Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

[lightseeker]

In the quote from Revelation, Christ (The Lamb) is likened to a lamp for God's Glory and Light, to shine through.

Christ saying that whoever has seen him has seen The Father fits this exactly again because The Light/God was seen shining/emanating from/through him by those who saw him

But Christ said “I am the Light”. He didn’t say Gods light shines in me. He said I am the light.
Again, he said I am the truth. He didn’t say I speak the truth. He said I am the Truth. I hope you can appreciate the immense difference. If he was a simple prophet, of course he would say I speak the truth, but he gave a statement about his being, his identity, saying I AM the Truth.

If Christ was equal to God as is claimed and generalised as doctrine by Christianity, then he would not have needed to pray to God to ask Him and he would not have had to submit his own will to do the Will of God his Father instead. But that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that Christ asked Father if the cup could pass from him, but not his, but Father's Will be done

Christ was with God before creation, and was God.
”in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Christ is the Word of God, his expression, his light as you like to say. The invisible God expressed. The fact that he does Gods will, prays to him, doesn’t exemplify a dissimilarity between them. Christ taught that he was with God before creation, so why wouldn’t he pray to him?

The fact is that by saying Jesus was just a prophet or a good person, there are innumerable instances in the Bible that you can’t give an account for, such as him saying I am the light, and John 1 saying the Word was God and the word became flesh. By accepting those passages, the fact that Jesus prays to God, does his will, teaches his doctrine, is not a contradiction, it aligns with the rest of the theology of the trinity.

 

[The Sojourner]

But Christ said “I am the Light”. He didn’t say Gods light shines in me. He said I am the light.
Again, he said I am the truth. He didn’t say I speak the truth. He said I am the Truth. I hope you can appreciate the immense difference. If he was a simple prophet, of course he would say I speak the truth, but he gave a statement about his being, his identity, saying I AM the Truth.

Christ was with God before creation, and was God.
”in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Christ is the Word of God, his expression, his light as you like to say. The invisible God expressed. The fact that he does Gods will, prays to him, doesn’t exemplify a dissimilarity between them. Christ taught that he was with God before creation, so why wouldn’t he pray to him?

The fact is that by saying Jesus was just a prophet or a good person, there are innumerable instances in the Bible that you can’t give an account for, such as him saying I am the light, and John 1 saying the Word was God and the word became flesh. By accepting those passages, the fact that Jesus prays to God, does his will, teaches his doctrine, is not a contradiction, it aligns with the rest of the theology of the trinity.

If Christ wanted us to believe that he is equal to God, then why did he say my Father is greater than I?

If not to do the exact opposite, by clearing up any misunderstanding. You must believe that Father is greater than Christ, if you are going to believe Christ and fully accept His Teaching.

If he is equal to God, then why say it at all - my Father is greater than I?

He again said, my Father is greater than all. To believe therefore that he and Father are equal, is to dismiss some of what Christ clearly said, in favour of how you choose to interpret only some of the other things said by him and/or by his students.

Christ has always been one with Father, to me, is what it is saying. We have not always been at one with Him, including other prophets and messengers. That is what makes Christ different from any other prophet or messenger that the world has ever seen. He is and has always been true and at one with Father, from the beginning. That is how it makes sense to me, because otherwise, you have to believe some of what he said but not all of it. This is not telling you or anyone how you or they should believe though. We each need to ask for Guidance so that God can then guide us to the Truth. Like it says, we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[A Freeman]

John 1:1 In the Beginning was the Word (Truth - in Hebrew is Nazir), and the Truth was with God (NOT with Lucifer/Satan the Devil), and the Word was God.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.

 

[The Sojourner]

Example, read the first chapter of Hebrews and it directly contradicts some of Freeman’s most asserted statements. It says directly
-Christ is not an angel
-Christ is not a prophet
-Christ is the Son of God
-through him, God created the world of time
-he is the full expression of God’s Being
-all creation depends on him for support
-God tells all the angels to worship him
-when all of creation perishes, he will remain
-he never changes and will never end

In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means,[1] through the prophets; now at last 2 in these times he has spoken to us with a Son to speak for him; a Son, whom he has appointed to inherit all things, just as it was through him that he created this world of time; 3 a Son, who is the radiance of his Father’s splendour, and the full expression of his being;[2] all creation depends, for its support, on his enabling word. Now, making atonement for our sins, he has taken his place on high, at the right hand of God’s majesty, 4 superior to the angels in that measure in which the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.[3] 5 Did God ever say to one of the angels, Thou art my Son, I have begotten thee this day? And again, He shall find in me a Father, and I in him a Son?[4] 6 Why, when the time comes for bringing his first-born into the world anew, then, he says, Let all the angels of God worship before him.[5] 7 What does he say of the angels? He will have his angels be like the winds, the servants that wait on him like a flame of fire.[6] 8 And what of the Son? Thy throne, O God, stands firm for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingship is a rod that rules true. 9 Thou hast been a friend to right, an enemy to wrong; and God, thy own God, has given thee an unction to bring thee pride, as none else of thy fellows.[7] 10 And elsewhere: Lord, thou hast laid the foundations of the earth at its beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 11 They will perish, but thou wilt remain; they will all be like a cloak that grows threadbare, 12 and thou wilt lay them aside, like a garment, and exchange them for new; but thou art he who never changes, thy years will not come to an end.[8] 13 Did he ever say to one of the angels, Sit on my right hand, while I make thy enemies a footstool under thy feet?[9] 14 What are they, all of them, but spirits apt for service, whom he sends out when the destined heirs of eternal salvation have need of them?

Very beautiful, no? thats why christians have been schismatic over all types of things, but this was never really a common debate. Anyone who’s read the bible it’s clear, it’s only freemans cut and paste projects that can make it seem like it doesn’t say these things.

Just to point out, Christ was actually called a Prophet several times in the Bible. Him being the Prophet that Moses wrote about.

Deuteronomy 18:15, 18 (See Acts 3:22-23)
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.. . .
I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.”

Matthew 13:57
And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.”

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

So, its actually not correct to conclude that Christ is not a prophet based on the first chapter of Hebrews.

 

[lightseeker]

If Christ wanted us to believe that he is equal to God, then why did he say my Father is greater than I?

If not to do the exact opposite, by clearing up any misunderstanding. You must believe that Father is greater than Christ, if you are going to believe Christ and accept His Teaching.

If he is equal to God, then why say it at all - my Father is greater than I?

He again said, my Father is greater than all. To believe therefore that he and Father are equal, is to dismiss some of what Christ clearly said, in favour of how you choose to interpret only some of the other things said by him and/or by his students.

Christ has always been one with Father, is what it is saying. We have not always been at one with Him, including other prophets and messengers. That is what makes Christ different from any other prophet or messenger that the world has ever seen. He is and has always been true and at one with Father.

The trinity doesn’t say he’s equal to God, it says he eternally begotten of the Father. Without the Father Christ can do nothing because Christ is the perfect expression of the Father. He does nothing on his own, because whatever he does, the Father does in him. He is a part of the Father. He doesn’t have a separate existence to God. as Jesus said, he is One with the Father. So those statements are in concordance with what has been said previously.

He is and has always been true and at one with Father.

Agreed.

Christ is actually called a Prophet several times in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18:15, 18 (See Acts 3:22-23)
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.. . .
I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.”

Matthew 13:57
And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.”

So, its not correct to conclude that Christ is not a prophet based on an interpretation of Hebrews 1

It is incorrect to say he is only a prophet like prophets before him, as Paul said in Hebrews, because he is something more than that. Again, this is what Paul says in hebrews so your disagreement is with him as you acknowledge. I already cited several other reasons in the last post.

John 1:1 In the Beginning was the Word (Truth - in Hebrew is Nazir), and the Truth was with God (NOT with Lucifer/Satan the Devil), and the Word was God.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.

I don’t think you’re going to be able to editorialize your way out of that one. That effort certainly fell short.

 

[The Sojourner]

The trinity doesn’t say he’s equal to God, it says he eternally begotten of the Father. Without the Father Christ can do nothing because Christ is the perfect expression of the Father. He does nothing on his own, because whatever he does, the Father does in him. He is a part of the Father. He doesn’t have a separate existence to God. as Jesus said, he is One with the Father. So those statements are in concordance with what has been said previously.


Agreed.

It is incorrect to say he is only a prophet like prophets before him, as Paul said in Hebrews, because he is something more than that. Again, this is what Paul says in hebrews so your disagreement is with him as you acknowledge. I already cited several other reasons in the last post.

I don’t think you’re going to be able to editorialize your way out of that one. That effort certainly fell short.

You posted saying that according to the first chapter of Hebrews, it says directly, that Christ is not a prophet. I then quoted your post showing this and then offered you correction quoting from scripture.

Saying Christ is not a prophet, is not the same as saying Christ is not only a prophet, like you have done now, which is changing what you said previously.

Christ is certainly more than just a Prophet, agreed. He is after all, also Christ, as it says and I think we agree on.

But Christ is certainly a Prophet as well, as was shown.

 

[lightseeker]

You posted saying that according to the first chapter of Hebrews, it says directly, that Christ is not a prophet. I then quoted your post showing this and then offered you correction quoting from scripture.

Saying Christ is not a prophet, is not the same as saying Christ is not only a prophet, like you have done now, which is changing what you said previously.

Christ is certainly more than just a Prophet, agreed. He is after all, also Christ, as it says and I think we agree on.

But Christ is certainly a Prophet as well, as was shown.

I accept that, Christ is a prophet but not only a prophet because he is distinct from all other prophets, in that he is someone different.
Namely, he is the light of the world, he is the truth, he is the Word who was with God and was God in the beginning, he existed with God before creation, etc.
So he fits all the definitions of prophet but that description doesn’t encompass his identity at all.

 

[A Freeman]

Some additional "inconvenient" truth about the unscriptural trinity delusion.

Where is the third member of the "trinity" in any of the verses misquoted by "trinitarians" as proof of their 3=1 god?

The Holy Spirit is literally and metaphorically absent from the "trinitarian" misinterpretation of every single "proof" of the so-called trinity, including but not limited to:

John 1:1
John 10:30
John 17:3
Philippians 2:6
Hebrews 1
ALL of the references to The Throne of God in Revelation

The ONLY place where "trinitarian" wording is found is where it was very obviously and maliciously added (Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7) by the Roman Catholic church. The original Biblical text clearly did not include ANY mention of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost". And neither did the Roman Catholic influenced versions for centuries.

 

[A Freeman]

Also, since those attempting to defend the indefensible and unscriptural "trinity" doctrine have made claims that the three characters in their made-up 3=1 god are not necessarily equal (or not all almighty/all-powerful, all-knowing/omniscient and/or ever-present/omnipresent), it may be worth reviewing the seminary document that defines the "trinity", which virtually all protestant denominations have adopted from the "mother church" (the RCC):

The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

-------

Being eternal means being infinite, everlasting and timeless. So for three Beings to be co-eternal and co-equal, there could NEVER be a time when any of them were subject to human limitations.

Thus the self-contradictory trinity doctrine cannot possibly be describing The One True God.

 

[Orwell's mentor]

By becoming a member of the select club, I take it to mean those who are born again. The phrase is deliberately confrontational as it suggests a supernatural encounter with God that causes a new spiritual identity to be created. Galatians 2 puts it far better…

“ 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”​

I came to faith when I was perhaps 10 years old listening to an old cassette. Nobody told me that Jesus was God - to start with I just knew he was my Saviour, but as I began to know the Lord, without anyone really telling me, it made sense.

What does being “born again” even mean and what does it actually accomplish?

I have a mental image of a medieval town, with a controlling tyrant holed up far out of sight in a heavily protected central building.

View attachment 81389

From this building, the despot has been able to exert power over the whole town. Parts of it had been able to shake off control from time to time (rather like in the Hunger Games) but before long the troops would march in and things would be back to normal.

I then imagine a crack SAS unit moving in, getting past the defences, killing the tyrant and installing a new leader. The rest of the town might wake up and find nothing changed on the streets the next morning, but over time things may be very different.

I believe that in a way, WE are this town, once occupied by our sinful nature inherited from the Fall, and the results that sin and influences have had on the various districts of our lives. Those of us who are born again have had a new leader installed in the centre and our life is to go with him and take back the town to become something someone from outside might see the difference.
I love the verse “Christ IN us, the hope of glory” as it is only the work of Jesus that changes and develops us. Some faiths are “sideways” inasmuch as they spend all their time correcting and chastising believers in their faith communities about various infringements.

Christianity is an “inside out” faith where the reality of a reborn spirit works out into observable changes that others see. I believe it is the Holy Spirit who is the one who brings changes in believers lives, talking with the inner man of the heart. With our own towns very much a work of transformation in progress, we should take care when judging others, as in the end it will be the Lord who will judge the quality of our works.

It must be honestly noted that some people who are “saved” make no earthly difference at all. Perhaps in this analogy they sit comfortably in the knowledge that their spiritual town has a new leader, but never go out and take back ground, which is a tragedy.

I have never been very fond of religion as I think that often religious observance is social action is done out of fear and a desire to be accounted “good enough”. Instead, gratitude for the gift of eternal life should be our motivation for good works done out of a heart of love.

Interesting analogy. However, I disagree with the idea that people who are "saved" make no earthly difference at all. I think if one has that perspective in life, that would inevitably and undoubtedly turn apathetic, which very often is the case. It's the reason why I asked the question as there are many who want to believe something, sit on the sidelines of life and shun the rest of the society. Heck! Some even go so far as to cheer evil people on.

P.s. @Orwell's mentor - I thought this was on point as well….

It is. Jesus, in his perfection, was sent by the Heavenly Father to show us how to live and treat each other because that's what He wants from all of us and what heaven will be like. Again, people seem to have the idea that if they "accept Jesus", all is good. The question is why have you accepted him? What's in your (objectively speaking) heart and mind that's changed?

Jesus sat with the poor, the weak, the destitute and gave them food, comfort and fellowship to let them know they're worthy of love, compassion and acceptance. it's the reason why I used the word "club" because there seem to be many who just accept the phrase of being "saved" and the trinity as if it's some sorority, not changing a single, solitary thing about their way of life and continue to live in vain. Many prosperity preachers do this too and have people who are basically living paycheque to paycheque emptying out the bank accounts donating to their "church" so they can live in mansions.

Jesus was sacrificed, but in the Heavenly Father's love and grace, he rose to show us who he really is to show us everything he did was, at the very least, something us imperfect people can aspire to. From my perspective, that's accepting Jesus.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Again, people seem to have the idea that if they "accept Jesus", all is good. The question is why have you accepted him? What's in your (objectively speaking) heart and mind that's changed?

Please allow me to answer your question with a song.

 

[The Sojourner]

John 5:19-23
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

In John 5:19-23, Jesus said that truly, truly, The Son can nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do, he does likewise.

It can be seen in these verses, that Jesus did not claim to be God himself, but instead, to do as he sees (or hears) from the Father. He also tells us, that it is the Father Who raises from the dead. The Father both creates and is the giver of Eternal Life, and does it through Christ to those who follow him (and therefore follows the teachings God sent via Christ, His Prophet and Messenger).

Jesus also said here, that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father, (why? because he is God? No, but all men should honour him even as they honour the Father,) because Father sent him. So if someone does not honour the Son, that the Father had sent, then they are not honouring the Father.

Christ is therefore His Angel (His Messenger - the one He sent to deliver His Message to the people). Christ is "the Angel of The Lord" because he is the Messenger of The Lord, sent by The Lord God to conveigh His Message and Commandments to the people (Angel means Messenger). Therefore, since Christ is God's Messenger, that He sent into the world (Christ's Soul / Spirit sent into Jesus who was born of Mary), in English it is the exact same as saying that Christ is "the Angel of The Lord" (The Bible teaches that Angels are spirits, as Christ also taught about himself).

He (Christ) comes "in the Name of his Father" (i.e. The Lord - Christ called Father The Lord, of heaven and earth, for instance in the book of Mattthew) therefore is he also to be called The Lord. He comes "in the Name of The Lord" (and in His Authority).

That to me, is what it is saying. He didn't say that he is God himself, but, that he is the one that God had sent - His Son (created by The Father, Who is the Creator/Father of all creation, the Giver of all Life and the Living). God's Prophet, Messenger and His Christ. Therefore, he should be respected and honoured in the same way, because God/Father sent him. So, not honouring him in the same way and/or not accepting his Authority, would be to therefore not honour or accept the Authority of God, which God sent to us via His Angel/Messenger, Christ (The Son - honoured above his fellows - the rest of the angels).

This fits with the rest of Scripture. The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

So it's not at all the same as the believing in the doctrine of the RCC.

 

[A Freeman]

From: https://www.trinitytruth.org/the-trinity-doctrine-exposed.html

THE TRINITY DOCTRINE EXPOSED - PART 5

Most Have No Idea what the Trinity Doctrine is and why it Results in Hell Fire

The majority of professed Trinitarians have absolutely no idea what the Trinity doctrine actually is. And when some find out, they are so shocked that they go into denial and say, “That is not what I believe!”

If you do not believe the facts stated below, then you are NOT a Trinitarian! And if what you follow differs from what is explained below, then it is NOT the Trinity doctrine! It does not matter whether it be the SDA Church or any other Church. There is only ONE Trinity doctrine and it does not come in different flavours.

The Trinity doctrine says there are THREE LITERAL GODS that are equal in every way and that all THREE gods have always existed. THREE gods that are co-equal and co-eternal in other words.

But now we have a SERIOUS problem because the Bible says there is only ONE God.

SATAN via the Catholic Church says NO PROBLEM…I have just the answer to keep all deceived. We will teach that all THREE GODS are really only ONE GOD!

1 + 1 + 1 = 1 !

THREE LITERAL GODS that are not really 3 GODS but 1 GOD. Make sense? No! Why should it? It was made up by Satan via the Catholic Church so Satan could get worship and have Christians deny the Father and Son and not even know it !

Satan HATES the SON OF GOD and wants us to deny Him. Not only that, but we can only be saved by confessing that (The Messiah/Christ inside) Jesus is the Son of God. So how does the Trinity doctrine deny the Father and Son and give worship to Satan?

If they are 3 gods that have ALWAYS existed, (The Messiah/Christ inside) Jesus cannot really be a SON and therefore God cannot really be a FATHER.

And so the Bible (allegedly) now has hundreds of lies! More unmistakable Scriptures are denied than any other doctrine EVER ! And yet people just go on blindly believing that it is right. Like lambs to the slaughter as they say.

So God is not the Father of Christ and Christ is not the Son of God says the Trinity doctrine!

Every Scripture that says (The Messiah/Christ inside) Jesus is the Son of God is now (allegedly) a lie. Every Scripture that says God is the Father is now (allegedly) a lie. How many Scriptures suddenly become a(n alleged) lie?....“HUNDREDS!”

The Bible says (The Messiah/Christ inside) Jesus was God's Son before He came to Earth. The Trinity doctrine says No!
The Bible says (The Messiah/Christ inside) Jesus is the Son of God. The Trinity doctrine says No! He is just ROLE PLAYING.
The Bible says God is the Father of Christ. The Trinity doctrine says No! He is just ROLE PLAYING.

Where is there ONE Scripture that even hints they are not really a Father and Son and that they are ROLE PLAYING?

IT DOES NOT EXIST !

The Bible says the Holy Spirit is the “Spirit OF God” or the “Spirit OF the Father.” The Trinity doctrine says No! It claims it is something called “god the spirit” which has a different meaning and does NOT exist in Scripture but came from antichrist !

So instead of the Holy Spirit being the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER, it is now some third god called “god the spirit.”

And if “god the spirit” is Satan's idea and his creation…what spirit do you have in you? And what spirit do you give your adoration to? And what spirit do you worship or pray to for those who are now doing that also?

It will be SATAN !

The third person in the Trinity is actually Satan, not the real Holy Spirit !

Christians need to wake up before it is too late.

The extract below is from a mainstream SDA book. Adventist Woodrow Whidden says that expressions such as “Father,” “Son,” “Firstborn,” “Only Begotten,” “Begotten,” “the only true God” and “one God the Father” are just figurative and metaphorical. Now where is there even a hint in Scripture that this is so?

“Is it not quite apparent that the problem texts become problems only when one assumes an exclusively literalistic interpretation of such expressions as “Father,” “Son,” “Firstborn,” “Only Begotten,” “Begotten,” and so forth? Does not such literalism go against the mainly figurative or metaphorical meaning that the Bible writers use when referring to the persons of the Godhead? Can one really say that the Bible writers meant such expressions as “the only true God” and “one God the Father”…” — (Woodrow Whidden, The Trinity, p. 106, 2002)

A metaphor did not send a metaphor to save us. A Father sent us His Son to save us. (John 3:16)

 

[Karlysymon]

If Christ was equal to God as is claimed and generalised as doctrine by Christianity, then he would not have needed to pray to God to ask Him and he would not have had to submit his own will to do the Will of God his Father instead. But that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that Christ asked Father if the cup could pass from him, but not for his, but for Father's Will to be done. That means he submitted himself, completely and fully, to do God's Will instead of his own, becoming obedient unto death.

In my opinion, if people (myself included) spent more time studying the theme of Redemption, contemplating the question of sin, etc we wouldn't be baffled by all this or fall back on the meme that OM posted.

Sin, obviously began in heaven with Lucifer's rebellion, and in it's wake not only created a schism and distortion in the human family (our first parents) but also in their relationship with God. Inorder to redeem man, a subordination had to occur within the God-head...I will be his Father and He will be my Son (Heb 1:5)
Whatever agreements They had in their counsels, Christ had to come to earth, to restore man's relationship with God aswell as the human to human one. Only Christ could bridge that gap because only He, who is the exact representation of the Father's being (Heb 1:3), would be the perfect candidate/representative of the Father to the human family. And after His death and resurrection, He became the perfect advocate for the human family (Job 16:19-21, Heb 5 & 2)

Ofcourse, as a representative of the God-head, Christ isn't just going to talk about Himself all day. He came to show us the Father. Because of sin, the distorted image of God in the human mind had to be corrected through Christ's subordination. That distorted image or understanding often manifests itself today in the form of: "I like Jesus because He's sweet and nice but the God of the OT is always angry and vengeful". In response to Philip's inquiry, Christ responded; Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father? (John 14:8-11)

Therefore, Christ praying to the Father isn't evidence against the claim of His divinity. Rather it is stronger evidence for it...as the divine Being who donned human garb inorder bridge the great divide that sin had wrought.

John 5:19-23
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

In John 5:19-23, Jesus said that truly, truly, The Son can nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do, he does likewise.

It can be seen in these verses, that Jesus did not claim to be God himself, but instead, to do as he sees (or hears) from the Father. He also tells us, that it is the Father Who raises from the dead. The Father both creates and is the giver of Eternal Life, and does it through Christ to those who follow him (and therefore follows the teachings God sent via Christ, His Prophet and Messenger).

That's the perfect unity that exists within the God-head. The individual will moves in perfect unison...unlike the human marriages where spouses have secret bank accounts, secret dalliances and cite in their divorce filings "ireconcilable differences". You cannot run the vast universe without that perfect unity.
Any action of God the Father is not done without any input or consideration of the Son's. Which is why;
"Through Him all things were made , without Him was nothing made that has been made. (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17)

 

[Karlysymon]

Genesis 28:10-13
Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: ‘I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.

John 1:50-51
50 Jesus said, ‘You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig-tree. You will see greater things than that.’ He then added, ‘Very truly I tell you, you will see “heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on” the Son of Man.’

John 10:31-39
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’

‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’

Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, “I have said you are ‘gods’”? If he called them “gods”, to whom the word of God came – and Scripture cannot be set aside – what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, “I am God’s Son”? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.’ Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

[A Freeman]

In my opinion, if people (myself included) spent more time studying the theme of Redemption, contemplating the question of sin, etc we wouldn't be baffled by all this or fall back on the meme that OM posted.

Sin, obviously began in heaven with Lucifer's rebellion, and in it's wake not only created a schism and distortion in the human family (our first parents) but also in their relationship with God. Inorder to redeem man, a subordination had to occur within the God-head...I will be his Father and He will be my Son (Heb 1:5)
Whatever agreements They had in their counsels, Christ had to come to earth, to restore man's relationship with God aswell as the human to human one. Only Christ could bridge that gap because only He, who is the exact representation of the Father's being (Heb 1:3), would be the perfect candidate/representative of the Father to the human family. And after His death and resurrection, He became the perfect advocate for the human family (Job 16:19-21, Heb 5 & 2)

Ofcourse, as a representative of the God-head, Christ isn't just going to talk about Himself all day. He came to show us the Father. Because of sin, the distorted image of God in the human mind had to be corrected through Christ's subordination. That distorted image or understanding often manifests itself today in the form of: "I like Jesus because He's sweet and nice but the God of the OT is always angry and vengeful". In response to Philip's inquiry, Christ responded; Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father? (John 14:8-11)

Therefore, Christ praying to the Father isn't evidence against the claim of His divinity. Rather it is stronger evidence for it...as the divine Being who donned human garb inorder bridge the great divide that sin had wrought.


That's the perfect unity that exists within the God-head. The individual will moves in perfect unison...unlike the human marriages where spouses have secret bank accounts, secret dalliances and cite in their divorce filings "ireconcilable differences". You cannot run the vast universe without that perfect unity.
Any action of God the Father is not done without any input or consideration of the Son's. Which is why;
"Through Him all things were made , without Him was nothing made that has been made. (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17)

When has a Father not preceded the Son of that Father?

And when has a Son not proceeded from the Son's Father?

Do you believe God says what He means and means what He says or do you believe God is the author of confusion?

The trinity delusion is nothing but confusion, which its adherents claim is a mystery. If Father is really a mystery, and Christ isn't really Father's Son (as the man-made trinity doctrine falsely claims) then how could anyone be expected to get to know Father and get to know Christ, Whom Father sent?

The meme OM posted is valid, because it clearly illustrates the absurdity that "Christians" have chosen to believe instead of believing what Christ actually said and following Christ's Example.

And in doing so, "Christians" are forced to ignore HUNDREDS of verses which prove their satanic trinitarian doctrine wrong, or try to substitute explanations that are contrary to Scripture (e.g. an IMAGE is a representation of the original, and obviously not the original itself).

Christ being MADE in His Father's Express Image is akin to saying "he's a chip off the old block", which is why someone seeing Father's attributes in Christ is like seeing Father.

 

[Karlysymon]

When has a Father not preceded the Son of that Father?

And when has a Son not proceeded from the Son's Father?

Do you believe God says what He means and means what He says or do you believe God is the author of confusion?

The trinity delusion is nothing but confusion, which its adherents claim is a mystery. If Father is really a mystery, and Christ isn't really Father's Son (as the man-made trinity doctrine falsely claims) then how could anyone be expected to get to know Father and get to know Christ, Whom Father sent?

The meme OM posted is valid, because it clearly illustrates the absurdity that "Christians" have chosen to believe instead of believing what Christ actually said and following Christ's Example.

And in doing so, "Christians" are forced to ignore HUNDREDS of verses which prove their satanic trinitarian doctrine wrong, or try to substitute explanations that are contrary to Scripture (e.g. an IMAGE is a representation of the original, and obviously not the original itself).

Christ being MADE in His Father's Express Image is akin to saying "he's a chip off the old block", which is why someone seeing Father's attributes in Christ is like seeing Father.

@A Freeman

We will have to respectfully disagree. At the end of the day, the truth vindicates itself.

I just want to say that from the very beginning, i never wanted to get involved and actively participate in this thread and had made up my mind not to but Red's post sucked me in because it was thought provoking. And i've been wondering why. Yes, these discussions are circular on the board, everyone knows that but i strongly feel that this time it's different.

I feel that this is God's doing, that we have this discussion again, because of the events that are about to break upon us.
Matthew 28:22-27
‘If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, “Look, here is the Messiah!” or, “There he is!” do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you in advance.

‘So if anyone tells you, “There he is, out in the desert,” do not go out; or, “Here he is, in the inner rooms,” do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Impersonators, False christs and false prophets are coming and it is going to take one to have a right concept of who Christ is, inorder to evade the deception. If someone believes that He was just a man, then what metrics will you use to distinguish between the real human Christ and the human impersonator? If one believes that Christ is divine, iam sure Satan will try to pull something off but again, inorder to tell the difference between the real and fake, it's going to take having a proper understanding of WHO Christ REALLY is.

Spoiler: Hollywood's double meaning

#Lucifer is Coming

God Bless.

@Orwell's mentor , i will respond shortly to your query

 

[A Freeman]

@A Freeman

We will have to respectfully disagree. At the end of the day, the truth vindicates itself.

I just want to say that from the very beginning, i never wanted to get involved and actively participate in this thread and had made up my mind not to but Red's post sucked me in because it was thought provoking. And i've been wondering why. Yes, these discussions are circular on the board, everyone knows that but i strongly feel that this time it's different.

I feel that this is God's doing, that we have this discussion again, because of the events that are about to break upon us.
Matthew 28:22-27
‘If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, “Look, here is the Messiah!” or, “There he is!” do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you in advance.

‘So if anyone tells you, “There he is, out in the desert,” do not go out; or, “Here he is, in the inner rooms,” do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Impersonators, False christs and false prophets are coming and it is going to take one to have a right concept of who Christ is, inorder to evade the deception. If someone believes that He was just a man, then what metrics will you use to distinguish between the real human Christ and the human impersonator? If one believes that Christ is divine, iam sure Satan will try to pull something off but again, inorder to tell the difference between the real and fake, it's going to take having a proper understanding of WHO Christ REALLY is.

Spoiler: Hollywood's double meaning

#Lucifer is Coming
View attachment 81474

God Bless.

@Orwell's mentor , i will respond shortly to your query

Thank-you. Understood.

I agree that this all has a direct bearing on whether or not someone will recognize the REAL Christ among all of the false christs and false teachers.

It perhaps has escaped the attention of most that there would be no reason for Satan to send all of the false christs and false teachers except to try to hide the REAL Christ Who, as He told His Disciples, would be here NOW.

The key to recognizing the REAL Christ is to search the Scriptures, exactly as Christ said. If people were doing what it Commands us to do in The Law, they would have no difficulty recognizing the REAL Christ, Who fulfills all of the Scriptural prophecies concerning His Second Coming.

But that is the path that very few find, again exactly as Christ said.

May Father Bless you too.

 

[Axl888]

Can a whole man live or function without a head, or without a torso?

For man, of course not, but with God, nothing is impossible...do you not believe the Word of God?

John 1:1-5 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

That's fine, but what does that have to do with God? Can God be divided into parts (whether equal or unequal -- Matt. 12:25)? If so, how much power would each part have? Would any part of our ALL-POWERFUL GOD have less than all-power, or no power at all?

None of us could ever comprehend the power of the Godhead. But I suspect that if the power of one person of the Godhead is between 0.01 to 0.99, the power of any of His creations (including man, angels, etc.) is perhaps any number you could think of to the 'negative infinity' in comparison.

 

[Karlysymon]

Given your insightful response, I thought I'd pass a notion by you and apologies in advance @A Freeman for derailing the thread:

Considering Pastor Chuck Baldwin has stated that 98% of the American churches are Protestant and the trinity is a protestant teaching, which in essence, is Babylonian, would you say that's one of the reasons that America is basically on its' way out of being the world's "superpower" and either Russia and China will be next in line?

Clearly, I'm making a sweeping generalization and being overly simplistic, but considering Babylon has falling before, would you at least say or even concede, that's one of the reasons for America's inevitable fall? I mean, @DesertRose did make this thread here and the impacts are evidently staggering.

Thanks for asking. My opinion is that it doesn't really have anything to do with America's protestant roots but more with the natural course of things. Yes, the country has been truly used and abused for the express purpose of advancing NWO agendas and in the words of (journalist) Caitlin Johnstone, "as the heart/home of the empire it is the most propagandized on the planet". Despite all the abuse, America has managed to survive or "live" long enough to the standard age of empires...250yrs (circa).

While one could argue that the higher echelons of power are pushing Russia and China to take America's place and that somehow America's "fall" is totally engineered, for fairness or objectivity, we have to consider that history is cyclical in nature. These ancient empires of the East would have to rise again at some point and America can't remain "great" forever.

Every imperial decline is attended with loss aversion (if i can put it that way). Englishism was a term coined to describe how the British coped with the decline of the empire. It seems that TPTB realize that America's protestant roots are it's Achilles' heel and it looks like there is a segment of the American population that will be played up. Like "take the vaxx and normal will return", (false) promises might be made that if America returns to it's protestant roots, the empire can be saved but only those in denial, who don't want to acknowledge natural cycles will fall for that.

Not sure if you looked beyond the trinity link you posted, there is this for your consideration in regard to protestantism and America's fall

Spoiler: National ruin follows National apostasy

When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel and accepting heathen rites and customs, she lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people, she sought the support of the secular power. The result was the papacy, a church that controlled the power of the state and employed it to further her own ends, especially for the punishment of “heresy.” In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends.

Whenever the church has obtained secular power, she has employed it to punish dissent from her doctrines. Protestant churches that have followed in the steps of Rome by forming alliance with worldly powers have manifested a similar desire to restrict liberty of conscience

When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result.

The wide diversity of belief in the Protestant churches is regarded by many as decisive proof that no effort to secure a forced uniformity can ever be made. But there has been for years, in churches of the Protestant faith, a strong and growing sentiment in favor of a union based upon common points of doctrine. To secure such a union, the discussion of subjects upon which all were not agreed—however important they might be from a Bible standpoint—must necessarily be waived. Links 1, 2, 3

The people of the United States have been a favored people; but when they restrict religious liberty, surrender Protestantism, and give countenance to popery, the measure of their guilt will be full, and “national apostasy” will be registered in the books of heaven. The result of this apostasy will be national ruin. Link

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Karly. It's refreshing.

Thanks!

We meet on the sea of glass in the celestial courts!