The reliability of Christian and Muslim texts compared

[manama]

lol

He was actually asking about your comment ---> Muslim-Orgies, in the afterlife (post no. 160). Since you said you'll be drinking, too, and otherwise carousing, in "paradise," the point is valid.

... it would be a wine that would not be intoxicating. God would allow us all that freedom after we pass the test of this world.​

​

You know... it's just grape juice if it doesn't intoxicate-- and you can drink that now. Where is the "freedom" in that? Sounds like a rip off (or a clever deception-- because it is). Wine is for this world-- to think that worldly indulgences would be a part of the spiritual domain is very strange. Similar though to the Hindus, who believe the same.

Since you already know the wine doesn't work, you may want to seriously (re)consider the quality of the debauchery for which you're holding out. Just saying.

I know what he meant, i'm not blind. It doesn't take one to be religious that Marriage is the joining of two souls under the blessings of God. The bond stays in afterlife though people have a choice depending on the circumstances of their marriage.
Sin wouldn't exist in the afterlife.


The only one getting r/wooosh here is you.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

lol

He was actually asking about your comment ---> Muslim-Orgies, in the afterlife (post no. 160). Since you said you'll be drinking, too, and otherwise carousing, in "paradise," the point is valid.

... it would be a wine that would not be intoxicating. God would allow us all that freedom after we pass the test of this world.​

​

You know... it's just grape juice if it doesn't intoxicate-- and you can drink that now. Where is the "freedom" in that? Sounds like a rip off (or a clever deception-- because it is). Wine is for this world-- to think that worldly indulgences would be a part of the spiritual domain is very strange. Similar though to the Hindus, who believe the same.

Since you already know the wine doesn't work, you may want to seriously (re)consider the quality of the debauchery for which you're holding out. Just saying.

It gets more complex...

“Ka’b ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, the souls of martyrs are in green birds, hanging from the fruit of Paradise, or the trees of Paradise.”

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1641

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Tirmidhi

Now I have a good imagination, but even I cannot picture the whole thing with the green birds and the 70 virgins working out, even if plenty of wine was involved. Not being rude, I just find it rather confusing!!

 

[manama]

72 virgins thing is not real. Stop bringing it up after being told that for the 100th time.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

72 virgins thing is not real. Stop bringing it up after being told that for the 100th time.

Ok, perhaps that was slightly flippant but it brings me to the question - what do you expect to do in Muslim heaven? It seems to me that getting to know Allah truly will not be one of those things as he will forever be other, distant and unknowable? What is there to look forward to?

 

[JoChris]

72 virgins thing is not real. Stop bringing it up after being told that for the 100th time.

From your Quran, the book you declare is uncorrupted.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Quran Sura 44:54 Thus. And We will marry them to fair women with large, [beautiful] eyes.

Plural. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#Quranic_description

So depending on the man's imagination could be 2, could be infinity.

The Wikipedia entry shows multiple verses promising MEN the same rewards.

----
Serious question: are there any similar promises for Muslim women who also want multiple partners in Heaven to satisfy their desires?

 

[Infinityloop]

Serious question: are there any similar promises for Muslim women who also want multiple partners in Heaven to satisfy their desires?

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-231992

 

[JoChris]

This isn't school, no one is defending anything other than the Quran we believe to be the literal word of God.

Don't talk about standards to me, you should take a long hard look at some of the nonsense you've written.

So the personal standards you keep to at school are dropped online. OK.

If what is typed by me or any other Christian is nonsense, then disprove it. With references, quotes, facts. Being a teacher that should come very easily to you.

 

[JoChris]

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-231992

That is a link to your claim that it has already been answered. Dismissal is not an answer.

The Quran is your religious text.
Christians have frequently answered the same questions, using the bible as a tool.
How come you won't quote the Quran's verses/ passages, if it is such a Holy Book?

e.g. contrast your responses with this verse:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If you believe what is written in the Quran, then you should be at very least OK with quoting it to non-muslims.

 

[Infinityloop]

That is a link to your claim that it has already been answered.

?​

How come you won't quote the Quran's verses/ passages, if it is such a Holy Book

?​

 

[manama]

It seems to me that getting to know Allah truly will not be one of those things as he will forever be other, distant and unknowable? What is there to look forward to?

We already know him as much as he allows and as much as we can comprehend, a love that is not limited or based on "he came and lived among us and then died for us" but based on that he created us and loves us. Islam has the most clear and concrete knowledge about who God is, we don't sit and stay unable to comprehend trinity or trying to understand a God who says one thing and then changes his looks and does another. And its simple because God shouldn't have trouble explaining something to his creation.
You are very wrong. The biggest gift that will be given to the people of Paradise would be finally seeing their God and creator for the first time.

 

[manama]

From your Quran, the book you declare is uncorrupted.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Quran Sura 44:54 Thus. And We will marry them to fair women with large, [beautiful] eyes.

Plural. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#Quranic_description

So depending on the man's imagination could be 2, could be infinity.

The Wikipedia entry shows multiple verses promising MEN the same rewards.


----
Serious question: are there any similar promises for Muslim women who also want multiple partners in Heaven to satisfy their desires?

"MARRY"

plus when Quran talks about all the gifts people will get in paradise, Allah talks about giving them to Muslims or Momins or the people of Paradise which includes men and women. Rather than calling it a man's imagination just say that its your imagination.

Also Envy and jealousy are both sins depending on where they are directed, in a world where people don't feel negativity or the need to sin, they won't feel those emotions.

 

[manama]

That is a link to your claim that it has already been answered. Dismissal is not an answer.

The Quran is your religious text.
Christians have frequently answered the same questions, using the bible as a tool.
How come you won't quote the Quran's verses/ passages, if it is such a Holy Book?

Lol you guys won't even quote the Bible directly when asked "Where did Jesus say to worship me?" so no, we quote verses, you don't.

That falls directly in line with what we Muslims know about the day of judgement and one of those things would be Isa p.b.u.h testifying against his people only for them to say they worshipped him or they sinned for him to which he would say "I never told you to worship me" which would then be confirmed by the Angels and the other Prophets and us and then God himself.

 

[JoChris]

Lol you guys won't even quote the Bible directly when asked "Where did Jesus say to worship me?" so no, we quote verses, you don't.

That falls directly in line with what we Muslims know about the day of judgement and one of those things would be Isa p.b.u.h testifying against his people only for them to say they worshipped him or they sinned for him to which he would say "I never told you to worship me" which would then be confirmed by the Angels and the other Prophets and us and then God himself.

But I have answered similar questions by Muslims on this forum and every time my answers have been dismissed. When Jesus is worshipped by others, He never stops them from doing that. Actions speak LOUDER than words.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/worship_jesus

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

JESUS DID NOT REBUKE THOMAS FOR WORSHIPPING HIM AS GOD. If Jesus was a mere prophet, He would have told Thomas to not do that.

Reading comprehension is required. Your "prophet" certainly had none.

 

[JoChris]

"MARRY"

plus when Quran talks about all the gifts people will get in paradise, Allah talks about giving them to Muslims or Momins or the people of Paradise which includes men and women. Rather than calling it a man's imagination just say that its your imagination.

Also Envy and jealousy are both sins depending on where they are directed, in a world where people don't feel negativity or the need to sin, they won't feel those emotions.

So a man will be able to **marry** as many wives as he wishes...

What about the woman? Does she get the same deal promised to men?

 

[JoChris]

?​

?​

Yeah, poorly worded that time.
Second try:
All You gave was a link to your response, and your original response to Elsbet was "This subject has already been tackled."

That is not an answer. That is deflection.

 

[manama]

But I have answered similar questions and every time they are dismissed. When Jesus is worshipped by others, He never stops them from doing that. Actions speak LOUDER than words.

People kill people all the time God doesn't stop them. Parents r*pe their kids all the kids, God doesn't stop them. By that logic if its happening then its alright and no punishment.

Plus after looking up a little, in many versions the verse doesn't have "and" in it. Whats to say that wasn't an exclamation of surprise considering he just saw a miracle? And again in the verse you posted, the person is not worshipping Jesus at all, that again falls into "I NEVER told you to worship me".

Plus in the Bible God tells Moses that he made Moses a God. Does that mean Moses is God too? Is Moses a part of trinity?

 

[manama]

So a man will be able to **marry** as many wives as he wishes...

What about the woman? Does she get the same deal promised to men?

Who talked about "as many"? Why are you trying to put your words into the verses? Are you trying to Gaslight us? I don't know about the latter, could apply to women and maybe couldn't. Not something I've looked into deeply considering a faith being correct is more important to me then whether or not I get multiple husbands when God has clearly said that anything we will want, we will get.

 

[Infinityloop]

All You gave was a link to your response, and your original response to Elsbet was "This subject has already been tackled."

That is not an answer. That is deflection.

But it indeed was, back on page 7:

Me: "Very much identically a "do you choose the life of this world, or the life of the next" kind of thing. This is setting aside that Jannah is always described symbolically, because "Heaven" (as you call it), is not a terrestrial place, it's not comparable to the Universe. These things can only be expressed through such symbols. The concept of Bliss, Ecstasy and so forth, are in fact the only kinds of expressions we can truly give to these things but they are not of an Earthly kind, they are of the transcendent kind. Unity with God, is the good path."

( https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-231112 )

 

[JoChris]

Who talked about "as many"? Why are you trying to put your words into the verses? Are you trying to Gaslight us? I don't know about the latter, could apply to women and maybe couldn't. Not something I've looked into deeply considering a faith being correct is more important to me then whether or not I get multiple husbands when God has clearly said that anything we will want, we will get.

I am asking questions that you Muslims should be asking yourselves.

The words about how many women a man will get in Islam's heaven are so ambiguous only the imagination is the limit.

Anything you want? What if the thing you want is evil or criminal in this life time? What if the thing you want was forbidden by Islam during your lifetime?

 

[JoChris]

But it indeed was, back on page 7:

Me: "Very much identically a "do you choose the life of this world, or the life of the next" kind of thing. This is setting aside that Jannah is always described symbolically, because "Heaven" (as you call it), is not a terrestrial place, it's not comparable to the Universe. These things can only be expressed through such symbols. The concept of Bliss, Ecstasy and so forth, are in fact the only kinds of expressions we can truly give to these things but they are not of an Earthly kind, they are of the transcendent kind. Unity with God, is the good path."

( https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-reliability-of-christian-and-muslim-texts-compared.6196/post-231112 )

Thank you again.

Why are promises to Muslims so material/ earthly then? I have seen/ heard claims that Islam's Heaven consists of feasting and infinite amount of marital relations, but no meeting of Islam's Allah Himself.

Good night my time.