Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

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Excellent thought!

I had purposefully chosen to stay out of this thread but Red's post has sucked me in and provoked this train of thought!

For both sides arguing about the deity of Christ...it's best to take a trip to the throne room in heaven to see what happens there. We have a faithful representation of what to expect when we get there! Revelation chapters 4 & 5. (esp 4:9-10, 5:8,13,14).
The 4 living creatures described in Revelation also appear in chapter 1 of Ezekiel...described as Cherubim in chapter 10. If you feel so inclined, consider the throne room scene described in Isaiah 6 as well as Daniel 7:9-14

If Cherubim, that encircle God's throne, fall down in worship, day & night, before God and the Lamb then it stands to reason that Lucifer, as a guardian cherub (Ezekiel 28:14), also used to fall down in worshipping Him "who is before all things and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:17)

Those not prepared to bow down and worship the Son of Man (Daniel 7:14), just give us a heads up.

Study your bibles, people! :)
What's interesting is I am, and it's currently what my job entails as we counsel people who've fallen on hard times. :)Jesus is not be worshipped, it's really that simple. He was sent to show us the way, as @Todd has often said. We revere Jesus because he's the Messiah, as it's explained, but his message was to worship the Heavenly Father and understand the "Imago Dei".

But as I've said, if those want to worship him, go right ahead, it's not about him, it's about the message he wanted to spread to the world.

EDIT: I'll add this because this is what the trinity is implying. It's an oldie but still a goodie:

 
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A Freeman

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Excellent thought!

I had purposefully chosen to stay out of this thread but Red's post has sucked me in and provoked this train of thought!

For both sides arguing about the deity of Christ...it's best to take a trip to the throne room in heaven to see what happens there. We have a faithful representation of what to expect when we get there! Revelation chapters 4 & 5. (esp 4:9-10, 5:8,13,14).
The 4 living creatures described in Revelation also appear in chapter 1 of Ezekiel...described as Cherubim in chapter 10. If you feel so inclined, consider the throne room scene described in Isaiah 6 as well as Daniel 7:9-14

If Cherubim, that encircle God's throne, fall down in worship, day & night, before God and the Lamb then it stands to reason that Lucifer, as a guardian cherub (Ezekiel 28:14), also used to fall down in worshipping Him "who is before all things and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:17)

Those not prepared to bow down and worship the Son of Man (Daniel 7:14), just give us a heads up.

Study your bibles, people! :)
Agreed that everyone should study the Bible. And that every knee should bow before Christ, the head of every man.

Phillipians 2:9-11
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Christ), and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of the Saviour every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in Earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Christ Jesus [is] Lord, to the glory of GOD THE FATHER.

How can anyone argue over "the deity of Christ" if there is no such thing? Where in the Bible does Christ ever claim to be "the deity", or part of "the deity", etc.? The answer is nowhere. Father (God) created Christ, Father anointed Christ, and Father appointed Christ to be heir, by making Christ the Firstborn Son. But Christ is still subject to Father, because Father is Christ's God (1 Cor. 11:3).

Christ is the created Son of God according to Scriptures. Why is this important? As long as someone mistakenly believes that Christ (or Jesus, whom Christ incarnated 2000 years ago) is God, or that God is divided into multiple parts or personalities, it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to get to know either Christ (the Firstborn Son OF God) or Father (God).

No one who truly loves Father and truly loves his/her neighbour would want their neighbour to be kept from getting to know how amazing both Father and His Anointed One really are by some satanic, man-made doctrine that claims God is divided into 3 parts/personalities or individuals.

John 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, EVERY kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
 
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A Freeman

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1 Corinthians 15:23-28
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] The End, when he shall have delivered up The Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For He (Father) must reign, till He (Father) hath put all enemies under his (Christ's) feet.
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
15:27 For He (Father) hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet. But when He (Father) saith all things are put under [him -- Christ, it is] manifest that He (Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Christ).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (Father) that put all things under him (Christ), that God (The Father) may be all in all.
 
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Nimrod - Semeramis - Tammuz
For debate's sake, let's say there is legitimacy to the trinity. Okay so now what? What or how should Christians that believe this do or treat their fellow man when there's so much pain and suffering in the world? What exactly is being accomplished in the belief of the trinity that isn't being done by others that don't? If you're making communities stronger and able to build people up, rather than bringing them down, standing up to injustices that have been inflicted by today's "rulers" then I say, kudos to you (objectively speaking). However, this topic has done nothing but emphasize the fact that there's a sect of people that want to believe something so desperately, they're ultimately willing to do some mental gymnastics into ascribing to something that has proven to have pagan origins.

I might add, and will all due respect, you've done the same thing with the name "Israel". Jesus' message was to create a little heaven on earth to understand that's what the Heavenly Father wants from us in order to return to His kingdom, not be a materialist and literalist because the Kingdom of God is in the hearts of men (Luke 17:20-21). Not to mention the old saying that "ego" is an acronym for "edging God out", which is what the belief in the trinity seems to be doing, online, anyway.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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For debate's sake, let's say there is legitimacy to the trinity. Okay so now what? What or how should Christians that believe this do or treat their fellow man when there's so much pain and suffering in the world? What exactly is being accomplished in the belief of the trinity that isn't being done by others that don't? If you're making communities stronger and able to build people up, rather than bringing them down, standing up to injustices that have been inflicted by today's "rulers" then I say, kudos to you (objectively speaking). However, this topic has done nothing but emphasize the fact that there's a sect of people that want to believe something so desperately, they're ultimately willing to do some mental gymnastics into ascribing to something that has proven to have pagan origins.

I might add, and will all due respect, you've done the same thing with the name "Israel". Jesus' message was to create a little heaven on earth to understand that's what the Heavenly Father wants from us in order to return to His kingdom, not be a materialist and literalist because the Kingdom of God is in the hearts of men (Luke 17:20-21). Not to mention the old saying that "ego" is an acronym for "edging God out", which is what the belief in the trinity seems to be doing, online, anyway.
Are you asking me why a belief in the Trinity matters, in the wider context of the battle of good and evil in this world?
 

ToxicFemininitySucks

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Luke 5:20-24
20And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. 21And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? 22But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? 23Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? 24But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. 25And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.
Jesus forgives sins, only God has the power to forgive sins. What does this indicate?

And, as i already posted, Luke 8:39.
Ok, i haven't seen this mentioned.

Luke 8:39

38Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.
So either God=Jesus, or the man gave the credit wrongly to Jesus instead of God. And Luke didn't think to make a note of it or correct it while telling the story. Seems unlikely.

The matching passage in Mark 5 says "Lord".
19Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. 20And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel
So Jesus=Lord and God=Lord. What conclusion follows?
I do have a friend who is unsure of the trinity, or as the Bible would call it, the Godhead. So if there are any refutations to the verses ive posted i would love to hear them.
 

Maldarker

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Same can be said about granting eternal life forgiving sins etc all that are attributes of GOD so.....(JESUS IS GOD)

But wait for it the gymnasts are warming up....
Up next is the rings & then the pummel horse....
 

A Freeman

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Is the Bible somehow not the Word of God? Is the Word of God not the Truth?

What does the word "word" mean? Is it not a single unit of language that has meaning and can be spoken or written?

God sent ALL of His Prophets with His Word (Message of Truth), and finally His Eldest/Firstborn Son and all the evil majority has done is to beat and murder God's Prophets and finally God's Son, because almost everyone on this planet hates the Truth.

Matthew 21:33-46
21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent His servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took His servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, He sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all He sent unto them His son, saying, They will respect my Son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:40 When the Lord therefore of the Vineyard cometh, what will He do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [His] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render Him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the Corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (the "10 lost tribes" - the "House of Israel").
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this Stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and politicians had heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them.
21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a Prophet.
 
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@Orwell's mentor My argument - it says the Word was God in the first lines of John

How's that mental gymnastics? I'm seeing a lot of verbose mental gymnastics from those that don't accept these simple clear and concise words.
Couldn't the same be said for Son of Man and Son of God? Anyway, believe what you want. Like I said if the trinity suits you, knock yourself out. I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it here. My guess is no one will watch it because no one wants to open their mind to another perspective, as they're looking for confirmation biases as I stated earlier:

The Case for Christ Lee Strobel
 
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I’m trying to paraphrase your question - have I understood you properly?
What I meant is, who or what does the trinity serve in scheme of things? If the trinity belief is a club, what does this club actually DO to serve humanity and help strengthen communities? Is it doing anything to actually make this world a better place?

This debate could go on until the Second Coming, lol! The question I ask is what are the "club's" ACTIONS that help others while they're alive here on earth?
 

A Freeman

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Luke 5:20-24

Jesus forgives sins, only God has the power to forgive sins.
Wasn't this precisely the erroneous assumption made by the lawyers/scribes, because of their ignorance of the Scriptures, that led them to wrongly conclude that Jesus was committing blasphemy by exercising the power that God gave Jesus?

Mark 2:5-10
2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
2:6 But there were certain of the lawyers sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts (Jer. 17:9),
2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on Earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

What does this indicate?
That Father (God) GAVE Jesus the power to forgive sins, exactly as Jesus said.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 5:26-27
5:26 For as the Father hath Life in Himself; so hath He GIVEN to the Son to have Life in himself;
5:27 And hath GIVEN him authority to execute Judgment also, because he is the Son of Man

Our All-Powerful God and Heavenly Father doesn't need anyone to give Him anything, so it should be self-evident that Jesus being given the power to forgive sins is proof that Jesus is NOT God. The Son wouldn't even have life if Father hadn't given it to the Son (by creating the Son).

And, as i already posted, Luke 8:39.
Matthew 5:16 Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

ALL of the power and glory belongs to Father, Who works THROUGH His Children, i.e. those who strive to do Father's Will.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the Will of the Father which hath sent me.

I do have a friend who is unsure of the trinity, or as the Bible would call it, the Godhead. So if there are any refutations to the verses ive posted i would love to hear them.
As above please.
 
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What does the word "word" mean? Is it not a single unit of language that has meaning and can be spoken or written?
Good question, the Word spoken of is Logos in Greek.
from Miriam webster
Logos- : reason that in ancient Greek philosophy is the controlling principle in the universe

So the ancient Greeks who read “Kai Theos en ha Logos” in John 1, “And God was the Logos” would understand the thousands of years of tradition they had of the philosophy of Logos, which was logic, reason, language, natural law, morality, in a metaphysical sense. When John wrote that Jesus was the deity of the Logos incarnated, that was the fulfillment of presocratic and platonic philosophy, which had prepared people to understand this.
So no, it’s not saying the word meant The Bible existed in the beginning with God, it’s actually saying exactly what it says . It doesn’t need you to comment and twist the meaning a thousand ways. All it needs is for you to accept or reject the meaning that is there, take your pick.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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What I meant is, who or what does the trinity serve in scheme of things? If the trinity belief is a club, what does this club actually DO to serve humanity and help strengthen communities? Is it doing anything to actually make this world a better place?

This debate could go on until the Second Coming, lol! The question I ask is what are the "club's" ACTIONS that help others while they're alive here on earth?
By becoming a member of the select club, I take it to mean those who are born again. The phrase is deliberately confrontational as it suggests a supernatural encounter with God that causes a new spiritual identity to be created. Galatians 2 puts it far better…

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

I came to faith when I was perhaps 10 years old listening to an old cassette. Nobody told me that Jesus was God - to start with I just knew he was my Saviour, but as I began to know the Lord, without anyone really telling me, it made sense.

What does being “born again” even mean and what does it actually accomplish?

I have a mental image of a medieval town, with a controlling tyrant holed up far out of sight in a heavily protected central building.

F4D453C2-0696-4B44-B8B6-42D9B855651C.jpeg

From this building, the despot has been able to exert power over the whole town. Parts of it had been able to shake off control from time to time (rather like in the Hunger Games) but before long the troops would march in and things would be back to normal.

I then imagine a crack SAS unit moving in, getting past the defences, killing the tyrant and installing a new leader. The rest of the town might wake up and find nothing changed on the streets the next morning, but over time things may be very different.

I believe that in a way, WE are this town, once occupied by our sinful nature inherited from the Fall, and the results that sin and influences have had on the various districts of our lives. Those of us who are born again have had a new leader installed in the centre and our life is to go with him and take back the town to become something someone from outside might see the difference.
I love the verse “Christ IN us, the hope of glory” as it is only the work of Jesus that changes and develops us. Some faiths are “sideways” inasmuch as they spend all their time correcting and chastising believers in their faith communities about various infringements.

Christianity is an “inside out” faith where the reality of a reborn spirit works out into observable changes that others see. I believe it is the Holy Spirit who is the one who brings changes in believers lives, talking with the inner man of the heart. With our own towns very much a work of transformation in progress, we should take care when judging others, as in the end it will be the Lord who will judge the quality of our works.

It must be honestly noted that some people who are “saved” make no earthly difference at all. Perhaps in this analogy they sit comfortably in the knowledge that their spiritual town has a new leader, but never go out and take back ground, which is a tragedy.

I have never been very fond of religion as I think that often religious observance is social action is done out of fear and a desire to be accounted “good enough”. Instead, gratitude for the gift of eternal life should be our motivation for good works done out of a heart of love.
 
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Axl888

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How can anyone be an unequal portion of The Most High God (Father)? And where does it say anywhere in Scripture that two or three individuals are really unequal portions of one individual? Or do you believe God is a group? And why would Christ call Father His God? Why would Paul reiterate that by saying the head of Christ is God (Father)?

And again, why did Christ, while He was here in the body of Jesus, pray to Father unless Father IS God? Shouldn't we be following Christ's Example? That was and still is the entire point of this thread (pointing out that obedience to Father by following Christ's Example is The Way that leads to Life, which very few find).
Here is a simple explanation for you:

head of a man + torso of the same man + limbs of the same man = 1 whole man

soul + body + spirit = 1 living man

Father + Son + Holy Spirit = Godhead

0.4 + 0.3 + 0.3 = 1
0.5 + 0.3 + 0.2 = 1
...so on and so forth
 
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