Christian Zionism Discussed

[Red Sky at Morning]

UN Votes for Resolution Rejecting US Recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli Capital

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201712211060213133-un-jerusalem-israel-resolution-palestine-status/

1{A Song or Psalm of Asaph.} Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.

2For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.

3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

4They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

5For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:

http://biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/83.htm

 

[Lisa]

UN Votes for Resolution Rejecting US Recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli Capital

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201712211060213133-un-jerusalem-israel-resolution-palestine-status/

1{A Song or Psalm of Asaph.} Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.

2For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.

3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.

4They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

5For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:

http://biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/83.htm

I guess, the UN aren’t on the side of Israel after all....Idk how anyone thinks that Israel is actually controlling the world, since they can’t even get Jerusalem to be named their capital...

 

[Serveto]

I guess, the UN aren’t on the side of Israel after all....Idk how anyone thinks that Israel is actually controlling the world, since they can’t even get Jerusalem to be named their capital...

Consider this possibility: Israel essentially exercises a de facto right to veto power in the only institution of the UN that matters, the Security Council, by means of its vassal State, or combination of States, the USA. If Israel isn't "controlling the world," which is a preposterous claim, I agree, it does seem to have "disproportionate" influence over what has been called the world's only Super -or, as intellectual Europeans like to call it, Stupor- Power, the USA.

As I read it, the UN, including many of America's best European allies, England, France, Italy, etc., are reacting against Trump's "unilateral" illegality, not because they simplistically "hate" Israel, despite Nikki Haley's only somewhat couched and veiled claims to the contrary.

 

[Lisa]

How about this: Israel essentially exercises a de facto right to veto power in the only institution of the UN that matters, the Security Council, by means of its vassal State, or combination of States, the USA. If Israel isn't "controlling the world," which is a preposterous claim, I agree, it does seem to have "disproportionate" influence over what has been called the world's only Super -or, as intellectual Europeans like to call it, Stupor- power.

As I read it, the UN, including many of America's best European allies, England, France, Italy, etc., are reacting against Trump's "unilateral" illegality, not because they simplistically "hate" Israel, despite Nikki Haley's dubious claims to the contrary.

If they had all that power through the US, how come they only got the US to acknowledge Jerusalem now?

What was illegal in what trump did? As president he can acknowledge Jerusalem.

 

[Serveto]

What was illegal in what trump did? As president he can acknowledge Jerusalem.

I already answered that in this {click here} post. I don't know if the answer is satisfactory, but I haven't heard any convincing rebuttals, and your purple rolled up eyes don't qualify as a one.

 

[Lisa]

I already answered that in this {click here} post. I don't know if the answer satisfactory, but I haven't heard any convincing rebuttals, and your purple rolled up eyes don't qualify as a one.

Ah, I didn’t see that reply, sorry.

What I do know is that apparently there was a resolution that presidents kept signing to put off acknowledging Jerusalem...so instead of signing the waiver, he signed the resolution. I don’t know how that is considered illegal then?

 

[Lisa]

No worries.

The situation is beyond complex, and, as has been rightly said, "there is more to the picture than meets the eye." If you want to look into the legal matters further, which is what the UN and others are discussing, I think enough starting information is provided in my above links (not that I am an expert, by any means, but I am looking beyond what is commonly provided and presented as the picture).

So, you are adding to the story?
I think they are just mad that the US would acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel’s honestly. It was legal, trump signed legal papers. Used to be nations were sovereign over their own nations, now its we are the world...

 

[Serveto]

So, you are adding to the story?
I think they are just mad that the US would acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel’s honestly. It was legal, trump signed legal papers. Used to be nations were sovereign over their own nations, now its we are the world...

Well, the US is a signatory to some of those now hotly debated UN Resolutions, and I am not adding to the story.

 

[Lisa]

Well, the US is a signatory to some of those now hotly debated UN Resolutions, and I am not adding to the story.

And? People disagree all the time, trump did what was right for Israel, why cry over it?

 

[Serveto]

And? People disagree all the time, trump did what was right for Israel, why cry over it?

Is this supposed to be a response to something I said? You did quote me, although, in this case, I am unsure quite why.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

An interesting perspective...

 

[rainerann]

"Trypho: What is this you say? That none of us shall inherit anything on the holy mountain of God?

Chapter 26. No salvation to the Jews except through Christ
Justin: I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holymountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus:

I, the Lord God, have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will strengthen You; and I have given You for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house. Isaiah 42:6-7"

Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho

 

[DesertRose]

An interesting perspective...

Red, Memri is an Israeli watchdog organization. I am not surprised by their ability to find the few that support that state. Moreover, that viewpoint is held by a minuscule amount of Muslims.
Faith and piety have actions that can be seen. "By their deeds you shall know them."
That state and its people support the worst of actions. As a human being we can only denounce these actions not support them.
Arrogance and a view that they are entitled to something as a result of birthright is Ungodly in belief.
In fact it is Satanic thought.
Satan thought he was better than Adam and that he deserved God's favor as a birth right and due to superiority.
These folks think of others as nothing or as cockroaches at best. Why on earth would a sane believer support them in their beliefs and oppression?

Israel Is Illegitimate
By Alan Hart
http://www.countercurrents.org/hart050410.htm
So What? Christians
By Laurence M. Vance
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/12/laurence-m-vance/so-what-christians/

 

[AspiringSoul]

..“There is something very special and holy in Trump,” added Hayman...

As long as i get to laugh, nothing else matters
Seriously, reading that, all i could think of was "grab them by the p***y". Then i had to imagine Cyrus the great, circa 570 BC, making the same comment...*shudders*...

Cyrus the great smashed the chaldeans, the usurers and thieves described in Habakkuk 2.
Trump has only aided and abetted them today.

 

[elsbet]

I already answered that in this {click here} post. I don't know if the answer satisfactory, but I haven't heard any convincing rebuttals, and your purple rolled up eyes don't qualify as a one.

Fair enough.
After following the trail of breadcrumbs to get to the heart of the matter, it seems that it is seen as a violation of the Fourth Geneva convention, stating that naming Jerusalem capital denies humanitarian protections for civilians in a war zone.

I am curious though how they came to that conclusion.. thoughts?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

As far as "Zionism" is concerned, I think the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5 is very wise...

"38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

I listened to Isaiah and Jeremiah decorating the lounge over the weekend. A great (but lengthy!) exercise in getting a feel for how God might view things. Where things seem to go wrong with Zionism is when Jews who reject the NT confuse the Millennial promises with things that they themselves will accomplish with the help of the "Messiah" (not accepting that he has already come).

As a result, the Messiah they will embrace in their rejection of Jesus will be the Antichrist. It is clear from my reading that God will at some point draw history to a decision point, both for the Jews and the nations of the World.

At that point, the question of all questions, and the one that occupies this forum so much - "Who do YOU say that I am?" becomes the most important thing of all.

 

[elsbet]

As far as "Zionism" is concerned, I think the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5 is very wise...

"38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

I listened to Isaiah and Jeremiah decorating the lounge over the weekend. A great (but lengthy!) exercise in getting a feel for how God might view things. Where things seem to go wrong with Zionism is when Jews who reject the NT confuse the Millennial promises with things that they themselves will accomplish with the help of the "Messiah" (not accepting that he has already come).

As a result, the Messiah they will embrace in their rejection of Jesus will be the Antichrist. It is clear from my reading that God will at some point draw history to a decision point, both for the Jews and the nations of the World.

At that point, the question of all questions, and the one that occupies this forum so much - "Who do YOU say that I am?" becomes the most important thing of all.

Iirc, that exchange took place at Mt. Hermon. Will cite when I have more time.

 

[Serveto]

Fair enough.
After following the trail of breadcrumbs to get to the heart of the matter, it seems that it is seen as a violation of the Fourth Geneva convention, stating that naming Jerusalem capital denies humanitarian protections for civilians in a war zone.

I am curious though how they came to that conclusion.. thoughts?

As I only superficially understand, what is being argued is whether Jerusalem, legally speaking, is a "corpus separatum," a city that, given its history and "holy places," is shared by Jews, Christians, Muslims and others, as this relates to UN Res 181 (1947). A series of subsequent UN resolutions has tended to either reiterate or confirm that, and the USA is a participant, a signatory to those resolutions. Together, those and related resolutions state that nobody, be it Israel, Jordan, Egypt, the Vatican or casino moguls Sheldon Adelson and Donald Trump can unilaterally change that status: it is to be changed by way of negotiations, and Jerusalem, ref the Oslo Accords, is a "final status" issue in those between Israel and Palestine. Our allies, Sweden, Great Britain, France, Italy, and others recently confirmed that by voting for the legal "status quo" (and thus opposed to the move by Adelson/Trump) in the UN Security Council meeting hurriedly convened to address the issue.

Whether or not and how the "corpus separatum," as it has legally unfolded over time, is related to Geneva Conventions is, to me, a side issue, and one I have not researched.

 

[Serveto]

As far as "Zionism" is concerned, I think the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5 is very wise...

"38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

Not to be overly cynical, but I haven't seen much evidence that anything wrought by Rothschild and now Sheldon Adelson is very easily overthrown either. Sometimes, and as it has been said, it seems to me that the highest concept of God expressed by the geopolitically conjoined twins, Chabad/CUFI, is that of an invisible, seemingly all-powerful real estate agent for the Likud Beiteinu strain of Zionism.

I listened to Isaiah and Jeremiah decorating the lounge over the weekend.

Dude! Isaiah and Jeremiah decorated your lounge? I know they rank as major prophets, but how would you say they score as interior decorators? Just having some fun with you here, trying to lighten an otherwise at times heavy thread .

 

[Claire Rousseau]

@DesertRose

Ok - it's worth considering the claims made here... This is what James Perloff believes "Christian Zionists" hold to, based on the link you posted:

https://jamesperloff.com/2016/08/31/the-war-on-christianity-part-ii-the-abomination-and-blasphemy-of-christian-zionism/

• God wanted the Jews to return to, and take over, Palestine.
• Godhas two plans of salvation—one through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the other a guarantee reserved for Jews, his “Chosen People.”
• Christians should not involve themselves in politics, education, business or the arts, as these are “worldly” matters that should be left in the hands of “worldly” people. (The consequences of this doctrine are very visible in American culture today.)
• God deals with mankind differently during different historical time frames or “dispensations,” of which there are seven. The current one, “Grace” under Jesus Christ, is merely the sixth of the seven dispensations.
• The Christian Church is doomed to inevitable failure, which will bring the Dispensation of Grace to a close.
• The end of this dispensational age will be marked by the Tribulation—worldwide persecution under the Antichrist for a period of seven years; however, Christians need not concern themselves with this, since Jesus will “Rapture” believers off the Earth and they won’t be around to experience it.
• Earth will then experience a Jewish era; Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifices will be reinstituted; Jesus will reign for a thousand years from Solomon’s rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

I have benefitted in my understanding of the Islamic perspective of prophecy you have provided in the "Prophetic Expectations" thread. The issue I want to draw out if anyone is interested...

Based on the supposed position of Christian Zionists set out above, to what degree does this characterisation represent the straightforward reading of the Bible or accurately reflect the beliefs of those others would label as "Christian Zionists".

The third one is the only one I find rational, or biblically based.