Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

Lyfe

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Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

This is a subject always brought up so I wanted to take what I posted in another thread and leave it here...

Works are an evidence of true faith, or should I say that works always accompany redeeming(saving) faith that has led to salvation. If someone has truly believed and been saved by grace through faith then it means they have been sealed and indwelt by the holy spirit. It is God through the spirit that now works in them to produce these fruits that Jesus speaks of. In fact Jesus said that "the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If someone is saved and indwelt by the spirit of God then the holy spirit will also work in a person to bare works/fruit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Salvation and the fruits and works that follow are the workings and byproduct of the holy spirit and not mans attempts to achieve or maintain salvation through his own attempts. It is Gods work in an individual that produces these fruits and works of salvation. It is solely Gods work in man as Jesus said he is the vine and only IN HIM through being connected to this vine do we bring forth fruit, the father does the works in him and apart from him we can do nothing.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Works are an evidence of true faith as true faith brings salvation and will manifest the works and fruit of the holy spirit which is the seal of salvation. It is not man that works, but God that works within man.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2Cor 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Simply put if someone is saved by true faith then the works and fruits of the holy spirit will naturally follow. This is not mans doing as man cannot even desire to live for God or please God or do his will apart from the unction and regeneration of the holy spirit. This is an important distinction to recognize, because no man can through his own power work works that save him. These works must come from God or they are vain and worthless. These works are solely a work of God. Works are an evidence of true faith, they accompany the holy spirit. There is no amount of works you can do to make you right with God or grant you an entrance into heaven. If someone has truly been saved and indwelt by the holy ghost which is the seal of salvation then these fruits and works accompany them as it is God through the spirit that does these works. Nobody saved and led by the spirit works out of obligation, they work, because they are a new creature in Christ and by nature do the things of God as it is the innate inclinations of the indwelling spirit to do such.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
 






Lyfe

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Faith without works is dead as scripture says, but lets examine the passage of scripture in its proper context.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If you read the passage of scripture it is clearly speaking towards the issue of cold love or lack of love toward a brother or sister. Jesus said men shall know ye are my disciples IF YE HAVE LOVE for one another. The Bible says that LOVE is OF GOD. LOVE is a FRUIT or WORK of the holy spirit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
 






TokiEl

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Good. You all know from the Scriptures that it's only the shed blood of God that can remove sins.

Therefore thank Jesus for His sacrifice and hear Him and comply with His words.
 






Lyfe

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If you read James faith w/out works passage in context it is clear that he was speaking of genuine love w/out hypocrisy. We have such a legalistic view on Gods law and this scripture that we often miss its entire premise which is sacrificial love. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the royal law, and of love, faith, and hope we read in scripture that love is the most important. Jesus said the world shall know ye are my disciples if ye have love for one another. If we don't have love we are nothing.

It could be said that we can actually measure how much we love according to our prayer life and alone time with God. How much of our time consists of praying for others? The most that could ever be accomplished for the purposes of God is done so through the realm of prayer. Prayer is a hard discipline to be consistent with, because it is contrary to the flesh and is a work of the spirit. It requires discipline. If we dont pray for others how can any of us begin to speak about works? I speak to myself as well... If we aren't praying and crying out to God for people to be saved from perdition and if the concern is far from mind and heart then how can anyone say they are doing any real work that is worthwhile to God and dear to his heart?
 






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Lyfe

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Real fruit is a work of the holy spirit and will come naturally just by God being at work in and through someone.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
 






phipps

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We are saved by grace not works. We cannot improve on our salvation by our actions at all. What James meant by "faith without works" is we cannot be faithful people of God and it does not show by our works. Our works prove our salvation, our choices, who we are aligned with. Faith and works go hand in hand. Just like where there is fire there is smoke, where there is faith, there is works. We can't have one without the other. That is why James wrote, "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (James 2:17).

To be saved is to be obedient and it will show in our actions. Jesus said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). When we do God's will its shows in our works because we have faith. That is why we will be judged by our works. Works show what is in our hearts, whether we've chosen God or not.

Someone wrote, "The breaking of the law condemns us, but keeping of the law cannot save us."
 






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A Freeman

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What is considered to be good (Godly) works is defined by God in His Law, found in the first five books of the Bible, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Christ quite obviously did NOT come to destroy The Law, as He quite clearly stated.

Matthew 5:17-20
5:17 Think NOT that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill [fully preach The Law (The Torah) and fulfill the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah].
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till ALL be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in The Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED [the righteousness] of the lawyers and politicians, ye shall in no case enter into The Kingdom of heaven.

We were created in Christ to DO good (Godly) works (Eph. 2:10), which is God's Will for everyone. Doing God's Will means obeying God ONLY (Acts 5:29), which is IMPOSSIBLE to do without keeping and enforcing His Law/Commandments. God's Law is the CRITERION for what is good and what is evil in God's Eyes.

From cover-to-cover, the Bible teaches that obedience to God is
The Strait and Narrow Way that leads to Life, and that disobedience to God is the broad path that leads to destruction.

This entire "faith v. works" nonsense, including the garbage about which needs to come first, etc., is made up by people who want to be able to continue disobeying God (sinning/breaking God's Law) while deluding themselves into believing they're "saved"

There is no such thing as faith without good (Godly) works (
James 2:17-26). And there is no such thing as good works without The Law, which is where God defines what He considers to be good works and evil works (sin).

1 John 3:1-10

3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the (adopted) sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the (adopted) sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (His Second Coming), we shall be like him (Christ); for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins (Rom. 3:25); and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (John 3:3-7).
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Simply put, we are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. If we obey God and His Law, following Christ's example, then we are God's (adopted) children. If we continue to obey Satan (sin), then we are Satan's children.

We are the children of Whom/whom we choose to obey.
 






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Lisa

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Prayer is a hard discipline to be consistent with, because it is contrary to the flesh and is a work of the spirit.
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭‬‬
pray without ceasing


I came across this verse and I talked with God about it because I realized that I never prayed without ceasing. I would pray and many times I prayed scripture but I didn’t really pray without ceasing. So I asked God to help me to pray without ceasing.

God answered by my every thought being offered up as prayer to God...it was cool until I realized that some of my thoughts weren’t all that great and maybe I wanted to have a little space to think things before I offered them up to God. What I have now is a mind that is nearly always thinking of Him. I can’t say always but I get back to really quickly thinking of Him.

I realized that through the things I’ve been through..that He allowed happen to me was that I can’t live without Him and I never want to. That He did answer my prayer that my relationship with Him be deep and abiding..however I didn’t know that what I wanted would bring me to...looking at my shattered life of pieces at my feet...knowing I could’ve ever put it together again if I tried. That’s where God works best...how He gets that new creation..He after all wants the best for us...and He is the BEST for us! :)
 






Lisa

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If you have faith can you be saved without works?
You can only be saved without works.
Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
 






Kung Fu

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You can only be saved without works.
Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
That there license to sin! Thanks for admitting it :)

I guess this is why people can kill babies and still get into heaven.
 






Lisa

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That there license to sin! Thanks for admitting it :)

I guess this is why people can kill babies and still get into heaven.

Not exactly...


Romans‬ ‭6:1-2‬ ‭
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
 






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Kung Fu

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Not exactly...


Romans‬ ‭6:1-2‬ ‭
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Paul is nobody. If your only saved by faith then it matters not what sins or how many since you commit. This is why baby killers love your religion. I guess in your version you'll see Hitler in Heaven with you lol.
 






seekinheart

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Paul is nobody. If your only saved by faith then it matters not what sins or how many since you commit. This is why baby killers love your religion. I guess in your version you'll see Hitler in Heaven with you lol.
So a baby killing revert to Islam has no hope of salvation in Allah?
 






Kung Fu

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So a baby killing revert to Islam has no hope of salvation in Allah?
You've changed the goal posts but I'll play. Anytime anyone converts to Islam it's as if they become a newborn baby and so all their sins are wiped. But now if they, after converting to Islam, continue to commit heinous crimes they'll be held responsible either in this life and or definitely in the life after.

To be honest your own Bible tells you that works matter but then here comes the nobody Paul flipping it all on his head, probably because he loved being a sinner. Most Christians today don't follow Jesus but rather their prophet and true god Paul.
 






seekinheart

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You've changed the goal posts but I'll play. Anytime anyone converts to Islam it's as if they become a newborn baby and so all their sins are wiped. But now if they, after converting to Islam, continue to commit heinous crimes they'll be held responsible either in this life and or definitely in the life after.

To be honest your own Bible tells you that works matter but then here comes the nobody Paul flipping it all on his head, probably because he loved being a sinner. Most Christians today don't follow Jesus but rather their prophet and true god Paul.
Im on the fence about once save always saved, I think its abit more complicated than that.
 






Kung Fu

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Im on the fence about once save always saved, I think its abit more complicated than that.
My original point on here in regards to the OP was that you can't just have faith and no works or works but no faith (atheism). You need both. You were put on this earth to believe in your Creator and to do good for those around you.

What's the point of your faith if you can't show God you're trying to do something good while on this earth?
 






Alanantic

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"All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God." -- Nisargadatta

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." -- 2 Corinthians 5:10
 






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