VCF Christian Fellowship

The VCF should enable…

  • Christian perspectives on events

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Encouragement

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Sharing experiences

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Prayer

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Friendship

    Votes: 7 87.5%
  • Sharing helpful teaching

    Votes: 6 75.0%
  • Fostering understanding of different points of view

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

A Freeman

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Btw @A Freeman ….

Psalm 106:45 says, "For their sake He remembered His covenant, and relented according to the multitude of His mercies". This verse highlights God's faithfulness to his covenant and his compassion for his people, even when they have been unfaithful.
And why would you assume that Psalm 106:45 is referring to the "Jews" please? Even if we were to ignore the fact that most of the "Jews" in Jesus' day were Idumaean Edomites, who had been converted to Talmudic Judaism c. 105 under John Hyrcanus, and assume that term referred to the tribe of Judah, or to the two-tribed "House of Judah", what about the 10-tribed "House of Israel", which make up the overwhelming majority of the Israelites, with whom God made His Covenants?

Did God not call Ephraim His "Firstborn" (Jer. 31:9)?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@A Freeman

Have you ever heard of deductive reasoning? Imagine a 19th Century novel set in England. In a rural setting Tom the local yeoman is referenced but the writer might reasonably leave out “Tom the British yeoman” without loss of clarity as it is implicit in his locality and station in life. You could take this a step further and to the person who asserts that Tom is French, the burden of truth lies upon them.

Your question kind of reminds me of the popular Islamic question “where does Jesus say ‘I am God, worship me”. Think about it…
 

A Freeman

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@A Freeman

Have you ever heard of deductive reasoning? Imagine a 19th Century novel set in England. In a rural setting Tom the local yeoman is referenced but the writer might reasonably leave out “Tom the British yeoman” without loss of clarity as it is implicit in his locality and station in life. You could take this a step further and to the person who asserts that Tom is French, the burden of truth lies upon them.

Your question kind of reminds me of the popular Islamic question “where does Jesus say ‘I am God, worship me”. Think about it…
There's no need for anyone to imagine anything. In fact, it's your imagination -- about "Jews" and about Jesus' disciples being martyred when it doesn't say that anywhere in Scripture (nor infer it) -- that is deceiving you (Gen. 6:5).

You're still evading the questions. It's understood you will never answer them directly, because you cannot do so without admitting you believe in and are promoting lies.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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There's no need for anyone to imagine anything. In fact, it's your imagination -- about "Jews" and about Jesus' disciples being martyred when it doesn't say that anywhere in Scripture (nor infer it) -- that is deceiving you (Gen. 6:5).

You're still evading the questions. It's understood you will never answer them directly, because you cannot do so without admitting you believe in and are promoting lies.
I admire your persistence if nothing else.

I don’t see any good reason to conclude that local men living in Judea weren’t Jews, but there is a line that experience has taught me not to cross.

IMG_5862.jpeg
 

A Freeman

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Christ's cursing of the fig-tree (symbolic of the "Jews" - Jer. 24:5)

Matthew 21:19-21
21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
21:20 And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the Fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this "mountain" (government - Isa. 2:1-4), Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the "sea" (people - Isa. 17:12-13); it shall be done.


The "Jews" confirming the curse on themselves

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us (the Jews), and on our children (descendants).


The
Mission Christ gave to His Disciples:-

Matthew 10:5-6

10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and COMMANDED them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the "House of Israel" (symbolized by the olive tree - Zech. 4; Rom. 11:24-28)


Christ's further condemnation of the "Jews", and all those who support them by promoting their lies:

King of kings' Bible - John 8:35-36 (KJV John 8:44-45)
8:35 Ye are of [YOUR] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father (inventor) of it.
8:36 And because I tell [you] the Truth, ye believe me not.


It should be self-evident that Christ didn't curse His own disciples. It should likewise be self-evident that Christ sent His Disciples to the 10 "Lost Tribes" of the "House of Israel" because they themselves were Israelites from those tribes, which were very obviously scattered abroad ( i.e. NOT in Judaea - James 1:1) , as was the 2-tribed "House of Judah. Further, it should be self-evident from a thorough inspection of Scripture that the 10-tribed "House of Israel" was NEVER referred to as "Jews". Not in the Old Covenant, nor in the New Covenant, nor now.
 

A Freeman

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And as far as Christ's Disciples, the only prophecy Christ provided us is that Peter would die of old age (in Jerusalem), NOT on an inverted cross in Rome, as Roman Catholicism, and many of the protestant denomination) deceitfully promote.

John 21:18-19
21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst where thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee (i.e. dress thee), and carry [thee] where thou wouldest not.
21:19 This spoke he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

There isn't one single verse that tells us ANY of Jesus' disciples were martyred, either directly or by inference.

If one truly believes that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then they must logically deduce that the disciples sent out into the world by Christ would have been both well-protected and provided every opportunity to spread the Gospel among the Israelite tribes, as they were COMMANDED to do.
 

A Freeman

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To save you ongoing trouble and keep things concise, what nationality do you believe that Jesus and the disciples were, if not Jewish?
Jesus' lineage is well-documented, as he was descended from the line of David (Matt. 1:1-17). And David was descended from both the line of Judah and the line of Levi, which made Jesus uniquely eligible to become both King and High-Priest.

With regard to the 12 disciples, they obviously represented all of Israel, which is why they were sent out to their countrymen, instead of to the Gentiles.

The difficulty you're having is shaking the LIE that all Israelites were somehow "Jews", even though Judah was only one of the 12 tribes and certainly NOT the other 11. Further, the "Jews" at the time of Jesus were predominantly Idumaean-Edomites, who were mass-converted by edict under John Hyracanus roughly a century before Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea. That's why the Idumaean-Edomites dominated the ruling body of the "Jews", aka the Great Sanhedrin.

From Obadiah concerning the Edomites -
1:15 For the day of the "I AM" [is] near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
1:16 For as ye have drunk upon My Holy Mountain (Moriah), [so] shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there SHALL be HOLINESS; and the House of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
1:18 And the House of Jacob shall be a fire, and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be [any] remaining of the House of Esau; for the "I AM" hath spoken [it].
 

A Freeman

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Over 95 Scriptural birthmarks of the Israelites during the latter-days:-


Concerning what Scripture tells us about them which say they are Jews but are NOT:-


Isaiah 1:17-18
1:17 Learn to do well; seek Judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the "I AM": though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The difficulty you're having is shaking the LIE that all Israelites were somehow "Jews"…
I think the British Israelite view requires an adherent to expand on the “Lost Tribes” of Isreal concept (making a connection with Britain using tenuous linguistic homology) while marginalising and denigrating the term “Jew” as a subset of Israelites that have been later further corrupted (Protocols, Khazarians etc etc)

From the Bible it would seem that after the exile, members of the 10 tribes were never really “lost” but instead returned and mixed with the wider Jewish population of the south.



At this point, it would seem that the various terms would come to be used in a more fluid way. If you want to call the disciples Israelis, that’s fine with me. Perhaps “Native Hebrew descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob” or NHDAIJ’s would clear up (though be harder to remember?
 

A Freeman

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I think the British Israelite view requires an adherent to expand on the “Lost Tribes” of Isreal concept (making a connection with Britain using tenuous linguistic homology) while marginalising and denigrating the term “Jew” as a subset of Israelites that have been later further corrupted (Protocols, Khazarians etc etc)
It doesn't really matter what you think though, does it? What matters is what the Scripture tells us.

There is not even one verse in Scripture where the northern 10 tribes -- which retained both the name "Israel" and the majority of the Israelites -- are referred to as "Jews".

Apparently, you cannot approach this subject with even a shred of honesty, now pretending that the term "Jew" has somehow been "marginalized" and "denigrated" by Biblical fact. And you espouse these lies, to hide the other lies you just told, which you refuse to face or apologize to the readers here for posting, even though you've been proven to be in obvious error. Again, stop worming/waffling around and admit that there isn't one single verse in Scripture that backs the notion that Jesus' disciples were martyred.

If you feel that the deceitful graphic you posted about Jesus' disciples being martyrs isn't in error, then you should be able to easily prove to everyone where in Scripture it tells us that these disciples were martyred in the manner in which you claim they were, shouldn't you?

From the Bible it would seem that after the exile, members of the 10 tribes were never really “lost” but instead returned and mixed with the wider Jewish population of the south.
"Seem" being the operative word for those who wish to indulge in that totally anti-Biblical fantasy.

God promised and prophesied that the Israelites would become a nation AND a company of nations -- that would grow into a multitude in the midst of the Earth, numbered like "the stars of heaven" and the sand which [is] upon the sea shore -- led by a monarchy descended from the line of David, which God would give to Christ during Christ's SECOND Coming.

Luke 1:31-33
1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Saviour).
1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of The Highest: and the Lord God his Father shall give unto him the Throne of David:
1:33 And he shall reign over the "House of Jacob/Israel" for ever; and of his Kingdom there shall be no end.

At this point, it would seem that the various terms would come to be used in a more fluid way.
Absolutely. It's called "legalese", where common use words are redefined to suit the deceivers. Over 95% of those who say they are "Jews" today are, by their own admission, Ashkenazis, who don't have a single drop of blood in them from either the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Benjamin, nor are even Semites. Exactly as Christ warned in the Gospel according to John and again in His Revelation to John.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

And here is what Christ said will happen to these counterfeit-Jews, including the "Israelis" that currently occupy the land of Israel in the Middle East -

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do LIE; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

If you want to call the disciples Israelis, that’s fine with me.
Is it that you are unable to prevent Satan from speaking directly through you or is it something that you do willingly please? Or do you even know when it happens?

The disciples were ISRAELITES; they were NOT "Israelis".

An ISRAELITE is someone descended from Jacob/Israel, through one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel.

An "Israeli" is a made-up name adopted by the counterfeit-Jews living in the land of Israel, so they can continue to hoodwink the gullible "Christian Zionists" into supporting them and following them to their destruction.

Perhaps “Native Hebrew descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob” or NHDAIJ’s would clear up (though be harder to remember?
There's already a word for that: ISRAELITE.
 
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A Freeman

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Please read carefully:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with Fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

Maldarker

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Please read carefully:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with Fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This would pertain to you false messiah wouldn't it...That dude should repent now because whats coming for him is BAD...I'm sure you know the scriptures on that. First: Romans 1:28

BTW Peter was prophesied to be martyred by JESUS

John 21 18 19?
18 “I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.

Want to take a guess on how Peter was put to death for his faith.
 

A Freeman

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This would pertain to you false messiah wouldn't it...
It would pertain to ALL of the false messiahs/christs and ALL liars, i.e. those who believe in and promote LIES.

As should be self-evident, it would NOT pertain though to the REAL Messiah/Christ Who, as prophesied and promised, is here right now, and has been, like a thief in the night, since the fig-tree prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.


BTW Peter was prophesied to be martyred by JESUS
John 21 18 19?
18 “I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.

Want to take a guess on how Peter was put to death for his faith.
You need to read it again, this time very carefully. It plainly states that Peter will die of old age, and that in his old age, someone else will have to dress (gird) him and help carry him, as he won't be able to dress himself or walk anymore on his own. It doesn't say anything about inverted crosses or being crucified on them.

KJV - John 21:18-19
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

The reason Christ made this prophecy is to expose the Roman Catholic church's LIES about Peter allegedly being the first pope in Rome, and allegedly dying there on an inverted cross, so they can put their satanic upside down cross on everything, to make a mockery of Christ's Sacrifice. And, of course, they make lots of money telling people all of these lies, including the LIE that "St Peter is buried in St. Peter's basilica in Rome", when Peter never went to Rome.

1729089713581.png

Further, where are there any verses about any of the other disciples allegedly being martyred?
 
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A Freeman

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Excerpt below from:

8. Peter the Roman?

The foundation for both the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) and her daughters, i.e. ALL the Protestant religions to which she gave birth, is built on the LIE that Peter was the first pope of Rome. Simon Peter was NEVER in Rome, much less the first pope of the Babylonian mystery religion (Rev. 17:5).

The RCC claims Peter served in Rome in the capacity of pope from 41-66 A.D. (some historians differ on these dates, but not on the location) and that the papacy derives its authority by apostolic succession from Peter, whom they claim is buried under St. Peter’s Basilica. But even a cursory examination of the Scriptures (The Rock-solid Truth) proves this is a complete fabrication.

Matthew 10:5-6
10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the "House of Israel".

Are we to believe that Peter directly disobeyed The Master (Christ-Jesus) and went to Gentile Rome anyway?

Galatians 2:7-9
2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Peter’s Assignment: Circumcision = Jews (in and around Jerusalem, Joppa, etc.)
Paul’s Assignment: Uncircumcision = Gentiles (e.g. Rome)

In the letter to the Romans we are told that those assignments would NOT be intermingled.

Romans 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was known about, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation.

That same letter goes on to send greetings and salutations to no less than 28 people who were in Rome at the very time Peter was supposedly pope (Rom. 16:1-15), and yet it never mentions Peter, which would be very strange and extremely rude if Peter had actually been there. It would also have been completely unnecessary to send a letter to instruct the community in Rome if Peter had been there leading them at that time.

Clearly Peter wasn’t in Rome. He was exactly where he was supposed to be: in Jerusalem and the surrounding area. In fact Peter died (of old age, NOT on a satanic inverted cross – John 21:17-19) in Jerusalem and was buried there, where his tomb was discovered in 1953 at a Franciscan monastery site called “Dominus Flevit.

The first pope of the Roman Catholic Church was not until the 4th century A.D., when the Roman Emperor Constantine took the title “bishop of bishops” for himself. He presided over the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. in that capacity, which is when and where the “Creed of Nicaea”, now known as the “Nicene Creed” was incorporated, which introduced the concept of the pagan trinity into Christianity, mixing it together with the true teachings of Christ.

The entire “apostolic succession” from Peter through to Constantine was then fabricated and back-filled to try to legitimize the church’s worldly authority. ALL based on LIES, because Simon Peter was NEVER in Rome.
 

Maldarker

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It would pertain to ALL of the false messiahs/christs and ALL liars, i.e. those who believe in and promote LIES.

As should be self-evident, it would NOT pertain though to the REAL Messiah/Christ Who, as prophesied and promised, is here right now, and has been, like a thief in the night, since the fig-tree prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.



You need to read it again, this time very carefully. It plainly states that Peter will die of old age, and that in his old age, someone else will have to dress (gird) him and help carry him, as he won't be able to dress himself or walk anymore on his own. It doesn't say anything about inverted crosses or being crucified on them.

KJV - John 21:18-19
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

The reason Christ made this prophecy is to expose the Roman Catholic church's LIES about Peter allegedly being the first pope in Rome, and allegedly dying there on an inverted cross, so they can put their satanic upside down cross on everything, to make a mockery of Christ's Sacrifice. And, of course, they make lots of money telling people all of these lies, including the LIE that "St Peter is buried in St. Peter's basilica in Rome", when Peter never went to Rome.

View attachment 111712

Further, where are there any verses about any of the other disciples allegedly being martyred?
Your dude you follow is a cult leader NUFF SAID!!! Just stop it bro... Jim Jones would be so proud of you...Don't drink the kool aid.

Do you have a mirror in your house? Cuz this also pertains to you.

It would pertain to ALL of the false messiahs/christs and ALL liars, i.e. those who believe in and promote LIES.
 

A Freeman

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Your dude you follow is a cult leader NUFF SAID!!! Just stop it bro... Jim Jones would be so proud of you...Don't drink the kool aid.

Do you have a mirror in your house? Cuz this also pertains to you.

It would pertain to ALL of the false messiahs/christs and ALL liars, i.e. those who believe in and promote LIES.
The Truth that has been personally shared isn't mine; it comes directly from Scripture UNADULTERATED by religious superstitions and traditions. That's why it can so easily be shown to be true through multiple references.

Those precious few, who genuinely seek the Truth, will find it, gladly accept it, and put it into practice in their own lives (Matt. 7:7-8; Matt. 13:3-17). Everyone else will continue to be enamored with lies, and attack that which is true (Isa. 30:8-15).

This is why most here, including you, offer nothing but personal opinion and personal (ad hominem) attacks, based solely upon ignorance and misconception. And all of that to deflect from the obvious lies that @Red Sky at Morning posted about the alleged martyring of Jesus' disciples, which never happened according to Scripture.

Why is it so difficult to simply look at what the Scripture actually says, and discuss THAT?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Your dude you follow is a cult leader NUFF SAID!!! Just stop it bro... Jim Jones would be so proud of you...Don't drink the kool aid.

Do you have a mirror in your house? Cuz this also pertains to you.

It would pertain to ALL of the false messiahs/christs and ALL liars, i.e. those who believe in and promote LIES.
The Book of Jude has much (albeit one chapter) to say about spiritual deceivers…

There is advice about such folk, as well as advice an exhortation to those living through deceptive times…

The Word of Promise® NKJV Audio Bible

21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Jude 1:21-25 NKJV
 

A Freeman

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The Book of Jude has much (albeit one chapter) to say about spiritual deceivers…

There is advice about such folk, as well as advice an exhortation to those living through deceptive times…

The Word of Promise® NKJV Audio Bible

21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Jude 1:21-25 NKJV
How is it possible that you don't see yourself as a spiritual deceiver, when you post things that are overtly false and operate as a cheerleader for the synagogue of Satan? Spiritually blind perhaps?

The entire Bible is about the PEOPLE Israel. It provides us with their history, with The Law that God gave us, with our refusal to keep our end of the Covenant and with the merciful gift of Christ to take away our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25), so that we may work WITH Him (Matt. 12:30) to eradicate sin everywhere on Earth (1 John 3:4-10).

Anyone who cannot answer such a simple, straightforward question -- like where does it tell us in Scripture that Jesus' disciples were martyred -- is obviously attempting to deceive others.

These things have been lovingly brought to your attention, while there's still time for you to do something about it. Please take the time to actually read and study what's been shared.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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How is it possible that you don't see yourself as a spiritual deceiver, when you post things that are overtly false and operate as a cheerleader for the synagogue of Satan? Spiritually blind perhaps?
I certainly believe you have convinced yourself of the rightness of your view. I simply disagree and am surprised that someone who looks to a commandment-keeping blend of Islam and Christianity would bother with this particular thread?
 
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