Sufi Muslims And Gnosis

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Sufism is not a sect but a branch of islam that deals with the mystical/spiritual side of religion.
There have historically been shia sufis too, but most sufis were orthodox sunni and still are.

In modern times due to the rise of arab nationalism and a new form of islamic revivalism in the middle east...new sects formed that rejected the spiritual side completely and they began to kind of hijack mainstream sunni islam.
as a result another sect was formed who are outright sufi (and this sect is actually far less orthodox than the previous).

However for you to get a good idea of sufi islam, you should google quotes of the following people

Hasan al Basri
Rabia Basri (the 2 are not related but their interaction was interesting).
Junaid baghdadi
Rumi
Ibn Arabi
al ghazali
Abdul Qadir Jilani
(there are many many more)
in the modern era there have been 2 sufis who became relatively big in the west
Sufi inayat khan (he was not an orthodox sunni but actually started a new movement called 'universal sufism' where he had followers from diff religions)
Bawa Muhaiyadeen (he was from sri lanka, born into a hindu family but adoped islam when he was young, he had a lot of followers from diff branches but he was pretty orthodox himself, much of the terminology he used was actually hindu
again you can look up quotes from them to get a good idea.
 

JoChris

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OK. Only read half-way of my article and as I thought Sufis were the more mystical group. Their practices were quite similar to medieval Catholic mystics too.
Will try to be back later (dinner preparation).
 
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OK. Only read half-way of my article and as I thought Sufis were the more mystical group. Their practices were quite similar to medieval Catholic mystics too.
Will try to be back later (dinner preparation).
how far back do you want to go?
the Tariqah (order) system for example goes back to Melkezedek

it's just a different context, language etc.
most of what is in the new testament, i learnt through sufi islam when i was younger. I just expected the new testament to be a book about morality and found all the examples of sufi islam in it.

However one thing is true in islam, the balance between the logical and mystical sides have to be respected.

For example if i look at the sky and my heart is open to God, i can SEE God.
this is a purely subjective experience.
if in this state of mind i began to call out to God, again it is subjective/personal and not something other people can appreciate

what if i was able to see God in another person? ie people saw God in Jesus.

doesn't make Jesus God in the Transcendent sense but God in the Immanent sense, that's perfectly acceptable.
problem is most people cannot differentiate and therefore you end up with a problem where Jesus is exclusively worshipped as 'fully God' without regard to the actual context.
 

JoChris

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Finished the article. Confirmed what I already thought - Sufi Islam is a mystical interpretation of Islam.

Personal intimacy with Allah is the goal. That is something which cannot be developed by just following religious commandments and gaining academic knowledge about Islam.

Am I correct?
 

JoChris

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how far back do you want to go?
the Tariqah (order) system for example goes back to Melkezedek

it's just a different context, language etc.
most of what is in the new testament, i learnt through sufi islam when i was younger. I just expected the new testament to be a book about morality and found all the examples of sufi islam in it.

However one thing is true in islam, the balance between the logical and mystical sides have to be respected.

For example if i look at the sky and my heart is open to God, i can SEE God.
this is a purely subjective experience.
if in this state of mind i began to call out to God, again it is subjective/personal and not something other people can appreciate

what if i was able to see God in another person? ie people saw God in Jesus.

doesn't make Jesus God in the Transcendent sense but God in the Immanent sense, that's perfectly acceptable.
problem is most people cannot differentiate and therefore you end up with a problem where Jesus is exclusively worshipped as 'fully God' without regard to the actual context.
Isn't your Allah separate from the universe?
Seeing God's handiwork in nature is very different from seeing God IN nature.
Same for seeing God IN Jesus compared to seeing Jesus IS God (second person of Trinity).

The Jews could see that very clearly. That's why they wanted to stone Jesus when he said "I and the Father are one". https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10:30-38&

P.S. pro Islam website, saying Sufis ARE the gnostics of Islam. http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_gnostics_of_islam.html
 

Diesa

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If you heard 2007 was declared as the international year of Rumi by unesco, who is a huge figure in sufism. And for the last few years since i have been following VC and similar blogs i was quite curious as to why 'they' were supporting sufism.

In my research i found a couple of articles that provided proofs about sufism and its satanic roots but sadly it's not in english so no use to share it. But it made a lot of sense as it told about the main belief system in sufism which was wahdat al wujud (means something like unity of everything) and what does it actually mean.
It was stated wahdat al-wujud was the Islamic way of saying 'everything is God'. It means everything is a part of God, everything you see around is a manifestation of God thus everything is good. The problem is if everything is good there is no evil. And if eveything is a part of God and everything is good there is no need to call anything good as they are what they are supposed to be. And there is no wrong as since everything is God incarnate, everything is permissible. Which is a pretty dangerous and similar way of luciferian thinking in my opinion.

In the beginning of the book Masnawi by Rumi there are statements God used for the Holy Qur'an in Qur'an Itself that he changed and used for his own book. For example Rumi says for Masnawi that 'it is recorded in honored sheets, exalted and purified, carried by the hands of messenger-angels, noble and dutiful' where as Allah says in the Holy Qur'an chapter 80 verses 13 to 16 the same thing for the Holy Qur'an. So he kind of declares himself a prophet in disguise and applies Qur'an verses to his own book. In Islam it's strongly condemned to even trying to change Qur'an verses or least twisting the meaning for personal reasons.

If you ever heard of Mansur al-Hallaj who is an another strong figure in sufism also the mentor of Rumi, he also has a famous work open to question. In which he shows Satan (or Ibles) as a noble and proud being, for him, Ibles was a “true monotheist,” so how could he worship God and still bow down before Adam in prostration? As in the Qur'an Ibles is the first to disobey God and in islam he is the first racist.

So in my opinion other than messages of peace and love sufism contradicts a lot with the Islam i am still learning from the Holy Qur'an.
 
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Isn't your Allah separate from the universe?
Seeing God's handiwork in nature is very different from seeing God IN nature.
Same for seeing God IN Jesus compared to seeing Jesus IS God (second person of Trinity).

The Jews could see that very clearly. That's why they wanted to stone Jesus when he said "I and the Father are one". https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10:30-38&

P.S. pro Islam website, saying Sufis ARE the gnostics of Islam. http://moorishacademy.org/articles/the_gnostics_of_islam.html
the term gnostic here has no real connection to the gnostic sect of the 2nd century though
their beliefs were their own
the arabic words are arif (an arif is a knower) and marifah (gnosis, mystical intuitive knowledge).


from the perspective of the logical truth of monothiesm, we would describe it as "God's handiwork in nature"
however from the mystical perspective, actually.......there is no room for 'else than God' ie in Gnosis...ONLY God remains and everything else just becomes transparent.

so again pay attention to what Jesus said here
22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your vision is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.…

do you get it? Jesus is saying there's no room for plurality if you want to attain gnosis of God then ONLY GOD can remain in your heart.
so if you obtained the single eye, then what did you see when you looked at Jesus? his words, the miracles etc? you would only see God.

Hence theoretical truth=Word was with God
mystical truth=Word IS God.

the jews who rejected him ie the pharisees/sadducee's, their hearts were dead so all they knew was the logical truth and could not understand the saying of Jesus.
 
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If you heard 2007 was declared as the international year of Rumi by unesco, who is a huge figure in sufism. And for the last few years since i have been following VC and similar blogs i was quite curious as to why 'they' were supporting sufism.

In my research i found a couple of articles that provided proofs about sufism and its satanic roots but sadly it's not in english so no use to share it. But it made a lot of sense as it told about the main belief system in sufism which was wahdat al wujud (means something like unity of everything) and what does it actually mean.
It was stated wahdat al-wujud was the Islamic way of saying 'everything is God'. It means everything is a part of God, everything you see around is a manifestation of God thus everything is good. The problem is if everything is good there is no evil. And if eveything is a part of God and everything is good there is no need to call anything good as they are what they are supposed to be. And there is no wrong as since everything is God incarnate, everything is permissible. Which is a pretty dangerous and similar way of luciferian thinking in my opinion.

In the beginning of the book Masnawi by Rumi there are statements God used for the Holy Qur'an in Qur'an Itself that he changed and used for his own book. For example Rumi says for Masnawi that 'it is recorded in honored sheets, exalted and purified, carried by the hands of messenger-angels, noble and dutiful' where as Allah says in the Holy Qur'an chapter 80 verses 13 to 16 the same thing for the Holy Qur'an. So he kind of declares himself a prophet in disguise and applies Qur'an verses to his own book. In Islam it's strongly condemned to even trying to change Qur'an verses or least twisting the meaning for personal reasons.

If you ever heard of Mansur al-Hallaj who is an another strong figure in sufism also the mentor of Rumi, he also has a famous work open to question. In which he shows Satan (or Ibles) as a noble and proud being, for him, Ibles was a “true monotheist,” so how could he worship God and still bow down before Adam in prostration? As in the Qur'an Ibles is the first to disobey God and in islam he is the first racist.

So in my opinion other than messages of peace and love sufism contradicts a lot with the Islam i am still learning from the Holy Qur'an.
1)
Wahdat al wujud means Unity of Consciousness.
it doesn't mean 'everything is God'.
This core idea is built on the idea of there being a single universal consciousness (ie the kalam/word of Allah, ie the logos which is what John 1:1 was referring to).

the problem is that at the level of the Kalam, ie the ultimate point of Ihsan...a person can witness Allah in fullness of consciousness and this is problematic to most theologicans because many people have wrongly mistaken the Kalam itself as Allah.
the Kalam is the expression of the Essence of Allah and it is through the Kalam HE manifests His names...
I use the prism/light refraction analogy to describe this.

eitherway wahdat al wujud was still condemned by sufis and explained instead as wahdat ash-shuhud (Oneness of perception).

it is only due to the prism analogy that I am perfectly comfortable with wahdat al wujud and do not believe it is wrong, just potentially misinterpreted by thick people.

light refraction, think about it
because Allah is The Immanent.


2)
As for the Masnawi, pretty sure Rumi was referring to Wisdom itself which is in the Loh-e-Mahfooz. The Quran is a microcosm if the Loh-e-Mahfooz...you should quote directly so i can comment some more.

3)
al hallaj's problem was that he lost the balance of Tawhid
look at the attributed statement of Imam Malik RA
"Whoever studies jurisprudence [fiqh] and didn't study Sufism (tasawwuf) will be corrupted; and whoever studied tasawwuf and didn't study fiqh will become a heretic; and whoever combined both will be reach the Truth.

hence al hallaj was also condemned by his own teacher...who was a sufi.


you're cherry picking and twisting statements to make sufi islam look bad but why is it al-hallaj's teacher, Junayd al-baghdadi also condemned al-hallaj?

you can moan about the controversies in sufi islam but they still go along with what imam Malik said.
we have to keep it balanced between the logical and mystical truth...


4) this is my own personal view on the matter of iblees/the fall etc.
when our soul's gained sufficient awareness of the 'self' they also gained awareness of multiplicity/separation
at that point, desire was born in us...ie the fire, the nafs. This is a desire that has no end which is why we're never satisfied.
the only solution is to take that desire and direct it towards the infinite ie Allah and then it'll grow ie iblees rose higher than all the angels because his desire to grow had to limit.
iblees meeting adam meant that fire was forced into the illusion of the physical world and then it became a source of evil where that desire to grow instead comes out in the forms of jealousy, pride etc








 

TMHservant

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My problem with Sufi is their love for classification of people iman. Rasulallah SAW never did that. Iman, ihsan and so on. Hakikat, ma'rifat and so on. That's why I think that sufi is misguided.
 

JoChris

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the term gnostic here has no real connection to the gnostic sect of the 2nd century though
their beliefs were their own
the arabic words are arif (an arif is a knower) and marifah (gnosis, mystical intuitive knowledge).


from the perspective of the logical truth of monothiesm, we would describe it as "God's handiwork in nature"
however from the mystical perspective, actually.......there is no room for 'else than God' ie in Gnosis...ONLY God remains and everything else just becomes transparent.

so again pay attention to what Jesus said here
22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your vision is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.…

do you get it? Jesus is saying there's no room for plurality if you want to attain gnosis of God then ONLY GOD can remain in your heart.
so if you obtained the single eye, then what did you see when you looked at Jesus? his words, the miracles etc? you would only see God.

Hence theoretical truth=Word was with God
mystical truth=Word IS God.

the jews who rejected him ie the pharisees/sadducee's, their hearts were dead so all they knew was the logical truth and could not understand the saying of Jesus.
Boy you showed the difference between bible translations in that quote. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:22-23&version=KJV
23.... but if thine eye be EVIL....

Seeing the world through evil eyes - sinful ones - is completely different to seeing them with poor - spiritually unenlightened ones (gnostics' position).
Sin is the spiritual problem. What do Sufis teach about sin, compared to Shia/ Sunnis? (Are they the more mainstream forms of Islam)?
 

JoChris

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If you heard 2007 was declared as the international year of Rumi by unesco, who is a huge figure in sufism. And for the last few years since i have been following VC and similar blogs i was quite curious as to why 'they' were supporting sufism.

In my research i found a couple of articles that provided proofs about sufism and its satanic roots but sadly it's not in english so no use to share it. But it made a lot of sense as it told about the main belief system in sufism which was wahdat al wujud (means something like unity of everything) and what does it actually mean.
It was stated wahdat al-wujud was the Islamic way of saying 'everything is God'. It means everything is a part of God, everything you see around is a manifestation of God thus everything is good. The problem is if everything is good there is no evil. And if eveything is a part of God and everything is good there is no need to call anything good as they are what they are supposed to be. And there is no wrong as since everything is God incarnate, everything is permissible. Which is a pretty dangerous and similar way of luciferian thinking in my opinion.

In the beginning of the book Masnawi by Rumi there are statements God used for the Holy Qur'an in Qur'an Itself that he changed and used for his own book. For example Rumi says for Masnawi that 'it is recorded in honored sheets, exalted and purified, carried by the hands of messenger-angels, noble and dutiful' where as Allah says in the Holy Qur'an chapter 80 verses 13 to 16 the same thing for the Holy Qur'an. So he kind of declares himself a prophet in disguise and applies Qur'an verses to his own book. In Islam it's strongly condemned to even trying to change Qur'an verses or least twisting the meaning for personal reasons.

If you ever heard of Mansur al-Hallaj who is an another strong figure in sufism also the mentor of Rumi, he also has a famous work open to question. In which he shows Satan (or Ibles) as a noble and proud being, for him, Ibles was a “true monotheist,” so how could he worship God and still bow down before Adam in prostration? As in the Qur'an Ibles is the first to disobey God and in islam he is the first racist.

So in my opinion other than messages of peace and love sufism contradicts a lot with the Islam i am still learning from the Holy Qur'an.
From several articles I have read it seems Sufism has way more in common with Gnosticism and other Pantheistic faiths than Islam.
I admit I am reading Christian perspective articles though, so if a Sufi Muslim wants to clarify their position further please do.
 

manama

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Sufi and Shia are two sects of Islam that are against Quran itself. They don'r make any sense and it doesn't make any sense how they came up with that stuff but i agree with Diesa as Sufism shows heavy Pagan and Satanic roots.

Some of the important figures actually love Satan and call him the true lover of God. Even though Quran itself makes it clear that Satan was exiled because of Arrogance and Pride he had. We know from the hadith that Satan was obsessed with Adam before God put soul into Adam. He used to always stare at the body of Adam. And the reason he refused to obey God's command was because he thought of himself as superior to Adam. And he is trying to get us all to hell BECAUSE we are the children of Adam. This thinking of "If I am not going to heaven than none else is".
That is anything but a true lover of God.

Not only that but there are many practices which involve stuff that are unislamic and have nothing to do with any monotheistic faith or Abrahamic faith.
I have a habit of going to Christianity or Judaism if i find something unislamic so i search if its in the previous faiths but viola most of the times they aren't but are more towards hinduism or something. Creepy stuff
 

manama

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My problem with Sufi is their love for classification of people iman. Rasulallah SAW never did that. Iman, ihsan and so on. Hakikat, ma'rifat and so on. That's why I think that sufi is misguided.
^^^^^^^^^^^
 

JoChris

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Sufi and Shia are two sects of Islam that are against Quran itself. They don'r make any sense and it doesn't make any sense how they came up with that stuff but i agree with Diesa as Sufism shows heavy Pagan and Satanic roots.

Some of the important figures actually love Satan and call him the true lover of God. Even though Quran itself makes it clear that Satan was exiled because of Arrogance and Pride he had. We know from the hadith that Satan was obsessed with Adam before God put soul into Adam. He used to always stare at the body of Adam. And the reason he refused to obey God's command was because he thought of himself as superior to Adam. And he is trying to get us all to hell BECAUSE we are the children of Adam. This thinking of "If I am not going to heaven than none else is".
That is anything but a true lover of God.

Not only that but there are many practices which involve stuff that are unislamic and have nothing to do with any monotheistic faith or Abrahamic faith.
I have a habit of going to Christianity or Judaism if i find something unislamic so i search if its in the previous faiths but viola most of the times they aren't but are more towards hinduism or something. Creepy stuff
I was very surprised at how much Sufism seemed more like Paganism - therefore forms of occultism - than Islam.

If feelings of oneness with Allah is the goal of religious experience and faith, what is there to encourage spiritual knowledge and improved moral standards amongst Sufis?
That is one thing noticeable amongst mainstream Muslims - overall outward moral conduct is way higher than other non-Judeo Christian faiths and sadly many self-proclaimed Christians.
 

manama

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Like to add some more stuff as contradiction between the sufism and "Islam"

When Sufi "muslims" grew in number they gave various interpretation of verses and hadith etc in "spiritual sense" and new viewpoint not known before but the prophet s.a.w said.
Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned us when he said, “Beware of newly-invented things, for every newly-invented thing is an innovation and every innovation is a going-astray.” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi,
-------------------------------------

"… and be not of al-mushrikoon (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, idolaters, etc),
Of those who split up their religion (i.e., who left the true Islamic monotheism), and became sects, [i.e., they invented new things in the religion (bid’ah) and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.” [al-Room 30:31-32]

------------------------------------
Some of the Sufis believe in the concept of "Sainthood" who might be living or dead. They often tend to call upon these saints for help in their prayers or the Prophet s.a.w and ask them for help. OR they just ask them to pray for them, or most commonly "Oh God make our wish come true for the sake of the Prophet (or saint). However Quran says.
“And invoke not, besides Allaah, any that will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).” [Yoonus 10:106]
------------------------------------

There is also a concept that some of the Walis are so close to Allah that they have been given whom Allah has given powers and they have an influence over the universe or its affairs and they are one with the cosmos But Quran says

“Say [O Muhammad]: ‘…And who disposes the affairs?’ They will say. ‘Allaah.’…” [Yoonus 10:31]

They is referring to the polytheists who even though believed in Allah also associated others with him.

------------------------------------
The Sufis advocate extreme asceticism in this life and do not believe in taking the necessary means or in jihaad, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But seek with that (wealth) which Allaah has bestowed on you, the home of the Hereafter, and forget not your portion of legal enjoyment in this world…” [al-Qasas 28:77]

“And make ready against them all that you can of power…” [al-Anfaal 8:60]
-----------------------------------

Another twisted concept is of Ihsan which has been explained already, the problem is that the only time Ihsan is mentioned in Hadith its about the fact that when you worship Allah you keep in mind that God can see you even if you can't see him. This further adds the concept that when you sin and you are alone, you know even though people can't see you, God can. This in no sense adds that twisted "level of faith" stuff added by sufis





 

manama

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Something i found in a web article ill quote it directly

The Sufis allow dancing, drums and musical instruments, and raising the voice when making dhikr, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The believers are only those who, when Allaah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts…” [al-Anfaal 8:2]

Moreover, you see some of them making dhikr by only pronouncing the Name of Allaah, saying, “Allaah, Allaah, Allaah.” This is bid’ah and has no meaning in Islam. They even go to the extreme of saying, “Ah, ah” or “Hu, Hu.” The Sunnah is for the Muslim to remember his Lord in words that have a true meaning for which he will be rewarded, such as saying Subhaan Allaah wa Alhamdulillah wa Laa ilaaha illa Allaah wa Allaahu akbar, and so on.

The Sufis recite love poems mentioning the names of women and boys in their dhikr gatherings, and they repeat words such as “love”, “passion”, “desire” and so on, as if they are in a gathering where people dance and drink wine and clap and shout. All of this has to do with the customs and acts of worship of the mushrikeen. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

Their salaah (prayer) at the House (of Allaah, i.e., the Ka’bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands…”

[al-Anfaal 8:35]


Some Sufis pierce themselves with rods of iron, saying, “O my grandfather!” So the shayaateen come to them and help them, because they are seeking the help of someone other than Allaah . Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

And whosoever turns away (blinds himself) from the remembrance of the Most Beneficent (Allaah), We appoint for him a shaytaan (devil) to be a qareen (intimate companion) for him.

[al-Zukhruf 43:36]


The Sufis claim to have gnosis and knowledge of the unseen, but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

Say: ‘None in the heavens and the earth knows the ghayb (unseen) except Allaah…’” [al-Naml 27:65]

The Sufis claim that Allaah created the world for the sake of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

And I (Allaah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).” [al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, addressed His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with the words (interpretation of the meaning):

And worship your Lord until there comes unto the certainty (i.e., death).” [al-Hijr 15:99]

The Sufis claim that they can see Allaah in this life, but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

[Moses said:] ‘O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.’ Allaah said, ‘You cannot see Me…’” [al-A’raaf 7:143]

The Sufis travel to visit graves and seek blessings from their occupants or to make tawaaf (ritual circumambulation) around them or to make sacrifices at these sites, all of which goes against the teachings of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Do not travel to visit any place but three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [in Makkah], this mosque of mine [in Madeenah] and al-Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem].

(this does not mean don't go to mosques but it precisely shows that Mosque is the best place of worship and then your own home making their visiting graves bad)


You can see more here https://islamqa.info/en/4983
i quoted most of the stuff but it goes longer than the character limit. (and im kind of lazy)
 
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