Differences between the Bible and Islam

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

You might be interested to know the origins of music and partying. It goes back to the Prophet Seth, son of Adam. After the incident between Cain & Abel, the families and progeny of both men were ordered to live separately. Here’s the rest of the story, it’s such an interesting take on things.

Story of Prophet Sheeth (A.S.) in Islam | Beginning of Music and Adultery

Story of Prophet Sheeth: The Prophet Adam’s (as) third son was named Sheeth. Sheeth (A.S.) was a gift; in fact, the name Sheeth means "GIFT"

wordofprophet.com

it’s important to note that Seth isn’t mentioned in The Quran but there’s Hadith confirming his prophethood. Also this story I’m about to link is based on old scriptures that scholars have stated we take with a pinch of salt, as they haven’t been confirmed nor denied by The Quran, so this story isn’t Islamic in its origin but referenced in Islam as a possible explanation from old scripture as to how music and dancing and adultery came about. So I’m hesitant to say it’s completely concrete as the evidence isn’t from The Quran but it does allude to things which are a reality today.

I thought this was interesting and would fit in in this thread.

The Bible does say that one of Cain's descendants invented music, but not many details are given

Genesis 4
17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 18And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. 19And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ

The first occurence of music being directly associated with sin happens much later, during the exodus

After Aaron makes a false idol golden calf:

Exodus 32
6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play
...
17And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. 20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.


The fact that from far away the music sounded like the noise of war (verse 17) was one of the reasons why i've read music with drums or a beat is worse as far as leading to immorality.


Couod you explain what you mean by "old scriptures that scholars have stated we take with a pinch of salt, as they haven’t been confirmed nor denied by The Quran"?

 

[Haich]

I mean, it's horrible that it occured. Although Uriah was most likely a mercenary (he was a hittite, not an israelite), he was a loyal man who chose to stay with his men rather than to take a break and go spend the night with his wife, something that could have saved his life.


But the Bible is full of tragic occurences, a fact that makes the Old Testament difficult to stomach for many Christians.

Also, as ive already posted, David was punished by God for his act.

And as ive said before. The fact that it is not flattering erases the possibility that it's a fabricated work.


The thing is, as a Christian i believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. These other men are not, simple as that. I realize non Christians don't believe that, but that is the reason why.

The prophets are flawed because we are all flawed. God can choose to use flawed people, and he often did.

It's funny that blind faith keeps getting brought up because im the last person i ever would have thought would become a Christian. I grew up atheist and had a rather negative opinion of Christians. The reason i know the Old Testament so well is because ive literally studied the Bible daily to make sense of it. The more i study it the more i am in awe of it.

I actually really respect people who have blind faith, but i wouldnt consider myself one of them.

I have to say, out of everything you wrote what really boggled me is ‘I actually respect people who have blind faith’. Why do you feel blind faith is worthy of emulating? Would you blindly follow someone who told you to eat an apple and you’ll gain riches? Blind faith is what happens when people don’t think beyond what’s being presented to them and don’t really consider the source of what’s being said but also the reliability of the source. There are Christians on this forum who have openly admitted support for Israel despite their brethren dying every day. That’s blind faith, blindly believing and following something without question.

Why do Christians study the Bible alone? Like what is the authority you use to make sense of context and meaning. For instance, when I’m stuck on a verse or chapter, I look at tafsir (scholarly commentaries with evidence backing up their claims). That’s why Muslims don’t disagree with matters of Quran, it’s clear and the studies that have been done on it are unanimous in their conclusions. It seems with Christianity anyway that everyone just follows what they think rather than what’s closer to the truth or has been proven. Your views aren’t definitively mainstream…I know Christians in real life that would contest a lot of what you say. Where’s the consensus on nuanced issues and who or what is the authority that settles this?

All I’m saying is we use science to measure aspects of the natural world. We should use the same approach when studying our scriptures and we shouldn’t be afraid of what we find. The Quran welcomes questions and criticisms, so I guess I’m applying the same to your Bible.

I don’t see how you believing in Jesus Christ is relevant to monotheism before Jesus. You can believe what you perceive to be true but the fact is that Jesus came much later and there is a huge amount of time from Adam to Jesus which you seem to have just written of as ‘oh well, not my problem’ That’s just woefully ignorant to be honest. You can’t expect people to take your scripture seriously if we just look at everything post Jesus. We believe Muhammad (pbuh) was the final prophet of God but we are concerned with all matters from Pre-Adam to Muhammad.

The God you proclaim to believe in is wise, just and has the ability to make his message spread with the entrusting of chosen men. It simply doesn’t make sense for the Old Testament or The Bible to completely decimate and tarnish the characters of men God chose. Like I said, it makes The Creator look sloppy and unable to make good decisions, if the men he chose are sleeping with their daughters after being tricked into drinking heavily or killing people to hide their adulterous ways.

 

[Haich]

I thought this was interesting and would fit in in this thread.

The Bible does say that one of Cain's descendants invented music, but not many details are given

Genesis 4
17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 18And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. 19And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ

The first occurence of music being directly associated with sin happens much later, during the exodus

After Aaron makes a false idol golden calf:

Exodus 32
6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play
...
17And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. 20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.


The fact that from far away the music sounded like the noise of war (verse 17) was one of the reasons why i've read music with drums or a beat is worse as far as leading to immorality.


Couod you explain what you mean by "old scriptures that scholars have stated we take with a pinch of salt, as they haven’t been confirmed nor denied by The Quran"?

It’s fascinating that this is also reference in the Bible. It gives us an insight into how music came about it.

I’m not convinced of by the war and drums argument, it seems like a reach. The verse just refers to it in passing like they’re just making a comparison to how loud the music was. I’d need to see more evidence to be honest. I think from what I’ve read up on in Islam about music, the general agreement is drums (specifically the daf drum, not drums with sticks) were played at the gathering that the Prophet Muhammad (as) was at (I believe I posted the Hadith a few days ago) so that’s the rationale behind the daf drum. The women played it on Eid I think and when the companions of the prophet objected, Muhammad told them it’s okay to play this drum and sing for celebrations. There is no evidence that other instruments are permissible in Islam but again, it’s a contentious issue as there isn’t a specified ban list in the Quran.

Yes, so with reference to scripture that pre dates The Quran, we lump them together as ‘Israeli riwayat’ which can be loosely translated as ‘the narratives of the children of Israel’. So when let’s say Ibn Kathir was writing his book ‘Stories of the prophets’, he would’ve referenced anything that wasn’t mentioned in The Quran about a prophet or event in history, as ‘Israeli riwayat’ aka it can’t be accepted as ultimate truth but it allows us to get a better picture of how things were at the time. We immediately dismiss things like prophets getting drunk or doing grave displays of disobedience or sin as we simply don’t believe God would appoint such turbulent men as his chosen ones.

 

[Zakat]

Anyhow, The Almighty Is Free from want whereas everybody has needs at the very least, including Jesus, in partial need of his mother Mary whose existence is dependent on God just as any other atom in existence.

God Establishes this interdependence for what would life be without our loved ones and near of kin, provided they be good at heart at least.


All this to say, only He Has The Right to be Worshipped, Adored, and Loved more than anybody and any thing.

This is coming soon.

He Is Beyond every imagination.

The Only True Good, Praiseworthy for Keeping every thing that we love in existence.

Only He Truly Existed Since Always, Suffices to Himself, The Miracle of miracles, never in need of any thing that we all are, The All-Loving, The Majestic, The Owner of Beauty, More Beautiful than everything beautiful combined.

Other than Him, nobody and nothing else!

Sorry for the long post!

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

I mean, it's horrible that it occured. Although Uriah was most likely a mercenary (he was a hittite, not an israelite), he was a loyal man who chose to stay with his men rather than to take a break and go spend the night with his wife, something that could have saved his life.

I hope you don't mind me adding to this. This comes from a lesson study we did on David and Bathsheba a few years ago.

"We cannot study the story of Uriah without looking at David. In David’s association with Uriah, we can see David at his worst. The author of Samuel does not sing the hero’s praises while ignoring his sins. The story of David, Bathsheba, and Uriah marks a turning point in the life and reign of David. Up to this point, David is portrayed as someone going from strength to strength. Second Samuel 11 depicts the beginning of David’s downfall.

Some may want to see in David’s sin an excuse for their own. However, the narrator emphasizes that sin has consequences and shows how many lives one particular sin affected. The first to suffer as a result of David’s sin is Uriah, followed by the child born to David and Bathsheba. David loses credibility in his family, and the repercussions spread from a family problem to a problem of national proportions. The chain reaction that David’s sin has set in motion widens to include r*pe (2 Samuel 13:14), murder (2 Samuel 13:28-29), and many lives lost in a rebellion (2 Samuel 15). Even if repentance gains God’s mercy, the author of the book of Samuel clearly points out to us that sin has grave consequences (2 Samuel 12:13-14).

The story of David, Bathsheba, and Uriah is told in a carefully structured way. The biblical author uses action words (often involving the verb to send) in order to contrast Uriah and David’s behavior. Let’s have a look at the structure of the story, based on the main action.

• David sends Joab to fight the Ammonites (11:1).
• David inquires about and sends for Bathsheba (vss. 3- 4).
• David commits adultery with Bathsheba (vs. 4).
• Bathsheba sends a message about her pregnancy (vs. 5).
• David sends for Uriah (vs. 6).
• Uriah refuses to sleep with Bathsheba (vs. 13).
• David sends the death warrant with Uriah (vss. 14-15).

As can be easily seen, “sending” is a very important activity in Second Samuel 11. When we send someone around, we normally have power over that person. Looked at from this angle, David is truly the most powerful character in our story. He does most of the sending. He controls the members of the cast. He shapes and destroys their lives. He looks like a typical ancient Near Eastern absolute monarch of his time. However, there is one thing that David does not control: sin. Although he seems to control the outward action, sin controls his choices and motivations."

And as ive said before. The fact that it is not flattering erases the possibility that it's a fabricated work.

Indeed. The Bible shows us warts and all what sin is like and its consequences. It shows us how much God hates sin and He wants us to be revolted by sin too (that is the first step on the road to repentance). Telling it like it is means we can absolutely trust the Bible because it does not cover up anything. However just like God forgave David of his sin, He can and is willing to save us if we repent and submit to Him. Its why Jesus died on the cross for us. He paid the penalty for our sins so we don't have to if accept Him.

It's funny that blind faith keeps getting brought up because im the last person i ever would have thought would become a Christian. I grew up atheist and had a rather negative opinion of Christians. The reason i know the Old Testament so well is because ive literally studied the Bible daily to make sense of it. The more i study it the more i am in awe of it.

No Christian should have blind faith. God gave us His inspired Word, the Bible to study so we can get to know, understand and love Him through the Holy Spirit of course. And communicating with God through prayer too.

 

[Haich]

ndeed. The Bible shows us warts and all what sin is like and its consequences. It shows us how much God hates sin and He wants us to be revolted by sin too (that is the first step on the road to repentance). Telling it like it is means we can absolutely trust the Bible because it does not cover up anything. However just like God forgave David of his sin, He can and is willing to save us if we repent and submit to Him. Its why Jesus died on the cross for us. He paid the penalty for our sins so we don't have to if accept Him.

Just wanted to add:

My issue isn’t the bloodshed and sin, there are also instances in the Quran which reference these topics. Some Christians I’ve spoken to are quick to point out these topics in the Quran but don’t acknowledge or refer to the graphic nature of their own Bible. It’s refreshing to see Christians on here to stand by the difficult content in the Bible. My issue was the issue of prophets and their sins.

You said: ‘However just like God forgave David of his sin, He can and is willing to save us if we repent and submit to Him’
Whilst I don’t agree with the biblical narrative of David I completely ageee that repentance to God is the way he forgives us (along with submitting to him) which for me is puzzling that you’ve typed as it almost negates the need of Jesus’ crucifixion. I know you mentioned Jesus dying for your sins in the next sentence but that doesn’t marry well with your point about repentance.

 

[phipps]

You said: ‘However just like God forgave David of his sin, He can and is willing to save us if we repent and submit to Him’
Whilst I don’t agree with the biblical narrative of David I completely ageee that repentance to God is the way he forgives us (along with submitting to him) which for me is puzzling that you’ve typed as it almost negates the need of Jesus’ crucifixion. I know you mentioned Jesus dying for your sins in the next sentence but that doesn’t marry well with your point about repentance.

Repentance and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins goes hand in hand according to the Bible. I'll try and explain although I'm not good so some of the words won't be mine.

The Bible tells us, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). And the Bible also tells us, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Roman 3:23).

The death that is written of above is not talking about the earthly death that most of us have to face in this world (aka the first death in the Bible). Its talking about eternal death. The death that all the wicked shall face in hellfire at the end of time.

According to Bible, we should all go to hell and die eternally but because of Jesus' death in our stead, we don't have to face eternal death. When we repent our sins and accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, we accept His gift of eternal life which he paid a high price for.

Why did Jesus have to die? The Bible tells us that Jesus' mission especially after and Adam and Eve sinned and sin came into this world, was to save mankind. He was “to give His life a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Peter 1:18).

Because of Christ’s life of perfect obedience to God’s will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and people may understand better how much God really loves us.

Why a blood sacrifice? Starting from the time Adam and Eve sinned, blood was always present when animal sacrifices occurred. God killed the first animal in the Bible to cloth Adam and Eve after they realised they were naked because of their sin. That animal represented Jesus' sacrifice that would atone for all mankind if they accept Him and His gift of salvation.

Blood rituals in the Israelite sacrificial system illustrated the crucial truth that, without blood, we would not have any chance to be forgiven our sins and to enter into the presence of God. Leviticus 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ " Blood was/is the only way to receive God’s mercy and to have community with Him. Christ’s blood obtains eternal Redemption, provides cleansing from sin, provides forgiveness, sanctification, and is the reason for the resurrection.

This is something as mere human beings we cannot fully understand. Its a mystery. God being God, does not die. Yet He offered Himself to die in our stead so we don't have to. He gave everything that He could to save us. We will never fully understand the mystery of Jesus' sacrifice until we go to heaven.

Those who don't repent and accept Jesus' sacrifice will pay for their own sins in hell and die eternally.

 

[Haich]

Repentance and Jesus dying on the cross for our sins goes hand in hand according to the Bible. I'll try and explain although I'm not good so some of the words won't be mine.

The Bible tells us, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). And the Bible also tells us, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Roman 3:23).

The death that is written of above is not talking about the earthly death that most of us have to face in this world (aka the first death in the Bible). Its talking about eternal death. The death that all the wicked shall face in hellfire at the end of time.

According to Bible, we should all go to hell and die eternally but because of Jesus' death in our stead, we don't have to face eternal death. When we repent our sins and accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, we accept His gift of eternal life which he paid a high price for.

Why did Jesus have to die? The Bible tells us that Jesus' mission especially after and Adam and Eve sinned and sin came into this world, was to save mankind. He was “to give His life a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 Peter 1:18).

Because of Christ’s life of perfect obedience to God’s will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and people may understand better how much God really loves us.

Why a blood sacrifice? Starting from the time Adam and Eve sinned, blood was always present when animal sacrifices occurred. God killed the first animal in the Bible to cloth Adam and Eve after they realised they were naked because of their sin. That animal represented Jesus' sacrifice that would atone for all mankind if they accept Him and His gift of salvation.

Blood rituals in the Israelite sacrificial system illustrated the crucial truth that, without blood, we would not have any chance to be forgiven our sins and to enter into the presence of God. Leviticus 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ " Blood was/is the only way to receive God’s mercy and to have community with Him. Christ’s blood obtains eternal Redemption, provides cleansing from sin, provides forgiveness, sanctification, and is the reason for the resurrection.

This is something as mere human beings we cannot fully understand. Its a mystery. God being God, does not die. Yet He offered Himself to die in our stead so we don't have to. He gave everything that He could to save us. We will never fully understand the mystery of Jesus' sacrifice until we go to heaven.

Those who don't repent and accept Jesus' sacrifice will pay for their own sins in hell and die eternally.

thank you for the explanation.

I guess that’s why many leave Christianity (in the west anyway). You summed it up here:

This is something as mere human beings we cannot fully understand. Its a mystery. God being God, does not die. Yet He offered Himself to die in our stead so we don't have to. He gave everything that He could to save us. We will never fully understand the mystery of Jesus' sacrifice until we go to heaven.

I don’t think it’s something the average human mind can comprehend because it doesn’t make much logical and coherent sense. You do have to have that degree of blind faith like Toxic said. I guess many people don’t want that they want more plausible answers.

Of course I disagree that the only way to atone for a sin is solely on blood sacrifice, repentance like you said in your previous post is also a way but I guess it’s considered not enough in your scripture which is a shame. I guess it’s hard to imagine that every time someone sinned they’d have to offer a blood sacrifice. Makes for a blood thirsty God? We too believe in blood sacrifice as there is mention of slaughtering in God’s name but it’s not something that we believe will save you from hellfire. Repentance and worship in one true God will.

 

[Zakat]

This I do not understand.

Nobody lived at the time of Jesus, yet pretend to know what went on then, and then post walls of text which spell out boring over and over again.

I like to believe I would still have been a staunch believer in an All-Powerful Being no matter what religion I was brought up to believe in.

 

[Maldarker]

- Some Christians actually would say no, the modern versions are no longer accurately God's word. I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's important to be vigilant when reading a modern translation, and if possinle to stick with the King James.

- blind faith in the gospel, believing just by hearing it. As opposed to people like me who have to read the entire thing many times and study it diligently. There are some Christians who don't require that in order to believe.

- no it's not as king James interpreted it. It was compiled during the reign of king James, using manuscripts from the city of Antioch for the New Testament and the Masoretic text for the Old Testament. King James did not write any if it.

And i already mentioned that there is so many version now because each version makes the publishers money and also because they remove verses, or even idiotic things like making it less "sexist". Many also spread the idea that the KJV is difficult to read, so the agenda of dumbing people down has heloed in this aspect.

I prefer discussing the issue out in the open. By personal drama i mean any comments about other posters on the forum.

By personal drama i mean any comments about other posters on the forum.

LOL wow he really doesn't have any other new tools to use does he. Did the same thing to me.

 

[Maldarker]

I mean surely they knew they weren’t the only city on earth. It does paint them as to be quite dim and unassuming. I’m not sure I’m convinced of that argument but I can see how you have deduced it via the quotes you’ve posted.
Isn’t there a general Christian interpretation of why they slept with their father?

They remind me of the tik tok girls of today nothing new under the sun

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I have to say, out of everything you wrote what really boggled me is ‘I actually respect people who have blind faith’. Why do you feel blind faith is worthy of emulating

Well, the Bible tells us that faith is a gift.
It also says that blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.

Blind faith is what happens when people don’t think beyond what’s being presented to them and don’t really consider the source of what’s being said but also the reliability of the source. There are Christians on this forum who have openly admitted support for Israel despite their brethren dying every day. That’s blind faith, blindly believing and following something without question.

Well, part of that is that when the Bible says
Genesis 12
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed

it has been interpreted and taught by some pastors as referring to the modern rothschild created country of israel.

So that's actually a good argument against having blind faith in pastors or teachers, and instead searching the scriptures ourselves.

As i've pointed out before on the forum, if a Christian believes in salvation through faith alone, supporting the country of israel is not a requirement, regardless of how a pastor tries to mental gymnastic it. The Bible does not say "saved by faith alone, except for the occasion of supporting genocide".

(And if the argument is that we have to "help" israel in order to bring on the end times, i find it kind of arrogant to presume that God would need us to do that when He is all powerful...)

And as for me personally (i'll let others speak for themselves), i don't see it as "Christians are being killed" - i see it as innocent people and a disproportionate amound of children are being killed. I sincerely hope others would care just as much if it is not people from their faith...

Why do Christians study the Bible alone? Like what is the authority you use to make sense of context and meaning. For instance, when I’m stuck on a verse or chapter, I look at tafsir (scholarly commentaries with evidence backing up their claims). That’s why Muslims don’t disagree with matters of Quran, it’s clear and the studies that have been done on it are unanimous in their conclusions. It seems with Christianity anyway that everyone just follows what they think rather than what’s closer to the truth or has been proven. Your views aren’t definitively mainstream…I know Christians in real life that would contest a lot of what you say. Where’s the consensus on nuanced issues and who or what is the authority that settles this?

That's the thing, studying the Bible IS closer to the truth than many "accepted" catholic (or mainline protestant) doctrines. A common allegation is that the catholics edited the Bible but that makes no sense, seeing as they contradict it on many occasions. The Bible is the final word, not the decisions of some political church councils.

I do read commentaries, and always fact check it with the Bible. I also keep in mind who the source of the commentary is, and any agendas they may have. For example, going back to the israel thing briefly, the background story of the scofield reference Bible is sketchy to say the least. (And no, i have never read the scofield Bible personally, just read about it)

Christians are free to contest what i say, but it always goes back to the Bible. What saith the scriptures?

All I’m saying is we use science to measure aspects of the natural world. We should use the same approach when studying our scriptures and we shouldn’t be afraid of what we find. The Quran welcomes questions and criticisms, so I guess I’m applying the same to your Bible.

Does the Quran really welcome criticisms and questions though?
I know i'm personally hesitant of asking too many because i don't want to be accused of islamaphobia...

I don’t see how you believing in Jesus Christ is relevant to monotheism before Jesus. You can believe what you perceive to be true but the fact is that Jesus came much later and there is a huge amount of time from Adam to Jesus which you seem to have just written of as ‘oh well, not my problem’ That’s just woefully ignorant to be honest. You can’t expect people to take your scripture seriously if we just look at everything post Jesus. We believe Muhammad (pbuh) was the final prophet of God but we are concerned with all matters from Pre-Adam to Muhammad.

Well, the entirety of the scriptures points to the coming messiah, Jesus Christ.
There are many prophecies found throughout scripture that were fulfilled in him.

This link has quite an extensive list of them

How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? | GotQuestions.org

How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? What are all of the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?

www.gotquestions.org

I do wish more Christians would study the Old Testament as well, but as i've said before, if they have sufficient faith to not have required it, more power to them.

The God you proclaim to believe in is wise, just and has the ability to make his message spread with the entrusting of chosen men. It simply doesn’t make sense for the Old Testament or The Bible to completely decimate and tarnish the characters of men God chose. Like I said, it makes The Creator look sloppy and unable to make good decisions, if the men he chose are sleeping with their daughters after being tricked into drinking heavily or killing people to hide their adulterous ways.

As ive said before, the Bible shows the consequences for sinful actions. If there are only cosequences but no sin predeeding them, that wouldn't make sense. Why was the kingdom divided? Why was David's reign so unstable? Why did the babylonian captivity occur? Why had the israelites fallen to idolatry long before the captivity? Etc.

Why would the Israelites write scriptures that make them look bad?

Humans are not perfect, so it makes sense that God can use imperfect men (and women, there are also some prophetesses, though minor characters).

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I’m not convinced of by the war and drums argument, it seems like a reach. The verse just refers to it in passing like they’re just making a comparison to how loud the music was

Yeah i understand, and it is not a widely accepted Christian doctrine to avoid music with drums, i was just pointing out what a commentator has said.

Yes, so with reference to scripture that pre dates The Quran, we lump them together as ‘Israeli riwayat’ which can be loosely translated as ‘the narratives of the children of Israel’. So when let’s say Ibn Kathir was writing his book ‘Stories of the prophets’, he would’ve referenced anything that wasn’t mentioned in The Quran about a prophet or event in history, as ‘Israeli riwayat’ aka it can’t be accepted as ultimate truth but it allows us to get a better picture of how things were at the time. We immediately dismiss things like prophets getting drunk or doing grave displays of disobedience or sin as we simply don’t believe God would appoint such turbulent men as his chosen ones.

Would it be accurate to say that "the narratives of the children of Israel" is synonymous with what we know as the Bible?

Actually, about that, i have a question: the link you posted previously about David made the claim that the Israelites commonly asked each other to divorce their wife so that the other man could marry her. Aside from the whole David issue and the power differential between a king and subject, this is not what the Bible describes at all, in fact was forbidden under the 10 commandments. Where did the Quran scholars get that theory from?

The link posted earlier acknowledges that David was coveting another man's wife, though it denies that any adultery happened.

Surah Sad 38:15-26 - Towards Understanding the Quran - Quran Translation Commentary - Tafheem ul Quran

www.islamicstudies.info

Overwhelmed by the thought he expressed the desire before her husband that he should divorce her. He did not see any harm in it because it was not looked upon as anything improper among the Israelites. It was an ordinary thing among them that if a person happened to like the wife of another, he would freely request him to give her up for him. Nobody minded such a request, and often it so happened that friends would divorce their wives for each other’s sake of their own accord, so that the other may marry her.

Coveting another man's wife was a sin under the Law, and part of the 10 commandments

Exodus 20
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

Deuteronomy 5
21Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's


Does the Quran or Islam teach that Old Testament Law either didn't exist or was from satan?

Does Islam teach the 10 comandments, and if so are they different from those found in the Bible?

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

It’s refreshing to see Christians on here to stand by the difficult content in the Bible.

Yes, as Christians i believe we should defend the Bible and explain the context, not apologize for it or deny it.

 

[Flarepath]

..It’s refreshing to see Christians on here to stand by the difficult content in the Bible..

It might be "difficult" for some people to understand Jesus, but that's their problem, as the ordinary people had no trouble whatsoever..-
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)

 

[Flarepath]

..Why do Christians study the Bible alone? Like what is the authority you use to make sense of context and meaning..

Because in the Bible we can hear THE WORDS OF GOD HIMSELF SPEAKING TO THE HUMAN RACE through the mouths of the prophets and Jesus..-
"God spoke in times past by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1-2)

 

[Flarepath]

I hope no one is taking this thread as an attempt to mock anything or anyone...

Right, we're simply being good samaritans..-
"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
The Lord's servant must not quarrel, instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will" (Bible: 2 Tim 2:23-26)

 

[Daze]

Nobody lived at the time of Jesus, yet pretend to know what went on then, and then post walls of text which spell out boring over and over again.

I agree. Simple concepts do not require books to explain them.

Hear Israel, your god is one. (Duet 6:4)

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13)

Short, simple, easy to comprehend. Doesn't need all the mental gymnastics.


On a side note, I didn't know there were 2 KJV's.



That is one muddy pond that only gets darker with time.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

On a side note, I didn't know there were 2 KJV's.

View attachment 95547

That is one muddy pond that only gets darker with time.

The new KJV is not the KJV (obviously, but needs to be pointed out).

While the new KJV claims ro have been based on the same manuscrips as the KJV, instead of the manuscripts the newer versions are based on (alexandrian), there are some verses on which they follow the alexandrian manuscripts. The new KJV is closer to the KJV than the other new versions, but is not the same, and many verses have been changed.

This is a good comparison chart.

New King James Version Comparison Chart - New King James Version Changes and Omissions

Do you have a pure Holy Bible from the preserved text of Christianity? Do you have an impure Bible adulterated by modern scholarship? This is a Christian ministry dedicated to exposing the spiritual deception of the New Age movement within the church.

www.angelfire.com

New King James Version Omissions
NKJV omits the word "Lord" 66 times
NKJV omits the word "God" 51 times
NKJV omits the word "heaven" 50 times
NKJV omits the word "repent" 44 times
NKJV omits the word "blood" 23 times
NKJV omits the word "hell" 22 times
NKJV omits the word "JEHOVAH" entirely
NKJV omits the word "new testament" entirely
NKJV omits the word "damnation" entirely
NKJV omits the word "devils" entirely
NKJV ignored the KJV Greek Textus Receptus over 1200 times
NKJV replaced the KJV Hebrew (ben Chayyim) with the corrupt Stuttgart edition (ben Asher) Old Testament

NKJV Demotes Jesus Christ
	NKJV	KJV
Luke 13:8	Sir	Lord
Matthew 18:26	before him saying, Master	and worshipped him saying, Lord
Matthew 20:20	kneeling down	worshipping him
Matthew 26:64	right hand of the Power	right hand of power
Genesis 22:8	God will provide for himself the lamb	God will provide himself a lamb
John 8:35	a son	the Son
Colossians 2:2	the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ	the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ (Trinity)
Matthew 8:19 et al.	Teacher	Master
Matthew 19:16	Good Teacher	Good Master
Matthew 22:16	Teacher	Master
Matthew 23:8	One is your Teacher, the Christ	one is your Master, even Christ
Matthew 23:10	And do not be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, the Christ	Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ

NKJV Copies Jehovah Witness Version
	NKJV	KJV
Demotes Jesus Christ​
Acts 3:13	His Servant Jesus	his Son Jesus
Acts 3:26	His Servant Jesus	his Son Jesus
Acts 4:27	holy Servant Jesus	holy child Jesus
Acts 4:30	holy Servant Jesus	holy child Jesus
Colossians 1:15	the firstborn over all creation	the firstborn of every creature
Mark 2:15	OMITTED	Jesus
Hebrews 4:8	Joshua	Jesus
Acts 7:45	Joshua	Jesus
2 Thessalonians 3:5	patience of Christ	patient waiting for Christ
Demotes Trinity​
Acts 17:29	Divine Nature	Godhead
Philippians 4:20	our God and Father	God and our Father
Revelation 1:6	his God and Father	God and his Father
Colossians 3:17	God the Father through Him	God and the Father by him
John 14:16	Helper	Comforter
John 14:26	Helper	Comforter
John 15:26	Helper	Comforter
John 16:7	Helper	Comforter
Works/Progressive Salvation​
1 Corinthians 11:1	Imitate Christ	followers...of Christ
Romans 3:3	faithfulness	faith
Romans 11:30	disobedient	not believed
Romans 11:32	disobedient	unbelief
1 Corinthians 1:18	are being saved	are saved
2 Corinthians 2:15	are being saved	are saved
Ephesians 2:8	have been saved	are...saved

NKJV Supports New Age Ideas
	NKJV	KJV
Works Salvation​
Matthew 7:14	difficult is the way	narrow is the way
Galatians 5:22	faithfulness	faith
1 John 5:13	may continue to believe	may believe
Ecclesiastes 5:20	God keeps him busy	God answereth him
Progressive Ages​
Matthew 12:32	age to come	world to come
Matthew 13:39 et al.	end of the age	end of the world
Acts 15:18	from eternity	from the beginning of the world
1 Corinthians 15:45	Adam became a living being	Adam was made a living soul
Pantheism, Androgyny, Gender Equity​
Luke 7:19, 20	the Coming One	he that should come
Matthew 11:3	the Coming One	he that should come
John 7:18 et al.	the One	he, his
John 4:24	God is spirit	God is a spirit
2 Corinthians 2:10	presence	person
Genesis 2:18	helper comparable to him	help meet for him
Self-Esteem ("The devil made me do it.")​
Philippians 3:21	lowly bodies	vile bodies
1 John 5:19	whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one	whole world lieth in wickedness
Luke 11:4	deliver us from the evil one	deliver us from evil
Matthew 5:37	the evil one	of evil
2 Corinthians 1:12	boast	rejoicing
Religious Tolerance - One World Religion​
Acts 24:14	sect	heresy
Acts 17:22	very religious	too superstitious
Psalms 19:1	nations	heathen
Acts 8:9	astonished	bewitched
Acts 25:19	religion	superstition
2 Corinthians 10:5	casting down arguments	casting down imaginations
Titus 3:10	Reject a divisive man	an heretic...reject
Relative/Subjective Standards​
Matthew 5:32 et al.	sexual immorality	fornication
1 Corinthians 6:9	homosexual (catamites only)	effeminate
omit all	perverted persons	sodomite
2 Timothy 3:17	complete	perfect
New Age Name Game/Jargon​
Matthew 23:10 et al.	the Christ	Christ
Psalms 109:6	omit	Satan
Romans 6:24 et al.	slave	servant
omit 22x	hades	hell
omit 81x	demon(s)	devil(s)
Mark of the Beast​
Revelation 13:16 et al.	a mark on their hand	a mark in their hand
1 Samuel 13:21	the charge...was a pim (positive identification microchip)	they had a file...for the coulters

NKJV Uses Harder Words than KJV
	NKJV Hard Word	KJV Easy Word
2 Corinthians 3:12	we use great boldness of speech	we use great plainness of speech
Amos 5:21	savor	smell
2 Corinthians 5:2	habitation	house
Ecclesiastes 2:3	gratify	give
Isaiah 28:1, 4	verdant	fat
Isaiah 34:6	overflowing	fat
Isaiah 13:12	mortal	man
Deuteronomy 28:50	elderly	old
Judges 19:29	limb	bones
Job 2:10	adversity	evil
1 Samuel 16:14	distressing	evil
Jeremiah 19:3	catastrophe	evil
2 Kings 22:16	calamity	evil
Ecclesiastes 12:1	difficult	evil
Ecclesiastes 8:5	harmful	evil
Ezekiel 5:16	terrible	evil

(I have never read the site im linking this from before, so posting this link is not necessarily a doctrinal endorsement of anything that may be found elsewhere on the site)

 

[Daze]

The new KJV is not the KJV (obviously, but needs to be pointed out).

While the new KJV claims ro have been based on the same manuscrips as the KJV, instead of the manuscripts the newer versions are based on (alexandrian), there are some verses on which they follow the alexandrian manuscripts. The new KJV is closer to the KJV than the other new versions, but is not the same, and many verses have been changed.

This is a good comparison chart.

New King James Version Comparison Chart - New King James Version Changes and Omissions

Do you have a pure Holy Bible from the preserved text of Christianity? Do you have an impure Bible adulterated by modern scholarship? This is a Christian ministry dedicated to exposing the spiritual deception of the New Age movement within the church.

www.angelfire.com

(I have never read the site im linking this from before, so posting this link is not necessarily a doctrinal endorsement of anything that may be found elsewhere on the site)

Depending on what source you use, you'll get a different number. But it's undeniable there are a lot of Bibles.





The very word "version" should be problematic for you.

Johns version and Mikes version is a story being told by 2 separate sources. Why do we need two separate accounts? Concerning the Bible, why do we need 500 separate accounts? If KJV is the only truth, why do we need 2 separate accounts?

Take a guess how many versions of the Quran there are?


I get it, you want to defend your book and claim it's infallible. But the only way to do so is to ignore the facts.
A lot like the claims of blind faith you've made. Just close your eyes and believe. Right? Turn off and shut down all logical faculties.

The Bible is changed, this is a fact. They literally change it today. Considering it is a 2000-year-old Book, only God knows how many edits have been made to it. Jews reference your book. In fact, they change it. Why don't they believe Jesus is God's son?

I'm not sure why you are replying to me anyway, as I was talking to Zakat. I do not want to argue with you Toxic because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this.