On the Trinity:

[Artful Revealer]

You really think that?

It's not an opinion.

 

[bible_student]

Its only God who could fulfill His law, we couldn’t. He became man because it was man who broke the law and Jesus became our kinsman redeemer.

It does not say we couldn't. It says they wouldn't keep The Law. Not couldn't. Wouldn't.

The church's false claim that only God could possibly fulfill His Law that He gave to people (the beings) to fulfill, is a ridiculous lie. God is not unreasonable. His Commandments are not grievous:

1 John 5:3 For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP His Commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.

In Luke, Zacharias and Elizabeth are both mentioned by name as an example, of a couple of people who were righteous before God and walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless, so that proves the very foundation of the doctrine of the churches to be WRONG and it proves it in the GOSPEL. This claim that supposedly we can't possibly do what God has Commanded us do to and God repeatedly reminds us that we MUST do for our own good and in order to survive, is therefore obviously false and a lie.

Luke
1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.
1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This is Biblical PROOF straight from the Gospel of Luke that the churches are teaching not only a lie to people but also a very lame one at that, since it is proved to be a lie by the very Gospel that they claim to follow (but which evidently, they are not!).

Scripture does not teach that we couldn't keep The Law.
It says over and over, that they WOULDN'T keep God's Law and that is a big difference.


According to the Bible, Christ is the firstborn of every creature and the beginning of the creation of God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


The false claim that we can't possibly live by God's Law and that only God could do it (and THEREFORE the false trinity doctrine was invented by the false christian church as being the "quick and easy path" and passed off as being the supposed solution, instead of following the actual and true Gospel of Christ), is as childish (and foolish) as a kid who throws a tantrum, because you said to them to go and clean your room and says to you that they can't possibly clean up their room so you have to come and do it. I can't possibly clean up my own room mom, I'm just a kid! Only you can do it. You telling me that I have to clean my own room is unreasonable, because everyone knows that kids can't clean their own rooms!

How long does that go on?

 

[Lisa]

It's not an opinion.

Sure it is...and its the wrong opinion too. There were only 3 but 1 there creating everything and making man in their image.

 

[Lisa]

It does not say we couldn't. It says they wouldn't keep The Law. Not couldn't. Wouldn't.

The church's false claim that only God could possibly fulfill His Law that He gave to people (the beings) to fulfill, is a ridiculous lie. God is not unreasonable. His Commandments are not grievous:

1 John 5:3 For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP His Commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.

In Luke, Zacharias and Elizabeth are both mentioned by name as an example, of a couple of people who were righteous before God and walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless, so that proves the very foundation of the doctrine of the churches to be WRONG and it proves it in the GOSPEL. This claim that supposedly we can't possibly do what God has Commanded us do to and God repeatedly reminds us that we MUST do for our own good and in order to survive, is therefore obviously false and a lie.

Luke
1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.
1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This is Biblical PROOF straight from the Gospel of Luke that the churches are teaching not only a lie to people but also a very lame one at that, since it is proved to be a lie by the very Gospel that they claim to follow (but which evidently, they are not!).

Scripture does not teach that we couldn't keep The Law.
It says over and over, that they WOULDN'T keep God's Law and that is a big difference.


According to the Bible, Christ is the firstborn of every creature and the beginning of the creation of God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rev. 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


The false claim that we can't possibly live by God's Law and that only God could do it (and THEREFORE the false trinity doctrine was invented by the false christian church as being the "quick and easy path" and passed off as being the supposed solution, instead of following the actual and true Gospel of Christ), is as childish (and foolish) as a kid who throws a tantrum, because you said to them to go and clean your room and says to you that they can't possibly clean up their room so you have to come and do it. I can't possibly clean up my own room mom, I'm just a kid! Only you can do it. You telling me that I have to clean my own room is unreasonable, because everyone knows that kids can't clean their own rooms!

How long does that go on?

They couldn’t...they tried but failed all the time. We learn in Romans that the law was the tutor to lead us to Christ...

About Zacharias and Elizabeth, they were following God and they were also doing the sacrifices needed for their sins...so technically they were righteous because they did what God commanded them to do..they couldn’t follow the law without blemish..no one can..for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


According to the Bible Jesus is the word of God..

John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.​

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
​

Who is the word you ask?

John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

‭‭
‭‭Go ahead...keep the law..see if you can do it everyday without fail..no one is stopping you...

 

[bible_student]

They couldn’t...they tried but failed all the time. We learn in Romans that the law was the tutor to lead us to Christ...

About Zacharias and Elizabeth, they were following God and they were also doing the sacrifices needed for their sins...so technically they were righteous because they did what God commanded them to do..they couldn’t follow the law without blemish..no one can..for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

According to the Bible Jesus is the word of God..

John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭​

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.​

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭​

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

​

Who is the word you ask?

John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭​

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

‭‭
‭‭Go ahead...keep the law..see if you can do it everyday without fail..no one is stopping you...

To see if you can do it everyday without fail, is actually the correct way to be thinking and living because then you will keep making spiritual progress. How does one do that? By asking God privately in one's thoughts (Matt. 6:6) to show you personally what it is that He wants you to be doing and then we have to be listening for (and learn how to correctly follow) His Guidance (His still small voice), one day at a time, and we must continue with this practice, until we can do this all day, every day, and in every situation, and wherever we go.

We should be in the habit of asking ourselves daily and in every situation "What would Jesus do?" to thereby be in the right frame of mind for allowing God to efficiently guide us (and inspire us) as to how He wants us to be. It also works with everything we have to do because God will help you with everything if you ask Him to. He will also teach you how to keep His Law like Jesus did and what exactly that means in the here and now and for you personally (and Jesus is the Example for all people of how to be) and so, that should be our lifelong aspiration.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the holy ones: here [are] they that KEEP the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

But if you don't and instead listen to and give in to the devil's lie that "you will never be able to do what God wants", then you are allowing Satan to deceive you and talk you into shutting down your conversation with God, which will then prevent God from being able to help and guide you.

 

[bible_student]

God is not a tyrant.. He's not going to burn you up for having made mistakes along the way if your goal is to please Him and wanting to do His Will. Instead He will show you and by correcting you and as you get better He even cheers you on to victory:

TWH
3:86 The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and, if you do God’s Will, and let
Him teach you and help you, you will then be going in a straight line. You will also no longer be
trying to swim against the flow, and arrive “home”; in the shortest possible time; with the least
possible waste of effort. He will even supply, directly, the energy “Force”, for you to do what He
wants you to do, to make it even easier for you, and He will cheer you on to victory.

 

[Lisa]

God is not a tyrant.. He's not going to burn you up for having made mistakes along the way if your goal is to please Him and wanting to do His Will. Instead He will show you and by correcting you and as you get better He even cheers you on to victory:

Stick with the Bible and its really not like you say..

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
​

And you must believe to be saved..and believe to do the good works that God wants you to do.

Isaiah‬ ‭64:6‬ ‭
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.​

‭‭

Ephesians‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

‭‭

 

[bible_student]

Stick with the Bible and its really not like you say..

John 3:16​

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.​

​

And you must believe to be saved..and believe to do the good works that God wants you to do.

Isaiah‬ ‭64:6‬ ‭​

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.​

‭‭

Ephesians‬ ‭2:9-10‬ ‭​

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

‭‭

Yes, we must believe to be saved (John 3:16) and about that I think we agree. Faith is the key that unlocks the door and without faith, no amount of works will amount to anything. It's through faith that we can then become transformed to become channels for God for Him to work in us and also through us.

But we have to be willing to participate by allowing God to teach us from within how He wants us to be (and because of the fact that we cannot do any of it by ourselves).

In Isaiah, it says He wants to teach us to be good and that He will, if we will be willing and obedient:

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek Judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the "I AM": though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Romans
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3:24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Lisa]

Yes, we must believe to be saved (John 3:16) and about that I think we agree. Faith is the key that unlocks the door and without faith, no amount of works will amount to anything. It's through faith that we can then become transformed to become channels for God for Him to work in us and also through us.

But we have to be willing to participate by allowing God to teach us from within how He wants us to be (and because of the fact that we cannot do any of it by ourselves).

In Isaiah, it says He wants to teach us to be good and that He will, if we will be willing and obedient:

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek Judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the "I AM": though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Romans
3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
3:24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath fore-ordained [to be] an atonement through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

I can agree with what you say here.

 

[TokiEl]

John 8:23-24 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (King James Bible)

"If you do not believe that I am he (the promised Messiah) then you will die in your sins."
"If you do not believe that I am he (Christ) then you will die in your sins."

There is no he in the original Greek text... only i am.

Just as there is originally no he in this passage... only i am.

John 18 5They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6Now when He said to them, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground.


I am is what God said about himself to Moses.

Exodus 3 14And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

 

[TokiEl]

Yes John 3:13 could be interpreted literally if Jesus was God and literally came from heaven. But in and of itself the verse is not proof that Jesus is God. Thre are other, just as plausible, if not more plausible ,interpretations of the verse.

Nobody is forcing you to believe the bible truth that Jesus Christ is God... but you use your time and energy to deny it.

And that makes you an antichrist according to John.

 

[TokiEl]

Jesus Christ is indeed God, however the man Jesus Christ is not God.

It would be much better if you just shut up.

 

[bible_student]

There is no he in the original Greek text... only i am.

Just as there is originally no he in this passage... only i am.

John 18 5They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6Now when He said to them, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground.


I am is what God said about himself to Moses.

Exodus 3 14And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

What about John 20:17?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Sure it is...and its the wrong opinion too. There were only 3 but 1 there creating everything and making man in their image.

So this was understood as the Trinity hundreds of years before Christian revelation? Ok. Show me any pre-Christian text that talks about the Trinity.

 

[Lisa]

So this was understood as the Trinity hundreds of years before Christian revelation? Ok. Show me any pre-Christian text that talks about the Trinity.

I’ll tell you how I know..it‘s more than plain from the Bible and that’s the only book that really counts on knowing about God since God inspired it in the first place. 2 Timothy 3:16

John‬ ‭1:1-5, 14‬ ‭
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

‭‭

Genesis‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.​

‭‭

Matthew‬ ‭28:19‬ ‭
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

‭‭

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭​

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.
‭‭
‭‭

 

[Artful Revealer]

I’ll tell you how I know..it‘s more than plain from the Bible and that’s the only book that really counts on knowing about God since God inspired it in the first place. 2 Timothy 3:16

​

John‬ ‭1:1-5, 14‬ ‭​

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​

​

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.​

‭‭

Genesis‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭​

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.​

‭‭

Matthew‬ ‭28:19‬ ‭​

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

‭‭

Genesis 1:26​

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.​

​

Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭​

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.‭‭

It'd be a fascinating accomplishment that Lisa would've figured out what no Torah expert or scholar prior to Christian revelation was able to. But taking into consideration that this is possibly unlikely, I asked for pre-Christian texts that interpreted these verses in Genesis as God being "3 but 1", before the doctrine of the Trinity was established by ... wait for it ... the Catholic Church.

 

[elsbet]

It does not say we couldn't. It says they wouldn't keep The Law. Not couldn't. Wouldn't....

​

Spoiler

ALL have sinned...​

ALL fall short...​

... there IS NOT a man who sinneth not​

-and-​

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

​

Of the persons on earth-- past and present-- there is a 100% Rate of Failure by man to 'keep the law'. To say we couldn't is correct because there is no evidence otherwise. No offense intended, either... I'm a little amazed you think it is possible.

 

[elsbet]

It'd be a fascinating accomplishment that Lisa would've figured out what no Torah expert or scholar prior to Christian revelation was able to. But taking into consideration that this is possibly unlikely, I asked for pre-Christian texts that interpreted these verses in Genesis as God being "3 but 1", before the doctrine of the Trinity was established by ... wait for it ... the Catholic Church.

Genesis is "Pre-Christian."

EDIT- Of the limited availability of Ancient texts, Justin (Martyr), Theophilus and Tertullian spoke of the triune nature of God-- regardless, that doesn't make it so. Just like the age of a scripture doesn't validate it-- people were capable of deception since the Garden.

The Roman Catholics also worship Mary, keep corpses under glass (or a head, in absence of the rest of the body), and chant hail marys for forgiveness-- a useless practice, according to the bible. No one is defending any of those things-- they are not biblical.

More interesting though is the obsession of non-trinitarians-- gnostics (a bit of a misnomer) and pagans-- to shut down belief in the triune nature of our God. If Jesus is not divine, then the whole salvation thing is sham <--- you could just cut to the chase. Would be a far more interesting conversation, I'm sure.

 

[Lisa]

It'd be a fascinating accomplishment that Lisa would've figured out what no Torah expert or scholar prior to Christian revelation was able to. But taking into consideration that this is possibly unlikely, I asked for pre-Christian texts that interpreted these verses in Genesis as God being "3 but 1", before the doctrine of the Trinity was established by ... wait for it ... the Catholic Church.

Idk about the Jews but I do know that the New Testament tells us that there is a trinity which I doubt the catholics could figure out since they got so much other stuff wrong and called it Christian... besides the catholics didn’t figure it out...they added a 4th..Mary.

 

[Infinityloop]

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
- Matthew 3:16-17