Christian Universalism - Good News or Bad Doctrine?

Does the Bible teach “Universal Reconciliation”?

  • Not sure, let me think about it...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21

Lisa

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I’ve reported you. Feel free to report me as well.

Though the accusation I’m a sock is demonstrably false (and against the rules), while the accusation your an idiot is plain as day for anyone to see.
Ok..but you and faker come into the thread to say the exact same thing...and I wonder how you have the time with a toddler and a job to be here as much as you are during the day...I guess that’s just my curious/suspicious mind at work?
 

Todd

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I don't believe anyone here is upset Todd, I just find it verrry interesting you only believe/quote Paul whenever it suit your argument =)
According to you Jesus Peter James John said the same thing, so you can easily quote from them but chose not to. Verrry interesting. Personally, I wouldn't even quote the Pope if he say exactly what Jesus said. :cool:
Your read and comprehend my posts as well as you do the bible ;)
When did I ever say Jesus, Peter, James and John said the same thing as Paul?
 

Lisa

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Not an expert Lisa. Never claimed to be. You asked me why I was interested. I answered.

It’s not my problem that you don’t understand simple definitions of words that are universally accepted in the English language. I’m sure his using Paul was very inconvenient for you but that doesn’t make him a hypocrite.

I am well aware nothing will sway you. There’s no point arguing with idiots, you can’t change a mind you don’t even have. However, there are a lot of other posters and lurkers on this forum who will get the same information and hopefully some will process it. This isn’t a private conversation with an audience of one.
Its not inconvenient..I wasn’t having the convo with Todd, floss was, I was just agreeing with floss‘ comment.

I guess that’s the difference between me and many of the people here..I am always talking to the person I reply to and not the crowd who may be listening in...
 

Todd

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To see what? That Todd is a hypocrite...saying Paul and his writing aren’t part of the Bible then using them for his own purposes when it suits him...not very popular with me, he should stop.

So, are you, Todd and faker pals or socks or something..why do you or faker even care about this convo?
Your reading comprehension is just as bad as @floss. When did I ever say that Paul's writings aren't part of the Bible? Hilarious.
 

floss

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Your read and comprehend my posts as well as you do the bible ;)
When did I ever say Jesus, Peter, James and John said the same thing as Paul?
How did you arrived at the conclusion that Paul's writing doesn't conflict with Jesus Peter John James? They must've said something similar to Paul?
 

Lisa

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how much of this mental work is required just to settle upon lazy assumptions?
Well it is an assumption since I don’t actually have proof. It’s just when I’ve already answered the same exact question by someone else..I start to wonder if there isn’t something to the assertion that there are socks here.
 
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Well it is an assumption since I don’t actually have proof. It’s just when I’ve already answered the same exact question by someone else..I start to wonder if there isn’t something to the assertion that there are socks here.
Wait, which question was that? You're not making sense now.
 

justjess

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Ok..but you and faker come into the thread to say the exact same thing...and I wonder how you have the time with a toddler and a job to be here as much as you are during the day...I guess that’s just my curious/suspicious mind at work?
You have twice as many posts as I do Lisa. Might want to walk back that curiosity... my client has the flu and as a result I am unable to work this week.

For some reason I appear to be the only person questioned over why they are here repeatedly. My presence must be a real problem for you huh?

Also I commented earlier in this thread and have been following it for quite some time. But I have every right to comment in any thread I deem fit.
 

Lisa

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Personal attacks are not allowed. Next offense will result in a ban.
You have twice as many posts as I do Lisa. Might want to walk back that curiosity... my client has the flu and as a result I am unable to work this week.

For some reason I appear to be the only person questioned over why they are here repeatedly. My presence must be a real problem for you huh?

Also I commented earlier in this thread and have been following it for quite some time. But I have every right to comment in any thread I deem fit.
What about last week and the week before..but ok..

Just make me wonder when you are here so much when you say you have a job...makes me think you can’t be a good employee if you’re on the internet here so much. And your daughter must be a toddler, so then how can you be here so much when she’s needs attention..I start to think maybe you’re not telling the truth.

No doubt you do..but so do others.
 

justjess

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What about last week and the week before..but ok..

Just make me wonder when you are here so much when you say you have a job...makes me think you can’t be a good employee if you’re on the internet here so much. And your daughter must be a toddler, so then how can you be here so much when she’s needs attention..I start to think maybe you’re not telling the truth.

No doubt you do..but so do others.
Holidays Lisa. Snow days Lisa. And again I don’t owe you an explanation nor do you ever ask anyone else why or how they are here so much?

You have twice as many posts as me and seem to post morning, noon, night, middle of the night... how are you able to do that? How do you have the time? Don’t you have a husband and kids? Don’t you own a business? Don’t you go to church?

Personal attacks are against forum rules. And let this be noted while you might not straight call some one names such a blithering idiot, moron, selfish greedy satanist cunt.. you are just as guilty of personal attacks as anyone else.
 

Lisa

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Holidays Lisa. Snow days Lisa. And again I don’t owe you an explanation nor do you ever ask anyone else why or how they are here so much?

You have twice as many posts as me and seem to post morning, noon, night, middle of the night... how are you able to do that? How do you have the time? Don’t you have a husband and kids? Don’t you own a business? Don’t you go to church?

Personal attacks are against forum rules. And let this be noted while you might not straight call some one names such a blithering idiot, moron, selfish greedy satanist cunt.. you are just as guilty of personal attacks as anyone else.
What personal attack? We are on a forum that is suspicious of everything we see, read and hear..

I don’t have kids to take care of and I am currently not working, so I have some time to be here. I normally am not here when I’m with my family and sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and can’t sleep so I come here. But I would wonder about me if I said I have a job and small children and then am here during the day.

When you weren’t here all that much I believed you better..
 

justjess

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What personal attack? We are on a forum that is suspicious of everything we see, read and hear..

I don’t have kids to take care of and I am currently not working, so I have some time to be here. I normally am not here when I’m with my family and sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and can’t sleep so I come here. But I would wonder about me if I said I have a job and small children and then am here during the day.

When you weren’t here all that much I believed you better..
Implying I am either a bad mother or a liar is a personal attack Lisa. I owe you no explanation for why and when I’m here. And people that have been here long enough know full well I’m not a liar. I refuse to discuss my parenting or my children and am not going to be baited into doing so - especially not by someone like you. Feign innocence and/or ignorance as much you want - 99% of the posters here see RIGHT THROUGH YOU.

I’m sure me being here less or not at all would be a big win for you. Sorry to disappoint.
 

Lisa

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Implying I am either a bad mother or a liar is a personal attack Lisa. I owe you no explanation for why and when I’m here. And people that have been here long enough know full well I’m not a liar. I refuse to discuss my parenting or my children and am not going to be baited into doing so - especially not by someone like you. Feign innocence and/or ignorance as much you want - 99% of the posters here see RIGHT THROUGH YOU.

I’m sure me being here less or not at all would be a big win for you. Sorry to disappoint.
You don’t owe me anything Jess, I’m just pointing that out because you have shared you work during the day and you have a teen son and a now toddler daughter then I have to say when you’re here during the day for weeks, I start to not believe what you’ve said...that’s all.

It is quieter for me when you’re not here that’s for sure but I don’t miss your pummeling me for anything I say, just makes me wish we could have a normal conversation without you getting upset and in my face every time.
 
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justjess

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You don’t owe me anything Jess, I’m just pointing that out because you have shared you work during the day and you have a teen son and a now toddler daughter then I have to say when you’re here during the day for weeks, I start to not believe what you’ve said...that’s all.

It is quieter for me when you’re not here that’s for sure but I don’t miss your pummeling me for anything I say, just makes me wish we could have a normal conversation without you getting upset and in my face every time.
You are implying I am either a liar or a bad mother. Atleast own your bullshit Lisa.

For the record, I am neither.

The amount of time required to comment on this forum is negligible. I’m sure it’s a lot more labor inductive for someone with a lower iq... somehow I’m able to 1)work 2) mother 3) wife 4) go to graduate school and mantain a 4.0 and 5) help my husband run two businesses while still having time to contribute to discussions here. Maybe it’s because I’m not wasting my free time following royal scandals in tabloid magazines? Idk. Just a thought.

I don’t watch tv. I don’t do movies really. This is my “relax” activity. The amount of time I spend here will fluctuate accordingly. For someone with twice the amount of posts I have that doesn’t even seem to have a time of day that they aren’t here actively trying to shit stir to call me out on how much time I spend here intermittently is a bit absurd.

This isn’t the first time you’ve used this line of attack in an attempt to discredit me, I am sure it won’t be the last. I’m sorry if in my absence you have an easier time spinning your bullshit with less pushback so me being here more actively is an inconvenience for you, perhaps whoever’s paying you docks your check for ineffective posts. Idk.

What I do know is this discussion on my character (and prior to that Todd’s) is completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread. Maybe that’s what your trying to deflect from?
 

Todd

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@Lisa and @floss appear to be infatuated with my stance on the self appointed apostle Paul, without correctly undertanding my stance. Therefore I feel the need to clarify for anyone else who might be confused by the direction of the discussion.

First I don't think the writings of Paul should be removed from the Bible. They are very important in understanding the formation of Christianity and the original sect of the Hebrew Faith that Peter, James and John lead that was called "The Way" in the book of Acts.

Second, though I may have personal questions and concerns about Paul's conversion story and his self appointment as an Apostle, there is no doubt that he had insight and revelations from God and his true gifting was as an Evangelist rather than an Apostle. He was the single greatest contributor to the Gentile world receiving the gospel. So of course his writings should be part of the Bible, but we should be careful to to use interpretations of his difficult to understand writing as the basis for core church doctrines and dogma.

I don't blindly accept every passage that is in the Bible as the "Word of God". Paul himself admitted some portions of his writings were his own ideas and not directly from God. It is absurd to think every word written in the Bible is the direct Word of God. When Jesus promised the gift of the Holy Spirit he did not say the Holy Spirit would remind us of what is written in the scritpures. He said the Holy Spirit would remind us of the words he spoke.

Third, my faith, beliefs and understanding of God's word is in constant evolution and growth. I reserve the right to retract or change my mind/beliefs in the future. Many of you witnessed the process of change and growth on my stance about Paul on this forum and the previous edition of this forum. And it was just that...a process. Often times the process of paradigm change involves the pendulum swinging wildly from one side to the other before the correct balance is found. For those who have been indoctrinated with religious dogma and doctrine that never changes, this may be a new concept.

Fourth, Peter warned that Paul's writings were difficult to understand and had the potential to be destructive. As a former leader/pastor of Institutional Christianity, I observed a direct correlation between doctrines and dogma that come from interpretations of unclear sections of Paul writings and some of the destructive and unhealthy practices and doctrines of hierarchial church organizations. Also many of the opposing doctrines and issues within Orthodox Christianity that bring about division in the church (i.e. predestination vs. free will, grace vs works, role of women in the church, original sin, immortality of the soul, etc) exist mainly due to competing interpretations of Paul's writing. Please note I am not accusing Paul of falsely teaching anything on these subjects, but only that incorrect understanding or interpretation of his writing has caused these divisions, just as Peter predicted.

Because of this I have rejected many doctrines and dogma that are based on interpretations of Paul's writings and prefer to defer to the plain and clear interpretation of the words of Jesus (and those who followed him in the flesh) especailly when they appear contradictory to Paul's writing. Unfortunately most of organized Christianity does the opposite and defers to Paul before Jesus.

I still read the writings of Paul in my Bible and still ask God to give me insight, inspiration and correction though them. There are many scripture references not written by Paul that support and teach the doctrine of UR, but Paul's writing contains alot about it also. I would be remiss to exclude Paul's writings in any discussion about UR, especially when the discussion is with people who place Paul's writings equal to or above Jesus' words. (As Jess correctly pointed out)

Now that I have tried to clearly explain my stance on Paul, please keep your criticism, judgement and condemnation of the state of my soul, consistent with my stated stance ;) If my stance evolves or changes, I'll do my best to keep you informed so you can keep up!
 

floss

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@Lisa and @floss appear to be infatuated with my stance on the self appointed apostle Paul, without correctly undertanding my stance. Therefore I feel the need to clarify for anyone else who might be confused by the direction of the discussion.

First I don't think the writings of Paul should be removed from the Bible. They are very important in understanding the formation of Christianity and the original sect of the Hebrew Faith that Peter, James and John lead that was called "The Way" in the book of Acts.

Second, though I may have personal questions and concerns about Paul's conversion story and his self appointment as an Apostle, there is no doubt that he had insight and revelations from God and his true gifting was as an Evangelist rather than an Apostle. He was the single greatest contributor to the Gentile world receiving the gospel. So of course his writings should be part of the Bible, but we should be careful to to use interpretations of his difficult to understand writing as the basis for core church doctrines and dogma.

I don't blindly accept every passage that is in the Bible as the "Word of God". Paul himself admitted some portions of his writings were his own ideas and not directly from God. It is absurd to think every word written in the Bible is the direct Word of God. When Jesus promised the gift of the Holy Spirit he did not say the Holy Spirit would remind us of what is written in the scritpures. He said the Holy Spirit would remind us of the words he spoke.

Third, my faith, beliefs and understanding of God's word is in constant evolution and growth. I reserve the right to retract or change my mind/beliefs in the future. Many of you witnessed the process of change and growth on my stance about Paul on this forum and the previous edition of this forum. And it was just that...a process. Often times the process of paradigm change involves the pendulum swinging wildly from one side to the other before the correct balance is found. For those who have been indoctrinated with religious dogma and doctrine that never changes, this may be a new concept.

Fourth, Peter warned that Paul's writings were difficult to understand and had the potential to be destructive. As a former leader/pastor of Institutional Christianity, I observed a direct correlation between doctrines and dogma that come from interpretations of unclear sections of Paul writings and some of the destructive and unhealthy practices and doctrines of hierarchial church organizations. Also many of the opposing doctrines and issues within Orthodox Christianity that bring about division in the church (i.e. predestination vs. free will, grace vs works, role of women in the church, original sin, immortality of the soul, etc) exist mainly due to competing interpretations of Paul's writing. Please note I am not accusing Paul of falsely teaching anything on these subjects, but only that incorrect understanding or interpretation of his writing has caused these divisions, just as Peter predicted.

Because of this I have rejected many doctrines and dogma that are based on interpretations of Paul's writings and prefer to defer to the plain and clear interpretation of the words of Jesus (and those who followed him in the flesh) especailly when they appear contradictory to Paul's writing. Unfortunately most of organized Christianity does the opposite and defers to Paul before Jesus.

I still read the writings of Paul in my Bible and still ask God to give me insight, inspiration and correction though them. There are many scripture references not written by Paul that support and teach the doctrine of UR, but Paul's writing contains alot about it also. I would be remiss to exclude Paul's writings in any discussion about UR, especially when the discussion is with people who place Paul's writings equal to or above Jesus' words. (As Jess correctly pointed out)

Now that I have tried to clearly explain my stance on Paul, please keep your criticism, judgement and condemnation of the state of my soul, consistent with my stated stance ;) If my stance evolves or changes, I'll do my best to keep you informed so you can keep up!
Do you accept or reject Paul's word as inspired by God? Or is it partially inspired?
 

A Freeman

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Do any of you really believe that our ALL-POWERFUL Creator is somehow powerless to stop puny men from corrupting His Message to mankind?

Our Creator wrote a basic programming language by which all living things on this planet are made, which we call DNA. Within that language there are built-in redundancies and error correction capabilities, to ensure the code cannot be corrupted unless it's destroyed.

The Bible has been written in much the same way, so that the minor additions and subtractions that our Creator has ALLOWED the churches to make to it are easy to expose for those who care enough to take the time to study it in detail, beyond the veil of organized religion.

And, exactly as His Holy Scriptures have been warning us in no uncertain terms for thousands of years, there will only be 144,000 who are redeemed from this prison planet reform school for the criminally insane.

Satan will drag everyone else with him into The Fire, with all of his lies, like the one called "Christian Universalism".
 
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