another gospel ("Christianity")

[The Sojourner]

John

14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[Artful Revealer]

How many Christians don't even see that Christ was/is a separate individual

You sound like a JAHtruther now.

John

14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Is Thomas greater than @The Sojourner ?

Lemme ask you a question:

These words that I see on my screen that belong to @The Sojourner , did they exist before they were manifested in this VC universe?

 

[Maldarker]

@Artful Revealer

I don't think logic works with a fanatical person.

 

[A Freeman]

John 10:17-18
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[The Sojourner]

You sound like a JAHtruther now.

Well, how many individuals do you then believe are needed, at a minimum, in order for a relationship to be able to exist?

For reference, a common set of definitions for the word relationship, from an online dictionary, reads as follows:

relationship

rĭ-lā′shən-shĭp″
noun

1. The condition or fact of being related; connection or association.
2. Connection by blood or marriage; kinship.
3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other.

(2. is irrelevant and unsuitable to be used for this instance, because there exists no blood relationship between the Father and the Son, since both the Father and the Son are Spirit Beings and are not human.)

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship [Him] with their spirit (Being) and in Truth.

Is Thomas greater than @The Sojourner ?

Maybe, but "@The Sojourner" has never claimed to be Thomas' son.

If I were to log on to VC using my @The Sojourner VC account, and then said to other people who are similarly logged on using their accounts, that I was the son of Thomas, and that Thomas had sent me, then I would be a liar. Wouldn't I?

We know that God cannot lie:

Numbers 23:19
King James Version
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Titus 1:2
King James Version
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Hebrews 6:18
King James Version
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Matthew
17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
17:5 While he yet spoke, behold, a "Bright Cloud" overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the "Cloud", which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Lemme ask you a question:

These words that I see on my screen that belong to @The Sojourner , did they exist before they were manifested in this VC universe?

The words you see posted under the moniker @The Sojourner, belong to me.

But let me ask you:

Is VC really a separate universe that is apart from the reality that we all exist in right now, as actual persons? I am right here where I am and you are right there where you are, we just have an unknown number of units of measurement of distance between our physical locations.

Or is VC simply a digital online communal blackboard, in and part of the very same universe that we are currently existing in and finding ourselves in, that we are all able to type messages on using physical keyboards in real time, that then get posted under our digital VC pen names, that are called accounts?

 

[The Sojourner]

@Artful Revealer

I don't think logic works with a fanatical person.

Agreed.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Maybe, but "@The Sojourner" has never claimed to be Thomas' son.

If I were to log on to VC using my @The Sojourner VC account, and then said to other people who are similarly logged on using their accounts, that I was the son of Thomas, and that Thomas had sent me, then I would be a liar. Wouldn't I?

It's only a lie if you limit the meaning of Son to 'human male genetic offspring'. We clearly both understand that the divine Father-Son relationship doesn't concern biological organisms, given the fact you quoted John 4:24 "God is Spirit" and your claim that Christ is Spirit. Father and Son in the divine sense are metaphorical concepts denoting a relationship that are made comprehensible to the human mind. So, metaphorically ...

Is @The Sojourner not your "child"? Did you not beget @The Sojourner ? Is @The Sojourner not the incarnation of your word (<- the Son) on this platform?

The words you see posted under the moniker @The Sojourner, belong to me.

Who's you? A human? How would we know if we were all mere AI bots with no knowledge or experience of human reality?

And these words I'm seeing? Are they not perceivable to me because a human has made them manifest in this non-human digital dimension? Did they not become "flesh" (pixels in this instance) when a human pressed 'Post Reply'? But where is this human? I don't see him. If you didn't decide to let your Word become incarnate here, chances are I would have never come into contact with it. I wouldn't even have known you existed. You revealed yourself to me. @The Sojourner could say: "If you hear me, you hear the human". And if you would add a picture of yourself in your avatar, it could say "if you've seen me (the son), you've seen the human" (the father in heaven).

But let me ask you:

Is VC really a separate universe that is apart from the reality that we all exist in right now, as actual persons?

The internet is a different dimension. You or I or any other human cannot enter this dimension in his natural state no matter how far technology advances. You cannot transform your biological body into a pixelated digital entity. But you can add a human nature to a digital entity created within that dimension, like a hypostatic union. You can manifest a portion of yourself in this realm by letting your word or your image (Jesus is both the Word and the Image of God) become incarnate. On VC you do this in the form of a forum account, through which you spread your message. You don't literally walk onto the VC scene. God did so in the form of a human. He didn't stick His materialized immaterial head through the material clouds with thunder and lightning.

I am right here where I am and you are right there where you are

Yes, we are both transcendent beings from the internet's point of view.

we just have an unknown number of units of measurement of distance between our physical locations.

Yet we are both immanent here within the internet as @The Sojourner and @Artful Revealer .

 

[The Sojourner]

It's only a lie if you limit the meaning of Son to 'human male genetic offspring'. We clearly both understand that the divine Father-Son relationship doesn't concern biological organisms, given the fact you quoted John 4:24 "God is Spirit" and your claim that Christ is Spirit. Father and Son in the divine sense are metaphorical concepts denoting a relationship that are made comprehensible to the human mind. So, metaphorically ...

Is @The Sojourner not your "child"? Did you not beget @The Sojourner ? Is @The Sojourner not the incarnation of your word (<- the Son) on this platform?

Christ told everyone that he was Spirit just like his Father is Spirit, for instance when he said "I am not from this world". Everyone could know that Jesus (the human) was from this world because he was born here. So Christ was speaking of his true Self, which is not human but is Spirit, like his Father is Spirit.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Christ told everyone that he was Spirit just like his Father is Spirit, for instance when he said "I am not from this world". Everyone could know that Jesus (the human) was from this world because he was born here. So Christ was speaking of his true Self, which is not human but is Spirit, like his Father is Spirit.

@The Sojourner (a forum account) told everyone (all the other forum accounts) that he was human just like his Father is human, for instance when he said "I am not from this world" (the VC forums). Everyone (all forum accounts) could know that @The Sojourner (a forum account) was from this world (the VC forums) because he was born (created) here. So @The Sojourner was speaking of his true Self, which is not a forum account but is human, like his Father is human.

 

[The Sojourner]

Yes, we are both transcendent beings from the internet's point of view.

The internet does not have a point of view, it is only a collection of information/data from the real world that is stored on interlinked servers.

Yet we are both immanent here within the internet as @The Sojourner and @Artful Revealer

Or rather, our messages exist on the message boards but we exist as people where we are in our real lives.

The internet is a different dimension. You or I or any other human cannot enter this dimension in his natural state no matter how far technology advances. You cannot transform your biological body into a pixelated digital entity.

The internet consists of data/information stored on servers and was designed to be a communications tool.

 

[The Sojourner]

In the movie, the Matrix was a program written by AI that was written by humans. It became so convincing that people plugged into it believed it was real. It was not the real world though.

 

[A Freeman]

When people who don't know what they're talking about realize they cannot dazzle you with brilliance, they attempt to baffle you with B.S.

Our Reality is very simple. Like kind produces like kind.

The Creator and King Ruler of the Universe, aka "Father", "God" and "The Most High", Whose Name is "I AM" (YHWH in Hebrew) is a SPIRITUAL-BEING (Num. 23:19; John 4:24). ALL of God's Sons (billions of them - Rev. 12:3-4) are likewise SPIRITUAL-BEINGS, including His Firstborn/First-Created Son, Prince Michael (Christ). God does NOT beget human children.

Spiritual-Beings are immortal and extra-terrestrial, i.e. they are NOT OF THIS WORLD.

Humans procreate other humans, with female humans giving birth to human babies, just as Mary gave birth to Jesus in Bethlehem of Judea, here on Earth. There are reportedly around 8 billion humans here on Earth. Humans can NEVER procreate gods (spiritual-Beings - Ps. 82:6), anymore than a cat can give birth to a horse.

Humans are mortal, born of this world, destined to live only in this world, and to die in this world.

When God places a spiritual-Being inside of a human, they together become a human+Being, so that the spiritual-Being can feel and experience everything that the human body feels and experiences, including its limitations. Every spiritual-Being ever sent to Earth, including Jesus+Christ, has gone through this process, where God places us (the spiritual-Being/Soul) into a human body (Gen. 2:7). And, as God Himself said, He can NEVER be a human, nor the son of a human, because He would cease to be All-Powerful, which likewise can NEVER happen.

God and His Anointed One (Christ) are SPIRITUAL Father and Son. God MADE Christ, exactly as it says in Scripture.

 

[Artful Revealer]

In the movie, the Matrix was a program written by AI that was written by humans. It became so convincing that people plugged into it believed it was real. It was not the real world though.

You're clutching at straws.

The Matrix is a gnostic theme, basically reiterating my point, that this universe is not our real world and that we have transcendent origins and rely on intervention from the real world to wake us up, which is what Jesus basically did. So what exactly is your argument here?

 

[Artful Revealer]

The internet does not have a point of view, it is only a collection of information/data from the real world that is stored on interlinked servers.


Or rather, our messages exist on the message boards but we exist as people where we are in our real lives.


The internet consists of data/information stored on servers and was designed to be a communications tool.

I think that not even you consider these arguments valid as if stating that "from our universe's perspective, God is transcendent" is somehow not a correct statement. Or acting as if our Universe does not consist of data/information. You should just concede.

 

[The Sojourner]

You're clutching at straws.

I think that not even you consider these arguments valid as if stating that "from our universe's perspective, God is transcendent" is somehow not a correct statement. Or acting as if our Universe does not consist of data/information. You should just concede.

The Matrix is a gnostic theme, basically reiterating my point, that this universe is not our real world and that we have transcendent origins and rely on intervention from the real world to wake us up, which is what Jesus basically did. So what exactly is your argument here?

Consider:

5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his Light.
5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
(John 5:31-37).

In this passage, Jesus is speaking to the religious leaders. He says of the Father, that they have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape. He says that he is not the only one who is testifying concerning himself. Jesus mentions the testimony of John the Baptist and the testimony of God the Father. Jesus contrasts his testimony from that of The Father showing that they are two distinct persons. The Father provides additional testimony to the character of Jesus.

Now, if we further consider the analogy you gave:

Can you type your next message or reply here on VC, which will appear to everyone as the next post made by @Artful Revealer, and also appear in VC separately (without making another account) in order to verify what @Artful Revealer has just posted?

According to the Gospel:

Mark 9:7 And there was a "Cloud" that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the "Cloud", saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

We know Jesus' own Testimony occurred here in this universe (world), as did the Testimony that came out of the cloud that overshadowed them, also in this world.

 

[The Sojourner]

@The Sojourner (a forum account) told everyone (all the other forum accounts) that he was human just like his Father is human, for instance when he said "I am not from this world" (the VC forums). Everyone (all forum accounts) could know that @The Sojourner (a forum account) was from this world (the VC forums) because he was born (created) here. So @The Sojourner was speaking of his true Self, which is not a forum account but is human, like his Father is human.

So, if we asked if @Artful Revealer is Thomas, a human being, then the answer would seem to be that it depends how you look at it. So it can be yes, but also no.

But if we asked if Thomas is a human being posting at VC forums using an online account, then the answer would simply be "yes".

But Thomas and @Artful Revealer are not two distinct persons.

 

[Artful Revealer]

So, if we asked if @Artful Revealer is Thomas, a human being, then the answer would seem to be that it depends how you look at it. So it can be yes, but also no.

But if we asked if Thomas is a human being posting at VC forums using an online account, then the answer would simply be "yes".

If who asked? Humans? Do gods ask if God was God entering the world as Jesus?

Our answer to your question is "simply yes" because we are humans and we know how this posting on online forums functions. But how do humans recognize one of theirs is God? How does artificial intelligence recognize human intelligence?

Yes, you could argue that Jesus wasn't God the way @The Sojourner is Thomas, but then you'd be wrong.

But Thomas and @Artful Revealer are not two distinct persons.

Are they one and the same?

 

[The Sojourner]

Are they one and the same?

Didn't you just say that the answer to that question is "simply yes"?

Or, are you saying now, by asking the question, that it could then also be no instead of simply yes, depending on how you look at it?

We can confuse and tire ourselves by going around in circles, or we can just choose to believe that what Christ says in the Gospel is what is meant. It's easy to see which option is better, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Didn't you just say that the answer to that question is "simply yes"?

I said the answer is 'simply yes' to this statement:

if we asked if Thomas is a human being posting at VC forums using an online account, then the answer would simply be "yes".

But Thomas and @Artful Revealer are not two distinct persons.

Jesus and God are not two distinct gods either. They both essentially refer to the same being, just like @The Sojourner and Thomas.

This isn't that hard. We're going in circles because you're obfuscating a sound and simple analogy with parameters that don't matter.

But it's ok. It's here for anyone who gets it. Not for those who don't want to get it.

 

[The Sojourner]

We're going in circles because you're obfuscating a sound and simple analogy with parameters that don't matter.

Those parameters, meaning free will? Jesus is shown in the Gospel to have had it, and so it is an important part of the Gospel Message. If we were to choose to leave out those parameters, i.e. Jesus being shown to have been gifted with free will by God, and that with that he chose to keep his Father's commandment, then we would be leaving out an important part of the Gospel Message and would end up with an incomplete Gospel. We would be choosing to ignore an important part of it and therefore, also would be losing the meaning, of that which we chose to ignore.