So...Why did God create man?

Lisa

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#1
Gonna bring this conversation here..
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My answer to you @Infinityloop

Let’s go back to the beginning then. God created heaven and earth and He also created plants, animals. He could have stopped there but He didn’t He created man in His image. Why? He could have left it with plants and animals but He made someone He could relate with by making him in His image...right?


When Adam and Eve break the relationship of trust with God and sin enters the world is when that relationship is broken. They are separated from God at that point and are now no longer able to live in the garden in the garden, they aren’t interacting face to face with God anymore.

Yet all through the OT God is still around but not in the close way He was in the garden until He sent His Son to save us from our sins and reconcile us to God, bringing us back into a close relationship with Him again. You can’t get closer to the Holy Spirit living in my heart...

How is Adam a god? He was created so he can’t be a god. Jesus was and is in heaven as God...no one created God. There is no similarity in that respect.

There is no purpose to religion, except to say that we were born to worship God and if we don’t believe in God we will make a god to worship. There is only one true God and the rest are fakes and phonies.

History is a long line of people who lived before us....In God’s word the Bible, God shared with us the things He wanted us to know about Him and things that we could learn from the people before us and their relationship or lack thereof with God. God is always the focus of the Bible and His relationship or lack with man...that’s our history.

Yes there is a heaven and hell and Jesus came to save us from hell so we could be reconciled to God and live with Him again instead of being punished for our sins in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. God is actually loving and caring about us or else He could just let us go straight to hell without ever trying to save us.

What is the point of the universe? God did create the heavens and where does God live? In heaven.. could the universe be heaven? I used to think the sun was where God lived because God is the light of the world and no one could come close to touching God.. what better place than the sun? Idk if that’s true but it did make sense to me.
 





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#2
Don't forget the angels.


God also made angels... and one in particular has been a great antagonist this time around in God's creative story.

And that account must be settled as well.


Justice is coming... also to the angels and not just man.
 





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#3
God created the angels first as he wanted fellowship/relationship with other beings that would willingly choose to have relationship with him. When the rebellion of 1/3 of the angels occured in heaven, God created Man to fulfill at least two purposes.

The angels had full revelation and knowledge of God's glory and majesty, yet satan/lucifer was able to create doubt or at least questions about God's worthiness to reign over creation (i.e. the enemy challenged God's sovereignty). God created the present Earth as arena to prove a point. By creating man and allowing the enemy access to influence man he basically created a scenario that would prove beyond all shadow of doubt who was more worthy to reign; God or anyone of his creations (either angels or man).

So one of the reasons for creating man was that we would be the subject of God's object lesson not only for mankind to learn, but also the Angels and all of the heavenly realm to truly witness and experience the results of anyone other than God himself reigning with all authority.

The second main reason is of course so God had another creation to pour out his unconditional love, grace and mercy to. Ultimately it is man's true purpose to be the extension and representation of God in the earth. Until Jesus came along man for all intents and purposes failed to fulfill that purpose. Jesus on the other hand perfectly fulfilled that purpose and in the ages to come God will reconcile and heal all of us so that everyone of us will become the perfect representation of God's love, grace and mercy.

A secondary purpose of those who accept and fulfill the invitation to be the body of Chrsit will be to judge the angels in the coming ages.
 





Lisa

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#4
God created the angels first as he wanted fellowship/relationship with other beings that would willingly choose to have relationship with him. When the rebellion of 1/3 of the angels occured in heaven, God created Man to fulfill at least two purposes.

The angels had full revelation and knowledge of God's glory and majesty, yet satan/lucifer was able to create doubt or at least questions about God's worthiness to reign over creation (i.e. the enemy challenged God's sovereignty). God created the present Earth as arena to prove a point. By creating man and allowing the enemy access to influence man he basically created a scenario that would prove beyond all shadow of doubt who was more worthy to reign; God or anyone of his creations (either angels or man).

So one of the reasons for creating man was that we would be the subject of God's object lesson not only for mankind to learn, but also the Angels and all of the heavenly realm to truly witness and experience the results of anyone other than God himself reigning with all authority.

The second main reason is of course so God had another creation to pour out his unconditional love, grace and mercy to. Ultimately it is man's true purpose to be the extension and representation of God in the earth. Until Jesus came along man for all intents and purposes failed to fulfill that purpose. Jesus on the other hand perfectly fulfilled that purpose and in the ages to come God will reconcile and heal all of us so that everyone of us will become the perfect representation of God's love, grace and mercy.

A secondary purpose of those who accept and fulfill the invitation to be the body of Chrsit will be to judge the angels in the coming ages.
I thought he created angels to serve Him? Obviously He gave them free will too. So He didn’t create man and angels for the same reason, but gave them the same free will.

Adam and Eve also has full revelation of God as they spoke with and walked with God in the garden. That satan is able to manipulate people away from God is pretty extraordinary....but then again not if people don’t want any rules and want to do what they want it isn’t.


God’s love isn’t unconditional. He loves us but doesn’t let us stay the way He found us...so I can’t really call that unconditional. Unconditional love would mean He lets you stay the way He found you.


Some people won’t be reconciled to God and will be thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. There is no mercy when your life is down..you can only make the choice in this life whether or not to believe God and be saved.

before you can even get to that stage you must believe correctly in this one...
 





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#5
I thought he created angels to serve Him?
"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many

Christians often throw around the idea of serving God, but in reality we cannot serve God. We can only serve other human beings. Jesus was our example as he came to serve other humans, not God. Angels are messengers and serve humanity....there is nothing they can do for God himself, as he needs nothing.

Adam and Eve also has full revelation of God as they spoke with and walked with God in the garden. That satan is able to manipulate people away from God is pretty extraordinary....but then again not if people don’t want any rules and want to do what they want it isn’t.
Just because Adam and Eve walked and spoke with God does not mean they had a full revelation of his majesty and glory. Although, even if they did, I'm not sure what your point is.

God’s love isn’t unconditional. He loves us but doesn’t let us stay the way He found us...so I can’t really call that unconditional. Unconditional love would mean He lets you stay the way He found you.
I'm not going around in this circle with you again. I'm not going to defend my perspective of a loving, moral and omnipotent God against your perspective of a sadistic, immoral and incapable God.

Some people won’t be reconciled to God and will be thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. There is no mercy when your life is down..you can only make the choice in this life whether or not to believe God and be saved.
Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
 





Lisa

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#6
"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many

Christians often throw around the idea of serving God, but in reality we cannot serve God. We can only serve other human beings. Jesus was our example as he came to serve other humans, not God. Angels are messengers and serve humanity....there is nothing they can do for God himself, as he needs nothing.


Just because Adam and Eve walked and spoke with God does not mean they had a full revelation of his majesty and glory. Although, even if they did, I'm not sure what your point is.


I'm not going around in this circle with you again. I'm not going to defend my perspective of a loving, moral and omnipotent God against your perspective of a sadistic, immoral and incapable God.


Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
Can’t we serve God by serving others though? In fact God says..
Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​
‭‭

The good works that we do for God are only done because He prepared us for them, not because we did them on our own..we do them for God. Works apart from this are filthy rags.


I’m not sure how by saying God doesn’t love unconditionally that He’s now sadistic, immoral and incapable. Does He not begin a good work in us once we believe? Is that loving someone unconditionally then? Don’t we become new creations?
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
If we aren’t the same because of God...can we still say that He loves unconditionally? He changes you, that’s not unconditional.

What I meant to say was there is no mercy when your life is done...you only have this life to take God’s merciful grace and be saved. He does have compassion and that is why He sent His Son to die in our place.
 





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#7
Can’t we serve God by serving others though? In fact God says..
Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭​

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Yes of course but you are missing the point. God only has us serve others because that is what his nature is. He desires for us to be like him. Since he serves, he expects us to serve others. But strictly speaking there is no way for us to serve God directly. If God has no inherent need to be served why would he create a class of beings with the sole or primary purpose of serving him?​
‭‭
The good works that we do for God are only done because He prepared us for them, not because we did them on our own..we do them for God. Works apart from this are filthy rags.
I would argue God has us do them for our own good, not for him. By serving and doing good works, we grow and become more like him. He has no intrinsic need for us to serve him.

I’m not sure how by saying God doesn’t love unconditionally that He’s now sadistic, immoral and incapable.
Of course you don't and that is why I don't want to get into it again. We've gone back and forth on this too many times but you are too stuck in your pagan dogma of eternal torment, to discuss it rationally.

Does He not begin a good work in us once we believe? Is that loving someone unconditionally then? Don’t we become new creations?
2 Corinthians 5:17

1 John 4:19​

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.​

If we aren’t the same because of God...can we still say that He loves unconditionally? He changes you, that’s not unconditional.

He changes us, it's not us changing for him. You said it above...it's not us doing them on our own.​

What I meant to say was there is no mercy when your life is done...you only have this life to take God’s merciful grace and be saved. He does have compassion and that is why He sent His Son to die in our place.
Well that's contrary to scripture isn't it, to say that God's mercy has an expiration date?
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.

For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning

Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love.

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures forever;

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord, your Redeemer.
 





Lisa

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#9
Yes of course but you are missing the point. God only has us serve others because that is what his nature is. He desires for us to be like him. Since he serves, he expects us to serve others. But strictly speaking there is no way for us to serve God directly. If God has no inherent need to be served why would he create a class of beings with the sole or primary purpose of serving him?​
‭‭
When does God serve us?

Of course you don't and that is why I don't want to get into it again. We've gone back and forth on this too many times but you are too stuck in your pagan dogma of eternal torment, to discuss it rationally.
Eternal torment isn’t pagan...
Matthew‬ ‭25:46‬ ‭
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
‭‭
Yes, He loves us...but doesn’t let us stay the way we are...
Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good world in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Well that's contrary to scripture isn't it, to say that God's mercy has an expiration date?
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.

For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning

Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love.

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures forever;

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord, your Redeemer.
Well, when your dead...there is no deciding. God loves everyone, and wants everyone to be saved...but its our choice, if we choose no and die with the no, then there’s only one spot left for us. God sends Christians to preach the Good News so people aren’t lost but its ultimately a personal decision and God will honor that decision, thought He would rather people be saved. After all Jesus died while we were all still sinners, you don’t have to take His gift.
Matthew‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭13:42‬ ‭
And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭13:50‬ ‭
And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭22:13‬ ‭
Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
‭‭
Matthew‬ ‭25:30, 46‬ ‭
Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

‭‭

Revelation‬ ‭20:10-15‬ ‭
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 





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#10
When does God serve us?
Really? For a supposed Bible believing Christian, you don't appear to be very familiar with the Bible.

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change
Behold, God is my helper; the Lord is the upholder of my life
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you
Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!
Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all
Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
For you have been a stronghold to the poor, a stronghold to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat; for the breath of the ruthless is like a storm against a wall
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day

Eternal torment isn’t pagan...
Like I said I'm not going around and around in circles with you on this again. It's well established that Eternal Torment is a pagan doctrine.
Yes, He loves us...but doesn’t let us stay the way we are...
Philippians 1:6​

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good world in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.​
Thank you for proving my point. It's God doing the good work and changing us, because he loves us, whether we make good decision or not. That's unconditional love. It's not God loving us because we do the work and change ourselves. That would be conditional love.

Well, when your dead...there is no deciding.
of course not! But no one will be dead in the ages to come. All humanity will be resurrected. There can be no eternal torment if your dead either. See that's the most ludicrous part of eternal torment that Christians fail to acknowledge or answer. The idea that God would raise up dead sinners just so he can torture them forever. If the wages of sin is death, why not just leave them dead and be done with it?
God loves everyone, and wants everyone to be saved...but its our choice,
Really? Did you choose God, or did God choose you?
God doesn't get what he wants? If not, then he isn't really omnipotent is he. Your version of God is incapable of bringing about his own will. It's inconsistent and absurd.

if we choose no and die with the no, then there’s only one spot left for us. God sends Christians to preach the Good News so people aren’t lost but its ultimately a personal decision and God will honor that decision, thought He would rather people be saved. After all Jesus died while we were all still sinners, you don’t have to take His gift.
Matthew‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭​

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭13:42‬ ‭​

And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭13:50‬ ‭​

And will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭22:13‬ ‭​

Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

‭‭​

Matthew‬ ‭25:30, 46‬ ‭​

Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Been through this multiple times also. The greek word that is translated as "eternal" in most english bibles, doesn't actually mean eternal. It means age, or long period of time. But whatever, as usual you are too close minded and stuck in your religious dogma, to even consider it.

Revelation‬ ‭20:10-15‬ ‭​

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
We have been through this multiple times also. The greek word that is translated as "eternal" in most english bibles, doesn't actually mean eternal. It means age, or long period of time. But whatever, as usual you are too close minded and stuck in your religious dogma, to even consider it.
 





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Lisa

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#11
Really? For a supposed Bible believing Christian, you don't appear to be very familiar with the Bible.

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change
Behold, God is my helper; the Lord is the upholder of my life
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you
Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!
Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all
Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
For you have been a stronghold to the poor, a stronghold to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat; for the breath of the ruthless is like a storm against a wall
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day
By His grace He helps us...if I ask God to help me He helps me.
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:14‬ ‭
This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.​


Like I said I'm not going around and around in circles with you on this again. It's well established that Eternal Torment is a pagan doctrine.
/QUOTE]​
It’s totally Christian..didn’t you read the verses I posted...Jesus tells us eternal torment and getting thrown into the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is real.


Thank you for proving my point. It's God doing the good work and changing us, because he loves us, whether we make good decision or not. That's unconditional love. It's not God loving us because we do the work and change ourselves. That would be conditional love.
That’s quite the mind bender..no, if it was true unconditional love then God wouldn’t change us at all.


of course not! But no one will be dead in the ages to come. All humanity will be resurrected. There can be no eternal torment if your dead either. See that's the most ludicrous part of eternal torment that Christians fail to acknowledge or answer. The idea that God would raise up dead sinners just so he can torture them forever. If the wages of sin is death, why not just leave them dead and be done with it?
Revelation‬ ‭20:10-15‬ ‭​
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Really? Did you choose God, or did God choose you?
God doesn't get what he wants? If not, then he isn't really omnipotent is he. Your version of God is incapable of bringing about his own will. It's inconsistent and absurd.
God gave eve one free will to choose what they want..but your choosing is not without consequences if your choose wrong. It’s not like God doesn’t warn you of you choose wrong that a punishment will happen...God told Adam that the day He eats the fruit that he will surely die and He are the fruit anyway knowing that. That’s why God sends us out to all the nations to preach the gospel...
Mark‬ ‭13:9-10‬ ‭
But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
‭‭
We have been through this multiple times also. The greek word that is translated as "eternal" in most english bibles, doesn't actually mean eternal. It means age, or long period of time. But whatever, as usual you are too close minded and stuck in your religious dogma, to even consider it.
lol...whatever you say, Todd. :rolleyes:
 





A Freeman

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#12
Man was created to provide the means to teach wayward souls who rebeled against Father (our Creator) how to be good, exactly as explained in Genesis 1:26.

The "original sin" actually occurredbeforethe Garden of Eden, and was the reason why we were cast down to the Earth. That "original sin" was doubting that Father is just and fair in all things, which made it possible for Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, aka the devil, red-dragon and the serpent, etc. to deceive one third of the angels of heaven (Rev. 12:3-4) into fighting with him in a coup attempt (Isa. 14:12-17) against Father.

Revelation 12:7-9
12:7 And there WAS war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).

Unfortunately, after being defeated and banished here to Earth, to this prison-reform school for the criminally insane, the "original sin" was repeated when Eve listened to the serpent (Lucifer/Satan), and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil (thereby becoming confused between the two) and then convinced Adam to do the same.

All Father has ever wanted is for us to come to our senses, stop listening to Satan and his lies, and start doing unto others as we would like them to do unto us. Love thy neighbor. The golden rule. The Second Great Commandment (see Mark 12:29-31).

Until we learn this basic, universal principle, there is no hope of being pardoned and allowed to go home, to heaven.
 





Lisa

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#13
Man was created to provide the means to teach wayward souls who rebeled against Father (our Creator) how to be good, exactly as explained in Genesis 1:26.

The "original sin" actually occurredbeforethe Garden of Eden, and was the reason why we were cast down to the Earth. That "original sin" was doubting that Father is just and fair in all things, which made it possible for Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, aka the devil, red-dragon and the serpent, etc. to deceive one third of the angels of heaven (Rev. 12:3-4) into fighting with him in a coup attempt (Isa. 14:12-17) against Father.

Revelation 12:7-9
12:7 And there WAS war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).

Unfortunately, after being defeated and banished here to Earth, to this prison-reform school for the criminally insane, the "original sin" was repeated when Eve listened to the serpent (Lucifer/Satan), and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil (thereby becoming confused between the two) and then convinced Adam to do the same.

All Father has ever wanted is for us to come to our senses, stop listening to Satan and his lies, and start doing unto others as we would like them to do unto us. Love thy neighbor. The golden rule. The Second Great Commandment (see Mark 12:29-31).

Until we learn this basic, universal principle, there is no hope of being pardoned and allowed to go home, to heaven.
Wow! That’s some story you have there and Todd agrees with it...somehow that doesn’t surprise me.
 





A Freeman

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#14
Thank-you Lisa; however you should have the same explanation for why Father created us in your Bible too.

In fact, the same basic creation account is given to us on the very first page of the Bible if we use the definition for "waters" provided in the book of Revelation (also found in Isaiah 17:12-13).

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The "waters" which thou sawest, where the"Whore" sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, andtongues.

Genesis 1:6-8
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the Second Day.

Substituting the definitions provided by these Bible "code" words reveals the message within the message.

Genesis 1:6-8 (decoded)
1:6 And God said, Let there be Heaven in the midst of the people, and let it divide the people (the 2/3rds who fought with God and Michael against Satan - Rev. 12: 3-4, 7-9) from the people (the 1/3rd who fought with Lucifer/Satan against God).
1:7 And God made Heaven, and divided the people which [were] under Heaven from the people which [were] above Heaven: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the Second Day.

Hopefully this also helps explain why we are all sinners (Psalm 53, Rom. 3:10-12), i.e. people who do sin/do evil/break Father's Law/Commandments, thereby hurting one another and ourselves. We wouldn't need to be taught how to be good if we were already good people.
 





Lisa

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#15
Thank-you Lisa; however you should have the same explanation for why Father created us in your Bible too.

In fact, the same basic creation account is given to us on the very first page of the Bible if we use the definition for "waters" provided in the book of Revelation (also found in Isaiah 17:12-13).

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The "waters" which thou sawest, where the"Whore" sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, andtongues.

Genesis 1:6-8
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the Second Day.


Substituting the definitions provided by these Bible "code" words reveals the message within the message.

Genesis 1:6-8 (decoded)
1:6 And God said, Let there be Heaven in the midst of the people, and let it divide the people (the 2/3rds who fought with God and Michael against Satan - Rev. 12: 3-4, 7-9) from the people (the 1/3rd who fought with Lucifer/Satan against God).
1:7 And God made Heaven, and divided the people which [were] under Heaven from the people which [were] above Heaven: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the Second Day.


Hopefully this also helps explain why we are all sinners (Psalm 53, Rom. 3:10-12), i.e. people who do sin/do evil/break Father's Law/Commandments, thereby hurting one another and ourselves. We wouldn't need to be taught how to be good if we were already good people.
You know your reasoning for God making people doesn’t make any sense...when God separated the waters, he meant literal waters. When God said He created man in Our image He meant that literally too.

We are all sinners because the sin of Adam and Eve...we also know good from evil but choose to do evil because of the want to to sin which we were all born with.
 





A Freeman

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#16
You know your reasoning for God making people doesn’t make any sense...when God separated the waters, he meant literal waters. When God said He created man in Our image He meant that literally too.
Hopefully what was shared wasn't taken to be mutually exclusive. In other words, in addition to the "waters" being "the people", as it's defined in Scripture, there could be a literal, physical separation of waters as well. Although that would mean there are waters running through the heavens, which doesn't make much sense, does it?

Isaiah 17:12-13
17:12 Woe to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the "seas"; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

We are all sinners because the sin of Adam and Eve...we also know good from evil but choose to do evil because of the want to to sin which we were all born with.
So we're supposed to believe that our Loving Father (God), Who is just and fair in ALL things, is punishing us for what Adam and Eve did?

Does that really make sense to you please?
 





Lisa

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#17
Hopefully what was shared wasn't taken to be mutually exclusive. In other words, in addition to the "waters" being "the people", as it's defined in Scripture, there could be a literal, physical separation of waters as well. Although that would mean there are waters running through the heavens, which doesn't make much sense, does it?



So we're supposed to believe that our Loving Father (God), Who is just and fair in ALL things, is punishing us for what Adam and Eve did?

Does that really make sense to you please?
I don’t think we know what is running through the heavens or even how many there are...doesn’t Paul talk about the third heaven? The splitting waters means exactly that.

We are all born with a sin nature because of the sin of Adam and Eve, it doesn’t seem fair..unless you think you can keep the law on your own? All of the law.
 





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#18

Yes of course but you are missing the point. God only has us serve others because that is what his nature is. He desires for us to be like him. Since he serves, he expects us to serve others. But strictly speaking there is no way for us to serve God directly. If God has no inherent need to be served why would he create a class of beings with the sole or primary purpose of serving him?​
‭‭

I would argue God has us do them for our own good, not for him. By serving and doing good works, we grow and become more like him. He has no intrinsic need for us to serve him.


Of course you don't and that is why I don't want to get into it again. We've gone back and forth on this too many times but you are too stuck in your pagan dogma of eternal torment, to discuss it rationally.


1 John 4:19​


He changes us, it's not us changing for him. You said it above...it's not us doing them on our own.​

Well that's contrary to scripture isn't it, to say that God's mercy has an expiration date?
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.

For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning

Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love.

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures forever;

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord, your Redeemer.
What is your religion? I'm curious, not really in a good way as you keep stating things about how we become like him by doing his will, or whatever you're saying. We cannot become like God, not in the slightest. Yes, there are verses where Jesus says to try to be Holy like our father in heaven, but he means when you get tempted, turn to him, resist the devil. Go out, and tell people about the good news as Jesus did with many. Basically follow his footsteps, otherwise we would be either cold or lukewarm Christians. Anyways, while we can act as best as we can like our savior, we can't become Gods. Actually, for the majority of things little or not, we need to pray about it. Idk about you, but I'm living dependent on God.
 





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#19
god was nothing more than a tyrant. he killed his own BLOOD son out of pure jealousy. he then created other beings as a settlement of his sufferings. His intentions are nothing short of what thy know to be true thyne own heart's and mind's.
Damn, it's rare times I meet someone who says this mess!
 





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#20
The very idea of Jesus being God-incarnate and "dying for the sins of the world" only implies nihilism, meaninglessness to everything (not just this world but all forms of existence). For there even to need to be an atonement of sin implies God sending Prophets prior to Jesus (from Genesis to Malachi) to have no purpose, to be defacto senseless. The very central doctrine of mainstream Christianity makes God's creation of man and the universe, innately meaningless. There will never be any chance of me accepting Christianity again, I reject it with all of my being, it is repulsive and offensive.
At the same time, I do love Jesus and appreciate the Bible a lot. It's a shame that Christians make a mockery of the Bible and Jesus though.