Sufi Muslims And Gnosis

[AspiringSoul]

@Etagloc
you're Christian? I thought you were muslim but nevermind.
So the word occult just relates to the unseen ie matters of the unseen.

Witchcraft=the practice of spells right?
so how was what Jesus performed, not a form of witchcraft and magic?
"oh because miracles"
same definition
it is using metaphysical means to cause physical results.


the key difference here is that one must never use the metaphysical for evil or if it contains polythiesm.

So that brings me to divination. Most forms of divination are forbidden
(6) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Mu'awiya b. Hakam as-Sulami through another chain of transmitters. The hadith transmitted on the authority of Yahya b. Abu Kathir (there is an addition of these words): I said: Among us there are men who draw lines and thus make divination. What about this? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: There was a Prophet who drew lines, so whose lines agree with his line for him it is allowable. (Book #026, Hadith #5534)

it is very interesting that the i-ching is the drawing lines method
and that is also a hint at the truth of taoist philosophy which I find in the new testament and the Quran.

however if someone has no idea what taoist philosophy actually is...and confuses it for the taoist religion, will just do a brainfart and speak ignorance.

Also Christianity based on the new testament, i have no problem with
the doctrines of christians ie the trinitarian doctrine and belief that Jesus is God is no different to being hindu...so it makes it ironic you'd attack occultism yet you'd be praising christianity.






@manama you keep repeating that specific point in that way ie 'study hinduism and apply it to islam' but in reality the metaphysics are the same in their religion and in ours. I keep on saying this
-metaphysics are the same for all humans, where we differ are in our interpretatios. The hindus have several concepts that are the same if not very similar to ours. The difference between me and a hindu is that i believe in Tawhid, I'm not a panthiest...so everything changes from that. However the etheric, astral bodies for example, are real..they exist...regardless of my religion. The hindus have good knowledge in some areas and poor knowledge in other areas. As a muslim for me studying other religions doesn't mean i'm altering islam, it means i've learnt a lot of ideas i can relate to within islam.
There's stuff from taoism, kabballah and hinduism i've found in the Quran......you can have a problem with this but i'm very firm in my convictions.

btw you might find this hard to belief but a hindu online friend converted to islam when I was able to relate to pretty much all of his perspectives on the spiritual/chakras topics and also bring in kabbalistic ideas but explain to him why islam was the perfect path.
He converted to islam shortly afterwards and is practicing, is married to a muslim girl now too.

you wouldn't understand the topics we discussed but he was also plagued with sihr and was contacting other entities to help him, until i explained how the tree of life system fits into the islamic/sufi and hindu metaphysical system ie the chakras/7 heavens and how easy it is to go direct to the source ie Allah.
I gave him a break down of the jalali and jamali (Transcendent and immanent) qualities of Allah and how they reflect in the lower paths as shadows meant to conceal us from Allah and he finally realised how in his own experiences dealing with that side, he'd pretty much experienced that side from the jinns, compared to the jamali side where the entities try to tempt you and make you feel like you're divinity.
he'd experienced this and i hadn't yet i knew how it works simply because logically ive understood the metaphysical map.
i've never commited any shirk incase you think I have. i'm not stupid when it comes to tawhid.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Its freaking not bruh.
If you indulge in witchcraft, according to islam you are the worst of people, your prayers aren't accepted and you'll go to hell.


When you forget you are of a monotheistic abrahamic faith and try to go and study hindusim etc and other polytheistic faith and apply it to the monotheistic faith even though your faith says not to.

Tada sufism formed.

then why are sufis the majority of muslims in the world? ie whether you go to N.africa, west africa, east africa, the balkans, the levant, persia, the indian subcontinent, the far east...they are all sunni orthodox muslims who practice/live sufism.

the main body of islam is pretty much unanimous in it's stance.
wahabism is a new age creation.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Etagloc this thread was made after i spoke about Gnosis within the new testament context
ie to be IN Jesus and for Jesus to be in you.
this is metaphysical and is certainly an area of occultism.

the ORDER of Christianity made after the order of melkezedek, it is occultism.
it is a good form of occultism but it is nonetheless occultism.
it's just not the occultism you pictured in your mind (ie aleister crowley0

 

[mecca]

What is occultism defined as?

 

[AspiringSoul]

What is occultism defined as?

occult theory or practice : belief in or study of the action or influence of supernatural or supernormal powers

so if you have Extra sensory perception ie you can see angels, jinns..that makes you an occultist.
clearly occultism in light of shariah, is obviously just a part of islam.

 

[manama]

then why are sufis the majority of muslims in the world? ie whether you go to N.africa, west africa, east africa, the balkans, the levant, persia, the indian subcontinent, the far east...they are all sunni orthodox muslims who practice/live sufism.

the main body of islam is pretty much unanimous in it's stance.
wahabism is a new age creation.

Something being majority doesn't make it correct. The very second you classify yourself into a sect youve sinned. End of the story.

 

[manama]

occult theory or practice : belief in or study of the action or influence of supernatural or supernormal powers

so if you have Extra sensory perception ie you can see angels, jinns..that makes you an occultist.
clearly occultism in light of shariah, is obviously just a part of islam.

*slices throat*

The definition is not what makes the stuff what it is, but rather how its commonly used.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Something being majority doesn't make it correct. The very second you classify yourself into a sect youve sinned. End of the story.

no i do agree with that ie defining yourself as a sect
that hadith i showed you before the Prophet SAW said 'stay away from all those sects'
however in terms of learning i still take what i can. I don't follow any sufis though....i avoid that.

however the main body of islam ie the majority is the correct one. That's always been the case.
in that same hadith the Prophet SAW said 'stick to the main group of muslims and their cheif' but this occurred at the fall of the ottomons and their defeat by the colonialist/wahabi alliance.
I think since then, really every group even the majority has degenerated into something different.

*slices throat*

The definition is not what makes the stuff what it is, but rather how its commonly used.

LOL quit trolling.

 

[AspiringSoul]

ok so you have the kabballah tree of life
you have all these masons and people in the new age occult using that system yet all they're doingi s low level dark things like worshipping demons.

if i believe the tree of life is a good metaphysical map that explains good things to me...and i use it within an islamic context that's very much grounded in tawhid, you going to equate my actions with 'worshipping demons'? what kind of madness is that?

however occultism in itself doesn't imply good or bad, it's just most people involved in the occult are evil.

 

[manama]

@AspiringSoul
In order to know if something is bad, you don't see the good side, you go and see how its bad. When we say certain things are pagan or magick, we aren't saying "Oh but everything can be used for evil but it can be used for good as well", we are talking of a perspective where we know exactly HOW and WHY is it able to be used in evil. Like supporting divinations etc. I believe i mentioned it to you before that i have a close relative who is one the worst (or best in a different sense) black magician, so i know alot about black magick. When you see zodiac etc as spiritual that ain't harming anyone, true. But once you see how and why its used. You'll see the effects. Its addicting, this is why when most of such people do convert or return to God and repent, they'd rather be impaled than touch that stuff EVEN in good ways. Its like a casino. You'll see no harm in going to a casino and you can say the people gambling etc are the bad ones or the owners using it in a certain way BUT when you work in a casino you realize that from the exterior to even the tiniest bell ring is designed in a way that will draw you in for good, but before you know it will be bad and you can't get out.
There is a reason Islam forbids all this and there is a reason why the opinion among scholars is so popular that "What is prohibited in large amounts, becomes forbidden in small amounts".

 

[AspiringSoul]

@AspiringSoul
In order to know if something is bad, you don't see the good side, you go and see how its bad. When we say certain things are pagan or magick, we aren't saying "Oh but everything can be used for evil but it can be used for good as well", we are talking of a perspective where we know exactly HOW and WHY is it able to be used in evil. Like supporting divinations etc. I believe i mentioned it to you before that i have a close relative who is one the worst (or best in a different sense) black magician, so i know alot about black magick. When you see zodiac etc as spiritual that ain't harming anyone, true. But once you see how and why its used. You'll see the effects. Its addicting, this is why when most of such people do convert or return to God and repent, they'd rather be impaled than touch that stuff EVEN in good ways. Its like a casino. You'll see no harm in going to a casino and you can say the people gambling etc are the bad ones or the owners using it in a certain way BUT when you work in a casino you realize that from the exterior to even the tiniest bell ring is designed in a way that will draw you in for good, but before you know it will be bad and you can't get out.
There is a reason Islam forbids all this and there is a reason why the opinion among scholars is so popular that "What is prohibited in large amounts, becomes forbidden in small amounts".

The biggest problem with this whole topic is that it takes a long time to logically understand the pitfalls and traps
there is a map and within it there are many many traps
yet islam is the 'straight path'
the map is the same.....

I believe the map is real because i've studied it, experienced it..and though ive made mistakes, shirk was never one of them.

The people who make the mistakes, they have gone on the 'journey' but they've not even understood the map or they've lacked the strength of tawhid and the light of iman.
We now live in the age of information...but it's going to take direct experience of that information for it to become knowledge.

take a look at the story of the people of sheba in the Quran

they worshipped the sun...and iblees made their deeds 'fairseeming' to them

Surah 27
24"I found her and her people worshipping the sun instead of Allah, and Shaitan (Satan) has made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and has barred them from (Allah's) Way: so they have no guidance."

see these people were into the occult..and they were ancient luciferians.
of course it's perfectly fitting it was Solomon AS who brought them to islam. He did it by showing his own occult powers were better than theirs...(yes i know, miracles are from Allah but you get the idea right?).


25 [As Shaitan (Satan) has barred them from Allah's Way] so they do not worship (prostrate themselves before) Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what you conceal and what you reveal. [Tafsir At-Tabari]

actually if you understand how the tree of death works, it is a 'shadow' that blocks the sephorits in the tree of life.
[As Shaitan (Satan) has barred them from Allah's Way]
ie they were in darkness ie lacking tawhid.

the highest Sephirot is Keter which is the highest level of faith and this sephirot rests on iman.
The highest Cliphoth (shadow) in the tree of death which corresponds to Keter is Thameil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth

Thamiel: Duality in God

“Thamiel represents duality whereas Kether represents unity. Thus Thamiel is the division of that which is perfect only in unity. As a demonic order name, the Thamiel were before their 'revolt'. This signifies 'Perfection of God'. These angels sought to become more powerful by adding an Aleph to their name. They then became the 'Duality of God,' an order of the lesser demons. In the lowest state of their 'fall', they become 'the Polluted of God.' The cortex or outer form of the Thamiel is called Cathariel, 'the Broken' or 'Fearful Light of God'.”

so how can anyone be a true kabbalist if they are doing shirk?


Now in Chapter 34, we're told a story more of this story of the people of Sheba (in a different time)

15 Indeed there was for Saba' (Sheba) a sign in their dwelling-place - two gardens on the right hand and on the left; (and it was said to them "Eat of the provision of your Lord, and be grateful to Him." A fair land and an Oft-Forgiving Lord!
16 But they turned away (from the obedience of Allah), so We sent against them Sail Al-'Arim (flood released from the dam), and We converted their two gardens into gardens producing bitter bad fruit, and tamarisks, and some few lote-trees.
17 Like this We requited them because they were ungrateful disbelievers. And never do We requite in such a way except those who are ungrateful (disbelievers).


the Garden on the left and Garden on the right, is a reference to the jalali and jamali paths within the tree of life system./

for you to appreciate this interpretation you just need to understand how the jalali/jamali works in relation to both the tree of life and tree of death
people who commit shirk, are in the tree of death not tree of life
people who are ungrateful arrogant, evil etc they are all in the tree of death which represents hell.

 

[Etagloc]

What is occultism defined as?

Stuff you should run in the opposite direction of.

 

[rainerann]

Kabballah "tree of life" stuff is Jewish occultism. If you deny that it's occultism, I think you're lying. I used to practice occultism. I think pretty much anyone who has really studied occultism knows about the "tree of life" Qabalah stuff. It's considered to be a fundamental thing if you want to practice witchcraft. Hermetic magic places a huge emphasis on it. I am hesitant to even be discussing these things because I don't want any impressionable minds to get ideas. Messing with witchcraft and occultism..... I mean, it's like joining a gang in a way. You are asking for trouble and these things are to be left alone.

"Adherents of the Mysteries have long held the idea that the Tarot has its origins in the arcane system of the Kabbalah, though there is no firm historical evidence for this. The work of 19th century French occultist, Eliphas Levi, was the catalyst for the study of the esoteric links between Tarot and Kabbalah, which became the main model for the development and interpretation of the Tarot. The most influential decks of the 20th century were founded on Kabbalistic principles, in terms of their structure, symbology and interpretation."

I used to be an occultist. I'm not unfamiliar with this stuff. http://www.byzant.com/mystical/tarot/Kabbalah.aspx

Now where else do we find the so-called "tree of life"? On the ten of pentacles tarot card! I know this from memory because I used to teach people how to read these cards. I had three students if not more.

If you don't see it, look at the "tree of life" and look at how the pentacles are strategically arranged.

I studied the "tree of life". I even had a poster of it hanging up in my house. If you have a poster of it in your house, tear up that poster and throw it in the garbage and remove it. I had multiple books on it and I studied it and all that. I had two different copies of the Dion Fortune book on it. I'm not pulling stuff out of thin air. I'm familiar with Qabalah and I've studied it. It's garbage and it invites evil. "The powers that be don't want us to know this POWERFUL HIDDEN OCCULT KNOWLEDGE"..... if you want to purchase the ocean-front property in Arizona, I guess that's your decision. You're basically saying "well no, I'm totally different- you see I'm into white magic- this is not black magic". Uh huh. I used to be into this stuff. These are not ground-breaking revelations to me. I've heard it all before. "THIS IS POWERFUL HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE THEY DON'T WANT US TOO HAVE", the idea that there is white magic and black magic, whatever. I've heard it. I've been there, done that. I've already fallen for the scam. I have no intention of falling for the same scam twice. It is annoying to me when someone presents the same recycled things I've heard a million times and then repeats them as though they're presenting new ideas.

"The Hidden Agenda of the Kabbalah

Most people do not Knowingly go towards Lucifer (who is appropriately called Satan). So those who end up worshipping Lucifer essentially have to be tricked into doing this. Theosophy spends a great deal of time with the Kabbalah (caballa/quabalah), because the books of the Kabbalah pretend to be about Jewish History. The premise of those who study the Kabbalah is that they are reading an ancient series of books, usually containing HIDDEN knowledge about the Bible, and about the Universe.

The problem is - that is not ACTUALLY what the Kabbalah is doing. The system of the Kabbalah claims to be based on Jewish Mysticism. But we have to look at that claim very closely. Some people who hear the term "Jewish Mysticism" think that this applies to Jewish Spirituality that is derived FROM the Old Testament, from the Bible. That is NOT true ! It is confusing because books About the Kabbalah are written in a style which is confusing, designed to lead readers to think that they are studying DEEP things, when the only event that is truly taking place - is that readers [of books about the Kabbalah] are being deceived."

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Kabbalah/kaballah_truth.htm

I've actually studied this stuff and I know a couple things about it. The kabbalah is not just some philosophy or theory. I've studied this "POWERFUL HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE THEY DON'T WANT YOU HAVE". It's a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. The theory, philosophy, whatever- that stuff's not the point.

If you know this stuff then you know that all the theory is there merely to prepare you for the practice. And the practice is to open doors to the spirit world and experience direct communion with spirits.

Look, man if you wanna go and repeat other peoples' mistakes, I guess I can't stop you. Some people don't want to learn from others' experiences and they want to go and learn it the hard way for themselves. I was one of those people and that was why I tampered with things I had no business messing with. People tried to warn me and all this but I didn't care, I wanted to experience for myself.

If you want to invite spirits, I guess that's your decision. If you want to just assume the spirit world is a nice, friendly place that it's Mr. Roger's Spirit Neighborhood and everyone is friendly and loving, I guess that's your decision. But I reserve the right to laugh when you find out the spirit world is not Mr. Roger's Neighborhood and that all spirits are not warm, loving beings who want to help you. And you can't choose which ones will enter once you open the doors.

I'm not really talking to try to benefit you. I don't think you care what I am saying and you want to repeat the same mistakes I myself made. How am I any better?? I was the same way myself. But I speak for the benefit of others who may be reading. If I can motivate one person to avoid my mistakes then perhaps God will forgive me for the sins I've committed.

The thing about the occultist is the occultist- at least for me, when I was an occultist- is like the scientists in the movie Jurassic Park.

You see, the scientists are thinking to themselves "can we do it?? can we really do it?? can we really bring dinosaurs back from the dead??"

These lunatics. The truth is- yes- yes, they can. If they are so intent on discovering "wow can we really do it??"- yes, yes, they can. They can do it.

But we put so much emphasis on the right answers that we forget the value of the right questions.

You see, their answers are correct. Yes, they are able to do this thing and yes their theories are correct in a technical sense and they have approached the correct method of accomplishing their task.

But these poor lunatics- they've found the right answers but they're totally lost because they haven't found the right question. The right question is not "can we do this?". The right question is "should we do this?"

The kabbalah is an unholy science just as the Jurassic Park scientists practiced an unholy science. They had no business trying to bring back the dinosaurs. When I was a kid, I loved those movies. I remember meeting my best friend in pre-kindergarten and how we loved playing with our toy dinosaurs. I even knew how to pronounce long and complicated dinosaur names that adults couldn't pronounce and I was so certain I wanted to be a paleontologist when I grew up. But as fascinating as those dinosaurs are and as much I loved reading about the dinosaurs and watching movies about them and putting my Jurassic Park T-Rex puppet on my hand and pretending to bite my cousins with my puppet dinosaur, that movie had an important lesson that I didn't understand until I was older. I think it was a modern retelling of Frankenstein in a way and teaching the same basic message. Dr. Frankenstein had no business trying to do what he did. Those Jurassic Park scientists had no business doing what they did.

If you want to be a mad scientist, if you want to be Dr. Frankenstein, if you want to be those Jurassic Park scientists, if you want to be like those CERN scientists, you go ahead.

If you want to build that opening to the spirit world and you want to scream "it's aliiiiiiiiive, it's aliiiiiiiiiive!" when you manage to succeed, then I guess you can do all that. But understand I am making a pre-reservation to laugh when your dream comes true then morphs into a nightmare.

You see, you can create an opening to the spirit world. It's not that hard to do. The problem is- that's the easy part.

The part that's easy is opening that door. If you really want that door open, I think you can get what you're asking for. The real problem comes once you get that door open. The real problem is getting the door to shut.

It is said that the tarot was used by crypto-Jews. They actually have different meanings and tell different stories than a lot of the stuff that is marketed. For example, the Hermit is a lot about the prophets. Look at the way he is dressed. He is outcasted like a prophet.

The mainstream stuff just gets silly. In reality, the Kabbalah is just a way to compete with Christ so to speak. It says in the Gospel
"Then the Pharisees came and began to argue with Jesus. They tested Him by demanding from Him a sign from heaven. Jesus sighed deeply in His spirit and said, “Why does this generation demand a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.” (Mark 8:12).

I guess this is a pretty quick definition of Kabbalah--it is the seeking of a sign. Therefore, it is interesting to note that Jesus did not have to go to all this trouble.

 

[JoChris]

Omg thats not even what true istikhara is. All you do in istikhara is ask God to show you if what you are going to do is good for you in this life, in your religion, in your level of faith, and in your life after death. And you see the dream which hints at that. THATS IT.

This really sounds like the twilight zone, or blurry boundaries.
Exactly how are these dreams gained, and how are they interpreted?
Seeking dreams divination is an occult practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneiromancy

Dreams in the bible are sent FROM God. They aren't from people already looking for dream signs and their meanings .

 

[AspiringSoul]

This really sounds like the twilight zone, or blurry boundaries.
Exactly how are these dreams gained, and how are they interpreted?
Seeking dreams divination is an occult practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneiromancy

Dreams in the bible are sent FROM God. They aren't from people already looking for dream signs and their meanings .

so what you're saying is, a person is not allowed to ask God to show them signs?




yeh that makes perfect sense lol
christians making up their theology as they go along yet again.

@manama she is right on istikhara being a form of divination too...but it is not haram.
where she is wrong is in implying it is wrong

 

[Haich]

you can pray in whatever language it is you use

Same in Islam. The only thing you read in Arabic is the Quran

 

[Haich]

The Quran basically is sorcery.

Not sure what branch of Islam you've been following but sorcery is not part of it.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Ruqya (incantation) is haram in Islam unless it
1)contains no harm/evil
2)contains no polythiesm

 

[Lady]

its not important tho. We just do it in Arabic because that is how it was revealed. It is just a form of love i guess. You are reading the verse how God revealed it on earth. Thats a beautiful thing.


Yep, same. There is no ruling that you must pray to God or wish etc in arabic. Obv you'll do it in the language you know BUT i think you are confusing reading with recitation.
When we "Read" Quran we read it in the language we know so we can understand what it says.
BUT when you "Recite" it. you recite it how it came down on earth from the heavens.
If you are familiar with Arabic you can see the difference of :"feeling" between the translated text and the original one. Its just that. I feel loved when i say "There is no God but Allah" in the same way and same language as how the prophet used to say and how the angels revealed that to him. And how God set those words to be revealed. Its a very personal feeling and a beautiful one.


The Quran doesn't. Some stories have been made which led to fabrication of a hadith. The only thing we know about the language of paradise is that, it will be beautiful and easy. Thats all.
This is the particular hadith you are referring to
It was narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, al-Haakim, al-Bayhaqi in Shu’ab al-Eemaan and others that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah said: “Love the Arabs for three reasons, because I am an Arab, the Qur’aan is Arabic and the speech of the people of Paradise is Arabic.”

Ibn al-Jawzi ruled that this hadeeth is fabricated.

Al-Dhahabi said: I think that the hadeeth is fabricated (mawdoo’).

Al-Albaani said in al-Silsilah al-Da’eefah (no. 160): (it is) fabricated.

Thanks @manama
I need the 101 version that you so patiently laid out in your explanation of which hadeeth are fabricated.
This would be a big undertaking on your part, M, but if you can continue to do this, I may begin to understand the Quran better.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Sufism is not a sect but a branch of islam that deals with the mystical/spiritual side of religion.

Wait a minute. You call Sufism the mystical branch of Islam, yet Gnosticism is a " Christian sect"?