Christian Universalism - Good News or Bad Doctrine?

Does the Bible teach “Universal Reconciliation”?

  • Not sure, let me think about it...

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floss

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I think there are two different thoughts. On is that people can say they are Christian but aren’t and Christians. Was Judas a Christian or one that says he is one? Idk that Judas was one...but he did follow Jesus. Why didn’t Jesus make Judas be one so He can save him? We all know that not everyone will be saved. That is one issue. Another issue is the people who are saved...they can fall away from the faith says the Holy Spirit.
I'll take that as a Yes Judas was once saved and lost his salvation since you didn't want to give me a straight answer. Jesus does not make people become a Christian, they have to make that choice and obviously Judas did not make that choice even after everything he saw Jesus did. Judas was obviously enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partaker of the Holy Spirit and he fell away. The truth is he was NEVER saved, NEVER believe. Which prove that the fallen away aren't the one that was once saved.

John 6:64 King James Version (KJV)
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

IF Judas did not believe from the beginning, was he ever saved? You don't think Jesus can use non-believer for his mission?

Sure..there will be an eternal hell or eternal salvation...however that’s not written in stone until the end....since you can fall away from the faith.
do you have salvation this moment or it's a progress?

Sure, but there is also a teaching that he could choose, right? He knows what’s expected and finds out that more is expected and he couldn’t do it. i don’t think that ends once you’re saved. One is always having to choose to follow God or follow sin. We still have free will.
is this some kind of progressive salvation?

Yes but the Bible says you can lose your salvation in Hebrews. We can fall away from the faith...that seems more certain than once saved always saved.
You're assuming the one fallen away were once saved. As I've pointed out with Judas, perfect example of a fallen one.

I meant the if you deny Him, He denies you. The other is specific to the end times.
Peter denied Jesus, did Peter lose his salvation?

We still have to wrestle against our flesh through this life...so if you stop and don’t want to do that then maybe you fall away?
You will continue to wrestle with sins until your last breath. This flesh body is sin itself. There are back sliding Christians every where, are they all fallen away? Again, God does not look at this Flesh You for your Redemption. He look at the Renewed Spirit You that is Spotless through the Blood of the Lamb for your redemption. I feel like you put too much emphasis on yourself for salvation instead of Jesus. You gotta behave, you gotta be good, you gotta keep the laws, you gotta keep believing...etc, truth is it's all filthy rags. Your salvation is NOT in your hands. It's in God's hand now.
 
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Elehcim

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No - everyone will not be saved.
While there is no question that Christ’s death on the cross was indeed sufficient for the salvation of all, not everyone willl choose to be saved. Anyone who repents and changes their lives accordingly will be saved.
The change in us as a result of surrendering our lives to Christ. Anyone can makes changes yet still not know Christ. Christians too often put the the cart before the horse. The Holy Spirit drives the change as we SURRENDER. Surrender is probably the only credit we can give ourselves.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Get thee behind me, Satan!
As time goes on, and satanists are increasingly coming out of the woodwork, I can’t help feel sorry for them. I also wonder what kind of “spiritual PR” has been employed to make good seem evil, and evil seem good!
 

floss

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As time goes on, and satanists are increasingly coming out of the woodwork, I can’t help feel sorry for them. I also wonder what kind of “spiritual PR” has been employed to make good seem evil, and evil seem good!
Do you think these satanist has a network where they get and push their "spiritual PR"? Indeed sad to see people being exploited and deceived to believe they are on the "winning" team.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Do you think these satanist has a network where they get and push their "spiritual PR"? Indeed sad to see people being exploited and deceived to believe they are on the "winning" team.
You sense the futility of trying to troll God -

It seems to me to be rather like a colour blind person trying to tell people that green does not exist. Hard work!
 

JoChris

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For what it's worth, personally, I don't believe in everlasting punishment either, I'm just simply referring to the correct usage of greek words.
No one WANTS to believe in eternal Hell either.
However what did Jesus say about Hell? What does the Bible say about Hell?

 

JoChris

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Judas lost salvation whether you believe he was saved or not. All unsaved people whether they were once saved or not will lose salvation at the end.

Judas was a believer. When he was chosen as part of the twelve apostles, his heart had been touched by the teachings of Christ. His intentions were good, but he allowed his own opinions to guide him more than the teachings of Jesus. But slowly he began to resist the Holy Spirit because he felt he knew better and he eventually fell away. Judas had grieved or quenched the Holy Spirit continuously. He was not repentant and did not turn to the Lord after he sinned. He allowed Satan in by choice (Luke 22:3) to control his mind until he committed the unpardonable sin of betraying Christ. There was no coming back from that.

Stories of people like Judas, Saul, Balaam, and others are given to us “as examples, and they were written for our admonition” (1 Corinthians 10:11) so that we would not follow in their ways.

Judas used his free will to choose to walk the other way from Christ. If you think after we are saved we have no choice and cannot choose not to be saved you haven't understood God and His Word.
I am curious why you think Judas was a true believer and why his intentions were good.

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. 9Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Jesus called Judas the son of perdition - that shows he was doomed from the very beginning to ETERNAL DAMNATION. Judas was not a mere backslider.
 

rainerann

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I need a fourth option because I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't say it is bad doctrine because this seems to include the implication that the doctrine should conform to the current state of Protestanism or even an older form of it in order to not be considered bad doctrine, and I strongly believe Protestansim is severely oppressed at the present time.

So the problem that I have with the universalism described in the video is that it is basically present day Protestanism that is claiming to basically agree to disagree with other faiths essentially and be more generous with the intention of some verses in scripture.

Technically, the fulfillment of prophecy does represent a sort of universalism.

"No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." Hebrews 8:11

And I strongly oppose the suggestion that the present state of Protestanism is capable of existing as the fullfillment of something like this. So as usual, I pray for everything that is presently hidden to come into the light because this is how we acheive "universalism", in my opinion. Universalism exists where there is nothing hidden.

The church still wears a mask and so this Christian universalism that is being described is something more like a masqurade ball with people from other faiths participating wearing their masks. Everyone is still wearing a mask. Universalism exists in a world without masks.
 

Todd

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Christ Triumphant
or
Universalism Asserted
as the Hope of the Gospel on the Authority
of Reason, the Fathers, and Holy Scripture
by
Thomas Allin

Reprint of the Ninth Edition
"FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST." S. Matt 18:11.
Here the question is simply this, will Jesus Christ do what He has come to do, or will He fail -- as the traditional creed, in spite of all denials, indubitably teaches?? Will He save that which was lost and not some of the lost merely, a totally different thing?? How can "that which was lost" be saved, if any soul be finally lost??
"IN THE REGENERATION." - (PALINGENESIA) S. Matt. xix. 28.
This passage, too often passed over, seems certainly to promise that new creation of all things, in which Christ, Who first made, is one day to remake all things; cf Col. i. 15-20; Heb. i. 2. The thoughtful will notice (see Context) the connection of restoration and judgment.
"ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD." S. Luke iii. 5.
Quoted from ISAIAH ch. xl. 5, "The seeing is twofold, as appears from the sequel (sec ch. lx.). It is (I) the natural sight of Jehovah's glorious deeds on behalf of His people; and (II.) the spiritual recognition of Jehovah as the Lord." - CHEYNE. Surely, then, these words point in the direction of a salvation which shall be quite universal, "for without holiness no man shall see the Lord." - Heb. xii. 14. "The pure in heart shall see God." - S. Matt. v. 8.
"BUT I SAY UNTO YOU LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, DO GOOD TO THEM WHICH HATE YOU * * AND YOU SHALL BE THE CHILDREN OF THE HIGHEST." S. Luke vi. 27-35.
"But I say, 'LOVE YOUR ENEMIES."' Will the advocates of endless penalty frankly tell us how that can be reconciled with the letter, or the spirit, of this text? Will they explain why God commands us to love our enemies, when He consigns His own enemies to an endless hell; and why He bids us to do good to those who hate us, when He means for ever to punish and do evil to those who hate Him?
"BUT WHEN A STRONGER THAN HE SHALL COME UPON HIM AND OVERCOME HIM, HE TAKES FROM HIM ALL HIS ARMOR, WHEREIN HE TRUSTED AND DIVIDES HIS SPOILS." S. Luke xi. 22; S. Matt. xii. 29.
Here it is asserted (a) that Christ is stronger than Satan, (b) that Christ will overcome Satan, (c) will take from him all his armor, (d) will divide, i.e., take away his spoils. Each of these statements contradicts the popular creed, for that teaches (a) that evil is stronger than good, (b) that it Overcomes good in numberless cases, (c) that Satan's power for evil is not taken away, but lasts for ever, (d) that his spoils - the souls he has captured - are not divided, i.e., taken from him. And observe our Lord's victory over the powers of evil does not consist in shutting up any of their captives in hell, but in liberating all.
"WHAT MAN OF YOU HAVING AN HUNDRED SHEEP * * IF HE LOSE ONE OF THEM, DOES NOT LEAVE THE NINETY AND NINE * * AND GO AFTER THAT WHICH IS LOST UNTIL HE FIND IT ?" S. Luke xv. 4.
Antient commentators follow two main lines, (I.) the hundred sheep are all men; (II.) are all spiritual creatures: in the former case the wicked are the strayed sheep: in the latter mankind itself, which by the Fall has strayed from the heavenly fold. Both views seem to involve Universalism. For in the one all the wicked, in the other all humanity, are sought till they are found. Any narrowing of the "sheep" to the elect, is quite alien from the whole spirit of this parable, which was specially addressed to the publican and the sinner. See how broadly Christ bases His argument, "what man of you," He asks, "would not do this ?" Observe the immense significance of Christ's teaching. It expressly sanctions the right to argue from those feelings of humanity, shared even by the outcast and sinful, to the divine feelings. (pp. II, 14-6.) Note, too, the ground taken - the divine loss. It is not the man who loses his soul, it is God who loses the man; (a fact ignored - with much else - in popular teaching.)
"WHAT WOMAN, HAVING TEN PIECES OF SILVER, IF SHE LOSE ONE PIECE, DOES NOT SEEK DILIGENTLY TILL SHE FINDS IT?" S. Luke xv. 8.
Here is precisely the same broad human basis, and the same broad hopeful teaching. Keep steadily in view these facts taught here: (I.) - Our own feelings of love and pity are a safe guide to God's feelings; on these very feelings Christ expressly builds, asking, "what man of you ?" (II.) - Every lost soul is God's loss, Who, therefore, seeks its recovery; and (III.) - will seek till He find it. (IV.) - The whole of the loss is repaired. (V.) If God feel the loss of man, He will always feel it. Hence, if sin be endless, the divine Passion must surely be endless too.
"FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST." S. Luke xix. 10.
If so, I gather from His own parables, and His essential nature, that so long as anything is lost, Jesus Christ will go on seeking and saving; for is He not always the same? (Heb. xiii. 8.) "'the lost" are His charge, and not some of the lost, a very different thing. Or are we to read this verse thus: "He came indeed to save 'the lost '-but those in the fullest sense 'lost' He will never save ?"
"THE SAME CAME * * THAT ALL MEN THROUGH HIM (CHRIST) MIGHT BELIEVE." S. John i. 7.
Yes, that all men might believe, that is indeed the divine purpose - the purpose of Him Who sent the Baptist. But dare we say, that what God purposes, He will fail to do? I read distinctly of the immutability of His counsel (Heb. vi. 17). Am I to believe that the immutable purpose of the Almighty and unchanging God shall finally come to nothing?
"BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD, WHICH TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD." S. John i. 29.
Here is the extent of the work of Christ set forth. It is the world's sin, and not less, that He takes away. But, if it is taken away, how can there be an endless hell for its punishment? Is all this playing with words? Are we, then, to assert of Christ, "Behold the Lamb of God Who tries to take away the sin of the world but fails ?"
"FOR GOD SENT HIS SON * * THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED." S. John iii. 17.
Our opponents say, that God's purpose will fail. He, on the contrary, assures us by His Prophet, that His word shall not return unto Him void, but shall accomplish His pleasure.
"THE FATHER LOVES THE SON, AND HAS GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO HIS HAND." S. John iii. 35.
The relevance of this is obvious, for "all that which the Father gives Me," says Christ, "shall come unto Me," ch. vi. 37. This is one of the large group of passages showing the absolute universality of Christ's kingdom; compare ch. xiii. 3, and see the connection of the gift of all things to Christ and His atoning death. Also see S. Matt. xi. 27, where, just before the well-known appeal, "come unto Me," Jesus has been saying that all things were delivered unto Him by His Father; a connection surely suggestive. Read, too, S. Mat!. xxviii. i8, and note the connection between all power given to Christ, and His claim over all nations. So, too, in Heb. ii. 8-9, the connection is significant between the gift of all things to Jesus Christ, and His tasting death for every man. As He creates all things (actually) so He redeems and restores all things (actually, not potentially); God has given to Him all things; and all things given to Him shall come to Him.
"THE CHRIST, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." S. John iv. 42.
Christ is here called the Savior of the world. The larger hope simply pleads, that Christ will, in fact, save the world.
"(HE) WHICH GIVES LIFE UNTO THE WORLD" S John vi. 33.
The world (cosmos) is in Scripture the ungodly mass. It is contrasted with the inner circle of the faithful, the elect. But this world is over and over again claimed by Christ. He gives life to it, and His gifts are "without repentance."
"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME SHALL COME TO ME; * * AND THIS IS THE FATHER'S WILL * * THAT OF ALL WHICH HE HAS GIVEN ME * * I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING." S. John vi. 37-9.
We have seen that God the Father has given to Christ, not some things, but all things; and here we have the promise of Jesus Christ, that all that has been given to Him shall come to Him, and that nothing shall be lost (S. Jno. vi. 12).
"MY FLESH, WHICH I WILL GIVE FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD." S. John vi. 51.
Again, it is the world for whose life Christ is to give His flesh. Can He give in vain? His gifts are "without repentance," i.e., must be finally effective, though they may be resisted.
"THEN SPOKE JESUS * * I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD." S. John viii. 12.
Here, too, the world is that of which Christ is the Light as well as the Life.
"AND I, IF I BE LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME." S. John xii. 32.
The plainest comment is the best. A partial drawing, i.e., a partial salvation makes His words untrue. What our Lord does say is, in the consciousness of power, and using the term applied to the Father's constraining grace, ch. Vi. 44, is I will (actually) draw all men. He does not say, or imply, I will try to draw, and fail. One reads the comments of good men on this passage, with a feeling akin to despair, as they attempt to make Jesus Christ say that which He did not say, and not say that which He did say. What He does say is exactly given in the following lines:
So shall I lift up in My pierced hands
Beyond the reach of grief and guilt
The whole creation. - E. S. Browning
"FOR I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD." S. John xii. 47.

This is as distinct a statement of Christ's purpose as is possible; its force can only be evaded by asserting that Christ would fail to accomplish that very thing which He came to do: and this assertion must be made in the teeth of those explicit passages, which declare the completeness of His triumph.
"JESUS, KNOWING THAT THE FATHER HAD GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS." S. John xiii. 3.
These words carry us to the very eve of the Passion. "Knowing that His hour was come," v. 1, Jesus knows, too, that all things have been given into His hands (See ch. iii. 35; xvii 2; S. .Matt. xxviii. 18; xi. 27; Eph. i. 22). Such knowledge at such an hour is deeply significant. As the Cross draws near, there comes to cheer Him the knowledge that to Him have been given all things, i.e., an assurance of absolute victory.
"AS YOU GAVE HIM AUTHORITY OVER ALL FLESH. THAT WHATSOEVER YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM, TO THEM HE SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE." S. John xvii. 2.
Even the revised version fails to bring out with clearness the central fact, that eternal life has been given to all flesh by Christ. Literally the original runs: "You gave to Him authority over all flesh, in order that (as to) ALL which You have given to Him, to them (i.e., to all), He should give eternal life." The Greek is clear; but our versions fail, in not repeating the emphatic all (repeated in the original), which involves the gift (not the offer) of eternal life to ALL by Christ - thus obscuring the meaning. It is necessary to remark, if we would understand S. JOHN'S teaching, the emphasis laid on the divine SOVEREIGNTY in Redemption, a sovereignty which is love. - (Our recoil from Calvinism has blinded most readers to this truth which pervades all Holy Scripture). Thus the Father disposes all things, and gives all things to Christ, ch. xiii. 3; iii. 35; xvii. 2 (S. Matt. xxviii 18). At the very hour appointed, ch. xvii. 1; ii. 4; xii. 23; xii. 1; each part of the great work is accomplished.
"IT IS FINISHED." S. John xix. 30; (cfr,. xvii. 4.)
What is finished? the pain - the Cross? It is inconceivable that such a Speaker, at such an hour, should mean less than this, viz.; ALL is finished in all its extent. The Great End and Goal is now attained - attained in all its length, and breadth and height. In no respect can that Purpose of salvation fail, which embraces all humanity; for - though the very opposite may seem true - IT is FINISHED.
"AND HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS; AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." 1 S. John ii. 2.
* It is well to remember this, when we are gravely told that "Omnipotence itself cannot save obstinate sinners." Now, in the matter of salvation we have an express assertion that even the camel can go through the needle's eye; for with God "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE."

Notice here the world contrasted with the true disciples; and yet the propitiation is not to be confined to the few, it is for all. S. JOHN'S anxiety is to assert this for all. Here, as so often, the narrower and wider purposes of salvation are both mentioned: the narrower not excluding, as in the popular view, but including and implying the wider; a truth of the deepest importance.
"HE WAS MANIFESTED TO TAKE AWAY SINS." 1 S. John iii. 5.
This should he compared with S. John i. 29. There Christ takes away the sin - regarded as one vast whole - of all humanity: here the sins, i.e., the individual sins of men.
"THE SON OF GOD WAS MANIFESTED THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL." 1 S. John iii. 8.
The very purpose of the manifestation of God's Son is here stated to be the sweeping away of Satan's works. How then can this possibly be true, while pain and sin endure for ever? No ideas can be more exactly opposed than the permanence of evil, and yet the destruction of the works of the devil. Is sin, and all that sin involves, the work of the devil? Yes, or No? You cannot answer in the negative, if you accept the standpoint of Scripture. But, if the affirmative be true, then all hell and sin and sorrow are to be swept away.
"THE FATHER SENT THE SON TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." 1 S. John iv. 14.
Does it not savor of mockery to say that the Father sent the Son to destroy evil, and to save the world, and that the Son is victorious; and yet that neither shall evil be destroyed or the world saved?
"FEAR NOT * * I HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND DEATH." Rev. i. 18.
Significant words; doubly significant when we remember that Christ had just used these keys to open the prison doors, in His Descent into Hades. How, if so, can death (the second, or any death) sever from Jesus Christ (Who holds the keys) - from His power to save?
"AND EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, * * HEARD I SAYING UNTO HIM THAT SITS ON THE THRONE, AND UNTO THE LAMB, BLESSINGS," &c. Rev. v. 13.
These words embrace every created thing - on the earth, and under the earth, and in the sea. All are represented as swelling the chorus of praise to God, and to the Lamb. Yes, to such an end we trust and hope that all Creation is indeed coming, because we believe God's distinct promise, that all things shall be made new. How else could all things join in this glorious chorus? Compare notes on Eph. i. 10; Phil. ii. 11.
"DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE" Rev. xx. 14.
"The sense of the whole seems to be that at the final consummation of all things, all evil, physical and moral, will be abolished." - Bishop WARBURTON.
"BEHOLD * * I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW." Rev. xxi. 5.
This is the same glorious hope, not for some, but for all; no less than all things are to be made new.
"I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END." Rev. xxi. 5; (i. 8; xxii. 13).
A thoughtful reader will note that this claims for God a position, which negatives a final dualism: as He was the Source, so He is the Goal of all things. God is the TERMINUS of Creation; the Stream shall return to its Source. The unconscious dualism of current theology is a barrier to any true apprehension of the thought of the Apostle, which seems to be the same as that S. PAUL expresses in Rom. xi. 36.
"AND THE LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. AND THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE" Rev. xxii. 2-3.
Here is a striking hint - as to a future restoration; a hint that the nations are one day, in a future age, to be healed, for all this is subsequent to the passing away of the present earth, heaven (ch. xxi. r). And as a result of this healing, there shall be no more curse - no pain - no tears - but all things made new
"THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS." Acts iii. 21.
All things are to be restored; (apokatastasis, i.e., complete restoration), and this is said to be the meaning of the work of Christ, the meaning of the promise to ABRAHAM, of the Jewish covenant (v. 25). 'this God has spoken by all "the prophets since the world began," and this is what the larger hope teaches.
"AND HAVE HOPE THAT THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION * * BOTH OF THE JUST AND THE UNJUST." Acts xxiv. 15.
Note these words. Could S. PAUL have hoped for a resurrection of the unjust if that meant hopeless punishment to them? "Who is so great a fool," asks a famous Father, "as to think so great a boon as the Resurrection can be, to those that rise, an occasion of endless torment ?"
[\quote]
 

phipps

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I am curious why you think Judas was a true believer and why his intentions were good.

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. 9Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Jesus called Judas the son of perdition - that shows he was doomed from the very beginning to ETERNAL DAMNATION. Judas was not a mere backslider.
I explained why Judas was a believer. I know all the scripture you've posted about him and I'm not denying them. He was a believer but slowly he let his sins get the better of him. He rejected the Holy Spirit over and over. It was his choice not to listen and act on the truth of God's Word. Judas was not doomed from the beginning. He chose to be doomed.

There is no predestination in the Bible. God does not create people who are destined to be damned or saved. That would mean non of God's intelligent creatures really have freedom of choice. It means God is discriminatory and gives grace to some while denying it to others. It means no matter what choices we make, it would have no impact on God's decision. This is not what the Bible teaches at all.
 
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Get thee behind me, Satan!





Tell us, Satan's spawn, if you were god, would you settle for being the loser you see who cannot create savable souls, or would you only settle for success in creating all souls as savable and saved?

You have a loser of a god while mine saves us all, as we are all created as god creates. Perfect. You just stupidly do not see it as Jesus predicted.

Keep your genocidal and infanticidal god though. You deserve him given your lack of a moral sense and knowledge of god.

Regards
DL
 
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As time goes on, and satanists are increasingly coming out of the woodwork, I can’t help feel sorry for them. I also wonder what kind of “spiritual PR” has been employed to make good seem evil, and evil seem good!
I have wanted to investigate that issue myself. Care to engage?

Start by telling us how you can see good in genocide and infanticide. Those are traits you see as good in your genocidal god. Right?

Tell us why it is good for a god who can cure all to kill so many.

Regards
DL
 

Lisa

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I'll take that as a Yes Judas was once saved and lost his salvation since you didn't want to give me a straight answer. Jesus does not make people become a Christian, they have to make that choice and obviously Judas did not make that choice even after everything he saw Jesus did. Judas was obviously enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partaker of the Holy Spirit and he fell away. The truth is he was NEVER saved, NEVER believe. Which prove that the fallen away aren't the one that was once saved.

John 6:64 King James Version (KJV)
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

IF Judas did not believe from the beginning, was he ever saved? You don't think Jesus can use non-believer for his mission?
I said Idk...I don’t know. It doesn’t seem that he was enlightened...and like I said he couldn’t be made a partaker if the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit didn’t come until after Jesus died and he wasn’t around the upper room where it happened. So I guess that probably tells the story that he wasn’t saved.
do you have salvation this moment or it's a progress?
I have salvation...but my faith is a progress.


is this some kind of progressive salvation?
No, isn’t that life? We are saved but we always have temptations to sin...didn’t Paul talk about doing what he didn’t want to do in the struggle with sin? Because you can’t keep sinning like you used to do after believing, right?



You're assuming the one fallen away were once saved. As I've pointed out with Judas, perfect example of a fallen one.
I’m not assuming, the Bible says the one fallen away used to have faith. I don’t think that Judas is an example of this because he did have a different role to play in the story. He’s more of a wild in sheep’s clothing character.


Peter denied Jesus, did Peter lose his salvation?
He didn’t but I think he was scared he did...even Peter knows it’s a possibility.

You will continue to wrestle with sins until your last breath. This flesh body is sin itself. There are back sliding Christians every where, are they all fallen away? Again, God does not look at this Flesh You for your Redemption. He look at the Renewed Spirit You that is Spotless through the Blood of the Lamb for your redemption. I feel like you put too much emphasis on yourself for salvation instead of Jesus. You gotta behave, you gotta be good, you gotta keep the laws, you gotta keep believing...etc, truth is it's all filthy rags. Your salvation is NOT in your hands. It's in God's hand now.
No doubt you will and you need to keep on the alert so you’re not deceived. Why would we be warned about deception if there isn’t the very real possibility of falling away from the faith through it? Why warn at all if your future is secure no matter what?

Yep, people back slide...maybe they would be less inclined if they thought that they could fall away front he faith one of those times? We are told to fear the Lord but Christians look at that as something other than maybe actually fearing God? They say have awe for God but what if it is to fear Him and His nightly power. Yep, He loves us enough to save us...but He still is to be feared if the OT is still part of the Bible. The Israelites are us aren’t they and look how God has dealt with them? We are lucky God sent us His Holy Spirit who helps us...but isn’t it just as easy to talk ourselves out of obeying His Spirit?

I don’t put any emphasis on saving myself..I can’t save myself but I must believe in Jesus to be saved right? If I stop believing in Jesus...will I still be saved? Since it’s belief that started my salvation in the first place, don’t I have to believe a certain way too? That Jesus is God the Son, that He took the punishment for my sins? If I get the message wrong than am I saved?

But we are ignoring the scripture that put all this in my mind anyway...The Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith. Without that scripture and others in Hebrews..I wouldn’t have thought so either.
 

floss

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I said Idk...I don’t know. It doesn’t seem that he was enlightened...and like I said he couldn’t be made a partaker if the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit didn’t come until after Jesus died and he wasn’t around the upper room where it happened. So I guess that probably tells the story that he wasn’t saved.
what is your definition of enlightened?
so ONLY the people AFTER the "upper room" event can be classified as fallen away? Which mean there are zero fallen away in the OT?

I have salvation...but my faith is a progress.
If your faith is a progress, then you don't have salvation YET. You're working toward your salvation by keeping faith.

I’m not assuming, the Bible says the one fallen away used to have faith. I don’t think that Judas is an example of this because he did have a different role to play in the story. He’s more of a wild in sheep’s clothing character.
the Bible never said the one fallen away used to have faith or were saved...Judas is a perfect example of a fallen away, unless you can give me your example of someone in the Bible that had fell away?

He didn’t but I think he was scared he did...even Peter knows it’s a possibility.
So as long as you're afraid, it's fine to denied Christ 3x?

Yep, people back slide...maybe they would be less inclined if they thought that they could fall away front he faith one of those times? We are told to fear the Lord but Christians look at that as something other than maybe actually fearing God? They say have awe for God but what if it is to fear Him and His nightly power. Yep, He loves us enough to save us...but He still is to be feared if the OT is still part of the Bible. The Israelites are us aren’t they and look how God has dealt with them? We are lucky God sent us His Holy Spirit who helps us...but isn’t it just as easy to talk ourselves out of obeying His Spirit?
you're assuming OSAS does not obey God. OSAS realized there are consequences for sins so it's recommended to obey God and His commandments. No body want to be chastised by God. However, OSAS aren't obeying God in fear of losing salvation.
 
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Lisa

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what is your definition of enlightened?
so ONLY the people AFTER the "upper room" event can be classified as fallen away? Which mean there are zero fallen away in the OT?
Can you follow someone and not be enlightened?
‭‭
If your faith is a progress, then you don't have salvation YET. You're working toward your salvation by keeping faith.
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”

Hebrews‬ ‭6:1-2‬ ‭
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.​



the Bible never said the one fallen away used to have faith or were saved...Judas is a perfect example of a fallen away, unless you can give me your example of someone in the Bible that has fell away?
I’ve given you scripture that people will fall away from the faith and what that means..how much more do you really need? Especially when one scripture tells us that the Spirit explicitly tells us that some will fall away from the faith.

So as long as you're afraid, it's fine to denied Christ 3x?
He didn’t think he was going to deny Christ at all, right? And was shocked to realize after he heard that rooster that he had done exactly what he said he’d never do...which I think we can all learn from actually..
But even he tells Jesus..”I will never fall away from you.” He knows that’s a possibility.
Matthew‬ ‭26:33‬ ‭
But Peter said to Him, “ Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away.”​
‭‭

you're assuming OSAS does not obey God. OSAS realized there are consequences for sins so it's recommended to obey God and His commandments. No body want to be chastised by God. However, OSAS aren't obeying God in fear of losing salvation.
Where’s the fear? Why be afraid of God when He will have you no matter what? And that’s not Biblical btw.
 

floss

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Can you follow someone and not be enlightened?
What is your definition of enlightened?
‭‭
I’ve given you scripture that people will fall away from the faith and what that means..how much more do you really need? Especially when one scripture tells us that the Spirit explicitly tells us that some will fall away from the faith.
I agreed with scriptures there will be a fallen away. However, scriptures never said they were once saved. You assumed that just because they are a partaker of the Holy Spirit.

Where’s the fear? Why be afraid of God when He will have you no matter what? And that’s not Biblical btw.
That's exactly the unconditional love of God, He WILL have you no matter what as long as you're His. It's definitely Biblical. If your child disowned you, is he/she stopped being your child?

Hebrews 13:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

John 10:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Deuteronomy 4:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Nehemiah 9:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies' sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God.

OSAS feared God, why? Because we want to live in abundant of blessing and not curses. When we disobey God there are consequences that we aren't ready to face. God can destroy and physically kill you. OSAS still love to breath and serve God. There are a lot of reason to fear God, but definitely not fear of losing salvation because it's impossible.

Name someone in the Bible you think lost their salvation.
 

justjess

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You shall know them by their fruits...

Have any of you ever met a Christian Universalist? Been to one of their churches? They are typically the most amazing, kind, loving people living the message of the Bible everyday. Their fruits are enough for me.

You give god far less credit then he deserves becauze you need to believe your special and better than other people.. That’s your problem. Not gods.
 
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