On the Trinity:

[Infinityloop]

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working. ”For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

- John 5:16-30​

 

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[bible_student]

Therefore, God did the creation alone and no angel involved in the creation.

It says that God created the Universe and that He made the worlds through Christ, Who is Michael the Archangel and the first created Angel/Son of God. So according to the Bible, the first Angel that God created was involved in the creation as it says God made the words through him. This is what the Bible reveals and teaches if you will study it carefully.

Some (among other) key verses to get started, if you care to look them up:

1 Corinthians
8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but ONE.
8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
8:6 But to us [there is only] ONE God, the Father, of Whom [are] all things, and we of Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Hebrews
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;

Ezekiel
34:23 And I will set up One shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] My "Well-Beloved" servant; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
34:24 And I the "I AM" will be their God, and My "Well-Beloved" servant a prince among them; I the "I AM" have spoken [it].
34:25 And I will make with them a (New) Covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

Daniel
10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, the first of the chief princes [of God], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the Scripture of Truth: and [there is] NONE that holdeth with me in these things, EXCEPT Michael your prince (Eno. 67:1; Rev. 5:3; 5; 9 & 12:7).

12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).
12:2 And many of them that sleep in "the dust of the earth" (Gen. 13:16; 28:14) shall awake, some to Everlasting Life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Jesus is called the Prince of Peace (Ezekiel 34:24-25).

 

[Infinityloop]

Jesus undeniably confirms the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4, the core Jewish doctrine) without addition:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
- Mark 12:28-34

 

[Axl888]

Christ, Who is Michael the Archangel and the first created Angel/Son of God.

Nowhere in the Bible where Jesus Christ referred to himself as an angel. And Prophet Isaiah's description of Jesus Christ is very clear

Isaiah 9:6 - “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

A Mighty God and Everlasting Father cannot be equated as an angel, it is blasphemous to say so. God may have appeared as unknown man or an angel (to early Israelites), it is so because no man will ever see God's face and live

Exodus 33:20 - But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Except of course when He went down to earth as a man (not angel) named Jesus.

While Michael is a great chief prince of angels, he is just one of several. Likewise, Jude is very clear about Michael the Archangel not being God

Jude 1:9 - But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

 

[Infinityloop]

God may have appeared as unknown man or an angel (to early Israelites), it is so because no man will ever see God's face and live

Exodus 33:20 - But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Therefore, Jesus cannot be God, if 'the God' in question is the one in Exodus.

Except of course when He went down to earth as a man (not angel) named Jesus.

God is not a man, that he should lie,
neither the son of man, that he should repent.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
- Numbers 23:19​

Clearly not.

While Michael is a great chief prince of angels, he is just one of several. Likewise, Jude is very clear about Michael the Archangel not being God

Jude 1:9 - But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

This is just eisegesis (Protestantism 101) and doesn't speak of anything to do with Michael being God whatsoever.

The whole passage is about the rebuking of evil in the cities that were destroyed back in Genesis:

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion.
- Jude 1:5-11

Some proof for how your eisegesis confirms your claims would be interesting (but impossible) to see.

An equivalent of what you've done, placed on Jesus (which I would never use as an argument either, because it's stupid) would be:

..but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village.
- Luke 9:53-56

To which, the 'evidence' would be "Look, here Jesus is rebuking his disciples, so Jesus can't be God, see! See! see!".

 

[Axl888]

Therefore, Jesus cannot be God, if 'the God' in question is the one in Exodus.

God is not a man, that he should lie,​

neither the son of man, that he should repent.​

Does he speak and then not act?​

Does he promise and not fulfill?​

- Numbers 23:19​

Clearly not.



This is just eisegesis (Protestantism 101) and doesn't speak of anything to do with Michael being God whatsoever.

The whole passage is about the rebuking of evil in the cities that were destroyed back in Genesis:

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.
Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion.
- Jude 1:5-11

Some proof for how your eisegesis confirms your claims would be interesting (but impossible) to see.

An equivalent of what you've done, placed on Jesus (which I would never use as an argument either, because it's stupid) would be:

..but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village.
- Luke 9:53-56

To which, the 'evidence' would be "Look, here Jesus is rebuking his disciples, so Jesus can't be God, see! See! see!".

So your stand now is Jesus Christ is also Michael the Archangel?

 

[Infinityloop]

So your stand now is Jesus Christ is also Michael the Archangel?

No, did I state that? your arguments against @bible_student's claims can be used to refute yourself because of how weak they are.

 

[Axl888]

No, did I state that? your arguments against @bible_student's claims can be used to refute yourself because of how weak they are.

Lol the discussion between bible_student and I is about Jesus Christ being Michael the Archangel (his position) and otherwise (my position).

Why would you butt in with different subject/argument than what being discussed? Are you that desperate of my attention?

Weak argument you say, but then you conveniently avoid Isaiah 9:6? LOL

You keep on quoting Numbers 23:19, don't you know that verse is just comparing the nature of human behavior versus God's? God does not lie as opposed to man, God does not sin (or repent) as opposed to man. That verse does not say God could not appear as man or an angel (which He did in the time of Jacob or Joshua) or become man as Jesus Christ did. So, do you now understand that verse?

 

[Infinityloop]

It was this, it was in need of a response:

While Michael is a great chief prince of angels, he is just one of several. Likewise, Jude is very clear about Michael the Archangel not being God

Jude 1:9 - But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

So I responded: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/on-the-trinity.6477/post-242534

Surely you don't actually think your saying anything meaningful by attempting such erroneous eisegesis with a verse like Jude 1:9, lmao.

You keep on quoting Numbers 23:19, don't you know that verse is just comparing the nature of human behavior versus God's? God does not lie as opposed to man

No, that's exactly what the verse states, word for word. It also compares the moral and metaphysical as distinct, in the manner that Man's nature is to be man and God's nature is to be God, that there is no overlap. Actually, I was about to mention to you that God's very nature is in opposition (metaphysically) to Man's because God is God and not Man. However you already mentioned that. If God could be a Man, then Atheism would have to be true but we already know that Atheism isn't true.

 

[Infinityloop]

Weak argument you say, but then you conveniently avoid Isaiah 9:6? LOL

No, not at all. It'd be interesting if you could display for us all your astounding knowledge in titles of authority used to refer to different prophets in the Old Testament. Surprise me?

I'm calling your bluff here, because your use of Isaiah 9:6 is just erroneous.

 

[Infinityloop]

You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horebout of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman
- Deuteronomy 4:15-16

Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
- Dueteronomy 4:23-24

 

[Infinityloop]

Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most favourite verse’s a Christian trinitarian loves to bring-up for the deity of Jesus. According to trinitarians they believe Isaiah 9:6 without doubt proves that the person that is mentioned is Divine and is “Yahweh in Flesh.” We have to take a look and see what does the Hebrew words “El Gibor” mean, is “El Gibor” (‘Mighty God’, trinitarian translation) only used for God alone? Have humans been called by that name i.e “El” and “Gibor?” We shall find out:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” – Isaiah 9:6​

If anyone just reads the above verse at face value it looks as if the person who is mentioned is indeed “God.” But if we take a closer look at the verse after a thorough examination, you would realise the verse does not say anything about the person being “God” at all! The words have been twisted and changed by trinitarians and made it out as if it saying the person is “God in flesh.”


1. Is the Hebrew word “El gibor” only used for God?
What does the word “El” mean? Does the word “El” refer to God alone? Here is the following meanings for “El” from a Christian website:

1) god, god-like one, mighty one
a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
b) angels
c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power [1]​

Notice, the word “El” is NOT exclusively referred to Yahweh (God) alone. It is referred to ‘god-like’, ‘mighty men’, ‘men of rank’, ‘mighty heroes’ and even ‘angels’. If you read the following passage, Ezekiel 33:11, the term “El” is used for a King:

“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; I have therefore delivered him into the hand of themighty one (El) of the heathen.” – Ezekiel 33:11​

Here, God (Yahweh) says he delivered the person in the “hand of the Mighty one” (el), i.e the Heathen king. Should we attribute divinity to the king, like the true “Elohim?” Obvious response from a Christian missionary is: “no he cannot be the true ‘God’, since he is a human being.” This verse (below) you will notice the word “giborim” used in Plural.

“By the swords of the mighty (giborim) will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.” – Ezekiel 32:12​

The following passage, has the words “El” and “gibor” together simultaneously:

“The strong (El) among the mighty (gibor) shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” – Ezekiel 32:21 [2]​

Notice how the above verse (Ezekiel 32:21) has the exact words as Isaiah 9:6, but in plural. Since the words “El” and “gibor” are used simultaneously together, should the people referred to be Divine like Yahweh? Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel are both the same, except in Ezekiel 32:21 it is used in plural. If Christian trinitarians are truthful and consistent, why don’t they write in their Bible translations “MIGHTY GODS” in capital letters for Ezekiel 32:21?

There are some trinitarians who will try to argue and say, ‘actually they are not ‘Gods’, since they were Gentiles, Heathen Kings.’ These type of arguments apologists cling on to have no basis whatsoever. It doesn’t matter if the people were not believers, gentiles or heathens etc. Fact of the matter remains they were called “Ele Giborim” (‘Mighty Gods’). If Apologists continue to say “Isaiah 9:6 proves the Child is God”, then Christian apologists, at-least be truthful with yourselves, and start making the heathen Kings GODS as well, since both passages, Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel 32:21 use the exact same words.

2. Isaiah 9:6 is not talking about a future prophecy

2. 1 JPS Isaiah 9:6 – For a Child has been born to us, a son has been given to us and authority has settled on his shoulders.​

2. 2 NET Bible (2006) Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. …​

2. 3 The message Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born–for us! the gift of a son–for us! …​

2. 4 Contemporary English version Isaiah 9:6 – A child has been born for us. We have been given a son…​

2. 5 Lexham English Bible Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. …​

2. 6 New Century version Isaiah 9:6 – A child has been born to us; God has given a son to us. …​

2. 7 The Empathised Bible Isaiah 9:6 – For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us…​

2. 8 Young’s Literal Translation Isaiah 9:6 – For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us…​

How can Isaiah 9:6 be a prophecy of Jesus if the incident already took place, before the coming of the Messiah (Jesus)? Read the words at the start, “has been born to us, a son has.” Something that happened before Jesus, how can a trinitarian try and claim that “this is a Prophecy of Jesus.” If something happened in the PAST, it happened in the past! You can’t try change its meaning and say, “this is a Prophecy of the future.”

3. What Scholars say on Isaiah 9:6:

3. 1 Reverend. G. Buchanan:

“–Mighty God]… the great (and) mighty God, Dt 10:17, Neh 9:32, Jer 32:18. The ambiguous of Ezekiel 32:21, the application of to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel 31:11 and the fact, if it be such, that in the remaining three clauses of the name here the words are cstr. And gen., scarcely justify a departure from the obvious rendering mighty God in favour of god of a hero and still less a whittling down of the meaning of, to hero, so that the clause means no more than “mighty hero.” [3]​

3. 2 T.R. Applebury and Paul T. Butler:

“This child is also called ‘el gibor’, Mighty God. Literally God-Hero. One who overcomes, a victor, would be appropriate synonyms.” [4]​

Reading the above scholarly statements, when ‘El gibor’ is used in Isaiah 9:6, for the child it only means: – ‘Mighty Hero’ or ‘Mighty Warrior’. And this is the correct way of translating the verse.

If Evangelists keep on insisting that ‘Mighty God’ is the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6, then they have to be consistent and also apply the same criteria for Ezekiel 32:21, and write ‘Mighty Gods’ instead of ‘Mighty Warrior’ for the heathen Kings. Remember, as I showed earlier, Isaiah 9:6 and Ezekiel 32 :21 have both got the same Hebrew words (El Gibor – El giborim), but yet trintarians translate Isaiah 9:6 as ‘MIGHTY GOD’ for the child. Yet, when it comes to Ezekiel, they write ‘Mighty Warrior’. This is not being consistent. This is lying and deliberately misleading people.

The previous three Scholars quoted are not the only ones that disagree with trinitarian translations for Isaiah 9:6. There are many more Christian Scholars who also agree that Isaiah 9:6 when translated, it should be translated as ‘Mighty Hero’ or ‘Mighty Warrior’, not ‘Mighty God’!

3. 3 Biblical Scholar Arthur Samuel Peake:

“‘Mighty God’. Better, divine warrior, (Heb. El Gibbor, literally, a God of a warrior). The term ‘El’ was not exclusively used of beings believed to be really divine (x. 21) but was employed also of men in whom, as invested with godlike power or authority… The expression Divine warrior describes the child as endued with superhuman prowess.” [5]​

3. 4 The revised English Bible who was planned and directed by representatives of:

The Baptist Union of Great Britain.
The Church of England
The Church of Scotland
The council of Churches of Wales
The Irish council of Churches
The London Yearly Meeting of the religious society of friends
The Methodist church of Great Britain
The Moravian Church in Great Britain and Ireland
The Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales
The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland
The Roman Catholic Church in Scotland
The Salvation Army
The United Reform Church
The Bible society
The National Bible Society of Scotland

Sixteen different Christian denominations, all came together and translated Isaiah 9:6:

“For a child has been born to us, a son is given to us; he will bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder, and his title will be: Wonderful counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” [6]​

Sixteen different Christian denominations coming together and stating “el gibor” does not mean “Mighty God.” According to them”El gibor” means “Mighty hero” when used for Isaiah 9:6.

3. 5 Professor of Greek and New Testament, James Moffatt:

“For a child is born to us, a child has been given to us; the royal dignity he wears, and this the title bears – ‘A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince’” [7]​

In Jewish culture, if you read the Old Testament, there are many examples where people/prophets been called by “Godly” names. The Jewish study Bible:

• Isaiah in Hebrew means “The Lord saves.”
• Hezekiah means “The Lord strengthens.”
• Merodach-baladan (Isaiah 39:1) means “the god Marduk has provided an heir.”

Straight after giving these examples (above), the “JSB” says the following on Isaiah 9:6:

“The name given to the child in this verse (Isaiah 9) does not describe that child or attribute divinity to him.” [8]​

3. 6 Adolph Ernst Knoch:

“Concordant Literal Version Isaiah 9:6 A son, he is given to us, and the chieftain-ship shall come to be on his shoulder and one shall call his name Marvelous counsel to the master shall he bring, unto the chief, well-being.” [9]​

3. 7 Ferrar Fenton Bible translation:

“Isaiah 9:6 For a son has been born, a gift to us,- On his shoulder the princedom rests,- The wonderful Counsellor, call his NAME, GREAT LEADER, Time’s Father, the Prince of Peace! Now endless order and Peace shall spread O’er David’s Kingdom and throne.” [10]​

3. 8 Charles Thomson Bible translation:

“Thomson’s Translation: Isaiah 9:5 away, and the rod which was over their neck. For he hath broken the rod of the exactor, as in the day of Madiam : for, with a renewal of friendship, they shall make compensation for every robe collected by deceit, and for every garment; and shall be willing to do so, if they were burned with fire : 6 because for us a child is born, and to us a son is given, whose government is on his own shoulder ; and his name is called, ” The Messenger of Great Counsel” For I will bring peace.” [11]​

3. 9. The Septuagint LXX translated by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton:

“Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgement and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever.” [12]​

3. 10 Craig A. Evans:

“[cf. Isa 9:6], suggesting that the passage was understood in a messianic sense in the first century. The LXX seems to understand the passage in a messianic sense. We find in the Greek version a similar effort to AVOID applying to the Davidide divine epithets (‘and his name is called The Messenger of Great counsel’”).” [13]​

We conclude from this section that Isaiah 9:6 should be translated as ‘Mighty Hero’ for the child. I have quoted more than 10 Scholars for the verse and they all agree that ‘Mighty Hero’ is the most appropriate translation for Isaiah 9:6.

4. Jesus: “Prince of Peace?”

4. 1 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35″For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.” – Matthew 10:34-36​

4. 2 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three…” – Luke 12:51-52​

4. 3 “And He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.” – Luke 22:36​

This next verse is very interesting for our readers! Jesus will come back to murder:

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ” – Luke 19:27​

In the above verse, Jesus describes himself to a “King”. “e see from the passage when Jesus comes back the second time, whoever does not accept him as a King, he (Jesus) will slaughter them, mainly the Jews. How do we know Luke 19:27 is about Jesus, and that he will murder people for not accepting him as a King? Well let’s read the following Commentary on the Bible, by Mathew Henry. He writes:

“In the sentence passed upon them at his return: Those mine enemies bring hither, v. 27. When his faithful subjects are preferred and rewarded, then he will take vengeance on his enemies, and particularly on the Jewish nation, the doom of which is here read. When Christ had set up his gospel kingdom, and thereby put reputation upon the gospel ministry, then he comes to reckon with the Jews; then it is remembered against them that they had particularly disclaimed and protested against his kingly office, when they said, We have no king but Cæsar, nor would own him for their king. They appealed to Cæsar, and to Cæsar they shall go; Cæsar shall be their ruin. Then the kingdom of God appeared when vengeance was taken on those irreconcilable enemies to Christ and his government; they were brought forth and slain before him. Never was so much slaughter made in any war as in the wars of the Jews. That nation lived to see Christianity victorious in the Gentile world, in spite of their enmity and opposition to it, and then it was taken away as dross. The wrath of Christ came upon them to the uttermost (1 Thess. ii. 15, 16), and their destruction redounded very much to the honour of Christ and the peace of the church. But this is applicable to all others who persist in their infidelity, and will undoubtedly perish in it. Note, [1.] Utter ruin will certainly be the portion of all Christ’s enemies; in the day of vengeance they shall all be brought forth, and slain before him. Bring them hither, to be made a spectacle to saints and angels; see Josh. x. 22, 24. Bring them hither, that they may see the glory and happiness of Christ and his followers, whom they hated and persecuted. Bring them hither, to have their frivolous pleas overruled, and to receive sentence according to their merits. Bring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel. The Saviour whom they have slighted will stand by and see them slain, and not interpose on their behalf. [2.] Those that will not have Christ to reign over them shall be reputed and dealt with as his enemies. We are ready to think that none are Christ’s enemies but persecutors of Christianity, or scoffers at least; but you see that those will be accounted so that dislike the terms of salvation, will not submit to Christ’s yoke, but will be their own masters. Note, Whoever will not be ruled by the grace of Christ will inevitably be ruined by the wrath of Christ.” [14]​

Luke 19:27, contradicts Isaiah 9:6-7:

“Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” – Isaiah 9:6-7​

Isaiah 9:6-7 says that the person will be called “Prince of Peace”, and that “Peace there will be no end”. Going further on the verse states, “establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.”

How could Jesus be the Prophesied Prophet in Isaiah 9:6, when he never came for Peace? Remember, it says he will reign forever in PEACE. Now we know Jesus will come back and slaughter people for not accepting him as a “King” over them. What sort of peaceful ruler is that, when he will be slaughtering people just for not accepting him as a “King?” As we have read the evidences, it is clear that Isaiah 9:6 cannot be a Prophesy of Jesus, since it contradicts verses from the New Testament

Br. Ibn Anwar made some beautiful arguments against “Prince of Peace” arguments Christians love bring up. Visit his article here: http://unveiling-christianity.org/2008/10/25/a-study-of-isaiah-96/


5. There is “one God” and there is none else besides Him:

The old Testament rejects the “Trinity”. It clearly states there is no god besides God, there is nothing equal to God. We see a lot of missionaries try justify Isaiah 9:6 as a bound rock foundation that God is a “Triune God.” If you take a closer look at the Old Testament, God (Yahweh) makes it clear that there is “no one besides him.” There is no Jesus, No Holy Spirit, just God! Read the following verses that teach pure Monotheism:

• “To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.” – Isaiah 40:25
• “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me” – Isaiah 45:5
• “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” – Isaiah 43:11
• “Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8
• “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me…” – Isaiah 46:9
• “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” – Hosea 13:4

Conclusion:

I went over Isaiah 9:6 thoroughly, the verse in no way refers to the child mentioned as being “God.” I showed evidences that people were called ‘Ele Giborim.’ None of the trinitarian Bible translators use the word “Mighty Gods” for the Heathen Kings in Ezekiel 32:21. This shows that Christian trinitarians have deceptively translated the words in Isaiah 9:6, to elevate the divinity of Jesus in the Old testament! Last but not least, I showed that Isaiah 9:6 could not be a Prophecy of Jesus, since it clearly states that the ruler will ‘REIGN FOREVER IN PEACE’. Meaning, he would not kill people. But as I showed, Jesus will come back and slaughter innocent people, just for not accepting him as ‘King’ over them. This Shows that the verse being often cited by trintarians has nothing to do with Jesus nor is the child in any way Divine.

 

[Axl888]

It was this, it was in need of a response:



So I responded: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/on-the-trinity.6477/post-242534

Surely you don't actually think your saying anything meaningful by attempting such erroneous eisegesis with a verse like Jude 1:9, lmao.

The verse is self-explanatory, I don't know why you keep on twisting it to make it appear complicated. If Michael is God, why would he not dare to judge satan and say "I rebuke you, satan!"? And why would God with all his power dispute about a corpse with the devil in the first place? God can do whatever He wants, what the devil can do about it? And in the preceding verse Jude 1:5, if Michael is God, Jude would have said "that Michael" instead of "that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt", am I right?

No, that's exactly what the verse states, word for word. It also compares the moral and metaphysical as distinct, in the manner that Man's nature is to be man and God's nature is to be God, that there is no overlap. Actually, I was about to mention to you that God's very nature is in opposition (metaphysically) to Man's because God is God and not Man. However you already mentioned that. If God could be a Man, then Atheism would have to be true but we already know that Atheism isn't true.

OK, so man lies or sins, and Jesus Christ is only a man according to you, so are you claiming now that Jesus Christ has lied and sinned?

 

[Axl888]

Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most favourite verse’s a Christian trinitarian loves to bring-up for the deity of Jesus. According to trinitarians they believe Isaiah 9:6 without doubt proves that the person that is mentioned is Divine and is “Yahweh in Flesh.” We have to take a look and see what does the Hebrew words “El Gibor” mean, is “El Gibor” (‘Mighty God’, trinitarian translation) only used for God alone? Have humans been called by that name i.e “El” and “Gibor?” We shall find out:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” – Isaiah 9:6​

If anyone just reads the above verse at face value it looks as if the person who is mentioned is indeed “God.” But if we take a closer look at the verse after a thorough examination, you would realise the verse does not say anything about the person being “God” at all! The words have been twisted and changed by trinitarians and made it out as if it saying the person is “God in flesh.”


1. Is the Hebrew word “El gibor” only used for God?
What does the word “El” mean? Does the word “El” refer to God alone? Here is the following meanings for “El” from a Christian website:

1) god, god-like one, mighty one​

a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes​

b) angels​

c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)​

d) God, the one true God, Jehovah​

2) mighty things in nature​

3) strength, power [1]​

Notice, the word “El” is NOT exclusively referred to Yahweh (God) alone. It is referred to ‘god-like’, ‘mighty men’, ‘men of rank’, ‘mighty heroes’ and even ‘angels’. If you read the following passage, Ezekiel 33:11, the term “El” is used for a King:

“Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; I have therefore delivered him into the hand of themighty one (El) of the heathen.” – Ezekiel 33:11​

Here, God (Yahweh) says he delivered the person in the “hand of the Mighty one” (el), i.e the Heathen king. Should we attribute divinity to the king, like the true “Elohim?” Obvious response from a Christian missionary is: “no he cannot be the true ‘God’, since he is a human being.” This verse (below) you will notice the word “giborim” used in Plural.

“By the swords of the mighty (giborim) will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.” – Ezekiel 32:12​

The following passage, has the words “El” and “gibor” together simultaneously:

“The strong (El) among the mighty (gibor) shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” – Ezekiel 32:21 [2]​

Notice how the above verse (Ezekiel 32:21) has the exact words as Isaiah 9:6, but in plural. Since the words “El” and “gibor” are used simultaneously together, should the people referred to be Divine like Yahweh? Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel are both the same, except in Ezekiel 32:21 it is used in plural. If Christian trinitarians are truthful and consistent, why don’t they write in their Bible translations “MIGHTY GODS” in capital letters for Ezekiel 32:21?

There are some trinitarians who will try to argue and say, ‘actually they are not ‘Gods’, since they were Gentiles, Heathen Kings.’ These type of arguments apologists cling on to have no basis whatsoever. It doesn’t matter if the people were not believers, gentiles or heathens etc. Fact of the matter remains they were called “Ele Giborim” (‘Mighty Gods’). If Apologists continue to say “Isaiah 9:6 proves the Child is God”, then Christian apologists, at-least be truthful with yourselves, and start making the heathen Kings GODS as well, since both passages, Isaiah 9:6, and Ezekiel 32:21 use the exact same words.

2. Isaiah 9:6 is not talking about a future prophecy

2. 1 JPS Isaiah 9:6 – For a Child has been born to us, a son has been given to us and authority has settled on his shoulders.​

2. 2 NET Bible (2006) Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. …​

2. 3 The message Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born–for us! the gift of a son–for us! …​

2. 4 Contemporary English version Isaiah 9:6 – A child has been born for us. We have been given a son…​

2. 5 Lexham English Bible Isaiah 9:6 – For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. …​

2. 6 New Century version Isaiah 9:6 – A child has been born to us; God has given a son to us. …​

2. 7 The Empathised Bible Isaiah 9:6 – For, A Child, hath been born to us, A Son, hath been given to us…​

2. 8 Young’s Literal Translation Isaiah 9:6 – For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us…​

How can Isaiah 9:6 be a prophecy of Jesus if the incident already took place, before the coming of the Messiah (Jesus)? Read the words at the start, “has been born to us, a son has.” Something that happened before Jesus, how can a trinitarian try and claim that “this is a Prophecy of Jesus.” If something happened in the PAST, it happened in the past! You can’t try change its meaning and say, “this is a Prophecy of the future.”

3. What Scholars say on Isaiah 9:6:

3. 1 Reverend. G. Buchanan:

“–Mighty God]… the great (and) mighty God, Dt 10:17, Neh 9:32, Jer 32:18. The ambiguous of Ezekiel 32:21, the application of to Nebuchadnezzar in Ezekiel 31:11 and the fact, if it be such, that in the remaining three clauses of the name here the words are cstr. And gen., scarcely justify a departure from the obvious rendering mighty God in favour of god of a hero and still less a whittling down of the meaning of, to hero, so that the clause means no more than “mighty hero.” [3]​

3. 2 T.R. Applebury and Paul T. Butler:

“This child is also called ‘el gibor’, Mighty God. Literally God-Hero. One who overcomes, a victor, would be appropriate synonyms.” [4]​

Reading the above scholarly statements, when ‘El gibor’ is used in Isaiah 9:6, for the child it only means: – ‘Mighty Hero’ or ‘Mighty Warrior’. And this is the correct way of translating the verse.

If Evangelists keep on insisting that ‘Mighty God’ is the correct translation for Isaiah 9:6, then they have to be consistent and also apply the same criteria for Ezekiel 32:21, and write ‘Mighty Gods’ instead of ‘Mighty Warrior’ for the heathen Kings. Remember, as I showed earlier, Isaiah 9:6 and Ezekiel 32 :21 have both got the same Hebrew words (El Gibor – El giborim), but yet trintarians translate Isaiah 9:6 as ‘MIGHTY GOD’ for the child. Yet, when it comes to Ezekiel, they write ‘Mighty Warrior’. This is not being consistent. This is lying and deliberately misleading people.

The previous three Scholars quoted are not the only ones that disagree with trinitarian translations for Isaiah 9:6. There are many more Christian Scholars who also agree that Isaiah 9:6 when translated, it should be translated as ‘Mighty Hero’ or ‘Mighty Warrior’, not ‘Mighty God’!

3. 3 Biblical Scholar Arthur Samuel Peake:

“‘Mighty God’. Better, divine warrior, (Heb. El Gibbor, literally, a God of a warrior). The term ‘El’ was not exclusively used of beings believed to be really divine (x. 21) but was employed also of men in whom, as invested with godlike power or authority… The expression Divine warrior describes the child as endued with superhuman prowess.” [5]​

3. 4 The revised English Bible who was planned and directed by representatives of:

The Baptist Union of Great Britain.
The Church of England
The Church of Scotland
The council of Churches of Wales
The Irish council of Churches
The London Yearly Meeting of the religious society of friends
The Methodist church of Great Britain
The Moravian Church in Great Britain and Ireland
The Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales
The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland
The Roman Catholic Church in Scotland
The Salvation Army
The United Reform Church
The Bible society
The National Bible Society of Scotland

Sixteen different Christian denominations, all came together and translated Isaiah 9:6:

“For a child has been born to us, a son is given to us; he will bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder, and his title will be: Wonderful counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” [6]​

Sixteen different Christian denominations coming together and stating “el gibor” does not mean “Mighty God.” According to them”El gibor” means “Mighty hero” when used for Isaiah 9:6.

3. 5 Professor of Greek and New Testament, James Moffatt:

“For a child is born to us, a child has been given to us; the royal dignity he wears, and this the title bears – ‘A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince’” [7]​

In Jewish culture, if you read the Old Testament, there are many examples where people/prophets been called by “Godly” names. The Jewish study Bible:

• Isaiah in Hebrew means “The Lord saves.”
• Hezekiah means “The Lord strengthens.”
• Merodach-baladan (Isaiah 39:1) means “the god Marduk has provided an heir.”

Straight after giving these examples (above), the “JSB” says the following on Isaiah 9:6:

“The name given to the child in this verse (Isaiah 9) does not describe that child or attribute divinity to him.” [8]​

3. 6 Adolph Ernst Knoch:

“Concordant Literal Version Isaiah 9:6 A son, he is given to us, and the chieftain-ship shall come to be on his shoulder and one shall call his name Marvelous counsel to the master shall he bring, unto the chief, well-being.” [9]​

3. 7 Ferrar Fenton Bible translation:

“Isaiah 9:6 For a son has been born, a gift to us,- On his shoulder the princedom rests,- The wonderful Counsellor, call his NAME, GREAT LEADER, Time’s Father, the Prince of Peace! Now endless order and Peace shall spread O’er David’s Kingdom and throne.” [10]​

3. 8 Charles Thomson Bible translation:

“Thomson’s Translation: Isaiah 9:5 away, and the rod which was over their neck. For he hath broken the rod of the exactor, as in the day of Madiam : for, with a renewal of friendship, they shall make compensation for every robe collected by deceit, and for every garment; and shall be willing to do so, if they were burned with fire : 6 because for us a child is born, and to us a son is given, whose government is on his own shoulder ; and his name is called, ” The Messenger of Great Counsel” For I will bring peace.” [11]​

3. 9. The Septuagint LXX translated by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton:

“Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgement and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever.” [12]​

3. 10 Craig A. Evans:

“[cf. Isa 9:6], suggesting that the passage was understood in a messianic sense in the first century. The LXX seems to understand the passage in a messianic sense. We find in the Greek version a similar effort to AVOID applying to the Davidide divine epithets (‘and his name is called The Messenger of Great counsel’”).” [13]​

We conclude from this section that Isaiah 9:6 should be translated as ‘Mighty Hero’ for the child. I have quoted more than 10 Scholars for the verse and they all agree that ‘Mighty Hero’ is the most appropriate translation for Isaiah 9:6.

4. Jesus: “Prince of Peace?”

4. 1 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35″For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.” – Matthew 10:34-36​

4. 2 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three…” – Luke 12:51-52​

4. 3 “And He said to them, “But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.” – Luke 22:36​

This next verse is very interesting for our readers! Jesus will come back to murder:

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ” – Luke 19:27​

In the above verse, Jesus describes himself to a “King”. “e see from the passage when Jesus comes back the second time, whoever does not accept him as a King, he (Jesus) will slaughter them, mainly the Jews. How do we know Luke 19:27 is about Jesus, and that he will murder people for not accepting him as a King? Well let’s read the following Commentary on the Bible, by Mathew Henry. He writes:

“In the sentence passed upon them at his return: Those mine enemies bring hither, v. 27. When his faithful subjects are preferred and rewarded, then he will take vengeance on his enemies, and particularly on the Jewish nation, the doom of which is here read. When Christ had set up his gospel kingdom, and thereby put reputation upon the gospel ministry, then he comes to reckon with the Jews; then it is remembered against them that they had particularly disclaimed and protested against his kingly office, when they said, We have no king but Cæsar, nor would own him for their king. They appealed to Cæsar, and to Cæsar they shall go; Cæsar shall be their ruin. Then the kingdom of God appeared when vengeance was taken on those irreconcilable enemies to Christ and his government; they were brought forth and slain before him. Never was so much slaughter made in any war as in the wars of the Jews. That nation lived to see Christianity victorious in the Gentile world, in spite of their enmity and opposition to it, and then it was taken away as dross. The wrath of Christ came upon them to the uttermost (1 Thess. ii. 15, 16), and their destruction redounded very much to the honour of Christ and the peace of the church. But this is applicable to all others who persist in their infidelity, and will undoubtedly perish in it. Note, [1.] Utter ruin will certainly be the portion of all Christ’s enemies; in the day of vengeance they shall all be brought forth, and slain before him. Bring them hither, to be made a spectacle to saints and angels; see Josh. x. 22, 24. Bring them hither, that they may see the glory and happiness of Christ and his followers, whom they hated and persecuted. Bring them hither, to have their frivolous pleas overruled, and to receive sentence according to their merits. Bring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel. The Saviour whom they have slighted will stand by and see them slain, and not interpose on their behalf. [2.] Those that will not have Christ to reign over them shall be reputed and dealt with as his enemies. We are ready to think that none are Christ’s enemies but persecutors of Christianity, or scoffers at least; but you see that those will be accounted so that dislike the terms of salvation, will not submit to Christ’s yoke, but will be their own masters. Note, Whoever will not be ruled by the grace of Christ will inevitably be ruined by the wrath of Christ.” [14]​

Luke 19:27, contradicts Isaiah 9:6-7:

“Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” – Isaiah 9:6-7​

Isaiah 9:6-7 says that the person will be called “Prince of Peace”, and that “Peace there will be no end”. Going further on the verse states, “establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.”

How could Jesus be the Prophesied Prophet in Isaiah 9:6, when he never came for Peace? Remember, it says he will reign forever in PEACE. Now we know Jesus will come back and slaughter people for not accepting him as a “King” over them. What sort of peaceful ruler is that, when he will be slaughtering people just for not accepting him as a “King?” As we have read the evidences, it is clear that Isaiah 9:6 cannot be a Prophesy of Jesus, since it contradicts verses from the New Testament

Br. Ibn Anwar made some beautiful arguments against “Prince of Peace” arguments Christians love bring up. Visit his article here: http://unveiling-christianity.org/2008/10/25/a-study-of-isaiah-96/


5. There is “one God” and there is none else besides Him:

The old Testament rejects the “Trinity”. It clearly states there is no god besides God, there is nothing equal to God. We see a lot of missionaries try justify Isaiah 9:6 as a bound rock foundation that God is a “Triune God.” If you take a closer look at the Old Testament, God (Yahweh) makes it clear that there is “no one besides him.” There is no Jesus, No Holy Spirit, just God! Read the following verses that teach pure Monotheism:

• “To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.” – Isaiah 40:25
• “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me” – Isaiah 45:5
• “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” – Isaiah 43:11
• “Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8
• “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me…” – Isaiah 46:9
• “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” – Hosea 13:4

Conclusion:

I went over Isaiah 9:6 thoroughly, the verse in no way refers to the child mentioned as being “God.” I showed evidences that people were called ‘Ele Giborim.’ None of the trinitarian Bible translators use the word “Mighty Gods” for the Heathen Kings in Ezekiel 32:21. This shows that Christian trinitarians have deceptively translated the words in Isaiah 9:6, to elevate the divinity of Jesus in the Old testament! Last but not least, I showed that Isaiah 9:6 could not be a Prophecy of Jesus, since it clearly states that the ruler will ‘REIGN FOREVER IN PEACE’. Meaning, he would not kill people. But as I showed, Jesus will come back and slaughter innocent people, just for not accepting him as ‘King’ over them. This Shows that the verse being often cited by trintarians has nothing to do with Jesus nor is the child in any way Divine.

OK, wait a minute, so you focused on the "Mighty God" translation and your usual attack on Jesus Christ as being just a man and not God, but how about the "Everlasting Father"? Is there any Everlasting Father other than God Himself?

If you think Jesus Christ is not the Prince of Peace, then the strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:11) has totally taken you over.

 

[Infinityloop]

The verse is self-explanatory, I don't know why you keep on twisting it to make it appear complicated. If Michael is God, why would he not dare to judge satan and say "I rebuke you, satan!"? And why would God with all his power dispute about a corpse with the devil in the first place? God can do whatever He wants, what the devil can do about it? And in the preceding verse Jude 1:5, if Michael is God, Jude would have said "that Michael" instead of "that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt", am I right?

This was already addressed here: https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/on-the-trinity.6477/post-242534

OK, so man lies or sins, and Jesus Christ is only a man according to you, so are you claiming now that Jesus Christ has lied and sinned?

No, I'm not claiming that, I'm reminding you that your bad eisegesis cannot change what is written in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter how many excuses you make, a poor argument is just that. You say a man can be God, the Old Testament says otherwise.
This is setting aside how even the New Testament itself inherently disagrees with you, as constantly made obvious in this and other threads.

Ok, but lets take your question, under the presumption that you have the correct notions about Jesus historically (the falsehood that he was claiming to literally be God). Lets imagine how this question would be answered by Israelites, Samaritans, Essenes and Jews.

As I posted back in #84:

Jesus undeniably confirms the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4, the core Jewish doctrine) without addition:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
- Mark 12:28-34

Now, to see him unabashedly reaffirm The Shema, he, by the very essence of the Shema, will not contradict it. Jesus himself believed the Shema, he never added to it ("Oh yeah, I happen to be God as well, that's me!").

Now let's pretend that Jesus was claiming to be God. According to the whole Old Testament, yes, he has sinned, committed the biggest act of blasphemy. So in the position of Israelites, Samaritans, Essenes and Jews, Jesus would be indeed a sinner and a disbeliever under the pretenses you've alleged (Jesus claiming to be God).

Now, if we presume that you are correct, then the following passage from Deuteronomy would make sense and Jesus would be indeed considered a false prophet:

“A prophet or a diviner of dreams may arise among you, give you an omen or a miracle that takes place, and then he may tell you, ‘Let’s follow other gods (whom you have not known) and let’s serve them.’ Even though the sign or portent comes to pass, you must not listen to the words of that prophet or that diviner of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to make known whether or not you’ll continue to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul. You must follow the Lord your God, fear him, observe his commandments, listen to his voice, serve him, and cling to him. That prophet or diviner of dreams must be executed, because he advocated rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, and because he lured you from the way in which the Lord your God instructed you to live. Purge the evil from among you.”
- Deuteronomy 13 1-5

The passage speaks for itself.

 

[Infinityloop]

If you think Jesus Christ is not the Prince of Peace, then the strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:11) has totally taken you over.

The "strong delusion" is the Trinity doctrine

It's strong, a delusion, irrational, indefensible, anti-scriptural, contradictory of both the Torah and observable reality, introduced as doctrine in the 4th century. There's your 'strong delusion'.

 

[Infinityloop]

and your usual attack on Jesus Christ as being just a man and not God

Any though to try to validate your position that a man can be God?

Jesus was a man, you're a man (presumably) and I am. None of us are God. God can't be a man, period. If God could be a man, then Atheism is your best bet

 

[Axl888]

Any though to try to validate your position that a man can be God?

Jesus was a man, you're a man (presumably) and I am. None of us are God. God can't be a man, period. If God could be a man, then Atheism is your best bet

And the Everlasting Father, who is He? Being forgetful are we.

 

[Infinityloop]

And the Everlasting Father, who is He? Being forgetful are we.

Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years" (Isaiah 38:5). Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'" (Isaiah 39:8). The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement "that the government may be increased." Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people "from henceforth and forever." The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel's future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion. In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty Gd, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Etrnl of hosts will perform this.

Christians see the above verses from Isaiah 9 to be speaking of Jesus, who came into the world as a child. However, after having read the above quotation, a few questions should come to mind.

When did Jesus ever run any government?

When was Jesus ever called a Wonderful Counselor, or a Mighty Gd, or an Everlasting Father, or a Prince of Peace? Jesus was never called by any of these names anywhere in the Christians’ New Testament and not at all in his own lifetime.

Christians always seem to misunderstand this quotation. This is because they do not understand Hebrew, nor do they understand names, nor do they understand Hebrew names.

First, let us understand names. In most languages, every name has a meaning. The name ‘Anthony’ means ‘priceless’ and the name ‘Alexander’ means ‘protector.’ If we were to give a child the first and middle names of Anthony Alexander, would that mean that we are saying that this child is a ‘priceless protector?’ Would we call out to them, ‘Hey, Priceless Protector, how are you?’ Of course not.

Hebrew names sometimes say something about Gd. The name Michael means ‘who is like Gd.’ The name Elihu means ‘my Gd is He,’ or ‘He is my Gd.’ The name Immanuel means ‘Gd is with us,’ just to give a few examples. If someone has the name, Elihu, (again, meaning ‘He is my Gd’) would that mean that the human being known as Elihu is Gd? These names say something about Gd, even though they are the names of ordinary human beings. A better translation to the verse in question might be:

…and his name will be called, ‘A wonderful counselor is the mighty Gd, an everlasting father is the ruler of peace.’

This means that there are really only two Hebrew names in the verse, which are given to a human being and not to a divine being, even though the names make a statement about Gd. Those names, like Anthony Alexander in our example above, would be ‘Pele Yoetz El Gibor Avi Ad Sar Shalom.’ The way it is written in the original Hebrew, the names would be hyphenated as ‘Pele-Yoetz-El-Gibor’ and ‘Avi-Ad-Sar-Shalom.’ Lengthy names like these were not uncommon in the Bible, and in Isaiah specifically. For example, in Isaiah 8:3, we find the name, ‘Maher-shalal-chash-baz,’ which means ‘the spoil speeds, the prey hastens.’

But let us suppose that this verse really did contain four names. How well would they apply to Jesus? Is this a case where at first the description of the person described in Isaiah 9:6-7 sounds like the story of Jesus, but, on closer examination, it isn’t?

‘Wonderful Counselor’

In the Christian’s New Testament we find two stories about Jesus that certainly do not describe him as a Wonderful Counselor:

Another of the disciples said to him, ‘Lord, let me first go and bury my father.’ But Jesus said to him, ‘Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.’ [Matthew 8:21]

What kind of ‘Wonderful Counselor’ would tell a man who had recently lost his beloved father not to see to his father’s funeral?

When he had said this, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, ‘Is that how you answer the high priest?’ Jesus answered him, ‘If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?’ [John 18:22-23]

Everyone is familiar with the quotation from Jesus, ‘Do not resist one who is evil, but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.’ [Matthew 5:39] In the quotation above from John 18, Jesus does not turn his other cheek to the one who struck him, but rebukes him instead. One who says one thing but does another is called a hypocrite, and how can a hypocrite be a ‘Wonderful Counselor?’

‘Mighty Gd.’

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ that is, ‘My Gd, My Gd, why hast thou forsaken me?’ [Matthew 27:46]

If Jesus were the ‘Mighty Gd,’ why would he have to call upon another as Gd in order to save him? How can Gd forsake himself? This also denies the very idea of a trinity, and shows how Jesus does not fit the description of the Isaiah 9 quotation.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Gd: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [Matthew 19:16-17]

In the above verses, Jesus distinguishes between himself and Gd. How could he have been the ‘Mighty Gd,’ if he himself made a distinction between himself and Gd? If Jesus knew that only Gd is good, and that he should not be called good, then Jesus knew that Jesus was not Gd.

‘Everlasting Father’

In the trinity, Jesus is the son, and not the Father. He cannot be both at the same time. As a matter of fact, Jesus himself showed that he was not the Father, and claimed not to have the same will, or the same knowledge as the Father.

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.’ [Matthew 26:39]

Jesus calls the One to whom he prayed his Father, so how can Jesus be ‘the Everlasting Father,’ if he called another his Father? How could Jesus be the Father if the will of Jesus is not the same as the will of the Father? This denies the very idea of the trinity.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. [Mark 13:32]

In the above verse, Jesus claims there is something that he does not know, but that only the Father knows. So how can Jesus, ‘the son,’ also be the Father if their knowledge is not the same?

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Gd, and your Gd. [John 20:17]

How can the Father ascend to Himself? In the above verse, Jesus not only distinguishes between himself and his Father, but he also makes it sound as though the relationship that he has with Gd, ‘The Father,’ is exactly the same relationship that all people have with Gd, who is, in fact, the Father of all.

‘Prince of Peace’

First of all, this is a mistranslation. The words in the original Hebrew are, ‘sar shalom.’ The word ‘sar’ does not mean ‘prince,’ it means ‘ruler.’ Now, one might say that a ‘prince’ is a ‘ruler.’ However, the reason why the Christians choose the word ‘prince’ instead of the word ‘ruler’ in Christian translations is that the word ‘prince’ makes one think that the original verse is speaking of a ‘son of the king,’ which in the Christian mind alludes to Jesus whom they believe to have been the son of Gd, the King. However, the word is ‘ruler,’ and not ‘prince.’ ‘Prince’ in Hebrew is ‘nasee’ and not ‘sar.’ The Christian translators intentionally chose the English word ‘prince’ to lead the reader into thinking about Jesus.

In the Christian’s New Testament, we also find a quotation which certainly does not show Jesus to have been a ‘ruler’ or even a ‘prince of peace.’

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. [Matthew 10:34-36]

How could anyone who said such a thing be considered a prince or ruler of peace? How could anyone who said such a thing have been the Messiah? We know that the true Messiah will bring an everlasting peace and, along with Elijah the Prophet, will bring families closer to each other and not further apart (see Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:1-4, and Malachi 4:5).

I have already stated that Christians rarely include verse 7 when they quote Isaiah chapter 9. The reason is that in verse 7 it states, ‘Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.’ Perhaps they do not quote verse 7 because Jesus never brought peace to the world, nor did he ever intend to, as the above quotation from Matthew 10:34-36 shows.

Jesus was also a violent man, and neither a ‘Prince of Peace,’ nor even a ‘Ruler of Peace.’ There are other verses in the Christian’s New Testament that indicate this. Here are two more:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.[Luke 19:27]

The verse above comes at the end of a parable that Jesus told, of a man that leaves his land to go to be anointed as the King. When he comes back to his land, he says the above verse. Every single Christian commentator claims that Jesus was referring to himself as the man who left his land to be anointed King, and so in his own parable, Jesus is saying the above, asking that those who do not wish to have him reign over them be murdered in front of him.

In the verse, below, Jesus tells his followers to go and buy a sword.

And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. [Luke 22:35]

We have shown from quotations from the Christian’s New Testament that Jesus was not a ‘Wonderful Counselor, Jesus was not a ‘Mighty Gd,’ Jesus was not an ‘Everlasting Father,’ nor was Jesus a ‘Prince of Peace’ or even a ‘Ruler of Peace,’ in spite of how Christians wish to interpret the original verses from Isaiah 9:6-7.

So, according to the Jewish interpretation, who is Isaiah 9:6-7 speaking about?

According to Judaism, the answer is in the names chosen. The name ‘Hezekiah’ which in Hebrew is ‘Chizkiyah’ comes from the words ‘chazak’ and ‘Ya.’ ‘Chazak’ means ‘strong’ or ‘mighty’ and ‘Ya’ is the shortened name for Gd used as a suffix. Many might recognize the Ya’ in the word, ‘halleluyah’ which means,’praise Gd.’ Judaism believes that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to Hezekiah, who reigned for almost 30 years. The name Hezekiah, Chizkiyah, is the same name in meaning, as one finds in the verses from Isaiah 9:6-7, a ‘Mighty Gd.’