another gospel ("Christianity")

[Artful Revealer]

Those parameters, meaning free will? Jesus is shown in the Gospel to have had it, and so it is an important part of the Gospel. If we were to choose to leave out those parameters, i.e. Jesus being shown to have been gifted with free will by God, and that with that he chose to keep his Father's commandment, then we would be leaving out an important part of the Gospel Message and would end up with an incomplete Gospel. We would be choosing to ignore an important part of it and therefore, also would be losing the meaning, of that which we would choose to ignore.

Higher dimension: God
Lower dimension: the physical universe

God enters the physical universe as a human.

Higher dimension: human
Lower dimension: the VC forums

Human enters the VC forums as a forum account.

Will is not a necessary property here.

 

[The Sojourner]

A notepad is not another dimension.

 

[A Freeman]

We're now seven pages into this thread, without a single shred of proof that Babylonian mystery religion known as "Christianity" isn't another 'gospel', exactly as Paul said it is.

There still hasn't been one single verse shared by so-called Christians where Christ-Jesus ever actually claimed to be God. Not one.

There still hasn't been one single verse shared by so-called Christians where Christ-Jesus ever actually claimed to have done away with The Law. Not one.

There still hasn't been one single verse shared by so-called Christians where Christ-Jesus ever actually claimed to bring a different doctrine or a different Law that supposedly superseded God's Law. Not one.

Not one single verse has been shared by so-called Christians where Christ-Jesus ever actually claimed to redefine the word "repentance" to mean anything other than stop sinning and strive for perfection in keeping God's Law (found in the first five books of the Bible), to DO God's Will here on Earth, as it is in heaven.

Are the above tenets not central to "Christian" doctrine/tradition? And yet NONE of these things are actually found in the Gospel accounts.

Hundreds upon hundreds of verses have been provided or referenced in this thread alone which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is not nor was not God. Nor did Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, ever claim to be equal to or the same individual as Christ's Father and God.

Any honest, open-minded individual who has actually read and studied the Scripture should immediately recognize that "Christianity" doesn't follow nor obey the Gospel that Christ brought when He was sent here to incarnate Jesus.

May our heavenly Father, which art in heaven and is the One TRUE and ONLY God there is, bless you.

 

[A Freeman]

According to God, the Father and God of our Lord Christ, the Saviour:

A father really is a father, and a son is really a son, whether in heaven (the spiritual) realm or on earth (the human realm).

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is NOT [the author] of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all communities of the holy people.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Artful Revealer]

A notepad is not another dimension.

That's true, but a notepad is an object within our physical realm. The things that maintain the internet, ie. the hardware, are tangible objects in our physical realm. We can observe them, manipulate them physically. We can screw open a server and put our hand in it. But we can't put our hand in the internet, which as a digital space, although inextricably linked to our physical universe, is a different dimension. God can't put his metaphorical hand in the universe either and squeeze our planet between thumb and index. Does that take away from God's omnipotence? No. This is just the law of physics in our physical universe. Can you just walk into a video game as yourself? No, you have to use the character generator to do so.

Things in digital space are a different dimension, because everything in that digital space isn't subject to time, aging, oxydation. They don't occupy actual space. They don't consist of atoms and molecules. So no, a notepad is not a different dimension. The digital space definitely is.

 

[A Freeman]

God enters the physical universe as a human.

Numbers 23:19 GOD [IS] NOT A MAN (human), that He should lie; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (i.e. there has never been, nor ever will be a time when God is subjected to human limitations and isn't ALL-POWERFUL)?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Numbers 23:19 GOD [IS] NOT A MAN (human), that He should lie; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do [it]? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good (i.e. there has never been, nor ever will be a time when God is subjected to human limitations and isn't ALL-POWERFUL)?

Sorry, I'm a human. I don't take theology from a digital bot.

 

[The Sojourner]

That's true, but a notepad is an object within our physical realm. The things that maintain the internet, ie. the hardware, are tangible objects in our physical realm. We can observe them, manipulate them physically. We can screw open a server and put our hand in it. But we can't put our hand in the internet, which as a digital space, although inextricably linked to our physical universe, is a different dimension. God can't put his metaphorical hand in the universe either and squeeze our planet between thumb and index. Does that take away from God's omnipotence? No. This is just the law of physics in our physical universe. Can you just walk into a video game as yourself? No, you have to use the character generator to do so.

Things in digital space are a different dimension, because everything in that digital space isn't subject to time, aging, oxydation. They don't occupy actual space. They don't consist of atoms and molecules. So no, a notepad is not a different dimension. The digital space definitely is.

You imagine it to be, but it is not. The internet is just a notepad. It may be a sophisticated notepad by human standards, but that is still what it is. The digital space you talked of exists only in the imagination. The whole internet, which is stored as charges in transistors and other physical media, is all physically existing in this dimension. It's just complex, so that to a human mind, it appears to be something other. Digital space is imagined, like you might imagine a story written on an old school paper notepad is really taking place in another space. The internet is a fancy notepad, but it is still a notepad.

 

[Artful Revealer]

You imagine it to be, but it is not. The internet is just a notepad. It may be a sophisticated notepad by human standards, but that is still what it is. The digital space you talked of exists only in the imagination. The whole internet, which is stored as charges in transistors and other physical media, is all physically existing in this dimension. It's just complex, so that to a human mind, it appears to be something other. Digital space is imagined, like you might imagine a story written on an old school paper notepad is really taking place in another space. The internet is a fancy notepad, but it is still a notepad.

I'm going to concede a point, as in, "dimension" might not be the proper concept for what I'm trying to convey here. Perhaps realm would be more accurate.

 

[A Freeman]

Sorry, I'm a human. I don't take theology from a digital bot.

Until you're born again, as your true, spiritual self, not only recognizing but knowing that you are NOT human, you will continue to see everything upside down and backwards, through human eyes.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Until you're born again, as your true, spiritual self, not only recognizing but knowing that you are NOT human, you will continue to see everything upside down and backwards, through human eyes.

Hate to break it to you, but you're by no means a "spiritual" human. You're a deeply legalistic human unable to grasp that Jesus came to free us from the bondage of the Law. In the controversies between Jesus and the Pharisees, you would've sided with the Pharisees, exclusively.

 

[A Freeman]

Hate to break it to you, but you're by no means a "spiritual" human.

There is no such things as "a 'spiritual' human", which is an oxymoron, as they (the spirit and the flesh) are at war with each other. The flesh is flesh/human (controlled by Satan, through the ego) and the spirit is Spirit (motivated by God via His Holy Spirit).

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (a human); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spiritual-Being).

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] DEATH; but to be spiritually minded [is] LIFE and peace (John 3:5-6).
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.

The flesh (human) can NEVER understand ANYTHING spiritual, because it lacks the spiritual facilities to do so. That is why it sees everything upside down and backwards, i.e. the opposite of reality.

You're a deeply legalistic human unable to grasp that Jesus came to free us from the bondage of the Law. In the controversies between Jesus and the Pharisees, you would've sided with the Pharisees, exclusively.

You have it exactly backwards, again, seeing this through HUMAN eyes. Christ (the Spiritual-Being and Son of God) came in the body of Jesus to free us from our BONDAGE TO SIN AND DEATH in the ONLY Way possible: by returning us to THE LAW OF LIBERTY AND LIFE, exactly as it says in the Gospel accounts. Please see for yourself (if you are able to do so, with spiritual eyes).

King of kings' Bible - John 8:12-25 (John 8:21-34 KJV)
8:12 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, AND SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS: where I go, ye cannot come.
8:13 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Where I go, ye cannot come.
8:14 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I AM NOT FROM THIS WORLD.
8:15 I said therefore unto you, that YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
8:16 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the Same] that I said unto you from the beginning.
8:17 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but He that sent me is True; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.
8:18 They understood not that he spoke to them of the Father.
8:19 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of Man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
8:20 And He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.
8:21 As he spoke these words, many believed him.
8:22 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed him, If ye continue in my Word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
8:23 And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you FREE.
8:24 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
8:25 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the prisoner of sin.

But you don't believe Jesus, do you?

On the subject of sin, being truly born again (of God, from above) and what it truly means to be liberated from sin:-

1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The pharisees very obviously did recognize nor know Christ, as evidenced by them NOT keeping The Law, exactly as Christ told us through the mouth of Jesus.

John 7:15-19
7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man "Letters", having never been taught?
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is NOT mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh His glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
7:19 Did not Moses give you The Law, AND [YET] NONE OF YOU KEEPETH THE LAW? Why go ye about to kill me?

It is arrogance (the ego/"self") which blinds one to the most obvious facts, e.g. that the pharisees were very obviously breaking The Law when they manipulated the Roman government into murdering Jesus, who very obviously had committed no crime according to God's Law.

 

[A Freeman]

The TRUE Gospel Message that Christ was sent by Father (God) to deliver in the flesh of Jesus:-

- BELIEVE THE WORD/TRUTH FROM GOD DELIVERED BY HIS MESSENGER/ANGEL/FIRSTBORN SON: CHRIST (Matt. 10:32-40; John 1:1-14; 14:1-7)
- REPENT OF SIN, i.e. CHANGE FROM OUR SINFUL, EVIL WAYS TO GOD'S LOVING, LAWFUL WAYS (Mark 1:14-15; Luke 5:32)
- LOVE ONE ANOTHER BY KEEPING THE LAW THAT GOD GAVE US (Matt. 5:17-20; Mark 12:29-31)

 

[Artful Revealer]

There is no such things as "a 'spiritual' human", which is an oxymoron, as they (the spirit and the flesh) are at war with each other. The flesh is flesh/human (controlled by Satan, through the ego) and the spirit is Spirit (motivated by God via His Holy Spirit).

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh (a human); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spiritual-Being).

Every man is made of flesh, soul and spirit. Even the Bible says this:

Job 12
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the spirit of all flesh of man.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] DEATH; but to be spiritually minded [is] LIFE and peace (John 3:5-6).
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.

The flesh (human) can NEVER understand ANYTHING spiritual, because it lacks the spiritual facilities to do so. That is why it sees everything upside down and backwards, i.e. the opposite of reality.

These categories (carnally-minded / spiritually-minded) concern one's disposition to God. This is elaborated upon by Valentinius who distinguished these categories as pneumatic (spiritual), psychic (soulful) and hylic (material).

No human is predetermined to remain within any of these categories. One's belonging depends on one's behaviour and disposition to God's word.

It is arrogance (the ego/"self") which blinds one to the most obvious facts, e.g. that the pharisees were very obviously breaking The Law when they manipulated the Roman government into murdering Jesus, who very obviously had committed no crime according to God's Law.

Does the Law prohibit work on Sabbath? (Don't dodge this question this time)

 

[A Freeman]

Every man is made of flesh, soul and spirit. Even the Bible says this:

The Soul -- which is the REAL you -- IS the spiritual-Being incarnated within the flesh.

Every human+Being consists of a human (flesh) and a Being (spiritual-Being/Soul). The flesh can be influenced/tempted by Satan, and the spiritual-Being/Soul can be guided by God's Holy Spirit, or led by Satan, through the flesh.

That is why Christ, through the mouth of Jesus, did NOT say the flesh is flesh, the spirit is spirit and the soul is soul; instead Jesus used the terms spirit and soul INTERCHANGEABLY when speaking of the individual soul/spirit.

Job 12
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the spirit of all flesh of man.

Job 12:10 (KJV)
12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

These categories (carnally-minded / spiritually-minded) concern one's disposition to God.

Agreed. To be carnally-minded is to see and think about things from a human perspective (what serves the flesh and its selfish will) and to be spiritually-minded is to see and think about things from a spiritual perspective (what serves God and the greater, common good - as defined in The Law that God gave us).

This is elaborated upon by Valentinius who distinguished these categories as pneumatic (spiritual), psychic (soulful) and hylic (material).

Another spiritually blind guide that Jesus told us to leave alone (Matt. 15:13-14)?

No human is predetermined to remain within any of these categories. One's belonging depends on one's behaviour and disposition to God's word.

If by that statement you mean that no Soul/spiritual-Being is predetermined to remain spiritually asleep in the human condition, then agreed.

Our behaviour and disposition toward God is exactly what each of us will be judged by on the Last Day (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 20:12-15), i.e. whether we choose to obey God and His Law, or whether we continue to obey Satan and the made-up legislation and traditions of men that he has influenced.

Does the Law prohibit work on Sabbath? (Don't dodge this question this time)

It wasn't dodged previously; you were given the same answer that Jesus provided to the human who was trying to justify himself (Luke 10:25:29), which is what you are trying to do, isn't it?

What is written in The Law? how readest thou?

 

[Lyfe]

The true gospel is simple. Man has been alienated from God since the fall. Only in Christ are our sins pardoned. Only in Christ is our connection to God restored. Only in Christ do we receive adoption into God's kingdom as sons and daughters. Only through Christ are we divinely restored into the image of God. Only in Christ is our healing and the restitution of all things.

Man is spiritually dead and must be reborn. Christ bore the punishment for our sin on the cross and by receiving him and calling upon him for salvation we pass from death to life. Christ stood in the court room and took upon himself the punishment for your sins. He died and was punished in your place.

 

[Lyfe]

 

[Lyfe]

 

[Artful Revealer]

Job 12:10 (KJV)
12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

breath: breath of life = spirit

Hebrew: wə·rū·aḥ & rū·aḥ

Greek: πνεῦμα (pneuma = spirit)

It wasn't dodged previously; you were given the same answer that Jesus provided to the human who was trying to justify himself (Luke 10:25:29), which is what you are trying to do, isn't it?

What is written in The Law? how readest thou?

Luke 10

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

This is the Law of Christ.

What does the Law of the Torah say about working on Sabbath? Is it prohibited or not?

 

[elsbet's cat ^. .^]

Does the Law prohibit work on Sabbath? (Don't dodge this question this time)

It wasn't dodged previously; you were given the same answer that Jesus provided to the human who was trying to justify himself (Luke 10:25:29), which is what you are trying to do, isn't it?

What is written in The Law? how readest thou?

Luke 10:25:29

25And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him (Jesus) to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”​

​

26He (Jesus) said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?”​

​

27And he answered,​

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”​

​

28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”​

​

29But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”​

Spoiler: 30. Jesus replied...

30Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35And the next day he took out two denariic and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”

In the Old Covenant, work was prohibited on the Sabbath.

Ritual Law v. Moral Law

The Mark of the Beast according to the Bible.

666 The last two verses of Revelation 13 say, "... and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666"...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

Link

Interesting subject, to be sure.
...