The Rapture

[Thunderian]

But, I think they will lose faith when they see they aren’t raptured...
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. I don’t think they will be prepared to endure until the end, as they are only waiting for their escape....

I think it does matter which side you are on...can you take it if you are left here, and are now hating God because He left you to endure till the end? That you will have to go through the worst time the world has ever seen with just your faith in God? Knowing that He didn’t rescue you from it? I think that many, many Christians will find their faith crushed because their faith is in rescue not in endurance till the end...

Everyone is always so worried about how us fragile pre-tribbers would deal with going through the Tribulation. What about Christians who are going through tribulation right now in North Korea, China, Iraq or Nigeria?

 

[floss]

I have a question.

How can the rapture happen at any moment when the scripture said that won't be the case until there come a falling away first and the man of sins is revealed. Based on the scripture, it cannot happen at any moment since the two condition must be met first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Thunderian]

I have a question.

How can the rapture happen at any moment when the scripture said that won't be the case until there come a falling away first and the man of sins is revealed. Based on the scripture, it cannot happen at any moment since the two condition must be met first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The day of Christ is the judgement that will take place at the second advent of Jesus Christ. The falling away and the revealing of the antichrist are certainly events that will precede that. The passage has no effect on the imminence of the Rapture, but if it's not read carefully, it can trip people up.

 

[Daciple]

It's not one point of contention. Everything about this discussion flows from how we take the Bible's words on the Church and it's difference from Israel. The fact that you can't see that is just more reason for me not to invest any time in it.

Thats ok bud, I suppose its good to know that if I disagree with an ideology you hold close to heart and bring up meaningful questions to possibly get us to examine both of our perspectives, since I do disagree (not that I cant comprehend your point) it isnt worth discussing. Too bad because I am sure there could have been a wonderful discussion that could have been had by two intelligent people and others who were reading could have learned much from our difference in opinion, and why we believe what we believe.

Its all good tho, I am sure there will come another intelligent person that holds the same doctrine as yourself who wont be so quick to dismiss questions and viewpoints in disagreement or that could possibly cause one to question their preconceived notions concerning this topic and then there can be a legit exchange of thoughts and perspectives and those who havent chosen a side or are questioning these things can actually learn more about them.

Enjoy responding to those who dont oppose your viewpoints or truly contest your dearly held belief in this IMO False Doctrine...

Oh btw I do fully understand the necessity that in your doctrine there MUST be a difference between Israel and the Church, hence why I brought up the discussion, but I guess the fact that you cant see that probably is the real reason you cant answer or address the questions I posed to you... Anywho good day sir

Is there any one else who holds this position that can address the questions I posed to Thunder? Id love to further discuss these points!

 

[Lisa]

Everyone is always so worried about how us fragile pre-tribbers would deal with going through the Tribulation. What about Christians who are going through tribulation right now in North Korea, China, Iraq or Nigeria?

There is going to be a falling away...I do think that Christians will fall away from the faith because they aren’t raptured in the pre trib, they are putting all their faith in being rescued and I do think they will be fragile when they are left behind...

What about them?

 

[Thunderian]

Thats ok bud, I suppose its good to know that if I disagree with an ideology you hold close to heart and bring up meaningful questions to possibly get us to examine both of our perspectives, since I do disagree (not that I cant comprehend your point) it isnt worth discussing. Too bad because I am sure there could have been a wonderful discussion that could have been had by two intelligent people and others who were reading could have learned much from our difference in opinion, and why we believe what we believe.

Its all good tho, I am sure there will come another intelligent person that holds the same doctrine as yourself who wont be so quick to dismiss questions and viewpoints in disagreement or that could possibly cause one to question their preconceived notions concerning this topic and then there can be a legit exchange of thoughts and perspectives and those who havent chosen a side or are questioning these things can actually learn more about them.

Enjoy responding to those who dont oppose your viewpoints or truly contest your dearly held belief in this IMO False Doctrine...

Oh btw I do fully understand the necessity that in your doctrine there MUST be a difference between Israel and the Church, hence why I brought up the discussion, but I guess the fact that you cant see that probably is the real reason you cant answer or address the questions I posed to you... Anywho good day sir

Is there any one else who holds this position that can address the questions I posed to Thunder? Id love to further discuss these points!

So your take on this is that I will only respond to people who don't hold opposing viewpoints? Do you take into account the body of my posts on this board, of which probably 90 percent are in response to people who hold opposing viewpoints to mine?

Are you high?

 

[Lisa]

As I said already, the Tribulation is about the Jews. The seven years are for them. The pre-trib view is not about us escaping destruction as it is about the Jews going through it.

Pre tribbers, like to think that God would spare them from destruction. You can say that they don’t believe that, but they do. So, it is the Jews that will go throughout the world and preach about God to the world...or will the 144,000 be preaching to their own, while the Christians go through the world preaching Jesus?

Pre tribbers are all about how when the Christians are raptured, then a whole bunch of people will be saved and be the Christians that will go through the trib. Some Christians somewhere are sticking around and going through this thing...

Don't you get it, though? Our time here is done. The world will be plunged completely into darkness because Satan and his angels will finally be unrestrained. All Christians can do in that situation is die. There will be 144,000 sealed witnesses, two witnesses in Jerusalem, and an angel flying above the earth, all preaching the gospel to the world. Our little lights would be unnecessary.

No, I don’t get it, it makes absolutely no sense to me that we who are born again and learn all our lives long to trust in God and have faith in Him will be called out when the going gets really tough. Why would He need to do that when He’s been teaching us to trust Him no matter what happens? I think we are the ones that are afraid of what’s coming...with good reason...but that isn’t enough to take us out.

What do you mean that all Christians can do in that situation is die? Surely, many Christian’s will die, since there are martyrs under the alter but Paul tells us that those who are left willl look up and the dead will rise first and then the ones alive will be next. So, there are some that make it through somehow.

Again, it's not our time. What does it matter how long someone has been a Christian? I bet a new Christian during the Tribulation, being hunted for his faith, will have more experience trusting fully in God for his life in his first week of being saved than some guy who lived in the Bible Belt for the last fifty years. Who is the stronger Christian there, do you think? Persecuted believers will always have a deeper appreciation of the mercies of God.

I think that God is telling us it will be our time, He is preparing us in His word that we will be going through the trib, its not like the Jews are reading the Bible and saying...O ya, we better get ready for it are they? But, He is telling us Christians about what is going to happen to us just warning us, like God does.

Revelation 7 -
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
...
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

Yes, they came out of the great tribulation when they were raptured near the end, saved before the wrath....

 

[Lisa]

So your take on this is that I will only respond to people who don't hold opposing viewpoints? Do you take into account the body of my posts on this board, of which probably 90 percent are in response to people who hold opposing viewpoints to mine?

Are you high?

Maybe he is hurt you won’t take the time to debate him, and have written him off?

 

[Thunderian]

There is going to be a falling away...I do think that Christians will fall away from the faith because they aren’t raptured in the pre trib, they are putting all their faith in being rescued and I do think they will be fragile when they are left behind...

What about them?

The falling away will be a global apostasy. Do you really think it's going to be triggered by a bunch of disappointed pre-tribbbers? Most denominations aren't pre-trib, and even in the US, maybe only about a third of Christians identify as believers in a pre-trib Rapture. The numbers don't add up.

 

[Daciple]

So your take on this is that I will only respond to people who don't hold opposing viewpoints? Do you take into account the body of my posts on this board, of which probably 90 percent are in response to people who hold opposing viewpoints to mine?

Are you high?

So how about we have a discussion concerning the questions I brought up instead of why or why not you are not willing to engage in discussion? Wouldnt that be more productive? Or are you just not able to formulate answers, defend your position, or rebut what has been said?

Faith in the coming Messiah is not the same as being a part of a church that is built on the shed blood of that Messiah.

According to Scripture when was the Lamb slain and thus the Blood actually shed?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Was or was not the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World? If He was Slain from the foundation then why do you distinguish between those who had Faith in the Lamb before He was revealed and after He was revealed if the Blood was shed and the Lamb was Slain before Time began?

Does or does not the Blood flow from before the Beginning of Time until the End of Time?

 

[Thunderian]

Does or does not the Blood flow from before the Beginning of Time until the End of Time?

Yes, but that does not equal membership in the Church.

The Church is the bride of Christ, comprised of believers who are sealed at salvation with the Holy Spirit. Old Testament believers were never sealed with the Holy Spirit. If they were, when did or does that occur?

The bride of Christ will be presented to him "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." If Israel is already God's unfaithful wife, how does she manage to disguise herself as a spotless virgin and become the bride of Christ?

 

[Thunderian]

I can't stress this enough, but the Bible is clear that the relationship the Church has with Jesus Christ is completely different than any believer in any other age will have. If you get that wrong, nothing else adds up properly.

 

[TokiEl]

I have a question.

How can the rapture happen at any moment when the scripture said that won't be the case until there come a falling away first and the man of sins is revealed. Based on the scripture, it cannot happen at any moment since the two condition must be met first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I suggest the falling away has already happened as i am old enough to observe the current crumbling of Christianity in our high tech civilisation compared to just three or four decades ago. Also the Man of Sin is called the son of perdition which is what Jesus Christ called Judas Iscariot in John 17:12.

So the Man of Sin seems to be the same as the Antichrist in the First and Second Epistle of John. Someone who come from Christendom and appear as a Christian but is in fact not.

And that could be the Pope who has been revealed to the whole world with the unrestrained advancement of technology such as TV and internett.

 

[Serveto]

I suggest the falling away has already happened as i am old enough to observe the current crumbling of Christianity in our high tech civilisation compared to just three or four decades ago. Also the Man of Sin is called the son of perdition which is what Jesus Christ called Judas Iscariot in John 17:12.

So the Man of Sin seems to be the same as the Antichrist in the First and Second Epistle of John. Someone who come from Christendom and appear as a Christian but is in fact not.

And that could be the Pope who has been revealed to the whole world with the unrestrained advancement of technology such as TV and internett.

Questions, in this case, arise. How could the Antichrist be the Pope if Jews (of Orthodox Judaism) accept him as their Messiah? The Antichrist, it seems to me, is going to be a Jew, a scion of the (physical) Kingdom of David, who comes to confirm the Jews in their Torah and Talmud. They will accept nobody else.

According to Maimonides (pp. 398-400), who gave specific criteria:

"King Messiah will arise and restore the kingdom of David to its former state and original sovereignty. He will rebuild the sanctuary and gather the dispersed of Israel. All the ancient laws will be reinstated in his days: sacrifices will again be offered the Sabbatical and Jubilee years will again be observed in accordance with the commandments set forth in the law ...

If there arise a king from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments, as did his ancestor David, observes the precepts prescribed in the Written [Torah] and the Oral Law [Talmud], prevails upon Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to repair its breaches, and fights the battles of the Lord, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah. If he does things and succeeds, rebuilds the sanctuary on its site, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is beyond all doubt the Messiah. He will prepare the whole world to serve the Lord with one accord ... "
​

 

[TokiEl]

Questions, in this case, arise. How could the Antichrist be the Pope if Jews (of Orthodox Judaism) accept him as their Messiah? The Antichrist, it seems to me, is going to be a Jew, a scion of the (physical) Kingdom of David, who comes to confirm the Jews in their Torah and Talmud. They will accept nobody else.

Actually i think the top tier of the international community hoped that Islam would finish what was begun by the Third reich known as the Final Solution. God knows they've tried but not yet been able to conquer a handful of holocaust survivors.

No i think they (as a coalition of Russia Iran Turkey and more) will try to attack Israel again this year which will begin the Great tribulation.

 

[TokiEl]

I am interested to hear your perspective on things, but I don't understand how this addresses the issue of whether or not the Antichrist is also the Pope, especially as that relates to the Messiah whom Jews will accept.

The Jews have not yet collectively accepted the Messiah although more and more do and are known as Messianic Jews.

Israel is seeking alliances or cooperation wherever they may find it also with the Pope and even Saudi-Arabia but as far as i see it is not explicitly stated in Scripture that they will accept the Antichrist.

 

[Lisa]

The falling away will be a global apostasy. Do you really think it's going to be triggered by a bunch of disappointed pre-tribbbers? Most denominations aren't pre-trib, and even in the US, maybe only about a third of Christians identify as believers in a pre-trib Rapture. The numbers don't add up.

Pre tribbers are only in America? There are a lot of pre tribbers...and ya, I think it will be a big deal when they are still here. Don’t pre tribbers think that if you are left behind then you weren’t really a believer? That will mess with them, thinking that they weren’t really believers and thinking...but, but, I did this and thought that and here I still am? When the rapture wasn’t about saving us from the great tribulation, it was saving us from the wrath of God.
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience. Colossians 3:5-6

 

[Thunderian]

Questions, in this case, arise. How could the Antichrist be the Pope if Jews (of Orthodox Judaism) accept him as their Messiah? The Antichrist, it seems to me, is going to be a Jew, a scion of the (physical) Kingdom of David, who comes to confirm the Jews in their Torah and Talmud. They will accept nobody else.

The Bible doesn't say that the Jews will accept the antichrist as their Messiah.

 

[Daciple]

Yes, but that does not equal membership in the Church.

Well from the original question I was saying that those in OT had Faith in the coming Messiah, and that we have Faith in the Messiah who has come, you distinguished that there is a difference in the OT had Faith but it isnt the same as being built on the Blood of the Messiah.

If the Blood flows from the beginning of Time, and the OT had Faith in THAT Blood, the Blood of the Messiah to come, then why would they not be considered part of the Church? Thats the progression I am trying to understand. We (The Church) are saved by Faith thru Grace in the shed Blood of the Messiah. The Blood flows from the beginning of time, thus the OT who had Faith in the Messiah to come are also covered and had Faith in the same Blood so why a distinction and rejection of them from the Church?

The Salvation of Israel was and is built on the Blood of the Lamb and that Blood flows from the beginning of time there is no difference in Salvation for them or us or anyone else...

The Church is the bride of Christ, comprised of believers who are sealed at salvation with the Holy Spirit. Old Testament believers were never sealed with the Holy Spirit. If they were, when did or does that occur?

So I would like to know why you suggest that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the definitive aspect of the Church? I would think that what makes someone a part of the Church is Salvation, do they believe and are they Saved. It is apparent that the method in which the Holy Spirit operated was different between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant but the Holy Spirit was still operating. In fact I was reading in Acts last night and Stephen said this right before the Jews murdered him:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I could quote many more Scriptures concerning the fact that the Holy Spirit was in operation during the Old Testament, and as I have stated in the past everyone has always been saved the same, by Faith thru Grace. There is definitely a difference in the operation of the Holy Spirit then and now, but how does the method in which the Holy Spirit operate determine ones inclusion or exclusion into the Church. In my view its simply are you saved or not, that is what includes one into the Church regardless of what era they are saved.

What does Scripture say concerning the Body of Christ (is this a metaphor for the Church in your mind, it is for me?)...

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

When I read this I dont see a separation, I see those that were NOT included (the Gentiles) being ushered into something established by the Old Testament Saints and now the Gentiles become fellowcitizens with those from the Old Testament that were saved and now we ALL are ONE body. This Scripture pretty much says those in the future will be added to those in the past making ONE body and ONE building, there is no distinction between Old and New here.

I would say the onus is on you to show the separation via Scripture alone not preconceived ideologies, that the Church is a wholly different and separate entity that is not at all comprised of ANYONE from the Old Testament...

The bride of Christ will be presented to him "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." If Israel is already God's unfaithful wife, how does she manage to disguise herself as a spotless virgin and become the bride of Christ?

So let me ask are WE spotless and a virgin before coming to Christ? I dont believe we are instead we are REDEEMED and MADE to be spotless by the Blood. The Old Testament as I have shown in the previous posts speaks specifically as God REDEEMING and RESTORING the Bride from its infidelity. We were unfaithful in the same manner as Israel, but I think the biggest problem is trying to make Israel dealt with as a WHOLE NATION instead of as individuals. As I posted previously Paul says Israel isnt NOT all Israel but only the believers make up Israel. The individuals are REDEEMED, just as we were, the individuals are RESTORED just as we were.

Do you believe God to be a polygamous? If God Restores and Redeems Israel as His Bride and also has us as His Bride then He has 2 Brides. Do you believe God will have 2 Brides? I surely dont, God has ONE Bride that consists of the believers that were in Israel and us now...

I can't stress this enough, but the Bible is clear that the relationship the Church has with Jesus Christ is completely different than any believer in any other age will have. If you get that wrong, nothing else adds up properly.

I understand your necessity in stressing such a point, even if you can not prove such a thing exists via Scripture alone because if we begin to understand that all the Promises given to Israel have been fulfilled in the New Covenant then your entire ideology falls apart. As you said nothing will add up properly and that is exactly what I am trying to work thru with you. If the Church ISNT a separate entity, if the Israel ISNT wholly apart from the Church then how can you still believe in this restoration of Israel physically?

Hopefully you can understand the purpose of my questioning, and discuss it instead of brushing it off because I dont accept the premise that there is a difference between those who were saved in Israel and believers today... I fully understand your position, I used to believe as you do now, but I am finding problems with these positions, are you willing to discuss and work thru with me the questions I have?

 

[Thunderian]

Pre tribbers are only in America?

I said EVEN in the US, only about a third of Christians believe in the pre-trib Rapture, and that's probably a high estimate. I understand that acceptance of the pre-trib point of view doesn't only take place in the US. As I pointed out, most denominations do not hold the pre-trib view. That's OK, because it's not a requirement for salvation. It will just be a nice surprise for them.

There are a lot of pre tribbers...and ya, I think it will be a big deal when they are still here. Don’t pre tribbers think that if you are left behind then you weren’t really a believer? That will mess with them, thinking that they weren’t really believers and thinking...but, but, I did this and thought that and here I still am?

Your whole theory rests on the premise that everyone who believes in the pre-trib Rapture has faith that is so fragile they will completely reject God if they are don't get Raptured. Are you sure about this?

When the rapture wasn’t about saving us from the great tribulation, it was saving us from the wrath of God.

The Rapture should be viewed as one event within the Day of the Lord, which is a time of judgement and redemption. Born again Christians have already been judged and redeemed. Despite what you may think, there is no good Biblical reason why any would go through the Tribulation.