On the Trinity:

[bible_student]

Yes, they do do this a lot here. If they're skilled at anything, it's that.

Agreed.

One popular tactic is to quote Colossians 2:8 in response to a response you've made to a truth claim presented by the Christian (e.g. "Jesus, a man, is literally God" or "Genesis 1:26 is about the Trinity"). They have no arguments, no way to defend their apparent "truth" they present, so they deflect by either ad hominems ("You are the antichrist") or deflect by calling you 'philosophical' (as a pejorative) for caring about truth.

Ad hominems and deflections are indeed quite a common occurrence when engaging in these discussions. The irony of what you mention above is that Colossians 2:8 actually has the apostle warning the believers against being taken in and spoiled by the traditions of men, which is exactly what the Catechism of the RCC is. It's a book containing the man made catholic church doctrine (traditions of the church) and they are trying to defend that by quoting a verse that is warning them against being deceived and taken in by the traditions and philosophical ideas of men. The catholic doctrine they are defending, is to make it even worse, absolutely full of philosophical concepts and new words that they have come up with to try and explain away the inconsistencies, so it is extremely ironic.

They have a default assumption that they hold views that are true, correct and cannot be questioned. Anything that doesn't stroke their own ego towards such a view is just brushed off or taken antagonistically. Truly this aphorism is always going to be the case "There is nothing new under the sun".

Agreed. Also, when it comes to this topic in particular, something worth considering is how that due to the nature of the topic there inevitably is a very high level of personal investment involved for people. Because of this, it therefore makes it very difficult for people to be open to really considering the possibility that they may have personally invested and bought into a concept that is flawed.
http://jahtruth.net/newton.htm

 

[TokiEl]

The NAME
"Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace'

pe·le yō·w·‘êṣ ’êl gib·bō·wr, ’ă·ḇî·‘aḏ śar- šā·lō·wm

EL btw doesn't only apply to God in biblical terminology.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/410.htm
1 applied to men of might and rank, אֵל גוים mighty one of the nations Ezekiel 31:11 (of Nebuchadnezzar; ᵐ5 ἄρχων ἔθνων, איל some MSS. Co); אֵלִים mighty men Job 41:17 (אילים, many MSS. Di); אֵלֵי גִבּוֺרִים mighty heroes Ezekiel 32:21 (אֵילֵי MSS. Co); אֵילֵי הָאֶרֶץ Ezekiel 17:13; 2 Kings 24:15 (Kt אולי); אֵילִים Exodus 15:15 (probably plural of III. אַיִל, q. v.) These readings are uncertain because of an effort to distinguish these forms from the divine name. אֵל גִּבּוֺר mighty hero (as above) ordivine hero (as reflecting the divine majesty) Isaiah 9:6.

Out of 245 occurrences in the Bible of the word Strong's H410 - 'el ... 213 of them is actually about God.

So the likelihood of Strong's H410 - 'el in Isaiah 9:6 implying God is pretty great.

 

[Infinityloop]

Out of 245 occurrences in the Bible of the word Strong's H410 - 'el ... 213 of them is actually about God.

So the likelihood of Strong's H410 - 'el in Isaiah 9:6 implying God is pretty great.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/on-the-trinity.6477/post-242578

 

[TokiEl]

you're laughing at your own book which says
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.

stop taking the piss out of yourself with these daft interpretations.

There is no doubt as can be seen that the Lord is also called a man in the Bible.

And Gabriel is also called a man and Jesus is also called a man.

 

[TokiEl]

Egō eimi doesn't even mean the same thing as Ehyeh.

Do you know any Greek or Hebrew?

Ehyeh is the first person form of hayah, "to be", and owing to the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar means "I am", "I was", and "I will be".[3] The meaning of the longer phrase ’ehyeh ’ăšer ’ehyeh is debated, and might be seen as a promise ("I will be with you") or as statement of incomparability ("I am without equal").[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am#targetText='Ehyeh is the first person,I am without equal").

 

[TokiEl]

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/on-the-trinity.6477/post-242578

You just copy pasted an article without crediting the actual author.

 

[TokiEl]

see here's why most christians are hypocrites. you hate on islam...
even though we know that evil has to be opposed/fought against. So obviously that involves war in the context of achieving the greater good.

This was the thinking of the Nazis... and we all know the close connection between them and Islam.

 

[bible_student]

Nowhere in the Bible where Jesus Christ referred to himself as an angel.

Actually, there are plenty of places. Jesus referred to himself on many occasions as being the Son of God:

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

A son of God is an angel:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the "I AM", and Satan came also among them. (KOFK)

Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. (NIV)

Therefore Christ said to them that he is the Angel (Son) of The Lord (God).

As in:

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I (Christ) am the Son of God (Angel of The Lord)?

And Prophet Isaiah's description of Jesus Christ is very clear

Isaiah 9:6 - “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

A Mighty God and Everlasting Father cannot be equated as an angel, it is blasphemous to say so.

It says he will be called Wonderful (Jesus is known for having done many wonders - miracles), Counselor (Jesus is known for having consulting people wherever he went; he was already teaching the elders in the Temple and at a very young age, Jesus consulted Nicodemus about needing to be born again, as well as His disciples, etc.)

Jesus is also called Mighty God, Everlasting Father (Immanuel - God with us; Matthew 1:23):

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us:

John
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Show us the Father?
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.

John 20:27 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 9:6 does NOT say that Jesus is the Father. It says that he will be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father.

The Gospels teach how Christ came in the name of his Father, as His (God's) High Priest and the mediator between God and men forever (Father being the ONLY True God, as Jesus said, in John 17:3 - The "I AM" (YHWH).

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

(The Torah / The Law says the priest chosen by God stood to minister in the name of the "I AM":

Deuteronomy 18:5 For the "I AM" thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the "I AM",...)

Jesus came to abolish the priesthood except for himself alone as the sole representative of the priesthood, being both High-Priest and King, after the order of Melchizedek.

God may have appeared as unknown man or an angel (to early Israelites), it is so because no man will ever see God's face and live

Exodus 33:20 - But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Agreed. No man has seen God at any time (John 1:18, 5:37).

Except of course when He went down to earth as a man (not angel) named Jesus.

God was in Christ (His Angel) within Jesus (the human - the son of Mary):

2 Corinthians
5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.

(Exactly just as Christ said it, in John 14:10)

While Michael is a great chief prince of angels, he is just one of several.

The Bible teaches that Michael is the First.

Michael your Prince (Dan. 10:21)

(Prince = Son of The King).

Likewise, Jude is very clear about Michael the Archangel not being God

Jude 1:9 - But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Christ only laid claim to being the Son of God.

(Son of God = Angel; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 & Genesis 6)

He never claimed to be God.

And the Everlasting Father, who is He? Being forgetful are we.

The catholic doctrine says that Jesus is not the Father. So if Isaiah 9:6 is interpreted as saying that Jesus is the Father (God), then this interpretation also refutes the catholic trinity doctrine, because according to it Jesus is not the Father.

 

[bible_student]

Exodus 3 14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 8 23Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:23-24 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (King James Bible)

"If you do not believe that I am he (the promised Messiah) then you will die in your sins."
"If you do not believe that I am he (Christ) then you will die in your sins."

John 8 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I AM!”

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (King James Bible)

Jesus said to them that before Abraham was born he (Christ) is. Because He already existed before Abraham was born.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (King James Bible)

Before Abraham was born, Christ already exists. He is zillions of years old and the first Angel created by God (Prince Michael, the Archangel).

Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 

[Jayda]

I believe that there is no such thing as a trinity, it is a false Babylonian doctrine and the idea of a triune God is found nowhere in scripture. We have been fed this doctrine by the false churches and rather then people opening up there bibles (The KJV for those who speak English) and seeking God diligently in spirit and in truth and in fasting and prayer, people instead read and watch countless videos and books of theologians and fake teachers (who are not Christians). I was once a Trinitarian but thank God I was delivered of such nonsense, I would use all these analogies to prove that God was a trinity and when people would say scriptures to me that opposed a trinity I simply would say “God is a mystery you can’t understand him”, but you can understand Him, He has revealed himself to us all throughout the scriptures, if only we would humble ourselves and come to God as babes he would show us all these things. Humbling ourselves means forgetting everything we was taught by the wolves in sheep’s clothing and stop thinking we know it all (“professing themselves to be wise, they became fools“ Romans 1:22 ) stop seeking the wisdom of men and start seeking the wisdom of God, he is our teacher not Google.
“Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.” - 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

No where in the bible is the word “trinity”, “eternal son” or “God the Son” found they are made up words to help describe a made up doctrine.

God is the Father, God is also the Holy Spirit because they are the same thing, not two separate deity’s.
“God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” John 4:24

The Son of God is not another God, co-eternal and co-equal. He is the only begotten of the Father, which means there was a period before his birth where he didn’t exist. He is God the Father manifested in the flesh.
Jesus of Nazareth is:
a man (1 Timothy 2:5),
the Son of man (Matthew 18:11),
the Son of God (John 10:36),
our brother (Hebrews 2:11,12),
our Apostle and High Priest (Hebrews 3:1),
was made in the likeness of men (Philippians 2:7),
and was in all points tempted like as we are (Hebrews 4:15).
He was hungry (Luke 4:2),
thirsty (John 19:28),
tired (Mark 4:38),
wearied (John 4:6),
troubled (John 12:27)

There’s so much more but I could go on and on, those who hath ear to hear let him hear

 

[Jayda]

Who is God talking about here...

Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭​

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.”​

‭‭

Jesus Christ had glory with the Father from the beginning (John 17:5)
Jesus Christ was foreordained (1 Peter 1:20) God loved and knew his Son (as well as his chosen) before they were even created (Jeremiah 1:5, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 8:29, Revelation 13:8)
Once Jesus Christ was born he would grow, learn and read of the countless scriptures referring to himself, Genesis 1:26 being one of them. “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” -John 5:39

Jesus Christ was not physically there in the beginning, but God knew and spoke of him and glorified his Son all throughout scripture before he was begotten in the womb of a virgin. (Isaiah 53:5)

no one was with God in the beginning:
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 43:10-11 -Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Jayda]

Anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ is saved..that’s the standard and there are real Christians who believe in Him.

My friend,
Indeed we have to believe on Jesus Christ but this alone won’t save us from the lake of fire. If we believe on him but don’t obey his commandments then our faith is vain, even devils believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but they are still damned. Faith alone won’t save us, Jesus Christ said “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”.

It is through baptism that our old man is buried (who was a sinner and walked according to the flesh) and it is through baptism whereby we put on the new man who walks in the spirit as a saint. “Know ye not, that so many of us aswere baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”- Romans 6:3-5.It is through baptism that we come to be in Christ(Galatians 3:27). In order for us to inherit the kingdom of heaven we must walk in repentance, holiness and righteousness, we must be perfect!(1 Peter 1:15-17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Philippians 1:11, James 1:4)

The false churches will tell you that “you can’t be perfect” or “you’ll always be a sinner” but if that was the case you couldn’t inherit the kingdom of God. See Jesus himself said“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” and many scriptures state the simple fact that the end of a sinner is hell “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”Revelation 21:8

We will fall and sin at times, but what’s important is we quickly get back up, and with a true repented heart we confess our sin to God who is just to forgive us, our sin will then be covered by the blood of Christ and blotted out so that we can continue to stand in the presence of God in holiness. A sinner is someone who sins say in day out, they are not truly remorseful of their sins, they are not conscious of many of their sins and they don’t turn from their sins. They may think by telling God they have sinned they are forgiven, but it is just mere words their heart is still corrupt and they still have a reprobate mind.

 

[Lisa]

Jesus Christ had glory with the Father from the beginning (John 17:5)
Jesus Christ was foreordained (1 Peter 1:20) God loved and knew his Son (as well as his chosen) before they were even created (Jeremiah 1:5, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Romans 8:29, Revelation 13:8)
Once Jesus Christ was born he would grow, learn and read of the countless scriptures referring to himself, Genesis 1:26 being one of them. “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” -John 5:39

Jesus Christ was not physically there in the beginning, but God knew and spoke of him and glorified his Son all throughout scripture before he was begotten in the womb of a virgin. (Isaiah 53:5)

no one was with God in the beginning:
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 43:10-11 -Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

‭‭
Jesus came down from heaven and went back up to heaven where He came from..why would He do that if He wasn‘t God? He sits at the right hand of the Father..would a man be able to do that?

John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
​

I think that once you’ve decided that Jesus isn’t God, you’ve lost the plot, honestly. When you say after reading the OT that Jesus isn’t God and that there is no trinity, you’re lost. The OT is all about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In Genesis God hints at there being more than one when He says ”Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness. He isn’t just talking about He and His Spirit there..He is also including His only begotten Son who said “before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58

 

[Todd]

John 1:1-4​

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

‭‭
Jesus came down from heaven and went back up to heaven where He came from..why would He do that if He wasn‘t God? He sits at the right hand of the Father..would a man be able to do that?

John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭​

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.​

​

I think that once you’ve decided that Jesus isn’t God, you’ve lost the plot, honestly. When you say after reading the OT that Jesus isn’t God and that there is no trinity, you’re lost. The OT is all about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In Genesis God hints at there being more than one when He says ”Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness. He isn’t just talking about He and His Spirit there..He is also including His only begotten Son who said “before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58

This is another examle of literal fundamentalist interpretation gone awry.
John 3:13 is Jesus using an idiom meaning the source of something was from God. The idiom would be familiar with the Hebrew people of the time.

If John 3:13 is interpreted literally than to be consistent you would need to interpret the following scriptures in the same manner and accept unplausible conclusions of the verses.

James 1:17 Does every good thing that you have received from God literally come down from heaven? Do your blessing come with a literal stamp saying "Made in Heaven"? LOL!
John 1:16 Does that mean John the baptist was also God, if he too came from heaven?
Malachi 3:10 Did God physically send blessings dropping from heaven to the Israelites?
Matthew 21:25 Again did John come directly from heaven with his baptism?
John 17:18 Jesus makes an analogy comparing him sending his disciples into the world with God sending him into the world.

Yes John 3:13 could be interpreted literally if Jesus was God and literally came from heaven. But in and of itself the verse is not proof that Jesus is God. Thre are other, just as plausible, if not more plausible ,interpretations of the verse.

 

[Lisa]

This is another examle of literal fundamentalist interpretation gone awry.
John 3:13 is Jesus using an idiom meaning the source of something was from God. The idiom would be familiar with the Hebrew people of the time.

If John 3:13 is interpreted literally than to be consistent you would need to interpret the following scriptures in the same manner and accept unplausible conclusions of the verses.

James 1:17 Does every good thing that you have received from God literally come down from heaven? Do your blessing come with a literal stamp saying "Made in Heaven"? LOL!
John 1:16 Does that mean John the baptist was also God, if he too came from heaven?
Malachi 3:10 Did God physically send blessings dropping from heaven to the Israelites?
Matthew 21:25 Again did John come directly from heaven with his baptism?
John 17:18 Jesus makes an analogy comparing him sending his disciples into the world with God sending him into the world.

Yes John 3:13 could be interpreted literally if Jesus was God and literally came from heaven. But in and of itself the verse is not proof that Jesus is God. Thre are other, just as plausible, if not more plausible ,interpretations of the verse.

Why would Jesus mean anything different than He came down from heaven and went up to heaven. If He went up to heaven and its a literal account, don’t ya think that His coming down from heaven is a literal account as well?

Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.​

‭‭

 

[Todd]

Why would Jesus mean anything different than He came down from heaven and went up to heaven.

He did come down from heaven but not in the literal sense that you think. If you want to convince me, please explain the literal interpretation of the other verses I listed.

 

[Lisa]

He did come down from heaven but not in the literal sense that you think. If you want to convince me, please explain the literal interpretation of the other verses I listed.

What do those verses have to do with Jesus literally coming down from heaven?

 

[Jayda]

John 1:1-4​

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

‭‭
Jesus came down from heaven and went back up to heaven where He came from..why would He do that if He wasn‘t God? He sits at the right hand of the Father..would a man be able to do that?

John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭​

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.​

​

I think that once you’ve decided that Jesus isn’t God, you’ve lost the plot, honestly. When you say after reading the OT that Jesus isn’t God and that there is no trinity, you’re lost. The OT is all about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In Genesis God hints at there being more than one when He says ”Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness. He isn’t just talking about He and His Spirit there..He is also including His only begotten Son who said “before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58

Why can’t we read scripture as it is written? The scripture doesn’t say “in the beginning was Jesus Christ, and the word was with Jesus Christ etc etc” it says “in the beginning was the Word...”
Q. How did the heavens and the Earth and all things come to be? A. By the word of God
“By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.”- Psalms 33:6

Jesus Christ is indeed God, however the man Jesus Christ is not God. See our God has no beginning or end he wasn’t born and he didn’t die, he doesn’t need to grow/learn/sleep because he is all-knowing. The man Jesus Christ had to do all these things he was conceived in the womb of a virgin and died on the cross for our sins. What meaning would it have if the All-mighty God died on the cross for us? But he didn’t instead “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son”

The man Jesus Christ and the Father have the same name “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” — Hebrews 1:4

The Holy Spirit (which is God not a separate deity) was in Jesus Christ, when Jesus Christ spoke to other people they were never his own words, they were the words of the Father which dwelt in him, so it was God who said “before Abraham was born, I AM”
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” ‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬

 

[Todd]

What do those verses have to do with Jesus literally coming down from heaven?

It's about consistency. If you are going to say John 3:13 must be interpreted literally than you must interpret the other verses I listed the same way. Please interpret the other verses I listed literally and tell me how they make sense.

 

[Lisa]

It's about consistency. If you are going to say John 3:13 must be interpreted literally than you must interpret the other verses I listed the same way. Please interpret the other verses I listed literally and tell me how they make sense.

No, haha, its about you listing random verses and insisting they have something to do with another verse, which they don’t.