. So not very much in Revelation is plain. But seeing as how this subject has nothing to do with the book, that is a moot point.

"If you "seek to correct" then perhaps you should seek to listen more."

As I said in my prior post, I used to believe as you do. The fact that I prayed and listened for truth is the very reason my beliefs changed. Or did you expect me to listen to your points (as if I haven't been in order to address them), and then to become converted to a doctrine that I left behind awhile back? Would you say something I haven't heard before that would be the catalyst to me going back to that flawed belief? You wouldn't, because i've heard every excuse, flawed logic, and defense pertaining to this subject.

 

[bbsion]

That's a lot of questions. How do you expect me to tackle all of them?

When Jesus died, He said to God "I commend my spirit", or something to that effect. Where do people get this false doctrine of Him going to Hell? God took His spirit as He takes the spirit of EVERYONE when they die. This part of death is not unique to Christians. He gave us life, and He takes it back upon death. The spirit exists, but it cannot live apart from the body. And no part of scripture has ever said it could. And again, you're playing semantics when you ask a silly question like "What does it mean when I say "my" body?"

It doesn't really mean anything. Just because you choose to word it that way doesn't automatically mean you have a consciousness within your body.

"The resurrection is called that because our bodies reunite with our spirit."

Eh, that's both right and wrong. The spirit, the essence that is unique to each of us, but has the same function, is returned to our bodies. However, that essence is not alive in and of itself. It's like the batteries that give a toy power and motion. Does the toy have power and move without the battery? No. Can the battery do things apart from the toy? No. Both need each other in order to do anything.

The resurrection is called the resurrection because it raises us from death. Could I put that in more plain language than that? Is this really that hard to understand? I have always said that many people have good reading comprehension; but when it comes to the Bible, that reading comprehension tends to plummet. If this was any other text, you'd understand easily. But for some weird reason, no matter how much it's stated in different ways, you cannot understand something as simple as the meaning of the word 'resurrection'.

"The Bible is plain in language a lot more than people will admit." Some of it is, yes. A LOT of it is not all that plain."

No, A lot of it is.

"Have you read Isaiah or Revelations? How much of that is "plain" to you? All of it?"

Yeah, i've read all of the Bible. Did you think that maybe Revelation falls outside the realm of 'a lot of the Bible uses plain language'? Revelation is a book full of symbols, and it needs careful study (along with the book of Daniel) in order to understand properly. So not very much in Revelation is plain. But seeing as how this subject has nothing to do with the book, that is a moot point.

"If you "seek to correct" then perhaps you should seek to listen more."

As I said in my prior post, I used to believe as you do. The fact that I prayed and listened for truth is the very reason my beliefs changed. Or did you expect me to listen to your points (as if I haven't been in order to address them), and then to become converted to a doctrine that I left behind awhile back? Would you say something I haven't heard before that would be the catalyst to me going back to that flawed belief? You wouldn't, because i've heard every excuse, flawed logic, and defense pertaining to this subject.

I think your arrogance and condescending tone blinds you. But I have a feeling I am not the first person to tell you that.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this because I cannot get on board with your interpretation. And that's precisely what it is, your interpretation.

 

[X-Maverick]

I think your arrogance and condescending tone blinds you. But I have a feeling I am not the first person to tell you that.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this because I cannot get on board with your interpretation. And that's precisely what it is, your interpretation.

I'll agree that maybe my tone sounds a little condescending and could use a little tweaking. But if I'm being arrogant, than so are you, as we're both arguing our own points. The difference is, I don't believe in "interpretation" when it comes to things plainly explained in scripture. It is my opinion that it's a lazy copout in an effort to still feel one is right while not having much backing to prove it. Interpretation is a word that goes with something ambiguous, and there is nothing ambiguous about this topic.

If you want to go on believing as you do, that's your choice. But I do believe you are wrong. You still haven't posted any scriptures supposedly proving an immediate afterlife either.

Lastly, unlike many other people, I stand by my beliefs and will argue them. Agreeing to disagree is not something I normally do. If you want to think of me as a jerk because of that, that's also your choice.

 

[bbsion]

I'll agree that maybe my tone sounds a little condescending and could use a little tweaking. But if I'm being arrogant, than so are you, as we're both arguing our own points. The difference is, I don't believe in "interpretation" when it comes to things plainly explained in scripture. It is my opinion that it's a lazy copout in an effort to still feel one is right while not having much backing to prove it. Interpretation is a word that goes with something ambiguous, and there is nothing ambiguous about this topic.

If you want to go on believing as you do, that's your choice. But I do believe you are wrong. You still haven't posted any scriptures supposedly proving an immediate afterlife either.

Lastly, unlike many other people, I stand by my beliefs and will argue them. Agreeing to disagree is not something I normally do. If you want to think of me as a jerk because of that, that's also your choice.

The term "agree to disagree" or "agreeing to disagree" is a phrase in English referring to the resolution of a conflict (usually a debate or quarrel) whereby all parties tolerate but do not accept the opposing position(s).

Is that not what we should do? I am not changing my mind based on what you've presented so far. You are not going to change your mind based on what I've said so far. I have been in multiple debates where I used scriptures to prove my point only to be taken completely differently by the individual I was debating. If I throw out a scripture, you will tell me what you think it means. I will tell you that I think it means something different. You will tell me that I am using stupid logic and that I am twisting the scripture because to your mind, it plainly says what you think it says. To my mind it plainly says something else. But you are always right because only you are using logic and plainly reading the scripture the way you think it should be read... Do you see why I do not care to keep this going?