This is what Islam is...

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#21
Serious question here, if you have given it any thought and care to respond. What, exactly, from a Christian -more specifically, your- standpoint, and as it relates in this case more to Christianity than Islam, is wrong with, or bad about, Lucifer, apart from his hubris?
What is wrong with Lucifer ? Well he is an adversary and a deceiver for those who seek God or Truth.


I did read the above Isaiah quotation, which you go on to interpret as being applicable to Islam, but, as I read, or further read, maybe even misread and that not deliberately, in the New Testament, according to St. Peter, 2nd epistle 1:19, Christians are waiting for Lucifer, translated in the KJV as the "day star," to arise in their hearts. Back to Prophet Isaiah, has Lucifer "fallen from Heaven" only to arise, at some point, in the hearts of Christians? To make the point clear, bold emphases in the following quotations are mine.


φωσφόρος, φωσφορον (φῶς and φέρω), light-bringing, giving light(Aristophanes, Euripides, Plato, Plutarch, others); as a substantive, ὁφωσφόρος (Latin Lucifer), the planet Venus, the morning-star, day-star"

Here is the verse, in full, as it appears first in the KJV, English obviously, and then in the Vulgate, in Latin:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

"et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris"
It's not good that the Vulgata in Latin and the KJV in English give the same name to two different things. Not good at all and i don't like it as Trump would have said. I don't like it at all. Thank you very much.
 





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#22
Serious question here, if you have given it any thought and care to respond. What, exactly, from a Christian -more specifically, your- standpoint, and as it relates in this case more to Christianity than Islam, is wrong with, or bad about, Lucifer, apart from his hubris? I did read the above Isaiah quotation, which you go on to interpret as being applicable to Islam, but, as I read, or further read, maybe even misread and that not deliberately, in the New Testament, according to St. Peter, 2nd epistle 1:19, Christians are waiting for Lucifer, translated in the KJV as the "day star," to arise in their hearts. Back to Prophet Isaiah, has Lucifer "fallen from Heaven" only to arise, at some point, in the hearts of Christians? To make the point clear, bold emphases in the following quotations are mine.



φωσφόρος, φωσφορον (φῶς and φέρω), light-bringing, giving light(Aristophanes, Euripides, Plato, Plutarch, others); as a substantive, ὁφωσφόρος (Latin Lucifer), the planet Venus, the morning-star, day-star"

Here is the verse, in full, as it appears first in the KJV, English obviously, and then in the Vulgate, in Latin:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

"et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris"
Perhaps @Serveto you are playing "Devils Advocate" but your question takes the lid of a can of worms people should be aware of.

When Lucifer says I will be "like the Most High", he provides the clearest insight into his character, motivations and modus operandi.

Emulation, appropriation of symbolism, creation of parallel narratives etc etc seem to be his style.

There is a tremendous amount that could be said on this topic. PM me if you're interested, Serv.
 





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#24
Islam is the worship of AMUN RA

With Osiris, Amun-Ra is the most widely recorded of the Egyptian gods. As the chief deity of the Egyptian Empire, Amun-Ra also came to be worshipped outside Egypt, according to the testimony of ancient Greek historiographers in Libya and Nubia. As Zeus Ammon, he came to be identified with Zeus in Greece.
 





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#26
Islam is the worship of the ANNUNAKI

Islam is the worship of the one EYE

Islam is the worship of HORUS

Islam is the worship of the pineal gland

Islam is the worship of AS ABOVE SO DOWN BELOW
Could not agree with you more! :D
 





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#27
Serious question here, if you have given it any thought and care to respond. What, exactly, from a Christian -more specifically, your- standpoint, and as it relates in this case more to Christianity than Islam, is wrong with, or bad about, Lucifer, apart from his hubris? I did read the above Isaiah quotation, which you go on to interpret as being applicable to Islam, but, as I read, or further read, maybe even misread and that not deliberately, in the New Testament, according to St. Peter, 2nd epistle 1:19, Christians are waiting for Lucifer, translated in the KJV as the "day star," to arise in their hearts. Back to Prophet Isaiah, has Lucifer "fallen from Heaven" only to arise, at some point, in the hearts of Christians? To make the point clear, bold emphases in the following quotations are mine.



φωσφόρος, φωσφορον (φῶς and φέρω), light-bringing, giving light(Aristophanes, Euripides, Plato, Plutarch, others); as a substantive, ὁφωσφόρος (Latin Lucifer), the planet Venus, the morning-star, day-star"

Here is the verse, in full, as it appears first in the KJV, English obviously, and then in the Vulgate, in Latin:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

"et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris"
Is it a question of doctrine or question of translation ? About what are this verse talking ?

We have also a more sure word of prophecy;

Not that hard to identify, what sort of prophecies are bible full of ? about Christ or about satan ?
Regarding lucifer and the tune "lucifer did nothing wrong" , we first then have to agree that stars are literally angels. Or how you fallen from heaven like a lightning (...) which weakened the nations...(cataclysm) verse in that case is literal, if he was that star it is obviously thing of the past...
Now in rev 22:16 Jesus straight out claims he is the bright morning star...So what ? What does morning stars do anyways?

By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

Whatever original morning star was it is obviously thing of the past .. Also why does it says your trade.

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.

Again he lost his office...Obviously im speculating, but still there are difference and it obvious, even if not everything is clear..
 





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#28
Just to add, "Morning Stars" are not a unique definition in Scripture, as Job 38 illustrates...

"4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 





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#29
With the ^ above statement in mind, and even with inter-Christian denominational and doctrinal controversies, I sometimes have to wonder if Jehovah is the same god, or God, as Jehovah.
Artful is that you ? :)
To come to that conclusion one has to rely on extra biblical sources...There is that. If to follow linear story telling of OT, it becomes very difficult to switch between God's... Neither those who claim OT God is different has any answer to that.
People say that their houses of worship are pagan and contain pagan symbols which were revered by their ancestors. Even if they still bow to them, their hearts are directed toward God.
Same can be said about catholics/christians. Everything said in that quote is simply opinion, i see nothing which would force me to draw any conclusions...
 





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#30
Perhaps @Serveto you are playing "Devils Advocate" ...
Sometimes I am giving Christians a spoon of their own medicine, to see how they react before I swallow any. Judaism has repudiated Christianity for about 650 years longer than Christianity has done the same to Islam, so if participants choose to "play polemics," sort of like a video game, I sometimes play along, though I prefer legitimate dialog to polemics. What is more, and though I know it can be read as Serveto, once again, "defending Islam," I actually am not. First because Islam doesn't need me to defend it; secondly because what I am really doing is subjecting Christianity to the same type of analysis as that often raised against Islam.
Red Sky at Morning said:
... but your question takes the lid of a can of worms people should be aware of.
As I see it, I am responding to the can of worms that @TokiEl opened. Whereas, if I have correctly understood, he reads Prophet Isaiah and sees Lucifer on the Temple Mount, in the form of either or both the Dome of the Rock and the Mosque of Omar, I find Lucifer mentioned, by name, in St. Peter's epistle, and that as someone, or some entity, which is expected to ultimately arise in Christian hearts.


On and off the board, that happens to me a lot, though I don't go in search of it and am not complaining. Christians will say: "Oh look, Muslims are circumambulating around a cube, and cubes are thought to be related to Saturn, and therefore Muslims are Satanic Saturn worshipers." To which I respond: "Oh really? As I read it, Muslims are only circumambulating around a cube, but, by the sounds of things, Christians are expecting to actually live in one, or something which sounds suspiciously like one, a celestial city built foursquare. Furthermore, when the Temple was still standing, Jews had a cube in their Holy of Holies, and, at the rate they are going, probably again soon will." To me, a "cubist" by any other name is still a cubist.

Finally, I will point out that, in my above, no doubt controversial, post, I used only three sources: Strong's Biblical Concordance, the KJV, and the Latin Vulgate, upon which, as I understand, the KJV is largely based. Not one of those sources is usually considered occult or anti-Christian.

Note to both @TokiEl and @Vytas. Thank you for individually responding. Consider this, my post to Red, as being to you as well.
 





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#31
Sometimes I am giving Christians a spoon of their own medicine, to see how they react before I swallow any. Judaism has repudiated Christianity about 600 years longer than Christianity has repudiated Islam, so if participants choose to "play polemics," kind of like a video game, I sometimes play along, though I prefer legitimate dialog to polemics. What is more, and though I know it can be read as Serveto, once again, "defending Islam," I really am not. First because Islam doesn't need me to defend it; secondly because what I am really doing is subjecting Christianity to the same type of analysis as that often raised against Islam.

As far as I am concerned, I am responding to the can of worms that @TokiEl opened. Whereas he reads Prophet Isaiah and sees Lucifer on the Temple Mount, in the form of either or both the Dome of the Rock and the Mosque of Omar, I find Lucifer mentioned, by name, in St. Peter's epistle, and that as someone, or some entity, which is expected to ultimately arise in Christian hearts.

On and off the board, that happens to me a lot, though I don't go in search of it and am not complaining. Christians will say: "Oh look, Muslims are circumambulating around a cube, and cubes are thought to be related to Saturn, and therefore Muslims are Satanic Saturn worshippers." To which I respond: "Oh really? As I read it, Muslims are only circumambulating around a cube, but, by the sounds of things, Christians are expecting to actually live in one, or something which sounds suspiciously like one, a celestial city built foursquare. Furthermore, when the Temple was still standing, Jews had a cube in their Holy of Holies, and, at the rate they are going, probably again soon will." To me, a "cubist" by any other name is still a cubist.

Finally, I will point out that, in my above, no doubt controversial, post, I used only three sources: Strong's Biblical Concordance, the KJV, and the Latin Vulgate, upon which, as I understand, the KJV is largely based. Not one of those sources is usually considered occult or anti-Christian.

Note to both @TokiEl and @Vytas. Thank you for individually responding. Consider this, my post to Red, as being to you as well.
In general, I don't think the validity of one idea is propped up by pulling down another. For a significant time I would simply defend the Bible against Islamic claims of corruption etc. Eventually the simultanious claims by some that the Qur'an was the most perfectly preserved book ever written started to grate against the facts a little too much to stand without comment ;-)

As an interesting adjunct to the nature of the New Jerusalem, an alternative shape may be another possibility :-

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-cornerstone-the-capstone-and-the-pyramid.4727/
 





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#32
Sometimes I am giving Christians a spoon of their own medicine, to see how they react before I swallow any.
In other words kicks our asses and tips the hat :) It's good to point out that our yard is not without rubbish (controversy) and that two can play that game. I do not see it as you defending islam, more like a peacemaker. In you own way.
 





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#34
As I see it, I am responding to the can of worms that @TokiEl opened. Whereas, if I have correctly understood, he reads Prophet Isaiah and sees Lucifer on the Temple Mount, in the form of either or both the Dome of the Rock and the Mosque of Omar,.
That's right. In Isaiah 14 God is calling out the deity who would exalt and establish himself on the mount of the congregation where God used to have a Temple. He is in Hebrew called Heylel and for some reason that was translated into English as Lucifer. Heylel is in Arabic Hilal which means Crescent. I don't know if anybody has seen this connection before but it is blatantly obvious that God in Isaiah 14 is calling out the god or idol of Islam.
 





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#37
The god or idol of Islam is in the Bible.

An important deity with over one billion devotees is of course found in the Book.


Isaiah 14 12“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13
For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north
;
14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit."



Lucifer in the original Hebrew is Heylel which in Arabic is Hilal which means Crescent.

And he will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north. And that is the Temple Mount.


So God is talking to the deity who has a temple on the Temple Mount. A deity represented by the crescent and five i will or pillar statements.

And the destiny of this deity is fixed.

Now i don't know if all his followers will follow him to the pit... that is up to Jesus Christ.
Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. 2:6 Surah Al- Baqarah
 





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#38
Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. 2:6 Surah Al- Baqarah
Anybody can write a book and pretend to be god and demand worship.

And many have done so.

The Quran is just one of many. And quite frankly a bad one.

A series of disconnected verses which only purpose is to glorify the author in ramblings of embarrassing self aggrandizements.
 





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#39
That's right. In Isaiah 14 God is calling out the deity who would exalt and establish himself on the mount of the congregation where God used to have a Temple. He is in Hebrew called Heylel and for some reason that was translated into English as Lucifer ...
So a related question, to my mind, is why it is that St. Peter, at least when he's read in the Vulgate (by speakers of Latin), apparently tells Christians that Lucifer, by name, will arise in their hearts? A secondary question is why it is that the KJV translators, when they translated the Vulgate into English, replaced the root "Lucifer" with either or both "day star" and "morningstar," but that question can wait, because it is quite possibly unanswerable and leads to nothing more than speculation.
Heylel is in Arabic Hilal which means Crescent. I don't know if anybody has seen this connection before but it is blatantly obvious that God in Isaiah 14 is calling out the god or idol of Islam.
I am not fluent in either Hebrew or Arabic, but can you please show me how you get from the Arabic, هليل, to its meaning "crescent" in English? Do you have a link? If so, we'll go from there. Thank you.
 





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#40
So a related question, to my mind, is why it is that St. Peter, at least when he's read in the Vulgate (by speakers of Latin), apparently tells Christians that Lucifer, by name, will arise in their hearts?
Lucifer is a Latin word that is not found in the original text which was written mostly in Hebraic and some Aramaic in the OT and Greek in the NT.

In 2 Peter 1:19 the Greek word is φωσφόρος (Strong's G5459 - phōsphoros) and read in context is used as a metaphor for Jesus Christ.

In Isaiah 14:12 the Hebrew word is הֵילֵל (Strong's H1966 - heylel) and that looks like an actual name and read in context of a self willed being who will also sit upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north.

God used to sit upon the mount of the congregation in the City of David... so he who sits there now is an impostor.



A secondary question is why it is that the KJV translators, when they translated the Vulgate into English, replaced the root "Lucifer" with either or both "day star" and "morningstar," but that question can wait, because it is quite possibly unanswerable and leads to nothing more than speculation.
No it's quite answerable because there is a verse in Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" and read in context those are beings who watched God create the earth.



I am not fluent in either Hebrew or Arabic, but can you please show me how you get from the Arabic, هليل, to its meaning "crescent" in English? Do you have a link? If so, we'll go from there. Thank you.
Neither am i fluent in Hebrew or Aramic but i recognize the similarity of the Hebrew transliteration Heylel with the Arabic transliteration Hilal which means Crescent and makes sense as that is a symbol of the impostor of Islam.