Christian Zionism Discussed

[Claire Rousseau]

@DesertRose

Ok - it's worth considering the claims made here... This is what James Perloff believes "Christian Zionists" hold to, based on the link you posted:

https://jamesperloff.com/2016/08/31/the-war-on-christianity-part-ii-the-abomination-and-blasphemy-of-christian-zionism/

• God wanted the Jews to return to, and take over, Palestine.
• Godhas two plans of salvation—one through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the other a guarantee reserved for Jews, his “Chosen People.”
• Christians should not involve themselves in politics, education, business or the arts, as these are “worldly” matters that should be left in the hands of “worldly” people. (The consequences of this doctrine are very visible in American culture today.)
• God deals with mankind differently during different historical time frames or “dispensations,” of which there are seven. The current one, “Grace” under Jesus Christ, is merely the sixth of the seven dispensations.
• The Christian Church is doomed to inevitable failure, which will bring the Dispensation of Grace to a close.
• The end of this dispensational age will be marked by the Tribulation—worldwide persecution under the Antichrist for a period of seven years; however, Christians need not concern themselves with this, since Jesus will “Rapture” believers off the Earth and they won’t be around to experience it.
• Earth will then experience a Jewish era; Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifices will be reinstituted; Jesus will reign for a thousand years from Solomon’s rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

I have benefitted in my understanding of the Islamic perspective of prophecy you have provided in the "Prophetic Expectations" thread. The issue I want to draw out if anyone is interested...

Based on the supposed position of Christian Zionists set out above, to what degree does this characterisation represent the straightforward reading of the Bible or accurately reflect the beliefs of those others would label as "Christian Zionists".

The third one is the only one I find rational, or biblically based.

So what about the countless number of Jews who converted to Christianity throughout the years? Are they still Jews and when will they be gathered back to the land?

This is a resurgence of the Pharisee's line of thinking that you can be a Jew externally. What if a regathering of the Jews actually means regathering and returning people who are descendants of Abraham who have converted to Christianity at some point?

You make an excellent point here, rain.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

It sounds to me like a passive/aggressive Christian, hiding behind a nuclear-armed Jew, to wage jewhad and thus fulfill an apocalyptic agenda.

LOL!

Jewhad—-it’s so true!

 

[Serveto]

..“There is something very special and holy in Trump,” added Hayman...

As long as i get to laugh, nothing else matters
Seriously, reading that, all i could think of was "grab them by the p***y". Then i had to imagine Cyrus the great, circa 570 BC, making the same comment...*shudders*...

More associations, comparisons of Trump to the Persian messiah, Cyrus, by Netanyahu in this case:

"I want to tell you [Trump] that the Jewish people have a long memory. So we remember the proclamation of the great king, Cyrus, The Great, Persian king, 2,500 years ago ... And we remember that a few weeks ago President Donald J. Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mr. President, this will be remembered by our people throughout the ages."
Source​

Trump's fealty to Israel, or, what might be same thing, to Sheldon Adelson, is at this point already legendary, as Netanyahu here acknowledges. The original Cyrus probably had problems of his own, including within his own harem, but Trump seems the first would-be messiah in history to have allegedly consulted with one "Stormy Daniels," a porn star lately not being very quiet, despite the $130,000 she was reportedly paid to remain so. I wonder how many elementary and junior high school students across America and beyond are using search engines to educate themselves on Stormy Daniels, clicking the "image" function, of course, to see her fully engaged in her arts.

 

[Kung Fu]

Trump's fealty to Israel, or, what might be same thing, to Sheldon Adelson, is at this point already legendary, as Netanyahu here acknowledges. The original Cyrus probably had problems of his own, including within his own harem, but Trump seems one of the first messiahs, or "anointed" of the Lord, in history to have allegedly consulted with one "Stormy Daniels," a porn star lately not being very quiet, despite the $130,000 she was reportedly paid to remain so. I wonder how many elementary and junior high school students across America and beyond are using search engines to educate themselves on Stormy Daniels, clicking the "image" function, of course, to see her fully engaged in her arts.

LOL! Legit made me chuckle.

 

[Karlysymon]

More associations, comparisons of Trump to the Persian messiah, Cyrus, by Netanyahu in this case:

"I want to tell you [Trump] that the Jewish people have a long memory. So we remember the proclamation of the great king, Cyrus, The Great, Persian king, 2,500 years ago ... And we remember that a few weeks ago President Donald J. Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mr. President, this will be remembered by our people throughout the ages."​

Source​

Trump's fealty to Israel, or, what might be same thing, to Sheldon Adelson, is at this point already legendary, as Netanyahu here acknowledges. The original Cyrus probably had problems of his own, including within his own harem, but Trump seems the first would-be messiah in history to have allegedly consulted with one "Stormy Daniels," a porn star lately not being very quiet, despite the $130,000 she was reportedly paid to remain so. I wonder how many elementary and junior high school students across America and beyond are using search engines to educate themselves on Stormy Daniels, clicking the "image" function, of course, to see her fully engaged in her arts.

Well, evangelicals have Trump's back, "the Lord's anoited", all the way. @Renegade linked to a hilarious report here:
Televangelist Jim Bakker explained to his audience Friday that he had confirmed that Trump was merely scheduling private time with the woman in a hotel suite in order to share with her the good news of Jesus Christ, as he had become acquainted with her and was very concerned that she was not a Christian.

I've been pondering this unrelenting push by evangelical leaders, to portray Trump as some sort of messiah. Now that such words are fallingfrom the lips of politicians, iam starting to think its all by design.
Since presidents are selected, his predecessors could have declared Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Timing is everything. Why Trump? Why was the declaration made in his first year? I think the men behind
the curtain have some very dirty plans for the Middle East, and in their ranks are those who stand behind the pulpit, ready to sell think-tank policies as prophecies. The horrors/devastation will simply be passed off as the work of God, wrought by "His anoited". As usual, the "81% of evangelicals (a contested figure) who voted for Trump",
have to get on board before any military campaigns are launched. So far, that group has already been baited with "Jerusalem" and "the new Cyrus".

 

[Serveto]

Well, evangelicals have Trump's back, "the Lord's anoited", all the way. @Renegade linked to a hilarious report here:
Televangelist Jim Bakker explained to his audience Friday that he had confirmed that Trump was merely scheduling private time with the woman in a hotel suite in order to share with her the good news of Jesus Christ, as he had become acquainted with her and was very concerned that she was not a Christian.

The source which @Renegade cited in that case, the Babylonbee, is, granted, sometimes very funny indeed, but is also "Christian news satire." With that said, it wouldn't surprise me if Jim Bakker were to occasionally mistake the missionary position for evangelization.

I've been pondering this unrelenting push by evangelical leaders, to portray Trump as some sort of messiah. Now that such words are falling from the lips of politicians, i am starting to think its all by design.

Kabbalists do things not only according to their book, but also by the numbers, and, if it is not coincidental, there might be some secret, occult meaning to the number 70. I noticed, when news first broke of Trump's making good on his campaign promise to Sheldon Adelson to move the American embassy to Jerusalem, that it broke with 70 years of American intransigence in that regard:

"For seventy years, the US has, at least formally, aligned its position on Jerusalem with that of the international community and international law. According to UN Resolution 181 recommending the partition of Palestine, passed by the General Assembly on 29 November 1947, the Holy City was ‘established as a corpus separatum under a special international regime’.
Source ​

Since presidents are selected, his predecessors could have declared Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Timing is everything. Why Trump? Why was the declaration made in his first year? I think the men behind the curtain have some very dirty plans for the Middle East, and in their ranks are those who stand behind the pulpit, ready to sell think-tank policies as prophecies. The horrors/devastation will simply be passed off as the work of God, wrought by "His anoited". As usual, the "81% of evangelicals (a contested figure) who voted for Trump",have to get on board before any military campaigns are launched. So far, that group has already been baited with "Jerusalem" and "the new Cyrus".

​

 

[Karlysymon]

As usual, the "81% of evangelicals (a contested figure) who voted for Trump",
have to get on board before any military campaigns are launched. So far, that group has already been baited with "Jerusalem" and "the new Cyrus".

American Christians have argued that United States foreign policy should follow biblical models.The desire to see America and its leaders as instruments for the fulfillment of divine intentions remains an important cause of their longstanding sympathy for Zionism and the State of Israel.

....Last week, the Mikdash Educational Center, an Orthodox group, produced a “temple coin” that superimposes an image of Mr.Trump over one of Cyrus.


....When, in 1953, former president Harry
Truman was introduced as the man who help establish the State of Israel, he grumbled: “What do you mean, ‘helped create’? I am Cyrus!”

A Freemason at that! From whom was he taking orders to establish the
state of Israel, God or the god of Freemasonry?

****
The speeches of speakers at AIPAC are said to be written by "AIPAC"and it wasn't
any different with Trump's speech, in which he pledged to move
the embassy and recognize Jerusalem. Leaving one to wonder if God had
anything to do with the eventual declaration late last year and the
ensuing jubilation in the evangelical camp.

 

[Serveto]

Oh look! A "Methodist" Skull & Bonesman. I guess, in an era of genetically modified food, one should expect other genetic anomalies: such as, for instance, a carnivorous Christian lamb, with sharp, pointy teeth, on a rampage -correction, crusade- to pacify the Middle East and make it safe for Israeli nuclear hegemony. G.W. no doubt saw, and sees, Gog and Magog at work, given that his father, GHW Bush, reportedly took the name "Magog" during his initiation into the society.

"The name Magog is traditionally assigned to the incoming Bonesman deemed to have had the most sexual experience, and Gog goes to the new member with the least sexual experience. William Howard Taft and Robert Taft were Magogs. So, interestingly, was George {H.W.} Bush."
Alexandra Robbins, The Atlantic​

....Last week, the Mikdash Educational Center, an Orthodox group, produced a “temple coin” that superimposes an image of Mr.Trump over one of Cyrus.

Imagine that: an identification of the Jewish Temple with coins, money and money-changers. I wonder if Sheldon Adelson, that remarkable, exemplary "light unto the nations" and financier of Trump's presidential campaign, will open a casino in the outer Court of the Gentiles.

....When, in 1953, former president Harry Truman

was introduced as the man who help establish the State of Israel, he grumbled: “What do you mean, ‘helped create’? I am Cyrus!”

A Freemason at that! From whom was he taking orders to establish the
state of Israel, God or the god of Freemasonry?

Just what everybody needs, a perfect accessory, for a Middle-Eastern Evangelical tailgate party, cookout and Temple barbecue: an apron with an open eye of Horus, the "regent" of the New Aeon.

 

[Renegade]

....When, in 1953, former president Harry
Truman was introduced as the man who help establish the State of Israel, he grumbled: “What do you mean, ‘helped create’? I am Cyrus!”

Just for fun as this never gets mentioned...


One Russian diplomat said of Trumans Israel policy ..
"Truman's efforts to carry out his own policy in the Eastern Mediterranean, have proved to be timid, ill-timed and unsuccessful.Truman is not distinguished by far-sightedness, nor by a statesman's breadth of view.His actions reflect the habits of a minor civil servant, who is used to counting the change left over in the morning for fear that the cook might have cheated him, but who has happened to land in a high position without losing any of his habits."

It was Andrei Gromyko, at the UN, asserted the right of "the Jews of the whole world to the creation of a state of their own" not America...

Tel Aviv 1949...

Stalin not only helped create Israel he also armed them and trained their air force through Czechoslovakia..
While Truman maintained an arms embargo..
If anyone was a Cyrus figure it was Stalin..

Who pulled his strings..?

 

[Karlysymon]

‘This Lines Up With Scripture’: Michele Bachmann’s Warnings About Biblical End-Times ‘Invasion’ and ‘Global Government’

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

‘This Lines Up With Scripture’: Michele Bachmann’s Warnings About Biblical End-Times ‘Invasion’ and ‘Global Government’

The scary thing is...

It does!

 

[Karlysymon]

How Can Western Christians
Support Both Israel and Middle East Christians?

 

[Dale]

Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. It is a political movement, nothing more.
Many Christian Zionists are part of a fake Christian cult - The New Apostolic Reformation which promotes the non-Biblical 7 mountains theology. Some such as Christian Zionist John Hagee have publicly said that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Genesis 12:1-3 does not say anything specifically about Jews or Israel. Neither existed at that time.

Genesis 12

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Hebrew for nation is goi or gowy, the basic general Hebrew term for an ethnicity, lineage or nation. The term goi s used more in Genesis and the earlier sections than later.

Micah 4:2
And many nations (Hebrew word GOY) shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

In these cases Goy, Goi etc. is a term used by a Jew to refer to someone who is not Jewish or a term used by an observant Jew to refer to a Jew who is not religious or is ignorant of Judaism. It can also refer to "all" (Jew, non-Jew etc).

And of course, I think everybody knows that the term "seed" in Genesis 12:7 is singular and refers to Jesus Christ, Yeshua.

Galatians 3
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

the New Apostolic Reformation: https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/tag/new-apostolic-reformation/page/1
Also, you can research

 

[Karlysymon]

According to the contemporary definition of the term, your lord and savior, Jesus Christ, was quite the "anti-Semite" which is why those very same Pharisees "lobbied" the Roman Governor of Judea to torture and crucify him.
How's that for irony?!

 

[Awoken2]

A "Christian Zionist" sounds an awful like an oxymoron.

Thou shall not kill.....unless your Palestinian.

....I've heard enough already thanks

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

"The size and power of the Christian Zionist hordes (aka Evangelicals and Baptists) are no secret to anyone who understands anything about American politics. What is not commonly understood, even among these crazies, is how exactly they got to be so ziotarded in the first place."

Matthew 10

Comfort in Persecution

(2 Timothy 1:6-12)

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

[Karlysymon]

@Red Sky at Morning, come on now,

You know the movement is formidable but help me out here. How would you, as an ardent Christian supporter of Greater Israel , explain to a Palestinian christian that they have to kiss their home goodbye because Israel has to have land on both sides of the Jordan. And you know full well it will happen. Just like Victoria said, they will all have to leave or be killed.

 

[Bacsi]

@DesertRose

Ok - it's worth considering the claims made here... This is what James Perloff believes "Christian Zionists" hold to, based on the link you posted:

https://jamesperloff.com/2016/08/31/the-war-on-christianity-part-ii-the-abomination-and-blasphemy-of-christian-zionism/

• God wanted the Jews to return to, and take over, Palestine.
• Godhas two plans of salvation—one through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the other a guarantee reserved for Jews, his “Chosen People.”
• Christians should not involve themselves in politics, education, business or the arts, as these are “worldly” matters that should be left in the hands of “worldly” people. (The consequences of this doctrine are very visible in American culture today.)
• God deals with mankind differently during different historical time frames or “dispensations,” of which there are seven. The current one, “Grace” under Jesus Christ, is merely the sixth of the seven dispensations.
• The Christian Church is doomed to inevitable failure, which will bring the Dispensation of Grace to a close.
• The end of this dispensational age will be marked by the Tribulation—worldwide persecution under the Antichrist for a period of seven years; however, Christians need not concern themselves with this, since Jesus will “Rapture” believers off the Earth and they won’t be around to experience it.
• Earth will then experience a Jewish era; Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifices will be reinstituted; Jesus will reign for a thousand years from Solomon’s rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

I have benefitted in my understanding of the Islamic perspective of prophecy you have provided in the "Prophetic Expectations" thread. The issue I want to draw out if anyone is interested...

Based on the supposed position of Christian Zionists set out above, to what degree does this characterisation represent the straightforward reading of the Bible or accurately reflect the beliefs of those others would label as "Christian Zionists".

Limited thinking... It's pretty awful. This kind of mind programming is bound to bring about terrible results.

 

[Forever Light]

On 26th June, 1950, the following letter was addressed to the Chief Rabbi of Britain:

Dear Sir,

May I ask for replies to the following questions:

1. Do the Jews, as generally known, represent the whole twelve tribes of Israel?

2. Does the State of Israel in Palestine constitute a union of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms as a united Israel?

Yours faithfully, C.H.L.I.


The following reply was received a few days later, being the official opinion of the Chief Rabbi.

Dear Sir,

I refer to your letter of the 26th ult. The Jews of today do not represent the whole of the twelve tribes. What happened to the ten tribes who occupied Northern Palestine in Bible times is not definitely known. Various theories have been propounded. Modern Jewry is considered as being descended from the ancient tribe of Judah, and to a lesser extent, the tribe of Benjamin.

Yours truly,

Signed J. H. Taylor, Sec.


Since Modern Jewry is therefore officially acknowledged in this way to have descended from (only) a remnant of 2 of the original 12 Tribes of Israel (and the Bible confirms it). The question almost no-one seems to be asking anymore, is, this being the case, what then happened to the rest of Israel - the remaining Ten Tribes (that are Israelites but who are not Jewish) and who therefore make up the vast majority of Modern Israel?

In Bible prophecy, there are separate prophecies given specifically for "The House of Israel" (10 Tribes Israel) and other prophecies for "The House of Judah" (2 Tribed house of Judah/Jewdah - i.e. the Jews).

Modern Jewry is NOT synonymous with Modern Israel.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

As far as "Zionism" is concerned, I think the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5 is very wise...

"38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

I listened to Isaiah and Jeremiah decorating the lounge over the weekend. A great (but lengthy!) exercise in getting a feel for how God might view things. Where things seem to go wrong with Zionism is when Jews who reject the NT confuse the Millennial promises with things that they themselves will accomplish with the help of the "Messiah" (not accepting that he has already come).

As a result, the Messiah they will embrace in their rejection of Jesus will be the Antichrist. It is clear from my reading that God will at some point draw history to a decision point, both for the Jews and the nations of the World.

At that point, the question of all questions, and the one that occupies this forum so much - "Who do YOU say that I am?" becomes the most important thing of all.

@Karlysymon - I posted the above up in January and I still stand by it. ^^

Some perverse folk may create a narrative where Christ rejecting Israel heads right into some "Messianic Age", somehow taking hold of some notional birthright by force and avoiding the "Time of Jacob's Trouble".

E.g:

This understanding has nothing to do with a Biblical understanding of the rather complex picture of what will happen. Due to that complexity, it is easy to fall into error on the side of wholehearted support for everything the State of Israel currently does or believes. It is also perhaps far more common to fall into the opposite errors so popular on conspiracy forums these days ;-)