Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

[Daze]

Faith without works negates the point of life, doesn't it? Whats the purpose of life, if its not to serve the one who sent us here?

 

[elsbet]

No... works do not save anyone.

 

[Lyfe]

You've changed the goal posts but I'll play. Anytime anyone converts to Islam it's as if they become a newborn baby and so all their sins are wiped. But now if they, after converting to Islam, continue to commit heinous crimes they'll be held responsible either in this life and or definitely in the life after.

To be honest your own Bible tells you that works matter but then here comes the nobody Paul flipping it all on his head, probably because he loved being a sinner. Most Christians today don't follow Jesus but rather their prophet and true god Paul.

Can you actually quote Paul advocating and encouraging sin? If you were familiar with his writings you would conclude the exact opposite was true.

Obviously works matter otherwise the scripture would not say so. The reality is that nobody can walk in the ministry of Jesus and bare his fruit without the holy spirit. Its as I say the fruit we bare is Gods work in man and that is the difference between a religious person and a new creature in Christ. You can try in the power of your flesh to do the work of God and bare fruit, but you will fail as you cannot even set your mind to love and seek after Godly things without the holy ghost.

Islam and Judaism have the law in common, but according to the law one is far more guilty of doing wrong before God than they are right. This is the problem Muslims and Jews face.... We are saved solely according to Gods grace as it was his grace that decided we were worth saving to begin with. Nothing can change that. Works that come after salvation come from the holy spirit as someone can not live holy or even desire to live holy and desire God and the things of God apart from having their heart and nature changed by the holy spirit. Even if they could cut out certain fleshly sins their heart is still unchanged and full of malice, lust, envy, wickedness, and greed. If you realize just how holy God is and the severity of the law and how often you break it in deed and especially in thought then you realize just how condemned you are. Even the the two greatest commandments of which all others hang from, love your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Do you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength at all times of the day at every moment? Do you love your neighbor as yourself at all times throughout the day in every instance and moment? You accuse Paul of being a sinner, yet you don't know just how guilty you or I or anyone else is of being a sinner apart from grace. Im not talking about major sins like r*pe and murder either. There is the sin of lust, the sin of omission, hatred which is murder, sins of the heart. One evil thought is sin, Indifference and apathy and laziness is sin.... Faithlessness is sin, if you believe in your heart something is right and you dont do it, it is sin. This is the just nature of the God of the OT and the Bible. Make no mistake about it God hates with a seething hatred evil minor sins. The sins we make light of God absolutely detests. Do you think Allah is more merciful or will he pardon and not judge these same sins? If he is a God of fairness and justice than he must otherwise how good can he be if he does not hate evil in the same manner the God of the Bible does?

If you realized how holy God is you would see just how much of a sinner you are which is why it should not comfort anyone whos holy writings teach that they will be judged without fail according to Gods law. If Muslims accept the Torah then that ought to frighten you. You may compare your seemingly minor sin to that of murder but you are still guilty in Gods eyes and he hates both nevertheless.

 

[Lyfe]

Faith without works negates the point of life, doesn't it? Whats the purpose of life, if its not to serve the one who sent us here?

Are you doing enough works to be saved?

 

[Lyfe]

"All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God." -- Nisargadatta

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." -- 2 Corinthians 5:10

If anything history and centuries past have shown that man cannot and will not put an end to sufferings. Man is sinful by nature. He is predisposed toward sin.

 

[seekinheart]

If anything history and centuries past have shown that man cannot and will not put an end to sufferings. Man is sinful by nature. He is predisposed toward sin.

Like the lord of the rings.

 

[A Freeman]

Perfect karma:-

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he also reap.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.

1 John 5:2-3
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and KEEP His Commandments.
5:3 For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP His Commandments: and His Commandments are NOT grievous.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Like the lord of the rings.

I have actually been thinking about Lord of the Rings for a few weeks now... it’s part of why I’ve been away - I hope to crystallise my ideas on it at some point in the future and maybe I will post something up then.

 

[Kung Fu]

Can you actually quote Paul advocating and encouraging sin? If you were familiar with his writings you would conclude the exact opposite was true.

Obviously works matter otherwise the scripture would not say so. The reality is that nobody can walk in the ministry of Jesus and bare his fruit without the holy spirit. Its as I say the fruit we bare is Gods work in man and that is the difference between a religious person and a new creature in Christ. You can try in the power of your flesh to do the work of God and bare fruit, but you will fail as you cannot even set your mind to love and seek after Godly things without the holy ghost.

Islam and Judaism have the law in common, but according to the law one is far more guilty of doing wrong before God than they are right. This is the problem Muslims and Jews face.... We are saved solely according to Gods grace as it was his grace that decided we were worth saving to begin with. Nothing can change that. Works that come after salvation come from the holy spirit as someone can not live holy or even desire to live holy and desire God and the things of God apart from having their heart and nature changed by the holy spirit. Even if they could cut out certain fleshly sins their heart is still unchanged and full of malice, lust, envy, wickedness, and greed. If you realize just how holy God is and the severity of the law and how often you break it in deed and especially in thought then you realize just how condemned you are. Even the the two greatest commandments of which all others hang from, love your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Do you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength at all times of the day at every moment? Do you love your neighbor as yourself at all times throughout the day in every instance and moment? You accuse Paul of being a sinner, yet you don't know just how guilty you or I or anyone else is of being a sinner apart from grace. Im not talking about major sins like r*pe and murder either. There is the sin of lust, the sin of omission, hatred which is murder, sins of the heart. One evil thought is sin, Indifference and apathy and laziness is sin.... Faithlessness is sin, if you believe in your heart something is right and you dont do it, it is sin. This is the just nature of the God of the OT and the Bible. Make no mistake about it God hates with a seething hatred evil minor sins. The sins we make light of God absolutely detests. Do you think Allah is more merciful or will he pardon and not judge these same sins? If he is a God of fairness and justice than he must otherwise how good can he be if he does not hate evil in the same manner the God of the Bible does?

If you realized how holy God is you would see just how much of a sinner you are which is why it should not comfort anyone whos holy writings teach that they will be judged without fail according to Gods law. If Muslims accept the Torah then that ought to frighten you. You may compare your seemingly minor sin to that of murder but you are still guilty in Gods eyes and he hates both nevertheless.

Exactly works matter and that's what I'm trying to say. For the thousandth time faith and works go hand in hand. If you believe all you need is faith than say hi to Hitler in your little fairytale heaven.

Does Paul not say that it's only faith that saves a person?

 

[Kung Fu]

If anything history and centuries past have shown that man cannot and will not put an end to sufferings. Man is sinful by nature. He is predisposed toward sin.

Then why does man do good even when it does not benefit him in any kind of way?

 

[Kung Fu]

Are you doing enough works to be saved?

Only God knows but doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing them because God tells us it's important. otherwise all you have is a license to sin. Also, it doesn't take a rocket science to understand why you should be helping your fellow man.

How much faith does one need to saved?

 

[Daze]

Are you doing enough works to be saved?

God knows best.

Can you tell me what the point of life is, if it's not to do actions that please the Creator?


This is where Muslims have an edge in my point of view. As they know the answer to that age old question,
"what is the purpose of life?"

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.

Quran 51:56

From a Muslim stand point, this is the entire point of life.

Whether it be a smile at a stranger, a kind word to your parents, giving food to your neighbor, ect. . Some form of action that would please the Creator is worship. These are all acts of "worship".


Have you found life's purpose?

 

[phipps]

No... works do not save anyone.

You're right, works do not save us (we are saved by grace Ephesians 2:8) but works are evidence of if someone is saved or not. That is why the Bible says we will be judged by our works.

In heaven there are record books where all our deeds are recorded and we will be judged from them.

Revelation 20:12, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Our works provide evidence of salvation, but grace is the source of our salvation.

 

[phipps]

To be honest your own Bible tells you that works matter but then here comes the nobody Paul flipping it all on his head, probably because he loved being a sinner. Most Christians today don't follow Jesus but rather their prophet and true god Paul.

Paul never flips anything in the Bible unless he is misunderstood. Paul wrote, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works" (Titus 2:11-14).

This passage tells us that people who live godly and righteous lives, their good works are evidence that grace has been here. If we trust God we will obey Him. Our works of obedience are presented as evidence in the judgment that we trust God’s amazing grace. This is in line with what the entire Bible teaches and Paul is right. There is no contradiction in the Word of God.

 

[Kung Fu]

Paul never flips anything in the Bible unless he is misunderstood. Paul wrote, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works" (Titus 2:11-14).

This passage tells us that people who live godly and righteous lives, their good works are evidence that grace has been here. If we trust God we will obey Him. Our works of obedience are presented as evidence in the judgment that we trust God’s amazing grace. This is in line with what the entire Bible teaches and Paul is right. There is no contradiction in the Word of God.

Really no contradiction with the Bible?

The one who repents from sin is "justified." (Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10-14.) The son who was dead but now repents from life of sin with prostitutes is "alive again" (born again). (Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:1-32)

Now let's compare that to Paul:

One is not justified nor born again by repentance from sin, but by faith alone. (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.)

Also, are you telling me that people who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior but who r*pe and pillage are not real Christians? If that's what you're saying you're going to have to show laws that Christians follow in order for us to know what differentiates right from wrong. Because, as Christians and Paul have said, it's faith alone that matters.

 

[Mr.Anderson]

woe to the tetraplegics

 

[Todd]

If anything history and centuries past have shown that man cannot and will not put an end to sufferings. Man is sinful by nature. He is predisposed toward sin.

Are you saying that even spirit lead born again Christians can't overcome sin?

 

[phipps]

Titus 2:11-14

Really no contradiction with the Bible?

The one who repents from sin is "justified." (Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10-14.) The son who was dead but now repents from life of sin with prostitutes is "alive again" (born again). (Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:1-32)

Now let's compare that to Paul:

One is not justified nor born again by repentance from sin, but by faith alone. (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.)

Also, are you telling me that people who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior but who r*pe and pillage are not real Christians? If that's what you're saying you're going to have to show laws that Christians follow in order for us to know what differentiates right from wrong. Because, as Christians and Paul have said, it's faith alone that matters.

Really no contradiction with the Bible?

There is really no contradiction unless the Bible is misinterpreted.

The one who repents from sin is "justified." (Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10-14.) The son who was dead but now repents from life of sin with prostitutes is "alive again" (born again). (Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:1-32)

Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. They should not be taken literally. We get in deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parables literally rather than seek to understand the lesson Jesus was trying to teach in them. For example, in the parable of the lost sheep, Jesus is certainly not teaching that His followers have four legs or eat grass; it’s all metaphor for a greater spiritual point.

Also, are you telling me that people who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior but who r*pe and pillage are not real Christians? If that's what you're saying you're going to have to show laws that Christians follow in order for us to know what differentiates right from wrong. Because, as Christians and Paul have said, it's faith alone that matters.

I will answer that with scripture I posted right in this very thread. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). What is doing God's will? Obeying His commandments and everything He said we should do. If we do not do His will (r*pe and pillage aren't God's will), then we will not enter heaven. However, we can repent and come back to God and do His will and He will forgive us. In the Bible there are examples of God's people who fell from grace and some never repented and died in their sins. People like kings Saul, David, Solomon and we have the parable of the prodigal son that shows us we can fall but like David, Solomon and the example of the prodigal son we can repent and come to God. However king Saul never repented.

Paul has never said faith alone matters. I just posted scripture above (Titus 2:11-14) where Paul makes it clear that faith alone is not enough. Verse 14 says, "who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."

Paul also wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:8, "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor."

2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Galatians 6:10, "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."

Titus 1:16, "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work." To know God, to have faith is to do good works as Paul clearly says.

You have to read Paul in context to understand him. That is why there are Christians here who think Paul says its okay not to obey the law but I showed them through his own writings that he has never even implied such a thing. Paul's writings do not contradict the Bible at all unless he is misunderstood.

 

[Lisa]

Paul is nobody. If your only saved by faith then it matters not what sins or how many since you commit. This is why baby killers love your religion. I guess in your version you'll see Hitler in Heaven with you lol.

Paul met Jesus..and He was created by God..not a nobody..and...he also wrote most of the NT.

 

[Lyfe]

Are you saying that even spirit lead born again Christians can't overcome sin?

Not at all.