Christian Universalism - Good News or Bad Doctrine?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You shall know them by their fruits...

Have any of you ever met a Christian Universalist? Been to one of their churches? They are typically the most amazing, kind, loving people living the message of the Bible everyday. Their fruits are enough for me.

You give god far less credit then he deserves becauze you need to believe your special and better than other people.. That’s your problem. Not gods.

You see 20/20 here.

Gnostic Christians have tied righteousness in god to equality for all souls.

Regards
DL

 

[Hon33]

S

I said Idk...I don’t know. It doesn’t seem that he was enlightened...and like I said he couldn’t be made a partaker if the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit didn’t come until after Jesus died and he wasn’t around the upper room where it happened. So I guess that probably tells the story that he wasn’t saved.

I have salvation...but my faith is a progress.



No, isn’t that life? We are saved but we always have temptations to sin...didn’t Paul talk about doing what he didn’t want to do in the struggle with sin? Because you can’t keep sinning like you used to do after believing, right?




I’m not assuming, the Bible says the one fallen away used to have faith. I don’t think that Judas is an example of this because he did have a different role to play in the story. He’s more of a wild in sheep’s clothing character.



He didn’t but I think he was scared he did...even Peter knows it’s a possibility.


No doubt you will and you need to keep on the alert so you’re not deceived. Why would we be warned about deception if there isn’t the very real possibility of falling away from the faith through it? Why warn at all if your future is secure no matter what?

Yep, people back slide...maybe they would be less inclined if they thought that they could fall away front he faith one of those times? We are told to fear the Lord but Christians look at that as something other than maybe actually fearing God? They say have awe for God but what if it is to fear Him and His nightly power. Yep, He loves us enough to save us...but He still is to be feared if the OT is still part of the Bible. The Israelites are us aren’t they and look how God has dealt with them? We are lucky God sent us His Holy Spirit who helps us...but isn’t it just as easy to talk ourselves out of obeying His Spirit?

I don’t put any emphasis on saving myself..I can’t save myself but I must believe in Jesus to be saved right? If I stop believing in Jesus...will I still be saved? Since it’s belief that started my salvation in the first place, don’t I have to believe a certain way too? That Jesus is God the Son, that He took the punishment for my sins? If I get the message wrong than am I saved?

But we are ignoring the scripture that put all this in my mind anyway...The Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith. Without that scripture and others in Hebrews..I wouldn’t have thought so either.

Why do you say the Holy Spirit didn’t exist until after Jesus’ death?

 

[Hon33]

Tell us, Satan's spawn, if you were god, would you settle for being the loser you see who cannot create savable souls, or would you only settle for success in creating all souls as savable and saved?

You’re rather missing the point, don’t you think?

 

[JoChris]

You’re rather missing the point, don’t you think?

It is deliberate. He has trolled many different forums over many different years with the same predictable responses.

A very simple search on Google is all it takes to see much time he spends attempting to spread his hatred of the true Christian God: "gnostic christian bishop" forum.

I predict from this entry of mine Gnostic Anti-theist monk will accuse me of being a fan.
There needs to be a ROFL symbol. A grin is not enough.

 

[Todd]

I am sorry, I don't want to derail the thread but what do you mean by saying that "Aionion/ αιώνιον" does not mean eternal? I am partly Greek myself and I know Ancient Greek too, so I can assure you that it's exactly what that means.

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

Printed in 1875, this book written by John Wesley Hanson offers a thorough examination the meaning of the Greek word AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS, translated Everlasting -- Eternal, proving it denotes Limited Duration.

christianheretic.com

 

[floss]

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

Printed in 1875, this book written by John Wesley Hanson offers a thorough examination the meaning of the Greek word AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS, translated Everlasting -- Eternal, proving it denotes Limited Duration.

christianheretic.com

christianheretic.com --- at least you're being honest

 

[Todd]

christianheretic.com --- at least you're being honest

For someone who understands the definition of heretic, on a conspiracy website It should be considered a compliment.

 

[floss]

For someone who understands the definition of heretic, on a conspiracy website It should be considered a compliment.

It was a compliment that you were honest about being a heretic. It's obvious you're the 1% enlightened Christian

 

[Lisa]

Why do you say the Holy Spirit didn’t exist until after Jesus’ death?

I said He didn’t come, not He didn’t exist..

John‬ ‭16:7‬ ‭
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

What is your definition of enlightened?

Spiritual knowledge. Did Judas have it or was he just happy to steal from them and look like he’s part of the group?

I agreed with scriptures there will be a fallen away. However, scriptures never said they were once saved. You assumed that just because they are a partaker of the Holy Spirit.

They are fallen away from the faith. What faith do you think God is talking about? Islam? It’s obvious they fall away from the Christian faith. The only people who can become partakers of the Holy Spirit are Christians..unless you think non Christians can also partake of the Holy Spirit?

That's exactly the unconditional love of God, He WILL have you no matter what as long as you're His. It's definitely Biblical. If your child disowned you, is he/she stopped being your child?

God does not love unconditionally. If He did it wouldn’t matter what we do..but it does matter what we do doesn’t it? It matters that we believe in Jesus to be saved. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus...those who don’t believe will be thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Doesn’t sound unconditional to me. If you fall away..it is impossible to renew you again to repentance. That’s surely isn’t unconditional love.

My parents did disown me and we were estranged for years because of it. Was I still their child when I didn’t feel loved by them or cared about by them for 16 years? We did reconcile to some extent but it has forever changed our relationship.

You can keep providing verses but that doesn’t really solve the problem of the verses that say some will fall away from the faith and the verses in Hebrews 6 that talk about falling away and the penalty. It doesn’t erase them or their meaning. Clearly people will fall away from the Christian faith and when they do...they will forfeit salvation. There is no verse you have provided that said that those verses are to be ignored, don’t count or other verses trump them.

There are a lot of reason to fear God, but definitely not fear of losing salvation because it's impossible.

Not only is it not impossible it’s a fact..the Bible clearly tells us it’s true.

Name someone in the Bible you think lost their salvation.

It doesn’t matter...what matters is there are verses stating that you can.

 

[floss]

Spiritual knowledge. Did Judas have it or was he just happy to steal from them and look like he’s part of the group?

Judas doesn't have any spiritual knowledge (of Jesus)? He saw all the miracles Jesus performed so I'm sure he's had some spiritual knowledge. It's reaching to say Judas had zero spiritual knowledge. Judas is a Pastor.

They are fallen away from the faith. What faith do you think God is talking about? Islam? It’s obvious they fall away from the Christian faith. The only people who can become partakers of the Holy Spirit are Christians..unless you think non Christians can also partake of the Holy Spirit?

Once again, you're assuming those Christian that fell away were once saved. And you're assuming un-saved Christian cannot be partaker of the Holy Spirit. If Todd converted to Islam, do you think he was once saved, fell away and lost his salvation?

Big Question: Can one be unsaved and NOT fall away?

God does not love unconditionally. If He did it wouldn’t matter what we do..but it does matter what we do doesn’t it? It matters that we believe in Jesus to be saved. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus...those who don’t believe will be thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Doesn’t sound unconditional to me. If you fall away..it is impossible to renew you again to repentance. That’s surely isn’t unconditional love.

You forgot the part that I said "as long as you're His". You HAVE to be born again to receive His unconditional love that he will never leave you nor forsake you. Those that don't believe, did they ever come to the Father through Jesus? Those that are thrown in the lake of fire, were they ever His?

My parents did disown me and we were estranged for years because of it. Was I still their child when I didn’t feel loved by them or cared about by them for 16 years? We did reconcile to some extent but it has forever changed our relationship.

It doesn't change the FACT that they're still your parent and you their child.

You can keep providing verses but that doesn’t really solve the problem of the verses that say some will fall away from the faith and the verses in Hebrews 6 that talk about falling away and the penalty. It doesn’t erase them or their meaning. Clearly people will fall away from the Christian faith and when they do...they will forfeit salvation. There is no verse you have provided that said that those verses are to be ignored, don’t count or other verses trump them.

then all Christians must be saved this moment, even Catholics

 

[Lisa]

@floss
No, I don’t believe he was saved, but a wolf in sheep’s clothing meant for a different purpose.. he never seemed to really care about what Jesus was all about.

I’m not assuming, the verse says they will fall away from the faith. You never did answer what faith you thought God was talking about there.
Who is an un saved Christian..isn‘t that an oxymoron? You aren’t saved..you’re not a Christian.
I already think from what Todd has said..remember I can only go off what he says about himself..that he fell away from the true faith.

We can keep going round and round about this..but there are verses that point blank say you can fall away from the faith and if you do you can’t be redeemed from that. I don’t know what else to tell ya Floss. No matter what verse you throw at those verses to try to prove otherwise..doesn’t erase what they say.

Catholics aren’t Christians..I thought you knew that.

 

[Lisa]

@floss

2.) Falling away....The Bible tells us falling away is a possibility for those in the faith...Jesus, Peter, Paul and the writer of Hebrews knew of it.

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."


1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

2 Peter 3:14-18‬ ‭
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
‭‭2 Peter 3:14-18‬ ‭

Hebrews 2:1‬-3
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. “For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
‭
Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

4.) What happens to those who fall away....because there is a punishment for falling away.

2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​

 

[floss]

@floss
You never did answer what faith you thought God was talking about there.

Christian faith of course

Who is an un saved Christian..isn‘t that an oxymoron? You aren’t saved..you’re not a Christian.

If you can't see there are many un-saved Christians...

you go tell these ^ people they are not Christians

Catholics aren’t Christians..I thought you knew that.

the world doesn't know that. you have to zoom out a bit, try ask muslims here

at this point I will have to agree to disagree. Godbless

 

[Lisa]

Christian faith of course

Yes, people will fall away from the Christian faith.

If you can't see there are many un-saved Christians...

you go tell these ^ people they are not Christians

They are not unsaved Christians...just unsaved.

the world doesn't know that. you have to zoom out a bit, try ask muslims here

I totally know that the world has decided to view catholicism as Christianity..even Christians have a hard time not including them.

Maybe you can agree to disagree..but you’re wrong about osas.

 

[Wigi]

The belief that a loving, merciful and forgiving God would cause any of his creation to suffer eternal torment, when he clearly states the wages of sin is death is insanity

So it means nobody needs repentance?
Because if people can expect that God will fix everything and everyone will avoid judgment despite my refusal to consider God throughout my life, I don't know why anyone should risk their lives, accept persecution or sacrifice anything because all this is now clearly useless.
In fact it becomes a good enough explanation to be/stay lukewarm and pray occasionally (when I'm sick).

I was hesitant but now I think I disagree with Universal Reconciliation because it's like asking me that I should return back to my past life since it doesn't matter if I ignore God as I will find reconciliation anyways.

 

[Todd]

So it means nobody needs repentance?

Of course not...we all need repentance. It just claims that the opportunity for repentance does not expire at the end of this temporal life we presently are living.

Because if people can expect that God will fix everything and everyone will avoid judgment despite my refusal to consider God throughout my life, I don't know why anyone should risk their lives, accept persecution or sacrifice anything because all this is now clearly useless.
In fact it becomes a good enough explanation to be/stay lukewarm and pray occasionally (when I'm sick).

I was hesitant but now I think I disagree with Universal Reconciliation because it's like asking me that I should return back to my past life since it doesn't matter if I ignore God as I will find reconciliation anyways.

So you are admitting that your only motivation to live a godly "christian" life is to avoid hell? Do you not think there is any advantage or blessings to living the current life according to God's way? Is not living according to the way God intended because we love him, not a good enough reason to do it?

There are still blessing and rewards for those who believe in this lifetime. Unbelievers while still eventually being reconciled with God, will not have the blessing of being part of the body of Christ, either in this age or the ages to come.

You are also implying that your actions in this lifetime someone have a part in saving your soul. I thought orthodox Christianity teaches that we can do nothing to earn our salvation and it is a free gift? Some just won't accept the gift in this age and will in ages to come.

 

[Wigi]

It just claims that the opportunity for repentance does not expire at the end of this temporal life we presently are living.

I would like to agree but how does that fit with :

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"
Hebrews 9:27


"of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
Hebrews 6:2

So you are admitting that your only motivation to live a godly "christian" life is to avoid hell? Do you not think there is any advantage or blessings to living the current life according to God's way? Is not living according to the way God intended because we love him, not a good enough reason to do it?

I don't see avoiding hell as a motivation in itself but a necessity when you want to spend your existence with the God you love.
But when someone thinks all that is unimportant and life is worth to be lived without paying attention to God, I don't see how it is relevant to remain faithful no matter what and resist temptations until the end if it doesn't matter anyways.

You are also implying that your actions in this lifetime someone have a part in saving your soul. I thought orthodox Christianity teaches that we can do nothing to earn our salvation and it is a free gift?

Yes but If I don't accept God's gift through repentance, God won't force me to repent which means that i'm condemned according to scriptures :

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:16

In fact now I see why I disagree with Universal Reconciliation :
It nullify God's judgment and suppose it is not eternal.

 

[Todd]

I would like to agree but how does that fit with :

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment"
Hebrews 9:27

Judgement comes after death and after judgement comes punishment. But the punishment has a purpose to sanctify, purify and reconcile.

"of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
Hebrews 6:2

Again, see all the previous posts and links that clearly describe that a literal translation of the word "aeon" or "aionos" to the english equivalent of "eternal" is not accurate. A more accurate translation is "age long judgement" or "judgement of the age"

I don't see avoiding hell as a motivation in itself but a necessity when you want to spend your existence with the God you love.

But you are clearly implying that if you can spend your existence with God either way, that you would choose to not live this life according to God's way? So you are saying that living the Christian life is a burden, when Jesus clearly said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Are you not blessed in your current life by living it according to God?

But when someone thinks all that is unimportant and life is worth to be lived without paying attention to God, I don't see how it is relevant to remain faithful no matter what and resist temptations until the end if it doesn't matter anyways.

Again you are implying that the only benefit of living for God in the present age is to avoid hell. You are clearly implying that living for God in the present, does not have any advantages or blessings.

Yes but If I don't accept God's gift through repentance, God won't force me to repent which means that i'm condemned according to scriptures :

How about faith in God's ability, that when the veil of this temporal world is removed, that God's patience, unending mercy, glory and the demonstration of his love through the sacrfice of Jesus, will be sufficient to draw all men? Jesus said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me."

Are you saying God is not capable of drawing all men? Are you saying Jesus will fail in his mission to be the Savior of all men?

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:16

There is nothing that says that something that is condemned, cannot be rehabilitated or redeemed.

It nullify God's judgment and suppose it is not eternal.

It doesn't nullify God' judgement. Unbelievers will still be subject to the just punishment they deserve. It does however suppose that God's punishment is not eternal...that is the good news! God's mercy endures forever but his wrath and his anger do not.

 

[elsbet]

Almost all christians believe that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

They will bow out of fear or they will bow out of love.

Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was loved. People loved Jesus. It is unimaginable that after having won them over with his love and having so convinced them of his love that they bow before him in submission that he would then turn on them and subject them to eternal conscious torment.

His plan is to redeem and to restore his creation fully. His plans will be fulfilled.

I'm confused... why would He "turn on" anyone who loved Him? That sounds like (false) works based doctrine--> toe the line or yer outta here.