Sufi Muslims And Gnosis

[Artful Revealer]

the jews who rejected him ie the pharisees/sadducee's, their hearts were dead so all they knew was the logical truth and could not understand the saying of Jesus.

So basically like all Sunni Muslims today.

 

[Artful Revealer]

From several articles I have read it seems Sufism has way more in common with Gnosticism and other Pantheistic faiths than Islam.

For the record, Gnostic Christianity is not pantheistic. Not all reality is divine.

 

[Artful Revealer]

That is even more Sufis have in common with Roman Catholics.

That's because Sufism was spawn from the meeting between Islam and Christianity.

 

[Artful Revealer]

I think you're trying to find ways you can relate to sufism within a christian context yet ironically to me
christianity as a whole, itself..was built on the mystical aspects of judaism.

This is entirely false. There was no mystical aspect of Judaism until Kabbalah was developed in the slip stream of Catharism. That's late Middle Ages.

so it is a mystical tradition from the get go, most of what Jesus referred to was mystical.

This, however, is true.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Now Christianity was an order too..the problem was with christianity being given to gentiles then it had to step away from judaism for that one purpose. islam doesn't have that problem because shariah is for all people regardless of their race...

Christianity wasn't given to Gentiles alone, but to "Greek or Jew." Thus, Christianity is for all people regardless of their race.

 

[AspiringSoul]

This is entirely false. There was no mystical aspect of Judaism until Kabbalah was developed in the slip stream of Catharism. That's late Middle Ages.

This, however, is true.

The mere fact it is a religion means it has to have a mystical aspect man
the process of Revelation itself is mystical
the dreams of people like Daniel, those were mystical experiences.

Core theology is built later.

 

[Artful Revealer]

despicable people like ... nabeel qureshi,

Nabeel Qureshi? Lol come on, man. That guy wouldn't hurt a fly.

 

[AspiringSoul]

In the time of Jesus, why did the pharisees take on disciples? why did Jesus say they "lock the door to the kingdom of heaven in people's faces"?
what door is that? the kingdom on heaven=the heart=the mystical path of religion.
This is the same as the tariqah/ORDER system ie You will be a priest forever after the ORDER of Melkezedek.
Did spiritual orders exist within judaism before Jesus Christ?

The pharisees, Essences and Nazirites were examples of mystical orders in judaism and finally Christianity itself WAS a mystical order within judaism.

 

[AspiringSoul]

So basically like all Sunni Muslims today.

most sunni muslims adhere to some form of sufism.
The ones who don't are the wahabi/salafi type movements that came along during the new age era.

That's because Sufism was spawn from the meeting between Islam and Christianity.

let's just make shit up as we go along, why not?
"spawn"
ironically @manama thinks sufis were basically muslims who mixed with hinduism
but sufis exist all over the muslim world and share the same ideas.

Christianity wasn't given to Gentiles alone, but to "Greek or Jew." Thus, Christianity is for all people regardless of their race.

Christianity was built originally on the mosaic law. When it was extended to the gentiles then the problem was the gentiles didn't really have laws similar to the mosaic law. So Christianity had to compromise and that's where Paul's teachings led to Christianity becoming a religion in it's own right. Basically Christianity was like judaism prior to the laws of Moses.

to you, christianity was complete
to me, it wasn't complete just like judaism went from Faith to the Law....
it seems like a backward step, for islam to come along with a universal law, yet it was God's will to send the mosaic law to Israelites.



oh and nabeel qureshi=Ahmadi, he was never a muslim and i've seen how much rubbish and deceit he speaks.

 

[manama]

Ruqya (incantation) is haram in Islam unless it
1)contains no harm/evil
2)contains no polythiesm

3) must be from Quran or Sunnah
4) The person must not say it silently that others could not hear him

 

[Artful Revealer]

Aspiring, why are you promoting Qabalah????? How is Qabalah and chakras and all that other occult, demonic stuff a part of Islam?????????

Not to mention that Kabbalah, that mystical Judaism spawn in 13th century Occitania where the last Cathar was burned, was an adaptation of Christian mysticism where they inversed the teachings, the sephirot being an inversion of the gnostic aeons. The aeons were emanations constituting God's fullness before the material creation, whereas the sephirot explain the manifestations of YHVH from a state of nothingness (ein sof) leading to the material universe. Trivial difference but quite essential foundation of an entire metaphysical view, the latter basically excluding the fullness of Jesus' Father and the Christian restoration to that fullness, and thus essentially antichristian to the core.

For the haters of mysticism, this is where the battle between good and evil plays out on the highest levels whether you like it or not. It's better to understand it than to reject it a priori.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Artful Revealer sorry im in a rush so not articulating my points very clearly.
Christianity is for all people but it isn't a 'law for all people' like shariah is.
whether you perceive this as a step backwards from faith is upto you.
I believe it was a necessary step and the will of God to reveal a law for all people similar to the mosaic law and it is Jesus Christ who will fulfill the law of shariah when he returns.
It is a funny story
The jews used to imagine a messiah who would hold the law of Moses up high and practice it the way they imagined. He didn't.
The muslims imagine the same about Jesus when he returns. It says in hadith he will judge us according to the law of the Quran.
But few muslims understand what it means to 'fulfill the law'.
This goes back to what it says about the law being 'written in people's hearts'
that is the philosophy of non-action.

 

[Artful Revealer]

The mere fact it is a religion means it has to have a mystical aspect man

Yes, which is why I don't consider pre-Christian Judaism a religion, but a theocratic cult. That said, most of the religious aspects were borrowed from Zoroastrianism anyway.

 

[manama]

Thanks @manama
I need the 101 version that you so patiently laid out in your explanation of which hadeeth are fabricated.
This would be a big undertaking on your part, M, but if you can continue to do this, I may begin to understand the Quran better.

there are alot of hadith and i haven't studied them tbh.
But if a hadith is quoted, we go and see who is the narrator, is the narrator trustworthy? Has he narrated other hadith as well? Where was he during time of narration? We go and check if the majority of the scholars claim it to be authentic. Are their other narrations to support it? Does the Quran support it?
By checking all that we can easily tell if the hadith is authentic or fabricated.

Hadith are separated into many parts from even the tiniest subject as to what to eat to greater subjects like judgement day. I am going to study Hadith itself separately when I am done with the Quran.

 

[manama]

Omg did they seriously ban true world order?

WTFFFFF

 

[grateful servant]

Ruqya (incantation) is haram in Islam unless it
1)contains no harm/evil
2)contains no polythiesm

Actually, it is haram unless it is done in accordance to the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. "Whoever introduces something into this affair of ours (i.e.Islam) will have it rejected."

 

[grateful servant]

Wait a minute. You call Sufi the mystical branch of Islam, yet Gnosticism is a " Christian sect"?

Semantics. It's a sect which contains many sects (tariqahs) within itself.

 

[Artful Revealer]

In the time of Jesus, why did the pharisees take on disciples? why did Jesus say they "lock the door to the kingdom of heaven in people's faces"?
what door is that? the kingdom on heaven=the heart=the mystical path of religion.

Aren't you confirming that Judaism wasn't mystical? As Jesus said, they locked the door to the kingdom of heaven. He opened it.

The pharisees, Essences and Nazirites were examples of mystical orders in judaism and finally Christianity itself WAS a mystical order within judaism.

For a gnostic you sure utter the complete opposite of the earliest gnostics who said Christianity did not come from Judaism, but was its antithesis.

Define mysticism for me. Mysticism is about the personal relationship between man and God. Where in Pharisaic or Sadducean teachings do you learn about that? Among the essenes there were more mystical believers, sure, John the Baptist's Mandeans for instance who were at the origins of Christianity. But other than that, who else?

 

[Lady]

Omg did they seriously ban true world order?

WTFFFFF

First I have heard of it.

Regarding the authors of the hadeeth: are there certain authors that you outright know as false? If so, are you willing to name them?

 

[Artful Revealer]

@Artful Revealer sorry im in a rush so not articulating my points very clearly.
Christianity is for all people but it isn't a 'law for all people' like shariah is.

I agree. It's a spirituality. Spirituality and law are incompatible.

whether you perceive this as a step backwards from faith is upto you.

I figure you can guess by now.

I believe it was a necessary step and the will of God to reveal a law for all people similar to the mosaic law and it is Jesus Christ who will fulfill the law of shariah when he returns.
It is a funny story
The jews used to imagine a messiah who would hold the law of Moses up high and practice it the way they imagined. He didn't.
The muslims imagine the same about Jesus when he returns. It says in hadith he will judge us according to the law of the Quran.
But few muslims understand what it means to 'fulfill the law'.
This goes back to what it says about the law being 'written in people's hearts'
that is the philosophy of non-action.

Why would another law be necessary after the Messiah fulfilled (ended) the previous law? That seems counterproductive.

Not sure about the non-action part. You saying the law written on people's hearts would render them more spiritually "active"? Isn't that the supposed purpose of the law?

Btw, Sufism was born from the encounter with Christian mystics, fact. Not saying there was no Zoroastrian or Hindu influence, but the fact remains. If you wanna filter the shit content in this thread, start with your own comments. Reducing Christianity to pre-Mosaic lawlessness is as far from the truth as you can be.