Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

Kung Fu

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Paul met Jesus..and He was created by God..not a nobody..and...he also wrote most of the NT.
He met a ghost. He didn't meet Jesus personally. Sounds like he met a demon when you take into account how much he contradicts the sayings of Jesus. Your god is Paul.
 






Lisa

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He met a ghost. He didn't meet Jesus personally. Sounds like he met a demon when you take into account how much he contradicts the sayings of Jesus. Your god is Paul.
How does he contradict Jesus? Jesus said that He came to seek and save the lost and that God sent Him because God loved the world...

All scripture is inspired by God..and God inspired Paul.
 






Lyfe

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Paul revealed God as the father. It was prior to this that God was primarily only known as creator, judge, and lord to the Israelite's as they were his people and servants. Paul revealed the heart of God specifically toward his children as we could now receive God as father. He revealed the tender heart and mercies and grace of God as father that comes through his son Christ given to his church. It is only through the holy spirit and blood of Jesus that we can become sons and daughters to God as the holy spirit is Gods very own SEED. Paul's writings are to the church in the context of a fathers writings toward his own children. Apart from what Christ did we cannot know God as father. If you understand this and that Pauls writings are addressing the church as Gods own family(sons and daughters) then his writings make sense. It presupposes that the recipients of his writings are already saved and filled with the spirit and been adopted as a son or daughter as they are directed towards the churches.
 






A Freeman

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Christ revealed God as The Father, NOT Paul. Read the Gospel according to John.

Paul was a primary school student of Christ's. Christ is THE MASTER/TEACHER (the ONLY Teacher - Matt. 23:10).

Anyone who thinks Paul's teachings contradict or supersede Christ's Teachings, has misunderstood Paul, as most "Christians" do much, if not most of the time. And Christ condemned the churches and the heathens and hypocrites who go to church (Matt. 6:5-8), as did Paul and the other Apostles (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24).
 






Lyfe

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Christ did reveal God as the father, but he chose Paul to reveal the full extent of this reality and concept in the new covenant in regards to how it pertains to the church(the body of Christ and all who have been adopted as a son or daughter by the seal of Gods seed, the holy spirit). We now identify with God as his own children, because his SEED(the holy spirit) or genetics reside within us. Chidren identify with their parents on a genetic level, now we can identify with God on the same level.

He chose Paul to reveal the mysteries of God. Paul doesn't contradict Jesus in anything, but rather reveals a plan that had not yet been revealed, because it was not ready to according to the fullness of the time. Paul's writings are an extension of Gods plan within the church.


Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

If one understands there are dispensations in the Bible and God always has a fullness of the time in which he is ready to reveal them then they can begin to understand that Paul doesnt supersede or contradict Jesus in anything. He was merely a chosen vessel to further reveal God as father and further expound upon the promises to the children of God contained within the new covenant and how it pertains to them.
 






Lyfe

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You can tell what manner of spirit someone is led by in what they magnify and point towards. Those with the veil still over their hearts will always point to the shadowy substance of the law and give it preeminence over the reality which is found in Christ, yet one greater than the law came and died and rose again 2000 years ago. Paul always thanked God and magnified Christ and the holy spirit. He used the law to show someone their need for Christ, but he did not point those who got saved back to it. He magnified Christ and what his work accomplishes through us in the holy ghost. Freedom from bondage and sin.
 






Lyfe

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In fact if you want someone to walk in real victory over sin you can use the law to show them sin, but the law doesn't set someone free. Only Jesus and the holy spirit can. Point them to Christ.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
 






seekinheart

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In fact if you want someone to walk in real victory over sin you can use the law to show them sin, but the law doesn't set someone free. Only Jesus and the holy spirit can. Point them to Christ.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
do u believe once saved always saved?
 






Lyfe

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do u believe once saved always saved?
I wrote this out in another thread @seekinheart

I am personally of the belief that all those who fall away were never regenerated(Titus 3:4-6) in the first place, or born again of the spirit of God. This passage got my attention a while back.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

I used to go back and forth with OSAS, but ultimately came to the conclusion that if one is truly born again and become a new creature in Christ and been adopted as a son or daughter then it would be profoundly hard to fall away, which is why I believe that those who fell away were never regenerated by the holy spirit. The Bible says we are sealed until the day of redemption and that no man can pluck us out of the fathers hands. Even in the book of 1st Corinthians there was a man among them that slept with his fathers wife and was chastised with the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may live.

There are times I have backslid, but think about what it would take for someone who is a son of God and born by the spirit of God to fall away. If you have ever backslidden as a Christian you know it is a miserable place to be, because the whole time you are grieving yourself by grieving the spirit of God. To remain in a constant place of grieving the spirit of God is to remain in a place of great sadness and torment to the Christian. Not only that, but Gods word promises to chastise us in the book of Hebrews. He chastises us as his son.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


In order for a born again Christian to completely fall away he would have to endure and than somehow bypass not only his own nature as a new creation that shares the same disposition of sin as God, but also bypass Gods rod of correction as a loving father. I have backslid allot, but I have never been able to fall away to the point where I was able to bypass living in godly sorrow and a constant state of grieving the holy spirit, and then on top of it bypassing Gods rod of correction. He goes out and searches for that one sheep that is lost while leaving the 99 behind. If you truly belong to Christ than God will find you. Recently I was in a place where I could no longer feel conviction over sin, I couldn't feel God, nothing, but then one day God had visited me and brought me to repentance. Sometimes that's what it takes and sometimes that's what God allows.

There were times I walked away and wondered if I was truly saved, but God always brought me back and over the course of time I began to see Gods hand in my life, the work he did in me through the holy spirit, and how he always brought me back whether that was from his woos of love or rod of correction. The question we have to ask ourselves is do we grieve and mourn over our sin and come to a place of hating the dark place it keeps us in? Does God correct us and bring us back when we go astray?
 






A Freeman

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Christ did reveal God as the father
And also as His (Christ's) Father and His (Christ's) God, which Paul confirmed.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

, but he chose Paul to reveal the full extent of this reality and concept in the new covenant in regards to how it pertains to the church(the body of Christ and all who have been adopted as a son or daughter by the seal of Gods seed, the holy spirit).
Paul was chosen to preach the Gospel (Christ's Teachings) to the Gentiles (Gal. 2:7).
NOTHING Paul did pertained to any church of any kind. The Gospel was preached to the communities that Paul visited, and Paul frequently scolded them for trying to make a church out of the true teachings of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22
11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is NOT to eat the Lord's supper (the bread and the wine).
11:21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
11:22 What? Have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the community of God, and embarrass them that are poor [and have not]? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] NOT.


We now identify with God as his own children, because his SEED(the holy spirit) or genetics reside within us. Chidren identify with their parents on a genetic level, now we can identify with God on the same level.
The ONLY Way any of us show who are parental guidance is through our ACTIONS. If we obey God, then we are His (adopted) children. If we continue in sin/breaking The Law, then we are Satan's children.

1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In THIS the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

He chose Paul to reveal the mysteries of God.
No, He didn't. That job was reserved for THE MASTER/TEACHER: CHRIST, during His Second Coming.

Revelation 10:7-10
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (Christ), when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the Prophets.
10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the "sea" and upon the "earth".
10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth as sweet as honey.
10:10 And I took the little book (white stone ch. 2:17) out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten (digested) it, my belly was bitter.

Paul doesn't contradict Jesus in anything,
Agreed.

but rather reveals a plan that had not yet been revealed, because it was not ready to according to the fullness of the time. Paul's writings are an extension of Gods plan within the church.
Did he? Then why did both Christ and Paul cendemn the churches and their pagan rites and rituals?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Please read what the verses above actually say, rather than what you want them to say.

Ephesians 1:9-10
1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His (God's) Will, according to His (God's) good pleasure which He (God) hath purposed in Himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He (God, NOT Paul, who is writing the verses) might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on Earth; [even] in him (in Christ, NOT a church):

The fulness of times is NOW, during these end-times, when Christ prophesied He would return and reveal the mystery of God, as He hath declared to His Servants, the Prophets.

If one understands there are dispensations in the Bible and God always has a fullness of the time in which he is ready to reveal them then they can begin to understand that Paul doesnt supersede or contradict Jesus in anything.
And yet most "Christians" mistakenly believe Paul superseded Christ and did away with The Law.

He was merely a chosen vessel to further reveal God as father
And that Father IS God.

and further expound upon the promises to the children of God contained within the new covenant and how it pertains to them.
None of which does away with the requirement of God's Children to obey Him and His Law.
 






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Lyfe

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And also as His (Christ's) Father and His (Christ's) God, which Paul confirmed.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.


Paul was chosen to preach the Gospel (Christ's Teachings) to the Gentiles (Gal. 2:7).
NOTHING Paul did pertained to any church of any kind. The Gospel was preached to the communities that Paul visited, and Paul frequently scolded them for trying to make a church out of the true teachings of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22
11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is NOT to eat the Lord's supper (the bread and the wine).
11:21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
11:22 What? Have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the community of God, and embarrass them that are poor [and have not]? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] NOT.



The ONLY Way any of us show who are parental guidance is through our ACTIONS. If we obey God, then we are His (adopted) children. If we continue in sin/breaking The Law, then we are Satan's children.

1 John 3:4-10
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In THIS the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


No, He didn't. That job was reserved for THE MASTER/TEACHER: CHRIST, during His Second Coming.

Revelation 10:7-10
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel (Christ), when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the Prophets.
10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the "sea" and upon the "earth".
10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth as sweet as honey.
10:10 And I took the little book (white stone ch. 2:17) out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten (digested) it, my belly was bitter.


Agreed.


Did he? Then why did both Christ and Paul cendemn the churches and their pagan rites and rituals?


Please read what the verses above actually say, rather than what you want them to say.

Ephesians 1:9-10
1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His (God's) Will, according to His (God's) good pleasure which He (God) hath purposed in Himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He (God, NOT Paul, who is writing the verses) might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on Earth; [even] in him (in Christ, NOT a church):

The fulness of times is NOW, during these end-times, when Christ prophesied He would return and reveal the mystery of God, as He hath declared to His Servants, the Prophets.


And yet most "Christians" mistakenly believe Paul superseded Christ and did away with The Law.
[/QUOTE]

Paul was chosen to preach the Gospel (Christ's Teachings) to the Gentiles (Gal. 2:7).
NOTHING Paul did pertained to any church of any kind. The Gospel was preached to the communities that Paul visited, and Paul frequently scolded them for trying to make a church out of the true teachings of Christ.
There is the church of Christ spoken of in Matthew 16:18(the collective of those whom God has redeemed and purchased through the blood of Christ and the outpouring of the holy ghost) and the churches or assemblies of saints spread throughout the world.

Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

2Cor 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise [is] in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2Cor 8:18 And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise [is] in the gospel throughout all the churches;
2Cor 8:19 And not [that] only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and [declaration of] your ready mind:

2Thess 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

I will stop there. You say nothing Paul did pertained to any church of any kind yet his writings were addressed to the churches or assembling of the saints. How could Paul write letters specifically to the churches and yet you say nothing Paul did pertained to the churches? Paul exhorted them in brotherly unity all the time, to be devoted to one another. How can there be unity without a church assembling? He also charged Timothy to oversee the saints in the context of an assembly. If Paul rebuked the notion of them assembling a church for the teachings of Christ then why does his letters to Timothy give instruction on how to do EXACTLY that by assigning elders and deacons and various other positions?

The beginning of revelation starts with Jesus addressing the 7 churches of asia.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

It was God who had established the churches of revelation. Seven is the Biblical number for completion.

The Gospel wasnt merely just preached to the communities he visited as if it was a convenience that they were in the neighborhood. He was told of God to make that his primary mission.


Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The ONLY Way any of us show who are parental guidance is through our ACTIONS. If we obey God, then we are His (adopted) children. If we continue in sin/breaking The Law, then we are Satan's children.
No, you have the sequence wrong. We are FIRST adopted through the spirit of adoption(Romans 8:15) and this is the defining moment in which we now identify with the lord and become HIS. The spirit is the down payment and guarantee of our new life in Christ and the lord as his child.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Salvation takes place at the very moment one is indwelt by the holy spirit and this happens before anything else. You receive the spirit which is the spirit of adoption by the hearing of faith, not by obeying the law.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We are filled with the holy spirit and then adopted as a child of God and it is this moment that we begin to belong to him. Its not if we obey and then we are his, it is we are filled with the spirit of God upon FAITH AND BELIEF and then we are regenerated and transformed to walk in newness of life and holiness.

No, He didn't. That job was reserved for THE MASTER/TEACHER: CHRIST, during His Second Coming.
No, not during his second coming, but upon Pauls writings.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Jesus CHOSE Paul to reveal this mystery.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Your zeal is not in according to scripture or the truth.

Then why did both Christ and Paul cendemn the churches and their pagan rites and rituals?
He condemned pagan practices in the churches, he did not condemn the churches themselves.

None of which does away with the requirement of God's Children to obey Him and His Law.
You really dont understand the concept of regeneration or what it means to be a new creature in Christ do you? Nor do you understand the work that God has already accomplished in someone and will accomplish just by the holy spirit....

Your only concern is with bringing one back under the bondage of the law. The spirit gives life and the letter of the law that kills. Rarely do I ever see you magnify Christ and what he has done by the work he has already accomplished. I never see you bare witness to the holy spirit and acknowledge his work or power. Most of your passages of scripture are primarily from the old covenant. This is NOT leading from the spirit of God. You NEED Jesus Christ by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT and the blood of the lamb to OPEN your eyes!

2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
2Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Cor 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Cor 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
2Cor 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cor 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
 






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Lisa

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I wrote this out in another thread @seekinheart

I am personally of the belief that all those who fall away were never regenerated(Titus 3:4-6) in the first place, or born again of the spirit of God. This passage got my attention a while back.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

I used to go back and forth with OSAS, but ultimately came to the conclusion that if one is truly born again and become a new creature in Christ and been adopted as a son or daughter then it would be profoundly hard to fall away, which is why I believe that those who fell away were never regenerated by the holy spirit. The Bible says we are sealed until the day of redemption and that no man can pluck us out of the fathers hands. Even in the book of 1st Corinthians there was a man among them that slept with his fathers wife and was chastised with the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may live.

There are times I have backslid, but think about what it would take for someone who is a son of God and born by the spirit of God to fall away. If you have ever backslidden as a Christian you know it is a miserable place to be, because the whole time you are grieving yourself by grieving the spirit of God. To remain in a constant place of grieving the spirit of God is to remain in a place of great sadness and torment to the Christian. Not only that, but Gods word promises to chastise us in the book of Hebrews. He chastises us as his son.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


In order for a born again Christian to completely fall away he would have to endure and than somehow bypass not only his own nature as a new creation that shares the same disposition of sin as God, but also bypass Gods rod of correction as a loving father. I have backslid allot, but I have never been able to fall away to the point where I was able to bypass living in godly sorrow and a constant state of grieving the holy spirit, and then on top of it bypassing Gods rod of correction. He goes out and searches for that one sheep that is lost while leaving the 99 behind. If you truly belong to Christ than God will find you. Recently I was in a place where I could no longer feel conviction over sin, I couldn't feel God, nothing, but then one day God had visited me and brought me to repentance. Sometimes that's what it takes and sometimes that's what God allows.

There were times I walked away and wondered if I was truly saved, but God always brought me back and over the course of time I began to see Gods hand in my life, the work he did in me through the holy spirit, and how he always brought me back whether that was from his woos of love or rod of correction. The question we have to ask ourselves is do we grieve and mourn over our sin and come to a place of hating the dark place it keeps us in? Does God correct us and bring us back when we go astray?
What about this verse?
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
 






Lyfe

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What about this verse?
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
I personally believe that those who fall away were never sealed with the holy spirit which means they never truly believed. Why did many of the original disciples walk away and why did the twelve stay?

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

If you really believe Jesus and his testimony as absolute truth how can you fall away from him to follow the lie of demons? We know Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins, but in knowing this where else would we go? Every time I drifted from God I knew I was striving against the wind and living in vanity, because I knew he was the only way and means that led to life. The same with the disciples when they say to whom shall we go? The diff between those who stayed and those who went was belief.
 






Lisa

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I personally believe that those who fall away were never sealed with the holy spirit which means they never truly believed. Why did many of the original disciples walk away and why did the twelve stay?

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

If you really believe Jesus and his testimony as absolute truth how can you fall away from him to follow the lie of demons? We know Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins, but in knowing this where else would we go? Every time I drifted from God I knew I was striving against the wind and living in vanity, because I knew he was the only way and means that led to life. The same with the disciples when they say to whom shall we go? The diff between those who stayed and those who went was belief.
Ok..but the Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith. So..the Spirit is the one that saying its possible. And don’t you have to be of the faith to fall away from it? I think that since we were also warned of false teachers and false prophets..that it goes with telling us that some shall fall away because of doctrines of demons. Perhaps..those people don’t check the scripture like the Bereans and they believe whomever they are following and like their ears tickled?

Hebrews 6:4-6 also brings up another interesting point...that the ones who fell away did have the Holy Spirit..but still fell away..and they couldn’t be brought back again. I think that some people think that hey..you know they don’t have to believe everything right because of once saved always saved..they can look around add other things to it and be ok..when if they were taught you have to stay in the faith that you started with and that you could lose your salvation..then that would make a difference in people being alert and not be deceived by any doctrine that comes their way...I think that’s what happens honestly.

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
 






Lyfe

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Ok..but the Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith. So..the Spirit is the one that saying its possible. And don’t you have to be of the faith to fall away from it? I think that since we were also warned of false teachers and false prophets..that it goes with telling us that some shall fall away because of doctrines of demons. Perhaps..those people don’t check the scripture like the Bereans and they believe whomever they are following and like their ears tickled?

Hebrews 6:4-6 also brings up another interesting point...that the ones who fell away did have the Holy Spirit..but still fell away..and they couldn’t be brought back again. I think that some people think that hey..you know they don’t have to believe everything right because of once saved always saved..they can look around add other things to it and be ok..when if they were taught you have to stay in the faith that you started with and that you could lose your salvation..then that would make a difference in people being alert and not be deceived by any doctrine that comes their way...I think that’s what happens honestly.

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
That passage has to be taken in context as it was speaking toward a specific audience of people who came to Christ, but still sought the continuity of the levite priesthood and system of sacrifices. Here is the thing though Lisa. There are a few times in my life where I majorly backslid. I knew the lord and did his work, but then did not for a season. I was enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and was made a partaker of the holy spirit, but by all appearances I had fallen away. If this passage of scripture is true in the sense that you are conveying then technically I cant be saved, because it is impossible for God to renew me to salvation. Is that true or can God forgive me like he did the prodigal son?

There are so many backslidden Christians out there at this very moment that by all appearances they have fallen away. Are they able to come back or is it impossible for them to come back to Christ and be forgiven? We know God can and will accept them and forgive them as he will in no wise cast out, but if he will then what could that passage in Hebrews mean?
 






Lisa

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That passage has to be taken in context as it was speaking toward a specific audience of people who came to Christ, but still sought the continuity of the levite priesthood and system of sacrifices. Here is the thing though Lisa. There are a few times in my life where I majorly backslid. I knew the lord and did his work, but then did not for a season. I was enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and was made a partaker of the holy spirit, but by all appearances I had fallen away. If this passage of scripture is true in the sense that you are conveying then technically I cant be saved, because it is impossible for God to renew me to salvation. Is that true or can God forgive me like he did the prodigal son?

There are so many backslidden Christians out there at this very moment that by all appearances they have fallen away. Are they able to come back or is it impossible for them to come back to Christ and be forgiven? We know God can and will accept them and forgive them as he will in no wise cast out, but if he will then what could that passage in Hebrews mean?
Is it taken out of context though..the Spirit also says that some will fall from the faith. Jesus says He will tell people He never knew them. I think there is more in scripture that talks about falling away then osas honestly.

And then there’s the backsliders and those who for a season fall away..or is it they stumbled? I would say don’t go there..its not worth your soul if you’re wrong about being able to come back from it.

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭16:13‬ ‭
Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

Also..it always makes me wonder why we need to be on the alert for these false teachers..or even satan..if we are osas..why would it even matter?
 






Lyfe

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The passages in Hebrews states that basically if you backslide and fall away after coming to confess and know Christ that you cant be saved or granted repentance. Do you believe based off of scripture that is true? If so it defies everything God commands towards forgiveness... There is only one sin God cant forgive.
 






Lisa

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@Lyfe I also wrote this..but no one really thinks much of it around here.

Why once saved always saved is no bueno...

1.) If it happened to the Israelites it can happen to you...God tells us we are not better than Israel.

Romans 11:17-25‬ ‭
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

‭‭

2.) Falling away....The Bible tells us falling away is a possibility for those in the faith...Jesus, Peter, Paul and the writer of Hebrews knew of it.

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."

1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

2 Peter 3:14-18‬ ‭
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Hebrews 2:1‬-3
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. “For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.



3.) How does the falling away happen?

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


Galatians 5:2-9
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Colossians 2:8‬ ‭
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.


Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


4.) What happens to those who fall away....because there is a punishment for falling away.

2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Hebrews 10:36-39
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


5.) Not everyone who says they are Christians are Christians.

Matthew 7:15-23
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


6.) Test to see if you are in the faith....

‭‭2 Corinthians 13:5-6‬
Examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

‭Acts 17:11‬ ‭
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.


‭‭‭Jude 1:20-21
But you beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.


7.) Some iffy things....

Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

John 8:51
Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


John 15:14
You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:24
Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.


8.) Be alert!

Luke 21:36
But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians‬ ‭16:13‬
Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.


1 Peter 5:8-9‬
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.


‭‭1 Thessalonians 5:4-6‬ ‭
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.”



9.) Endurance is key!

Matthew 24:13
The one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13
You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

‭‭‭2 Timothy 2:12‬
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us.



Ephesians‬ ‭6:10-18‬
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints.
 






floss

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Mar 26, 2017
Messages
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@Lyfe I also wrote this..but no one really thinks much of it around here.
No Lisa, this is false. I have given your arguments enough thoughts. I'm sure there are many other as well. I simply reject it as I don't believe that's what the Bible taught. Like many have said, you took this passage out of context and we disagree with that. The same way that you believe you're "being save" which mean you could still end up in hell. Additionally, I strongly disagree with the fact that you believe Adam and Eve are in hell right now because they "fell away". You're in a way lifting yourself higher than God's first creation which to me is very disrespectful.
 






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