elsbet
Superstar
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- Jun 4, 2017
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Not that I have seen.This subject has already been tackled.
Are there jinn in heaven/ jannah, too?
Not that I have seen.This subject has already been tackled.
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-232040Not that I have seen.
Yes, Jinn are like us in a lot of ways and they have the same issues with believers and disbelievers etc. Some Jinn end up in "hell", others in "heaven", just like us.Are there jinn in heaven/ jannah, too?
Thanks for the response on jinns in heaven...https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-232040
Yes, Jinn are like us in a lot of ways and they have the same issues with believers and disbelievers etc. Some Jinn end up in "hell", others in "heaven", just like us.
I literally stated in that link "bliss, ecstasy, transcendence, union with God" etc. It's not a "place", it's a state after death.The carnal nature of heaven/ jannah, though---> you say it is symbolic? Of what, I wonder.
Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)I'm fascinated now, do you Christians of VC interpret "heaven" as a physical place?
Sorry - what was the question?!Day 666 of waiting for answers.
OK - the as is implied by the context and italicised in the King James. Reading the wider context and observing the outcomes of God’s anointing on Moses illustrates the purpose of God’s words here.
Not how you would, given that I don't buy into the Christian narrative about the Apocalypse of Saint John ("Book of Revelation") to be a book about the end times.Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Given this verse @Infinityloop - how would you interpret it?
Interesting question - do you believe there was a literal Eden?Do you interpret this as a literal physical earth that we will return to if we accept Jesus as mangod?
And why would the "made you a God" in this verse which is being said BY God be a hyperbole because moses performed a miracle but a layman calling jesus "my god" after jesus performed a miracle. not be a hyperbole.OK - the as is implied by the context and italicised in the King James. Reading the wider context and observing the outcomes of God’s anointing on Moses illustrates the purpose of God’s words here.
In addition, the plagues of Egypt prefigure the judgement that will come on the whole earth during the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (The Tribulation) in which God himself will judge and bring calamity on those who reject His Son.
Sometimes in the Bible, hyperbole is used to highlight a point, not to create heresies.
Well yes. Not as your Bible states but yes.Do you believe there was a literal Eden?
You may be familiar with the story of Moses with the signs of the rod which was thrown down before Pharaoh, turns into a snake and then is picked up to become a rod once more? Then he shows the sign of the hand which is placed inside his cloths and turns leprous, is placed again and is restored?And why would the "made you a God" in this verse which is being said BY God be a hyperbole because moses performed a miracle but a layman calling jesus "my god" after jesus performed a miracle. not be a hyperbole.
but the as does not exist in KJV at all, its not italicized etc, it just simply does not exist. in Every kjv it says "i made thee a God" not "i made thee like a God" or "as a God".
And why is this not a proof of people changing verses according to what they believe, adding an "As" or "like" in other versions (not kjv) to make it fit trinity.
You may be familiar with the story of Moses with the signs of the rod which was thrown down before Pharaoh, turns into a snake and then is picked up to become a rod once more? Then he shows the sign of the hand which is placed inside his cloths and turns leprous, is placed again and is restored?
That background leads to another incident which sounds like some serious hyperbole from Moses:-
Numbers 12 (KJV)
12 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out...
Here Moses has taken a gentile bride and is criticised by Aaron and Miriam for doing so. He then makes an apparently extraordinary claim about his own humility. Why?
Does this prefigure anything?
What happens next?
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.
16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.
What I have come to notice over the years of studying the Bible is the use of “accidentals” - if you have a musical background you may already know about these... they are placed to get your attention, then find resolution in the later phrases of the song:-
Setting these ideas up, we have apparently ineffective parlour tricks that Moses shows to Pharaoh which his magicians were able to replicate. We then have an apparently grandiose claim to humility, followed by an inexplicably severe judgement on Miriam requiring a miracle to set right!
You may be familiar with the incident where Moses crafts a bronze serpent - after Jesus had died and “become sin” for us, the full meaning was unlocked:-
John 3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
In the same way, Moses patterns Jesus (illustrated by the “accidental” of a claim to greater humility than any man of the face of the earth) taking the Church as a gentile bride, the Jews speaking against her in envy (see the speech of Stephen) and ultimately the Jews being cut off and put out of the land (Miriam’s exile).
Exile is not the end of her story though - God is merciful and restores Miriam back to the camp after seven days [God’s perfect measure of time] just as God has (and will) restore Israel. After that restoration the people were able to move on in their journey to the Promised Land.
Part 1 of 2 btw...
I know the entire story, that is not the point.You may be familiar with the story of Moses with the signs of the rod which was thrown down before Pharaoh, turns into a snake and then is picked up to become a rod once more? Then he shows the sign of the hand which is placed inside his cloths and turns leprous, is placed again and is restored?
That background leads to another incident which sounds like some serious hyperbole from Moses:-
Numbers 12 (KJV)
12 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out...
Here Moses has taken a gentile bride and is criticised by Aaron and Miriam for doing so. He then makes an apparently extraordinary claim about his own humility. Why?
Does this prefigure anything?
What happens next?
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.
16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.
What I have come to notice over the years of studying the Bible is the use of “accidentals” - if you have a musical background you may already know about these... they are placed to get your attention, then find resolution in the later phrases of the song:-
Setting these ideas up, we have apparently ineffective parlour tricks that Moses shows to Pharaoh which his magicians were able to replicate. We then have an apparently grandiose claim to humility, followed by an inexplicably severe judgement on Miriam requiring a miracle to set right!
You may be familiar with the incident where Moses crafts a bronze serpent - after Jesus had died and “become sin” for us, the full meaning was unlocked:-
John 3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
In the same way, Moses patterns Jesus (illustrated by the “accidental” of a claim to greater humility than any man of the face of the earth) taking the Church as a gentile bride, the Jews speaking against her in envy (see the speech of Stephen) and ultimately the Jews being cut off and put out of the land (Miriam’s exile).
Exile is not the end of her story though - God is merciful and restores Miriam back to the camp after seven days [God’s perfect measure of time] just as God has (and will) restore Israel. After that restoration the people were able to move on in their journey to the Promised Land.
Part 1 of 2 btw...
If people search the bible they will see it in many places.
Search archaeology on any historical event clearly mentioned in the bible.So, 14 pages in, are you Christians gonna do anything to defend your Bible at all?
afterall you've only spoken about it in around 2 posts in total.
Convince us of the supposed authority of the Bible? Go!
I'm waiting.
(also, any appeals to chronology will be disqualified, you know they are only fallacious and do more harm to you than good)
There's not a lot out there that "supports the Bible", only things which confirm the existence of some of the cultures that correlate to some of the Bible. You don't have any confirmations or direct evidence, only hypothesis and things which you place into that hypothesis. Your claim also supports you as much as us, which you should know already.Search archaeology on any historical event clearly mentioned in the bible.
No matter how hard atheists try there is always evidence that supports the bible, or at very least does not contradict it.
You're not really asking a question here. We could use the same 'evidence' you just did, wouldn't prove anything to support you or us. Mainstream history does know about tribes of Jews 2500 years ago, as they do Hindus 30000 years ago.Your go now. Please find NON_ISLAMIC information sources that supports Muhammad's claims about history in the Quran. [You know your Quran, therefore you should know where they are.]