So...Why did God create man?

Spades

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I agree, but what does a process of doing and living, taking action look like?

1. Have a relationship with Jesus
2. He points out our faults and convicts us of wrongful thoughts
3. Because of our relationship we change with His help and treat people differently, do things differently, take action differently
4. Real change happens because of this
I'm not sure, Camidria. But the points you made above almost make it seems like an excuse not to do the work and just lean on that religion to take care of everything for you as long as all you do is "have faith". It takes more than just having faith. It takes the followers of that religion to take action against what they know is wrong. It takes real work and selflessness to go forth without fear and step up for humanity. Real change happens when real people acknowledge wrong and take action against it.
 





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Camidria

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I'm not sure, Camidria. But the points you made above almost make it seems like an excuse not to do the work and just lean on that religion to take care of everything for you as long as all you do is "have faith".
No actually not, because of Jesus, I have turned around many times (inconvenient for me) to give a beggar money. Because of Jesus, I have practiced to always be polite to people even if they irritated me, and after much practice and with His help, they don't irritate me anymore.
Because of Jesus, I no longer get angry easily, and I can manage a conflict situation calmly, He showed me how bad I acted before, He always said to me and reminded me to be calm in my mind, with His help alone I have mastered acting calmly even though I boil inside.

It takes more than just having faith. It takes the followers of that religion to take action against what they know is wrong. It takes real work and selflessness to go forth without fear and step up for humanity. Real change happens when real people acknowledge wrong and take action against it.
Faith is not inaction, if it is yes it's religion....

Having a relationship with God is taking action, He has shown me where I was selfish and reminded me time and time again about the behaviors I needed to change. Taking action, pointing it out when I see injustice, it was also a push from inside my heart from the Holy Spirit.

If you do not have a relationship with Jesus you will not understand that push from the inside I am talking about, that still small voice telling you that you need to change your behavior, telling you you should apologize for something or do something uncomfortable but right. Turning around when you are busy, giving money when you do not have enough yourself, caring when your own heart is broken. These things are hard to do, but when the Holy Spirit pushes me from the inside I do them.
 





A Freeman

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ALL organized religion was created by Satan, to keep us AWAY from God. That includes Talmudic Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taosim, Shintoism, etc. ALL of them.

With regard to "Christianity", which would more aptly be named "Paulianity" or "Churchianity", it is truly amazing that most so-called Christians actually believe that Christ came to increase evil in this world rather than to eliminate it.

The sacrifice of Jesus was to pay for our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25) NOT to give us the freedom to sin with impunity, which would obviously make this world even MORE evil than it already is.

Sin = breaking The Law (1 John 3:4).

The Law is found in the first five books of the Bible, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The Law includes includes not only the Commandments, but also the PERFECT agricultural policy (with no GMOs or chemicals), the PERFECT economic policy (which eliminates poverty - Deut. 15:4), the PERFECT system of governance (with no politicians), the PERFECT system of justice (with all of God's Statutes and Judgments, which eliminates all lawyers/attorney/barristers) and the PERFECT Healthy Diet.

Christ obviously did NOT do away with The Law (Matt. 5:17-20), which is still in effect TODAY.

So the ONLY Way to put our FAITH into action, and make this world a better place for everyone, is to actually OBEY our Creator's Law, as we've been COMMANDED to do for our own benefit, to protect us from all of this evil/sin/crime and to set and keep us FREE.

This is the same message that ALL of God's Messengers have brought to this world. And it is very, very simple:

KEEPING THE LAW = eliminates sin/evil/crimes/poverty/slavery and DEATH

BREAKING THE LAW = causes sin/evil/crimes/poverty/slavery and DEATH

Stop believing the myth that we will be rewarded for being criminals. We won't.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the "I AM" thy God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His Commandments and His Statutes and His Judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the "I AM" thy God shall bless thee in the land where thou goest to possess it.
30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, where thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
30:20 That thou mayest love the "I AM" thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He [is] thy Life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the "I AM" sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel, to give them.
 





Camidria

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@Spades
Let me be clear -
if you have Faith and you are not putting it into action, then it isn't Faith
Faith without action isn't faith

If I believe a chair will not break when I sit on it, yet I refuse to sit on it, then I do NOT believe the chair will hold me at all....

There is a difference between people saying they believe and people actually believing.....
 





Spades

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No actually not, because of Jesus, I have turned around many times (inconvenient for me) to give a beggar money. Because of Jesus, I have practiced to always be polite to people even if they irritated me, and after much practice and with His help, they don't irritate me anymore.
Because of Jesus, I no longer get angry easily, and I can manage a conflict situation calmly, He showed me how bad I acted before, He always said to me and reminded me to be calm in my mind, with His help alone I have mastered acting calmly even though I boil inside.

Faith is not inaction, if it is yes it's religion....

Having a relationship with God is taking action, He has shown me where I was selfish and reminded me time and time again about the behaviors I needed to change. Taking action, pointing it out when I see injustice, it was also a push from inside my heart from the Holy Spirit.

If you do not have a relationship with Jesus you will not understand that push from the inside I am talking about, that still small voice telling you that you need to change your behavior, telling you you should apologize for something or do something uncomfortable but right. Turning around when you are busy, giving money when you do not have enough yourself, caring when your own heart is broken. These things are hard to do, but when the Holy Spirit pushes me from the inside I do them.
Oh well, I'm glad you found it in your heart to, because of Jesus, inconvenience yourself to give a beggar money. In my heart... it's not an inconvenience but a blessing to be able to connect with another human being and share in a part of their life, learn lessons of my own. I am not fond of letting people irritate me. I prefer to cut that off as they are just sapping my energy and that is not healthy. Boiling inside while appearing calm on the outside is not healthy, either.

I do not need to have a relationship with your savior to have morals or integrity. It quite makes me want to giggle for you to assume so. You shouldn't need the Holy Spirit to push you to do these things. You should just do them and not act like you are superior when you do. These are your fellow human beings. We are none of us superior to the other. You are equal to me as the man asking for spare change on the corner, except that I would much rather hear him speak than you, because you seem to have very little actual life experience. I hope that you are humbled at some point.
 





Spades

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I'm not talking about sitting on a chair as "action". I'm talking about going out and doing something to stop the madness of corruption. We need this, collectively, as humans.
 





Camidria

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You should just do them and not act like you are superior when you do. These are your fellow human beings. We are none of us superior to the other. You are equal to me as the man asking for spare change on the corner, except that I would much rather hear him speak than you, because you seem to have very little actual life experience. I hope that you are humbled at some point.
And this is the reason why I tell you my faults, because if I actually thought I am superior I would have colored myself in a better light.... It's not fair to assume this is what I think about myself, you don't know me....

I wanted to tell you what the difference is when you have a relationship with Jesus, you learn to be a better person... You say we should be people that take action, I tell you that I take action but only because Jesus changed my heart, giving Him the glory, I do not walk around telling others how I take action simply because of this, because of the way you judged me, people think you boast when you tell, just like you have judged me now.... So you say nothing and just do....

But today, I wanted to illustrate to you how God can make you change.... You think you are a good person? Tell me the people that irritate you, do you decide to look past their faults and see past they way they act, try to see their pain? If no, then you aren't this amazing person that you think you are as well, because what motivates giving and caring?

Love

Can you love people regardless of what they do? I don't believe so, even you are selective who you decide to care for...
What does true action look like then?
It's when you love people enough to look past their faults, see their need, and provide that need, without expecting something in return....
Can you do that? Perhaps

Is it limited or unconditional - deep down if you examine your heart, you will see there is always conditions attached....

Love becomes unconditional when I allow God to have perfect love through me, that happens in a relationship with Him, only He can love perfectly, unconditionally.......

Well then, thank you for your 2 cents, it saddens me that you have gone right ahead, took my vulnerabilities that i laid bare to illustrate a point, and judge me based on that snippety of my life.....
 





Camidria

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I'm not talking about sitting on a chair as "action". I'm talking about going out and doing something to stop the madness of corruption. We need this, collectively, as humans.
It was a metaphor
 





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Im
Just having a discussion...isn’t that what you do on a discussion board?
Of course I believe in trials and tribulations, but like you even said it has a purpose to bring us closer to God.

Yes God punishes people, just like a parent punishes a child. But a good parent never punishes out of vengeance. There is always a purpose to Gods punishment and his fire. Fire represents the purification process of God.
There is no place for eternal torment if it has no hope of reconciling the one being punished to God.
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. If there was no resurrection sinners would simply stay dead in the grave. Do you really believe God’s anger lasts forever that he would resurrect sinners simply to torment them out of vengeance with absolutely no redeeming purpose?
Hi Todd,
Hope this finds you well and having a good day.
There are a couple of places in the Koran, where it says "except as The Lord Wills":

6:128. One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Beings! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! We made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which Thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as "I AM" willeth." For thy Lord is full of Wisdom and Knowledge.

11:106. Those who are wretched shall be in The Fire: there will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs:
11:107. They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) Accomplisher of what He planneth.
11:108. And those who are blessed shall be in The Garden: they will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break.

(Suras ;- http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible/#koran )

These (and others) could therefore be seen as lining up with Galatians 6:5-7 and other Bible passages like Jesus' parable in Luke 15. However, it also makes abundantly clear that this place of Punishment that is spoken of is not a nice place to be and that absolutely no-one would want to be in it even for a moment... let alone "an eternity"! (and who can even know, how long "an eternity" is?) It says in another place, that people will only be punished with exactly what they have deserved for themselves, but, those who truly repent and turn to believing God will end up being blessed much more than they could ever have deserved it (like in Luke 15).

Thought you may perhaps find this interesting.
 





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King of kings' Bible, Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).
 





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Todd

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Hi Todd,
Hope this finds you well and having a good day.
There are a couple of places in the Koran, where it says "except as The Lord Wills":

6:128. One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Beings! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! We made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which Thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as "I AM" willeth." For thy Lord is full of Wisdom and Knowledge.

11:106. Those who are wretched shall be in The Fire: there will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs:
11:107. They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) Accomplisher of what He planneth.
11:108. And those who are blessed shall be in The Garden: they will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the Earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break.

(Suras ;- http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible/#koran )

These (and others) could therefore be seen as lining up with Galatians 6:5-7 and other Bible passages like Jesus' parable in Luke 15. However, it also makes abundantly clear that this place of Punishment that is spoken of is not a nice place to be and that absolutely no-one would want to be in it even for a moment... let alone "an eternity"! (and who can even know, how long "an eternity" is?) It says in another place, that people will only be punished with exactly what they have deserved for themselves, but, those who truly repent and turn to believing God will end up being blessed much more than they could ever have deserved it (like in Luke 15).

Thought you may perhaps find this interesting.

Thank you, I hope you are well and having a good day also! 1 Timothy 2:4 says God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" So their is the exception and it is for all men. Make no mistake, I believe the passages that speak of the Fire for unbelievers and sinners, and just as you said it's not something anyone should want to experience even for a moment. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, no doubt.

I just don't trust the english translations or church dogma that insists the Fire is eternal or never ending. It's not consistent with God's will, his nature and his character as expressed in the whole of scripture. His anger is not forever, but his mercy is. I also can't reconcile that the just punishement for sins committed in a finite world is infinite in duration (you mentioned people will only be punished with exactly what they deserved).

The fire has a purpose to refine and bring unbelievers to the knowledge of truth. If there is no hope of the punishement ever ending and no hope of reconcilliation with God, then the fire serves no purpose other than pure vengeance. Eternal vengeance is not consistent witht the character and nature of the God of Jesus Christ.
 





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Thank you, I hope you are well and having a good day also! 1 Timothy 2:4 says God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" So their is the exception and it is for all men. Make no mistake, I believe the passages that speak of the Fire for unbelievers and sinners, and just as you said it's not something anyone should want to experience even for a moment. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, no doubt.

I just don't trust the english translations or church dogma that insists the Fire is eternal or never ending. It's not consistent with God's will, his nature and his character as expressed in the whole of scripture. His anger is not forever, but his mercy is. I also can't reconcile that the just punishement for sins committed in a finite world is infinite in duration (you mentioned people will only be punished with exactly what they deserved).

The fire has a purpose to refine and bring unbelievers to the knowledge of truth. If there is no hope of the punishement ever ending and no hope of reconcilliation with God, then the fire serves no purpose other than pure vengeance. Eternal vengeance is not consistent witht the character and nature of the God of Jesus Christ.
In 2 Esdras it says this:

2 Esdras
9:11. And they that have loathed My Law, while they still had liberty, and, when as yet place for repentance was open unto them, understood not, but despised it;
9:12. The same must know it after death by pain.
9:13 And therefore be thou not curious how the unGodly shall be punished, and when: but inquire how the righteous shall be saved, whose the world is, and for whom the world was created (Thom. 2:10).
 





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FaithAndStrength

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Oy vey! There is nothing rational, logical or compassionate about this post. There is nothing about this post that portrays the God of love, grave and mercy l know. I couldn’t stand to stomach spending eternity with the God you have portrayed here.

I guess we are done with this discussion.
You could have looked up the verses for yourself but alrighty then.
 





Todd

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You could have looked up the verses for yourself but alrighty then.
What verses? I have spent 30 years studying the Bible and know that what you posted does not represent the God of Jesus Christ. The verses in your English Bible translations that you think support eternal torment do not mean what you think they mean. It has been clearly and expliclitly shown by many bible scholars that Aion and Aionios do not mean eternal or forever and denote a time period of long but limited duration.

If you are interested in actually researching this for yourself and at least consider it, I can provide a few links to point you to the information. I don't expect you to take it on my word, but I would hope that if someone hints at the possibility there is a better understanding of the bible you would want to at least look into it.
 





Lisa

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Yes it has been so far, thank you for asking. :)

Yes, but it's important to take note how it also says that we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works:

King of kings' Bible, Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (do them - good works).

So as we become born-again of the spirit, all unemployment begins to cease.

He was addressing these words to the multitudes and to His disciples, as it says in Matthew 5:1-2

It's really not that difficult to fulfill The Law (The Commandments). All you have to do is to make sure that you are always focused on keeping the two Great Commandments on which all the others hang:

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the First and Great Commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two Commandments hang all The Law and the Prophets.

If we do that, then we can't possibly harm anyone else and we cannot possibly break any of the other Commandments if we keep these two. So, Jesus simplified it for us.

Romans
13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled The Law.
13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie), Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as [or more than] thyself.
13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of The Law.
The good works that God prepared beforehand for us...anything on our own is filthy rags...
 





Lisa

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I'm not religious. But I'm going to just drop this here... No debate, no rehashing, no reading of the bible is going to help our current problems. Real problems. In our actual backyards. And unless everyone puts their zealous feet forward in action to mirror what Jesus would have done... this is all just a bunch of bickering. Jesus was a rebel, acting on what he knew was moral. No matter who you are, or which religion... there is a moral compass we have inherently. Maybe ask yourself... what have I done today to help my fellow human beings? No one will EVER prove one religion wrong and one right, definitively. So stop trying and focus on humanity. One foot in front of the other... actions over words.
What do you think anyone can do to ‘fix’ things...really? Tolstoy has a quote “Everyone thinks of changing the world but no one thinks of changing himself.” It seems to me that people don’t even know how to change themselves..how then could they ‘figure’ out how to change the world? We don’t have it in us to do the right that we need to do all the time. The Bible tells us our problem is sin, no one lives up to the standard that God set for us..we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Jesus wasn’t a rebel but the solution to the sin problem, believing on Him will solve your sin problem as He comes into your life and changes you and renews your mind towards the good that God knows. That’s not inconsiderable...
 





Spades

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And this is the reason why I tell you my faults, because if I actually thought I am superior I would have colored myself in a better light.... It's not fair to assume this is what I think about myself, you don't know me....

I wanted to tell you what the difference is when you have a relationship with Jesus, you learn to be a better person... You say we should be people that take action, I tell you that I take action but only because Jesus changed my heart, giving Him the glory, I do not walk around telling others how I take action simply because of this, because of the way you judged me, people think you boast when you tell, just like you have judged me now.... So you say nothing and just do....

But today, I wanted to illustrate to you how God can make you change.... You think you are a good person? Tell me the people that irritate you, do you decide to look past their faults and see past they way they act, try to see their pain? If no, then you aren't this amazing person that you think you are as well, because what motivates giving and caring?

Love

Can you love people regardless of what they do? I don't believe so, even you are selective who you decide to care for...
What does true action look like then?
It's when you love people enough to look past their faults, see their need, and provide that need, without expecting something in return....
Can you do that? Perhaps

Is it limited or unconditional - deep down if you examine your heart, you will see there is always conditions attached....

Love becomes unconditional when I allow God to have perfect love through me, that happens in a relationship with Him, only He can love perfectly, unconditionally.......

Well then, thank you for your 2 cents, it saddens me that you have gone right ahead, took my vulnerabilities that i laid bare to illustrate a point, and judge me based on that snippety of my life.....
And this is the reason why I tell you my faults, because if I actually thought I am superior I would have colored myself in a better light.... It's not fair to assume this is what I think about myself, you don't know me....

I wanted to tell you what the difference is when you have a relationship with Jesus, you learn to be a better person... You say we should be people that take action, I tell you that I take action but only because Jesus changed my heart, giving Him the glory, I do not walk around telling others how I take action simply because of this, because of the way you judged me, people think you boast when you tell, just like you have judged me now.... So you say nothing and just do....

But today, I wanted to illustrate to you how God can make you change.... You think you are a good person? Tell me the people that irritate you, do you decide to look past their faults and see past they way they act, try to see their pain? If no, then you aren't this amazing person that you think you are as well, because what motivates giving and caring?

Love

Can you love people regardless of what they do? I don't believe so, even you are selective who you decide to care for...
What does true action look like then?
It's when you love people enough to look past their faults, see their need, and provide that need, without expecting something in return....
Can you do that? Perhaps

Is it limited or unconditional - deep down if you examine your heart, you will see there is always conditions attached....

Love becomes unconditional when I allow God to have perfect love through me, that happens in a relationship with Him, only He can love perfectly, unconditionally.......

Well then, thank you for your 2 cents, it saddens me that you have gone right ahead, took my vulnerabilities that i laid bare to illustrate a point, and judge me based on that snippety of my life.....
I judged you based on your tone and demeanor. I am glad for you and your happiness with God. At some point that still calls for personal responsibility. It saddens me that you are playing the victim but I wish you nothing less than the best! I'm not here for theological discussion, so I'll leave you all to it! Blessed be.
 





Camidria

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I judged you based on your tone and demeanor. I am glad for you and your happiness with God. At some point that still calls for personal responsibility. It saddens me that you are playing the victim but I wish you nothing less than the best! I'm not here for theological discussion, so I'll leave you all to it! Blessed be.
Communication is 93% facial expression, tone of voice, body language, 7% words....

you saw the 7% words and could not see the tone nor demeanor that I chatted with here.... there are plenty of my posts on this site, testimonies, my pain, what I have been through etc.

It saddens me that misjudge me, if you knew me you would know that I do take responsibility... anyway, all the best to you too, I will pray for you....
 





FaithAndStrength

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I judged you based on your tone and demeanor. I am glad for you and your happiness with God. At some point that still calls for personal responsibility. It saddens me that you are playing the victim but I wish you nothing less than the best! I'm not here for theological discussion, so I'll leave you all to it! Blessed be.
About 98% of people always claim every Christian they encounter views themselves as the victim or innocent especially when they mention your sinful faults. It's called righteous judgment, but apparently many get mad when they've been told their wrong doings, and it causes them to go into a fit of rage as they begin either mocking or insulting or both to the Christian and God. (Sigh) That's what we experience all the time, of course not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian, but if you've been judged RIGHTEOUSLY, that's a true Christian. I just wanted to inform you about it.
 





Camidria

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@Spades look I can see you are someone that values actions over words, I understand that. But please, we have not had a decent conversation, and things get pretty heavy on this forum as people express themselves and have debates.

It's pretty hard with a 7% communication to show action if there hasn't been enough dialogue. So yeah, I hope you understand that, be blessed and I'll be praying for you...
 





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