Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

A Freeman

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Here is a simple explanation for you:

head of a man + torso of the same man + limbs of the same man = 1 whole man
Can a whole man live or function without a head, or without a torso?

And how does any of this explain the "trinity"? The satanic, man-made trinity doctrine falsely claims there 3 individuals but not 3 individuals, and yet one individual but not one individual, according to the Roman Catholic invention known as the trinity doctrine, where each part is allegedly God, but not God.

1663823426454.png
Is God really the author of this confusion? Of course not!

Have you not read the mind-numbing, double-speak known as the Athansian creed, which is where the trinity doctrine that Christians blasphemously worship instead of God originated? Three but not three, one but not one, etc.?

[Spoiler - Athanasian Creed]
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
[/Spoiler]

soul + body + spirit = 1 living man
A human+Being is a flesh-and-blood human (man) + a spiritual-Being (soul) that should be led by the Spirit (Father's Holy Spirit)
When the soul and Father's Spirit are divided, that soul is no longer at one with Father, like Christ is at one with Father.

John 17:14
17:14 I have given them Thy Word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil (one - Lucifer) [in the world].
17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through Thy Truth: Thy Word is Truth.
17:18 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are One:
17:23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.
17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my Glory, which Thou hast given me: for Thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world.
17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I know Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent me.

The Truth from God is THERE IS NO TRINITY. Father is ONE God (Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29). And the only Way we can draw closer to and become ONE with God, as Christ is One with Him, is to follow Christ's Example in ALL things.

Father + Son + Holy Spirit = Godhead
If this were true, it would be written in Scripture, wouldn't it? But this isn't found ANYWHERE in Scripture, is it? Instead we find this:

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

And we are told repeatedly throughout Scripture not only that Father is God, but that Father is Christ's God, just as Father is our God.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.

These are not my words, they are Christ's words, which Christ delivered from the cross as well (Matt. 27:46). How could anyone profess to love Christ and not believe the Truth that Christ has delivered from God? How could Christ make it any clearer that he (Christ) also has a God, and that His God is our God: Father.

God cannot have a God, or the former wouldn't be God, by definition. God is THE MOST HIGH, i.e. there are NONE higher. And God is ALL-POWERFUL, ALL THE TIME (Matt. 19:26).

0.4 + 0.3 + 0.3 = 1
0.5 + 0.3 + 0.2 = 1
...so on and so forth
That's fine, but what does that have to do with God? Can God be divided into parts (whether equal or unequal -- Matt. 12:25)? If so, how much power would each part have? Would any part of our ALL-POWERFUL GOD have less than all-power, or no power at all?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the Will of the Father which hath sent me.

And the pseudo-mathematics involved in the man-made, satanic doctrine known as the "trinity" is actually the following nonsense according to the Athanasian creed, which defines the trinity as the core religious dogma of the Roman Catholic church:

1+1+1=1
1=3, but 1≠3
3=1, but 3≠1

The Romans carried out the crucifixion of Jesus. Why would anyone believe the descendants of those who MURDERED Jesus rather than the words of Christ-Jesus Himself, particularly when the former so obviously contradicts the latter?
 

A Freeman

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One of the reasons why Lucifer/Satan/Iblis created the "trinity" (and its variant, the "oneness" doctrine) delusion and how we can be absolutely certain that the trinity, in all of its forms/variants, was his (Satan's) creation:

The "trinity" creates the ILLUSION (LIE) in people's minds that Jesus is or was God, despite the total lack of any supporting Scriptural evidence.

By deceiving people into believing that Jesus is or was God with the trinity delusion, Satan can then get people to believe the LIE that "only God can keep The Law", even though Jesus COMMANDED us to "be perfect as our Father in heaven IS perfect" (Matt. 5:48).

Jesus plainly stated that He did NOT come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets (all of whom spoke God's Word/Truth that we MUST return to The Law), that heaven and earth would pass away before The Law that God gave us passed away, and that anyone who taught others differently, e.g. that "it's okay to break The Law because Jesus paid the price to give us the freedom to sin with impunity", would be considered the lowest of the low in God's Eyes (Matt. 5:17-19).

Only a complete fool, who doesn't know Father (The One True God) or His Christ (whom Father sent to teach us Father's Word/Truth) would believe that God is supposedly so stupid or vindictive that He gave us a Law that allegedly no one can keep. We not only can but MUST learn to keep Father's Law, exactly as Christ did in the body of Jesus, and still does today, or we will go into The Fire on Judgment Day, exactly as we've been warned for thousands of years. It is by The Law that Christ will judge each and every one of us (Deut. 30:15-20, Matt. 16:27, John 5:22, Rev. 20:12-15).

There is no such thing as a "born again Christian", because the instant someone is truly born again as there true, spiritual self, they will strive with every ounce of spiritual strength, faith and love to obey Father and His Law, if for no other reason than to show both Father and His Christ gratitude for the sacrifices that have been made to bring us to our senses and return us to the fold. And part of that gratitude is to completely disassociate ourselves with any other gods or forms of idolatry, which ALL organized religion -- including "Christianity" -- is. How could anyone possibly believe they can continue to break the First and Most Important COMMANDment, and that God will continue indefinitely to postpone the punishment for doing so?

Anyone who wants to survive Judgment Day MUST immediately do an about face, truly repent, i.e. STOP SINNING and NEVER look back. Sinning is breaking Father's Law (1 John 3:4) and, contrary to the popular and satanic "Christian" belief, WE WILL NOT BE REWARDED FOR BEING CRIMINALS.

Mistakenly
believing that you cannot keep The National, Moral Law that Father gave us, found in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, is a mock (false) humility. "Be NOT deceived; God is NOT mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he also reap" (Gal. 6:7).

TRUE humility is recognizing that we have been WRONG about everything, and need to obey Father and His Law ONLY in all things and at all times. There's no other way to do God's Will here on Earth, as exemplified by Christ-Jesus. WITH God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26).

Hopefully those of you who are truly awake will see the truth being shared and recognize that this is NOT some petty argument over doctrinal differences, but instead is a final warning from Father being lovingly delivered at this late-hour for everyone's benefit.

Peace be upon you.
 
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Karlysymon

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What's interesting is I am, and it's currently what my job entails as we counsel people who've fallen on hard times. :)Jesus is not be worshipped, it's really that simple. He was sent to show us the way, as @Todd has often said. We revere Jesus because he's the Messiah, as it's explained, but his message was to worship the Heavenly Father and understand the "Imago Dei".

But as I've said, if those want to worship him, go right ahead, it's not about him, it's about the message he wanted to spread to the world.

EDIT: I'll add this because this is what the trinity is implying. It's an oldie but still a goodie:

Given your post, you are excited about going to heaven....as am i! So here are more texts on the visions of the future;

Revelation 21:22-27
"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendour into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honour of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22:1-5 (compare with Ezekiel 47:1-2, 12)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city
. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever"

Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’
All the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshipped God,
saying:

‘Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honour
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!’​
Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes – who are they, and where did they come from?’ I answered, ‘Sir, you know.’
And he said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,

‘they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
“Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,”
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the centre of the throne
will be their shepherd;
“he will lead them to springs of living water.”
“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father(Acts 2:32-33, Matthew 26:64). Christ is at the centre of the throne^^ and all the angelic host fall down in adoration. If you still think that the angels do that only out of reverance and not worship, inspite of the Scriptural text's descriptions, then your belief is your own to espouse.

I will add that in those verses in Matthew, Christ at His trial, was charged by Caiaphas the high priest with blasphemy and thus worthy of death simply because He acknowledged that He was the Son of God who would be seen in the future sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One.
 

Karlysymon

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For debate's sake, let's say there is legitimacy to the trinity. Okay so now what? What or how should Christians that believe this do or treat their fellow man when there's so much pain and suffering in the world? What exactly is being accomplished in the belief of the trinity that isn't being done by others that don't? If you're making communities stronger and able to build people up, rather than bringing them down, standing up to injustices that have been inflicted by today's "rulers" then I say, kudos to you (objectively speaking). However, this topic has done nothing but emphasize the fact that there's a sect of people that want to believe something so desperately, they're ultimately willing to do some mental gymnastics into ascribing to something that has proven to have pagan origins.
You see, the argument doesn't end there. The Muslims say: you don't need substitutionary punishment/the Cross to access God or to be a good person. Then the agnostics & atheists also chime in: you don't need to believe in a God inorder to be a good person and do good works in the community.

The meme you posted is a favorite for the muslims who have posted it ad nauseaum on these boards :) . Since you asked what bearing the trinity has on some being "good"...well, this requires treading into the grand theme of Redemption. Christ as divine being who died on the cross in a human body bears witness of the deep, personal cost that God had to bear in order to redeem man but also to provide an antidote to sin, both in this age and the age to come. When someone contemplates the depths to which God stooped inorder to uplift man from the depths he had fallen, you cannot help but be revolted by sin. Many good people sacrifice themselves for noble causes but their acts never and cannot wield the same power over the soul that the Cross does. Which is why Christ said: But I, when Iam lifted up from the earth will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32) But again, someone somewhere will argue that they can be "good" without the Cross or looking to it (John 3:14). For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross .Colossians 1:19-20

I thought this quote was relevant to my post:

"Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ’s agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God-subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death-it is said that “His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.” “In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.” Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9.

The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross. When men urge that God is too good to cast off the sinner, let them look to Calvary. It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings—impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life—it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient, and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin, and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ

the heart of the infinite Father is pained in sympathy, Our world is a vast lazar house, a scene of misery that we dare not allow even our thoughts to dwell upon. Did we realize it as it is, the burden would be too terrible. Yet God feels it all. In order to destroy sin and its results He gave His best Beloved, and He has put it in our power, through cooperation with Him, to bring this scene of misery to an end. “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14"


Personally, there is no gain in espousing a belief that the biblical text doesn't support. I was raised on dispensationalism....belief in the rapture et al, but i abandoned all that before i turned 20 when i studied my bible (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to discover that it isn't biblically supported. If Christ's divine nature had no basis in Scripture, what reason would i have to cling to it inspite of the lack of scriptural evidence? The evidence exists, so i have legitimate grounds on which to rest by belief.
 
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You see, the argument doesn't end there. The Muslims say: you don't need substitutionary punishment/the Cross to access God or to be a good person. Then the agnostics & atheists also chime in: you don't need to believe in a God inorder to be a good person and do good works in the community.

The meme you posted is a favorite for the muslims who have posted it ad nauseaum on these boards :) . Since you asked what bearing the trinity has on some being "good"...well, this requires treading into the grand theme of Redemption. Christ as divine being who died on the cross in a human body bears witness of the deep, personal cost that God had to bear in order to redeem man but also to provide an antidote to sin, both in this age and the age to come. When someone contemplates the depths to which God stooped inorder to uplift man from the depths he had fallen, you cannot help but be revolted by sin. Many good people sacrifice themselves for noble causes but their acts never and cannot wield the same power over the soul that the Cross does. Which is why Christ said: But I, when Iam lifted up from the earth will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32) But again, someone somewhere will argue that they can be "good" without the Cross or looking to it (John 3:14). For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross .Colossians 1:19-20

I thought this quote was relevant to my post:

"Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ’s agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God-subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death-it is said that “His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.” “In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.” Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9.

The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross. When men urge that God is too good to cast off the sinner, let them look to Calvary. It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings—impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life—it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient, and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin, and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ

the heart of the infinite Father is pained in sympathy, Our world is a vast lazar house, a scene of misery that we dare not allow even our thoughts to dwell upon. Did we realize it as it is, the burden would be too terrible. Yet God feels it all. In order to destroy sin and its results He gave His best Beloved, and He has put it in our power, through cooperation with Him, to bring this scene of misery to an end. “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14"


Personally, there is no gain in espousing a belief that the biblical text doesn't support. I was raised on dispensationalism....belief in the rapture et al, but i abandoned all that before i turned 20 when i studied my bible (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to discover that it isn't biblically supported. If Christ's divine nature had no basis in Scripture, what reason would i have to cling to it inspite of the lack of scriptural evidence? The evidence exists, so i have legitimate grounds on which to rest by belief.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, Karly. It's refreshing. :)

I don't have too much time to write right now, but I agree with you he's divine because he's the Messiah as this is what the video with Lee Strobel I posted earlier was espousing. As I've stated, he's to be revered, not worshiped, it's really that simple. It's what my parents and grandparents taught me, thankfully. Frankly, I'm too old to think otherwise. As is stated in John 14:2 (King James Bible) so take it from Jesus himself:

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you"

I think people take things too literally and get lost in the meaning/interpretations/esoteric symbolism of things. It's why spirituality and the understanding the soul are important, as people have a tendency to focus too much of things at face value and not understand that our meaning to life and what we bring to it does have nuances. The Heavenly Father is great that way! :cool:;)
 
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Given your post, you are excited about going to heaven....as am i! So here are more texts on the visions of the future;

Revelation 21:22-27
"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendour into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honour of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22:1-5 (compare with Ezekiel 47:1-2, 12)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city
. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever"

Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’
All the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshipped God,
saying:

‘Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honour
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!’​
Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes – who are they, and where did they come from?’ I answered, ‘Sir, you know.’
And he said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,

‘they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
“Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,”
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the centre of the throne
will be their shepherd;
“he will lead them to springs of living water.”
“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father(Acts 2:32-33, Matthew 26:64). Christ is at the centre of the throne^^ and all the angelic host fall down in adoration. If you still think that the angels do that only out of reverance and not worship, inspite of the Scriptural text's descriptions, then your belief is your own to espouse.

I will add that in those verses in Matthew, Christ at His trial, was charged by Caiaphas the high priest with blasphemy and thus worthy of death simply because He acknowledged that He was the Son of God who would be seen in the future sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One.
Given your insightful response, I thought I'd pass a notion by you and apologies in advance @A Freeman for derailing the thread:

Considering Pastor Chuck Baldwin has stated that 98% of the American churches are Protestant and the trinity is a protestant teaching, which in essence, is Babylonian, would you say that's one of the reasons that America is basically on its' way out of being the world's "superpower" and either Russia and China will be next in line?

Clearly, I'm making a sweeping generalization and being overly simplistic, but considering Babylon has falling before, would you at least say or even concede, that's one of the reasons for America's inevitable fall? I mean, @DesertRose did make this thread here and the impacts are evidently staggering.
 
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It's what my parents and grandparents taught me
Really? I’m suprised. That view hasn’t been held by any Christians except I think the Jehovah’s Witness since it was refuted in the third century. I think it’s because people used to read the bible, and it clearly teaches the divinity of Christ. So those views have never been held by people. Its only when you read a cut up mish mash like freeman gives that you could believe it says something different. so your grandparents really thought that Christ was not divine?

its funny looking through st.athanasius and seeing him refuting the same arguments freeman asserts in the third century
 
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Example, read the first chapter of Hebrews and it directly contradicts some of Freeman’s most asserted statements. It says directly
-Christ is not an angel
-Christ is not a prophet
-Christ is the Son of God
-through him, God created the world of time
-he is the full expression of God’s Being
-all creation depends on him for support
-God tells all the angels to worship him
-when all of creation perishes, he will remain
-he never changes and will never end

In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means,[1] through the prophets; now at last 2 in these times he has spoken to us with a Son to speak for him; a Son, whom he has appointed to inherit all things, just as it was through him that he created this world of time; 3 a Son, who is the radiance of his Father’s splendour, and the full expression of his being;[2] all creation depends, for its support, on his enabling word. Now, making atonement for our sins, he has taken his place on high, at the right hand of God’s majesty, 4 superior to the angels in that measure in which the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.[3] 5 Did God ever say to one of the angels, Thou art my Son, I have begotten thee this day? And again, He shall find in me a Father, and I in him a Son?[4] 6 Why, when the time comes for bringing his first-born into the world anew, then, he says, Let all the angels of God worship before him.[5] 7 What does he say of the angels? He will have his angels be like the winds, the servants that wait on him like a flame of fire.[6] 8 And what of the Son? Thy throne, O God, stands firm for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingship is a rod that rules true. 9 Thou hast been a friend to right, an enemy to wrong; and God, thy own God, has given thee an unction to bring thee pride, as none else of thy fellows.[7] 10 And elsewhere: Lord, thou hast laid the foundations of the earth at its beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 11 They will perish, but thou wilt remain; they will all be like a cloak that grows threadbare, 12 and thou wilt lay them aside, like a garment, and exchange them for new; but thou art he who never changes, thy years will not come to an end.[8] 13 Did he ever say to one of the angels, Sit on my right hand, while I make thy enemies a footstool under thy feet?[9] 14 What are they, all of them, but spirits apt for service, whom he sends out when the destined heirs of eternal salvation have need of them?

Very beautiful, no? thats why christians have been schismatic over all types of things, but this was never really a common debate. Anyone who’s read the bible it’s clear, it’s only freemans cut and paste projects that can make it seem like it doesn’t say these things.
 
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Really? I’m suprised. That view hasn’t been held by any Christians except I think the Jehovah’s Witness since it was refuted in the third century. I think it’s because people used to read the bible, and it clearly teaches the divinity of Christ. So those views have never been held by people. Its only when you read a cut up mish mash like freeman gives that you could believe it says something different. so your grandparents really thought that Christ was not divine?

its funny looking through st.athanasius and seeing him refuting the same arguments freeman asserts in the third century
I'm in agreement that Freeman is not for the trinity, which I'm in complete agreement with . If he's advocating that Jesus is not divine, that's something that we'd have to respectfully disagree on. I actually asked my dad the trinity question before this thread was created and reassuringly, he told me it's a Catholic belief which was nice to hear since my mum's no longer there to keep him in check. I honestly don't have the time to read the article you've posted but maybe on the weekend, I might give you a more comprehensive response.
Example, read the first chapter of Hebrews and it directly contradicts some of Freeman’s most asserted statements. It says directly
-Christ is not an angel
-Christ is not a prophet
-Christ is the Son of God
-through him, God created the world of time
-he is the full expression of God’s Being
-all creation depends on him for support
-God tells all the angels to worship him
-when all of creation perishes, he will remain
-he never changes and will never end

In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means,[1] through the prophets; now at last 2 in these times he has spoken to us with a Son to speak for him; a Son, whom he has appointed to inherit all things, just as it was through him that he created this world of time; 3 a Son, who is the radiance of his Father’s splendour, and the full expression of his being;[2] all creation depends, for its support, on his enabling word. Now, making atonement for our sins, he has taken his place on high, at the right hand of God’s majesty, 4 superior to the angels in that measure in which the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.[3] 5 Did God ever say to one of the angels, Thou art my Son, I have begotten thee this day? And again, He shall find in me a Father, and I in him a Son?[4] 6 Why, when the time comes for bringing his first-born into the world anew, then, he says, Let all the angels of God worship before him.[5] 7 What does he say of the angels? He will have his angels be like the winds, the servants that wait on him like a flame of fire.[6] 8 And what of the Son? Thy throne, O God, stands firm for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingship is a rod that rules true. 9 Thou hast been a friend to right, an enemy to wrong; and God, thy own God, has given thee an unction to bring thee pride, as none else of thy fellows.[7] 10 And elsewhere: Lord, thou hast laid the foundations of the earth at its beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 11 They will perish, but thou wilt remain; they will all be like a cloak that grows threadbare, 12 and thou wilt lay them aside, like a garment, and exchange them for new; but thou art he who never changes, thy years will not come to an end.[8] 13 Did he ever say to one of the angels, Sit on my right hand, while I make thy enemies a footstool under thy feet?[9] 14 What are they, all of them, but spirits apt for service, whom he sends out when the destined heirs of eternal salvation have need of them?

Very beautiful, no? thats why christians have been schismatic over all types of things, but this was never really a common debate. Anyone who’s read the bible it’s clear, it’s only freemans cut and paste projects that can make it seem like it doesn’t say these things.
Some of that I agree with, but only metaphorically. Again, I wish I had the time to expound on the subject, but maybe later. All in all, Jesus was not just a man, if that helps.
 

A Freeman

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God is the Guardian Of Divinity, the King Ruler of the Universe, and the self-existing ONE. Father (God) IS THE MOST HIGH.

ALL
of the Sons of God (Father) are DIVINE, i.e. from God, Who CREATED Them.

Father's Firstborn/First-created Son is the GREAT PRINCE MICHAEL, known here on Earth as The Messiah/Christ (The One Whom God Anointed).

AFTER Father created Prince Michael/Christ, Father created everyone and everything else WITH and THROUGH Prince Michael/Christ, exactly as it says in the Scripture of Truth (John 1:3, Heb. 1:2). And, in doing so, Father taught Prince Michael/Christ EVERYTHING; again, exactly as it says in the Scripture of Truth (John 5:19-20).

This is why Prince Michael/Christ is HEIR to everything of Father's BY INHERITANCE; again exactly as it says in the Scripture of Truth. The firstborn son of The King is The Prince, the latter of which is heir to the throne and thus the entire kingdom.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God (Father), Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He (Father) hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (Father) made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express IMAGE of His (Father's) person, and upholding all things by The Word of His (Father's) power, when he (Prince Michael/Christ) had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His (Father's) Majesty on high;
1:4 Being MADE so much better than the angels, as he hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they.

How obvious does it need to be written for people to "see"?

The passage literally says that Christ was MADE (i.e. CREATED).

The passage literally says that Christ IS NOT God, but rather the express IMAGE (likeness) of God. An image of something is NOT the original, by definition. It's understood that a cat might be fooled into believing it's another cat when they see their image in a mirror, but human+Beings ought to know that the image is only a likeness of the human.

The passage literally says that Father (God) APPOINTED Christ to be heir of all things and that made the worlds THROUGH Christ.

The passage literally says that Christ obtained His Name BY INHERITANCE, i.e. He was THE FIRSTBORN AMONG THE ANGELS (Col. 1:12-15). There would be no reason to compare Christ to the angels if Christ wasn't an angel Himself. And one does not become an heir, nor inherit that which already belongs to them, again proving the Christ cannot be God or He could not be the heir chosen by God.

The passage literally says that Christ sat down on the right hand of His (Father's) Majesty on high. How would The Most High God sit down at His own right-hand?

This should also explain why Prince Michael/Christ COMMANDS the heavenly host (God's Army); again, exactly as it says in the Scripture of Truth.

Prince Michael/Christ, the immortal spiritual-Being/Son of God incarnated the human/Son of Man known as Jesus. Jesus is not only a name, but also a title which means "Saviour" or, more specifically, "YHWH Saves", because it's Father, THROUGH His Christ that is doing the saving.

Jesus was the miracle, human son of the virgin Mary. The virgin birth was to ensure Jesus would stand out from ALL others so the world would take notice of Him, HEAR HIM, FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE AND DO WHAT HE SAID.

We literally changed the way we keep time on this planet because of Christ coming in the body of Jesus.

Does this somehow make Christ, or Jesus (the Son of Man whom Christ incarnated) God? Not according to the Scripture of Truth. It makes Christ the One Whom God (Father) SENT; again, exactly as it says in the Scripture of Truth.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is NOT greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than He that sent him.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast SENT.

Believe the Scripture of Truth NOT the traditions and doctrines of men, which make the Commandments of God of no effect..
 
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“I Am the Truth” Jesus

here freeman let me do it for you
Prince Michael/Christ BECAME the truth after he was CREATED.

“I am the Light” Jesus
ALL the angels are a light INCLUDING Michael/Christ. He meant I am A light because only THE FATHER is the light and it would he ABSURD for Jesus to mean he is THE LIGHT.
 

The Sojourner

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Ok, i haven't seen this mentioned.

Luke 8:39



So either God=Jesus, or the man gave the credit wrongly to Jesus instead of God. And Luke didn't think to make a note of it or correct it while telling the story. Seems unlikely.

The matching passage in Mark 5 says "Lord". So Jesus=Lord and God=Lord. What conclusion follows?
Jesus gave the credit for what was done unto God (note that throughout the Gospels, Christ always did this - gave the credit to God His/The Father) and then told the man to go and tell what great things God had done for him.

People never do as they are told!

Instead the man ran and told of what great things Jesus had done for him. So, technically the man did not obey Jesus in what Jesus had told him to go and do.

If the man had obeyed Jesus and had done exactly what he was told to do, this discussion would likely not be taking place.

Christ always gave the glory and credit to God and not to himself. The problem is therefore not with Christ, or with what He said or did, but with people, who don't do as they are told!

Christ Jesus, when asked about prayer, told us to pray to The Father, as Christ Himself also did.

He never told anyone to pray to him, but said to pray to The Father.

Therefore, to be a follower or disciple of Christ, one would have to follow and obey Christ and do as Christ instructs. But people don't do it!

Christ prayed to God and it is recorded on several occasions. He called Father both "my God" and "The Lord of heaven and earth".

So it is God who healed the man (and others) through Jesus.

In Paul's letters, it is consistently the same. In Pauls view, God is clearly above Christ - God is the head of Christ. Christ said the same.
 

The Sojourner

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Usually the person calling out and saying why do you lie is the one that is the liar....(just saying) nice tact you used on lightseeker... but any way.

Who's the one that gives eternal life?
God (I.e. The Father). Remember, Christ said that he can do nothing of himself, but he can give, of what The Father (God) has given unto to him.
 

The Sojourner

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They are at one with each other. Two individuals (Father and Son) of ONE MIND (like-minded). It obviously doesn't mean they are the same individual, because Father couldn't be greater than all others if they were one individual, could He?

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in YOU.

When Father's Will is being done Father and Christ and all the rest of the angels of heaven (other sons of God) are in you and with you and we are AT ONE.

If you need further proof that you are misunderstanding John 10:30, then please consider the following verses, all from the same Gospel account:

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Why would Father need to show Christ anything if Christ is allegedly the third part of The All-Knowing (Omniscient) God?


John 5:26 For as the Father hath Life in Himself; so hath He GIVEN to the Son to have Life in himself;

Why would Christ need Father to GIVE Christ Life (i.e. create Christ), if Christ is allegedly a third part of The Uncreated God?


John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the Will of the Father which hath sent me.

How could Christ allegedly be the third part of The All-Powerful (Omnipotent) God and yet not able to do anything on his own?

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

If Father and Christ are allegedly one individual, how could Christ utter these words in the presence of people who were looking directly at Christ-Jesus as Christ spoke these words through the mouth of Jesus?

Anyone who ignores and refuses to believe Christ's own words, ALL of them -- NONE of which contradict themselves -- cannot possibly belong to Christ.

John 5:42-47
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
"I and the Father are one" John 10
He couldn't have said it any clearer
Does one mean the same as equal?

In the Gospel of John, Christ prayed to Father, asking that the disciples may also be one, even as he and Father are one.

It seems clear that Christ wanted for them to be united by saying this.
 
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The Sojourner

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Example, read the first chapter of Hebrews and it directly contradicts some of Freeman’s most asserted statements. It says directly
-Christ is not an angel
-Christ is not a prophet
-Christ is the Son of God
-through him, God created the world of time
-he is the full expression of God’s Being
-all creation depends on him for support
-God tells all the angels to worship him
-when all of creation perishes, he will remain
-he never changes and will never end

In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means,[1] through the prophets; now at last 2 in these times he has spoken to us with a Son to speak for him; a Son, whom he has appointed to inherit all things, just as it was through him that he created this world of time; 3 a Son, who is the radiance of his Father’s splendour, and the full expression of his being;[2] all creation depends, for its support, on his enabling word. Now, making atonement for our sins, he has taken his place on high, at the right hand of God’s majesty, 4 superior to the angels in that measure in which the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.[3] 5 Did God ever say to one of the angels, Thou art my Son, I have begotten thee this day? And again, He shall find in me a Father, and I in him a Son?[4] 6 Why, when the time comes for bringing his first-born into the world anew, then, he says, Let all the angels of God worship before him.[5] 7 What does he say of the angels? He will have his angels be like the winds, the servants that wait on him like a flame of fire.[6] 8 And what of the Son? Thy throne, O God, stands firm for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingship is a rod that rules true. 9 Thou hast been a friend to right, an enemy to wrong; and God, thy own God, has given thee an unction to bring thee pride, as none else of thy fellows.[7] 10 And elsewhere: Lord, thou hast laid the foundations of the earth at its beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 11 They will perish, but thou wilt remain; they will all be like a cloak that grows threadbare, 12 and thou wilt lay them aside, like a garment, and exchange them for new; but thou art he who never changes, thy years will not come to an end.[8] 13 Did he ever say to one of the angels, Sit on my right hand, while I make thy enemies a footstool under thy feet?[9] 14 What are they, all of them, but spirits apt for service, whom he sends out when the destined heirs of eternal salvation have need of them?

Very beautiful, no? thats why christians have been schismatic over all types of things, but this was never really a common debate. Anyone who’s read the bible it’s clear, it’s only freemans cut and paste projects that can make it seem like it doesn’t say these things.
Doesn't it also say though that Christ was exalted above his fellows? If Christ's fellows are the angels, then isn't Christ also therefore an Angel (Angel - Messenger)?
 
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Does one mean the same as equal?

In the Gospel of John, Christ prayed to Father, asking that the disciples may also be one, even as he and Father are one.

It seems clear that Christ wanted for them to be united by saying this.
Definition of one
(Entry 1 of 4)
1: being a single unit or thing

Christs words on quite clear, following the passage you referenced:
23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Christ prays to be in all his disciples so that he can unite them to the Father. If Christ was not a divine element, he would leave himself out of the equation, as you actually wrongly implied the quote says, but you left out the description of this process. Christ describes the reality of his relationship to mankind - God is in him, and he is in his disciples, meaning God is in them as well. So Christ plays an integral role in the divine process of unification, not just that he is an example of a good person. He describes a divine role he plays. So it is a more nuanced ontological process that you ignore, of which Christ plays an integral and divine role, being in the disciples in order to unify them with God, not simply that they do what you said, leaving Christ out of the equation.
If Christ was simply a very righteous person or messenger, he would not say that he existed with God before creation as well.
Doesn't it also say though that Christ was exalted above his fellows? If Christ's fellows are the angels, then isn't Christ also therefore an Angel (Angel - Messenger)?
Read Hebrews 1 again, because its a comprehensive refutation of that inference.
it says
-All of creation is like a garment the Christ wears. He will lay it aside and remain unchanged. Does this sound like an angel?
-all the angels worship him. Does this sound like an angel?
-it actually says Christ’s relationship to the angels “-What are they, all of them, but spirits apt for service, whom he sends out when the destined heirs of eternal salvation have need of them?”
Paul wrote that entire passage to refute your claim that Christ is an angel, so go there for your answer. Just because the angels are his “fellows” that doesn’t mean he is the same as them. He says his disciples are his friends too, does this mean his disciples were all angels?
 

The Sojourner

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Given your post, you are excited about going to heaven....as am i! So here are more texts on the visions of the future;

Revelation 21:22-27
"I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendour into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honour of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22:1-5 (compare with Ezekiel 47:1-2, 12)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city
. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever"

Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’
All the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshipped God,
saying:

‘Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honour
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!’​
Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes – who are they, and where did they come from?’ I answered, ‘Sir, you know.’
And he said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,

‘they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
“Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,”
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the centre of the throne
will be their shepherd;
“he will lead them to springs of living water.”
“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father(Acts 2:32-33, Matthew 26:64). Christ is at the centre of the throne^^ and all the angelic host fall down in adoration. If you still think that the angels do that only out of reverance and not worship, inspite of the Scriptural text's descriptions, then your belief is your own to espouse.

I will add that in those verses in Matthew, Christ at His trial, was charged by Caiaphas the high priest with blasphemy and thus worthy of death simply because He acknowledged that He was the Son of God who would be seen in the future sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One.
I find it interesting that it says The Lamb is the lamp of the Glory of God's Light.
I see that as God's Light, shining through His lamp, i.e. The Lamb.

A lamp or light bulb, emanates Light, but the energy of the light is an unseen force (like electricity) which is invisible. The light comes from the unseen Force and the lamp (or bulb) displays and gives off the light, so that people can see it.

I find this interesting because the Bible (and also the Quran for interest) says that God is Invisible. He is the "Energy" or "Force" that is Omnipresent that powers and generates the Light. The lamp displays it, so that we are able to see it.

Christ said He is the light (or the lamp, in revelation) of the world.
 
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I find it interesting that it says The Lamb is the lamp of the Glory of God's Light.
I see that as God's Light, shining through His lamp, i.e. The Lamb.

A lamp or light bulb, emanates Light, but the energy of the light is an unseen force (like electricity) which is invisible. The light comes from the unseen Force and the lamp (or bulb) displays and gives off the light, so that people can see it.

I find this interesting because the Bible (and also the Quran for interest) says that God is Invisible. He is the "Energy" or "Force" that is Omnipresent that powers and generates the Light. The lamp displays it, so that we are able to see it.

Christ said He is the light (or the lamp, in revelation) of the world.
So Christ says I am the light. Why do you think he didn’t say “Gods light shines through me”?

The rest of your explanation is actually in perfect concordance with the trinity however, I had to double check to make sure you didnt think you were arguing for that. If God is an invisible force, and Christ is essentially that force made visible as light, that would align with Christs statement that “I and the Father are one” and “whoever has seen me has seen the father”. That gives Christ a status as a part of the Godhead, not simply a good person, prophet, angel, or whatever else, if he is literally the invisible God made visible, as your analogy illustrates.
 

A Freeman

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John 17:21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
 

The Sojourner

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So Christ says I am the light. Why do you think he didn’t say “Gods light shines through me”?

The rest of your explanation is actually in perfect concordance with the trinity however, I had to double check to make sure you didnt think you were arguing for that. If God is an invisible force, and Christ is essentially that force made visible as light, that would align with Christs statement that “I and the Father are one” and “whoever has seen me has seen the father”. That gives Christ a status as a part of the Godhead, not simply a good person, prophet, angel, or whatever else, if he is literally the invisible God made visible, as your analogy illustrates.
Christ also worships God though. He called Father his God and the Lord of heaven and earth. He also said, that the doctrine was not his, but of The Father Who had sent him.

Paul also wrote that when all things are made subject unto him, then he (Christ) too will be subject to God, so that God may be All in All.

Christ did not just worship God by praying to Him, he did His Will and became obedient unto death, and then God raised him back up to life.

In the quote from Revelation, Christ (The Lamb) is likened to a lamp for God's Glory and Light, to shine through.

Christ saying that whoever has seen him has seen The Father fits this exactly again because The Light/God was seen shining/emanating from/through him by those who saw him.

That is how these scriptures make sense to me at least.

If Christ was equal to God as is claimed and generalised as doctrine by Christianity, then he would not have needed to pray to God to ask Him and he would not have had to submit his own will to do the Will of God his Father instead. But that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that Christ asked Father if the cup could pass from him, but not for his, but for Father's Will to be done. That means he submitted himself, completely and fully, to do God's Will instead of his own, becoming obedient unto death.
 
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