Who do Muslims really worship?

[Mohammed_123]

Sorry you've lost me with all gamatria stuff.

But I have wondered who instructed us to pray the way we do? We find these in hadiths. Did the Prophet also instructed us to pray for him as we do? Remember there's no distinction between the prophets yet the last one is mentioned in the shahada. Could the shahada just be the first declaration? Isn't that the point?

Regarding prayers, where does it say 5 in the Quran?

My last point, why is there such emphasis on learning Arabic? Yes I understand the Quran is written in Arabic or whatever language you believe it was written in. Here is my reasoning, it was sent to the Arabs because of their transgressions not because they were "chosen" for their piety. Therefore it had to be in a language they understood. We also know it is mentioned in the Quran that no Arabs are superior than non Arabs and vice versa. Doesn't this mean their language, culture and everything that is associated with what it means to be an Arab and non Arab? Non are above each other except in piety. Should we not read the revelation in a language we can understand?

Because I find so much is lost when all efforts are put into learning a language you don't speak for the sake of reading the Qur'an in what is thought to be its orginal form. Like we don't know right from wrong without a scripture, as if all civilizations were incapable of being good?

i was taught Arabic as a child...i prefer to read the Koran in English...at least that way you can understand the meaning....
i always tell people this .....that read the Koran in the language that you understand.

 

[Mohammed_123]

Sorry you've lost me with all gamatria stuff.

But I have wondered who instructed us to pray the way we do? We find these in hadiths. Did the Prophet also instructed us to pray for him as we do? Remember there's no distinction between the prophets yet the last one is mentioned in the shahada. Could the shahada just be the first declaration? Isn't that the point?

Regarding prayers, where does it say 5 in the Quran?

My last point, why is there such emphasis on learning Arabic? Yes I understand the Quran is written in Arabic or whatever language you believe it was written in. Here is my reasoning, it was sent to the Arabs because of their transgressions not because they were "chosen" for their piety. Therefore it had to be in a language they understood. We also know it is mentioned in the Quran that no Arabs are superior than non Arabs and vice versa. Doesn't this mean their language, culture and everything that is associated with what it means to be an Arab and non Arab? Non are above each other except in piety. Should we not read the revelation in a language we can understand?

Because I find so much is lost when all efforts are put into learning a language you don't speak for the sake of reading the Qur'an in what is thought to be its orginal form. Like we don't know right from wrong without a scripture, as if all civilizations were incapable of being good?

question...are you a born muslim or a convert?

how is your iman?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Sorry you've lost me with all gamatria stuff.

But I have wondered who instructed us to pray the way we do? We find these in hadiths. Did the Prophet also instructed us to pray for him as we do? Remember there's no distinction between the prophets yet the last one is mentioned in the shahada. Could the shahada just be the first declaration? Isn't that the point?

Regarding prayers, where does it say 5 in the Quran?

My last point, why is there such emphasis on learning Arabic? Yes I understand the Quran is written in Arabic or whatever language you believe it was written in. Here is my reasoning, it was sent to the Arabs because of their transgressions not because they were "chosen" for their piety. Therefore it had to be in a language they understood. We also know it is mentioned in the Quran that no Arabs are superior than non Arabs and vice versa. Doesn't this mean their language, culture and everything that is associated with what it means to be an Arab and non Arab? Non are above each other except in piety. Should we not read the revelation in a language we can understand?

Because I find so much is lost when all efforts are put into learning a language you don't speak for the sake of reading the Qur'an in what is thought to be its orginal form. Like we don't know right from wrong without a scripture, as if all civilizations were incapable of being good?

You raise an interesting point. Shahada is part of Quran isnt it? And Quran mentions many profits so yes, its the first most important declaration for a Muslim, but not the only one as our lives are supposed to be living extensions of striving to fulfill that covenant. We will all fall short of that standard and thats why its Gods mercy alone who grants eternal paradise, and Gods wrath who grants damnation.

5 prayers a day isnt required, but its best for Muslims. They shouldnt be treated disrespectfully, but we also know different situations call for different adjustments and to all reasonable degree, Islam as a religion allows for that. Not innovations, but adjustments.

Its also best to learn to read/write/speak Quranic Arabic. Just as we utilize Arabic numerology for a good portion of out mathematical basis, there are advantages specific to the culture in those regards. However, as we all know, that doesnt apply to people, no matter how much the connection is exploited by Arabs themselves. In fact, it mentions twice in the Quran that Arabs were the worst people on Earth. That means their culture as well, it was a cursed culture, as was the Jewish peoples. And as you rightly noted, Gods power was evident by the miracle of taking these "worst-to-first" peoples and remaking them into world leaders. It didnt last and they are currently world leaders in bad stuff but the point still stands... their failures are in spite of Gods mercy, not because of it.

 

[Behumble]

question...are you a born muslim or a convert?

how is your iman?

Not born but been a revert long enough to know how to read with tajweed and memorized some surahs.

Iman is always up and down we aren't constant beings. Im going through a revival, I feel that the current practice is just too unforgiving and full of rules not entirely found in the Qu'ran. Makes me question and ponder a lot. If it doesn't make sense, illogical or doesn't fit in with nature my spidey sense tells me it isn't right and there needs to be further investigation before concluding it's truth.

I believe in One Creator, strive to be truthful and good.

 

[Behumble]

i was taught Arabic as a child...i prefer to read the Koran in English...at least that way you can understand the meaning....
i always tell people this .....that read the Koran in the language that you understand.

Yes not everyone has the ability, knowledge or accessibility to aquire a second language will they be damned if they have never read the Quran in Arabic?

Further more you get born Muslims who can read it but have no clue what they're reading thus it becomes a vicious cycle of just reading with no connection and understanding. Passing this habit down from generation to the next with no aware of the religion itself. Hence they follow cultural traditions rather than Islam and this becomes their identity.

 

[Behumble]

You raise an interesting point. Shahada is part of Quran isnt it? And Quran mentions many profits so yes, its the first most important declaration for a Muslim, but not the only one as our lives are supposed to be living extensions of striving to fulfill that covenant. We will all fall short of that standard and thats why its Gods mercy alone who grants eternal paradise, and Gods wrath who grants damnation.

Allah ˹Himself˺ is a Witness that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—and so are the angels and people of knowledge. He is the Maintainer of justice. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—the Almighty, All-Wise.
3:18

For whenever it was said to them ˹in the world˺, “There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah,” they acted arrogantly
37:35

So, know ˹well, O Prophet,˺ that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah. And seek forgiveness for your shortcomings and for ˹the sins of˺ the believing men and women. For Allah ˹fully˺ knows your movements and places of rest ˹O people˺.
47:19


All the verses only mentions "there is no god worthy of worship, except Him" and nothing else after it.
The last verse is from surah Muhammad and also reminds him to seek forgiveness for his short comings. Isn't that also to remind us that the Prophet was just a man? Because if you point this out most will say it's blasphemous to leave out the prophets name and so forth. Even though I am only trying avoid the act of shirk.

 

[Mohammed_123]

Allah ˹Himself˺ is a Witness that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—and so are the angels and people of knowledge. He is the Maintainer of justice. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—the Almighty, All-Wise.
3:18

For whenever it was said to them ˹in the world˺, “There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah,” they acted arrogantly
37:35

So, know ˹well, O Prophet,˺ that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah. And seek forgiveness for your shortcomings and for ˹the sins of˺ the believing men and women. For Allah ˹fully˺ knows your movements and places of rest ˹O people˺.
47:19


All the verses only mentions "there is no god worthy of worship, except Him" and nothing else after it.
The last verse is from surah Muhammad and also reminds him to seek forgiveness for his short comings. Isn't that also to remind us that the Prophet was just a man? Because if you point this out most will say it's blasphemous to leave out the prophets name and so forth. Even though I am only trying avoid the act of shirk.

what do you make of my latest finding?

the PIG stuff?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Allah ˹Himself˺ is a Witness that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—and so are the angels and people of knowledge. He is the Maintainer of justice. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him—the Almighty, All-Wise.
3:18

For whenever it was said to them ˹in the world˺, “There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah,” they acted arrogantly
37:35

So, know ˹well, O Prophet,˺ that there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Allah. And seek forgiveness for your shortcomings and for ˹the sins of˺ the believing men and women. For Allah ˹fully˺ knows your movements and places of rest ˹O people˺.
47:19


All the verses only mentions "there is no god worthy of worship, except Him" and nothing else after it.
The last verse is from surah Muhammad and also reminds him to seek forgiveness for his short comings. Isn't that also to remind us that the Prophet was just a man? Because if you point this out most will say it's blasphemous to leave out the prophets name and so forth. Even though I am only trying avoid the act of shirk.

"All the verses only mentions "there is no god worthy of worship, except Him" and nothing else after it.
The last verse is from surah Muhammad and also reminds him to seek forgiveness for his short comings. Isn't that also to remind us that the Prophet was just a man? Because if you point this out most will say it's blasphemous to leave out the prophets name and so forth. Even though I am only trying avoid the act of shirk."

I would really like to read any further elaborations you care to post regarding this topic. And I agree, others would likely find fault, yet many of that same crowd would cling to the verse's interpretation that we should somehow try to communicate w/Muhammed and ask him to seek out forgiveness from the Creator as some sort of intercessor on our behalf. Thts seems like pretty clear heretical innovation, but its what many (most) born-and-bread Muslims choose to believe.

 

[Behumble]

You raise an interesting point. Shahada is part of Quran isnt it? And Quran mentions many profits so yes, its the first most important declaration for a Muslim, but not the only one as our lives are supposed to be living extensions of striving to fulfill that covenant. We will all fall short of that standard and thats why its Gods mercy alone who grants eternal paradise, and Gods wrath who grants damnation.

5 prayers a day isnt required, but its best for Muslims. They shouldnt be treated disrespectfully, but we also know different situations call for different adjustments and to all reasonable degree, Islam as a religion allows for that. Not innovations, but adjustments.

Its also best to learn to read/write/speak Quranic Arabic. Just as we utilize Arabic numerology for a good portion of out mathematical basis, there are advantages specific to the culture in those regards. However, as we all know, that doesnt apply to people, no matter how much the connection is exploited by Arabs themselves. In fact, it mentions twice in the Quran that Arabs were the worst people on Earth. That means their culture as well, it was a cursed culture, as was the Jewish peoples. And as you rightly noted, Gods power was evident by the miracle of taking these "worst-to-first" peoples and remaking them into world leaders. It didnt last and they are currently world leaders in bad stuff but the point still stands... their failures are in spite of Gods mercy, not because of it.

The Arab is not superior over non Arabs is actually from the Prophets last sermon. However I did find this verse interesting:

˹Some of˺ the nomadic Arabs say, “We believe.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “You have not believed. But say, ‘We have submitted,’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger ˹wholeheartedly˺, He will not discount anything from ˹the reward of˺ your deeds. Allah is truly All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
49:14

The nomadic Arabs submitted but faith had not entered their hearts. It look a long time for them to accept the message. If you look at the state of those countries now, there seems to be evidence of superiority over non Arabs as well as extorting pilgrims with visa fees and whatever else people need to pay for to visit the Kaaba.

 

[Behumble]

what do you make of my latest finding?

the PIG stuff?

I have a very rudimentary knowledge of gamatria, in fact I've only recently come across it.

I am trying to make sense of your post. When I do I'll let you know.

It really comes down to reciting words we don't understand isn't it? It would be treacherous if the devil has tricked the billion of Muslims to recite in their prayers words to worship other than the Creator. That would be the result of following blindly.

 

[Mohammed_123]

hope this helps....

 

[Behumble]

"All the verses only mentions "there is no god worthy of worship, except Him" and nothing else after it.
The last verse is from surah Muhammad and also reminds him to seek forgiveness for his short comings. Isn't that also to remind us that the Prophet was just a man? Because if you point this out most will say it's blasphemous to leave out the prophets name and so forth. Even though I am only trying avoid the act of shirk."

I would really like to read any further elaborations you care to post regarding this topic. And I agree, others would likely find fault, yet many of that same crowd would cling to the verse's interpretation that we should somehow try to communicate w/Muhammed and ask him to seek out forgiveness from the Creator as some sort of intercessor on our behalf. Thts seems like pretty clear heretical innovation, but its what many (most) born-and-bread Muslims choose to believe.

From my observations and personal theory is that Prophet Muhammad is the Muslims version of Jesus. So many believers have elevated him to such heights and they'll get offended if you state that you believe soley in Allah.

In parts of the world they even celebrate his birthday, or keep relics that they believe came from him such as a lock of his hair etc. Some even claim to be descendents from his line and have this honoured "status" amongst the people.

I've been in some circles where I thought "wait a minute, who exactly are we worshipping here?"

 

[Mohammed_123]

From my observations and personal theory is that Prophet Muhammad is the Muslims version of Jesus. So many believers have elevated him to such heights and they'll get offended if you state that you believe soley in Allah.

In parts of the world they even celebrate his birthday, or keep relics that they believe came from him such as a lock of his hair etc. Some even claim to be descendents from his line and have this honoured "status" amongst the people.

I've been in some circles where I thought "wait a minute, who exactly are we worshipping here?"

i personally live in a city where is is predominatley - Pakistani Mirpuri muslims...and these people have peers...they kiss there hands and feet, which to me is sickening...

and yes they worship prophet Mohammed more than Allah, they celebrate his birthday, his hair and god knows what else..

makes me sick

 

[TempestOfTempo]

From my observations and personal theory is that Prophet Muhammad is the Muslims version of Jesus. So many believers have elevated him to such heights and they'll get offended if you state that you believe soley in Allah.

In parts of the world they even celebrate his birthday, or keep relics that they believe came from him such as a lock of his hair etc. Some even claim to be descendents from his line and have this honoured "status" amongst the people.

I've been in some circles where I thought "wait a minute, who exactly are we worshipping here?"

Yes, the faith of Islam is intact, but the "believers" are a different story. What many dont realize is the old adage of "point one finger w/3 pointing back" is true here as well... their innovations and blasphemous heresy have resulted in a crisis among what is supposed to be an Ummah. We are seeing a time where the behavior being confronted here (ped-agendas, constant warlike state based on tribal/nationalism, focus on the material world instead of spiritual development and etc.) are caused/exacerbated by the weak faith so many promote as their "Islam" manifesting itself via false idol worship (Muhammed over Allah) and a disregard for actual doctrine (hadeeth over Quran). If a man (Muhammed) is no longer their standard, but an idol to be worshiped... and holy scripture (Quran) can be disregarded for peoples interpretations of the actions of a human (hadeeth) then anything can be excused made halal/haram. Couple this with the "buy-a-fatwa" industry and their from of Islam serves tto excuses whatever wicked desire or pointless fitna they can devise... any indulgence can become "permissible"... and we see the consequences.

Imo the infamous phrase "We are only doing as our fathers have done" applies to the born-and-bred Muslims now, as what they practice today seems unrecognizable when compared to the actual foundadtion of Islam as a faith, established over 1400 years ago.

 

[Mohammed_123]

Yes, the faith of Islam is intact, but the "believers" are a different story. What many dont realize is the old adage of "point one finger w/3 pointing back" is true here as well... their innovations and blasphemous heresy have resulted in a crisis among what is supposed to be an Ummah. We are seeing a time where the behavior being confronted here (ped-agendas, constant warlike state based on tribal/nationalism, focus on the material world instead of spiritual development and etc.) are caused/exacerbated by the weak faith so many promote as their "Islam" manifesting itself via false idol worship (Muhammed over Allah) and a disregard for actual doctrine (hadeeth over Quran). If a man (Muhammed) is no longer their standard, but an idol to be worshiped... and holy scripture (Quran) can be disregarded for peoples interpretations of the actions of a human (hadeeth) then anything can be excused made halal/haram. Couple this with the "buy-a-fatwa" industry and their from of Islam serves tto excuses whatever wicked desire or pointless fitna they can devise... any indulgence can become "permissible"... and we see the consequences.

Imo the infamous phrase "We are only doing as our fathers have done" applies to the born-and-bred Muslims now, as what they practice today seems unrecognizable when compared to the actual foundadtion of Islam as a faith, established over 1400 years ago.

thats due to the fact most Muslims at the top and Muslim elite are in the know about these guys.....

Sabbateans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Behumble]

i personally live in a city where is is predominatley - Pakistani Mirpuri muslims...and these people have peers...they kiss there hands and feet, which to me is sickening...

and yes they worship prophet Mohammed more than Allah, they celebrate his birthday, his hair and god knows what else..

makes me sick

Pakistan's answer to saint Patrick'. I am aware of the "beers" you speak of lol

 

[Behumble]

Yes, the faith of Islam is intact, but the "believers" are a different story. What many dont realize is the old adage of "point one finger w/3 pointing back" is true here as well... their innovations and blasphemous heresy have resulted in a crisis among what is supposed to be an Ummah. We are seeing a time where the behavior being confronted here (ped-agendas, constant warlike state based on tribal/nationalism, focus on the material world instead of spiritual development and etc.) are caused/exacerbated by the weak faith so many promote as their "Islam" manifesting itself via false idol worship (Muhammed over Allah) and a disregard for actual doctrine (hadeeth over Quran). If a man (Muhammed) is no longer their standard, but an idol to be worshiped... and holy scripture (Quran) can be disregarded for peoples interpretations of the actions of a human (hadeeth) then anything can be excused made halal/haram. Couple this with the "buy-a-fatwa" industry and their from of Islam serves tto excuses whatever wicked desire or pointless fitna they can devise... any indulgence can become "permissible"... and we see the consequences.

Imo the infamous phrase "We are only doing as our fathers have done" applies to the born-and-bred Muslims now, as what they practice today seems unrecognizable when compared to the actual foundadtion of Islam as a faith, established over 1400 years ago.

Some will say, “They were three, their dog was the fourth,” while others will say, “They were five, their dog was the sixth,” ˹only˺ guessing blindly. And others will say, “They were seven and their dog was the eighth.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “My Lord knows best their ˹exact˺ number. Only a few people know as well.” So do not argue about them except with sure knowledge, nor consult any of those ˹who debate˺ about them.
18:22

This is reminiscent of your thread.

Statistically speaking Arabs only make up a small percentage of Muslims, if you compare that with the total number and think how many followers can fully read and comprehend the Qu'ran, it isn't a lot.

 

[Behumble]

thats due to the fact most Muslims at the top and Muslim elite are in the know about these guys.....

Sabbateans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The pattern is usually always the same, greed for wealth and power only leads to a path deviating from the true faith.

 

[Maldarker]

and the GOD of this world is Mammon.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Some will say, “They were three, their dog was the fourth,” while others will say, “They were five, their dog was the sixth,” ˹only˺ guessing blindly. And others will say, “They were seven and their dog was the eighth.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “My Lord knows best their ˹exact˺ number. Only a few people know as well.” So do not argue about them except with sure knowledge, nor consult any of those ˹who debate˺ about them.
18:22

This is reminiscent of your thread.

Statistically speaking Arabs only make up a small percentage of Muslims, if you compare that with the total number and think how many followers can fully read and comprehend the Qu'ran, it isn't a lot.

Shooooot... I think a bunch of the Arabs can certainly read Quran... but I dont think they comprehend much of what they do lol
But point taken... they are small in number, yet are allowed to represent a disproportionate amount of power and influence within the Muslim world.