No regard...for the desire of women

[JoChris]

It's got nothing to do with Islam, the trinity doesn't make sense at all. Why is there no clear verse which will shut everyone up? There are Christians who don't believe in the trinity as well so don't make it an islamic problem...

Don't flatter yourself, denying the trinity isn't an essential part of Islam. You have a flawed understanding of God if you think he can be God but also man at the same time!

You just can't stop retreating from Islam's treatment of women, using the Trinity doctrine as distraction tactic can you?

It doesn't work on people who have caught onto your strategy.

… Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God… S. 4:171

… They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God… S. 5:73

“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).’ But there is no llaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them” [al-Maa’idah 5:73].

Narrated `Abdullah:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/87/17

A muslim who becomes a convert to biblical Christianity (Trinity is an essential doctrine) automatically becomes an apostate.

Haich, it is time you of all people stop using this tactic, please. It is unpleasant seeing people resorting to this strategy when you know they are capable of better.

 

[JoChris]

I did read your post. It’s a short video- and if you watch it you’ll either say “I hadn’t heard it with those points”, or “I still solidly believe it is a fable”... obviously, the choice is yours, and I’ll respect your decision if you still don’t want to give it a chance

Todd is an apostate from biblical Christianity. Muslims now love him thanks to his denial of the Trinity. That is a major sign that Christians should approach him online as they would to a non-Christian.
Don't waste your time with him unless you have plenty of time AND are well-armed against his many other distortions/ omissions of essential doctrines.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[DesertRose]

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
2:79

In regards to the Creator's final revelation to humanity, religious folk from any stripe can not tamper ot alter it.
Young Girl Corrects Dad's Quran Recitation

 

[Swiftturtle]

Todd is an apostate from biblical Christianity. Muslims now love him thanks to his denial of the Trinity. That is a major sign that Christians should approach him online as they would to a non-Christian.
Don't waste your time with him unless you have plenty of time AND are well-armed against his many other distortions/ omissions of essential doctrines.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I see where you’re coming from, and appreciate your advice. He mentioned earlier that he left Christianity. That’s why it’s up to him to watch that video or not, but I addressed it, and that’s about all I can/will do regarding that discussion.

I don’t agree with his views, but he and I don’t ‘have to’ agree, he has free will to think it’s ridiculous even when I think it’s obvious....But, I’ll answer him where I can. He may have turned from Christianity, but Jesus still loves him.

So, it might be considered silly on the surface (I get it ), and while I won’t do a big back and forth that just goes in a circle- esp bc he knows the scriptures, I’ll never write him off, or refuse to at least hear his opinion.

 

[Axl888]

One of my closest friends is Christain and she legit said to me that the bible tells her that Jesus created Adam...

I mean come in guys, you're stretching the truth there aren't you?!

Your friend told you the truth

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. - John 1:1-5

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

 

[Swiftturtle]

Your friend told you the truth

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. - John 1:1-5

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

I addressed this in a different post in an expanded way- but no, saying ‘Jesus’ created the universe ignores that Jesus, while there and a part of it (which is confirmed in scripture), Jesus sits to the right hand of The Father- meaning God the Father is greater. Jesus’ spirit is one with God, and became God in the flesh, but he is The Son. That’s like sitting in your Dad’s car with him while he drives; you’re a part of what is happening, but your Dad is in the driver’s seat. Saying ‘Jesus created the universe’ is like giving the passenger credit for getting the car between point A and B and leaving out the actual driver

Also, bc God didn’t send Jesus until the gospel, it’s incredibly confusing for anyone that doesn’t understand/believe in the Trinity.

 

[Axl888]

But it isn't enough, for you yes but there are many Christians who sin and take advantage of God's mercy. I think there's a line between mercy and wrath...you can't just say God loves us so much so he will forgive us all. There has to be accountability to serve justice to victims of the sin you do...

A Christian who has sinned (murder for example) and truly repented before his own death (physical) will indeed be saved from the second death and will have an eternal life, but even though he had already earned the salvation in the after life he still has to face earthly justice and receive his punishment according to the law of man (either by imprisonment or by death), God will not interfere with the law of man. Have you heard about the person crucified next to Jesus Christ who repented and died and went together with Jesus in paradise?

True Christians are actually not concerned about the physical death but the second death which is the eternal burning in the lake of fire. And even if a Christian is saved (earned the right to be in heaven), he is still judged or rewarded according to his deeds while he was on earth, the purer heart he/she has the greater reward he/she gets, one may have the least reward but at least he/she is not burning in the lake of fire...that is God's justice and it is fair.

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. - Rev. 22:12-15

 

[Axl888]

I addressed this in a different post in an expanded way- but no, saying ‘Jesus’ created the universe ignores that Jesus, while there and a part of it (which is confirmed in scripture), Jesus sits to the right hand of The Father- meaning God the Father is greater. Jesus’ spirit is one with God, and became God in the flesh, but he is The Son. That’s like sitting in your Dad’s car with him while he drives; you’re a part of what is happening, but your Dad is in the driver’s seat. Saying ‘Jesus created the universe’ is like giving the passenger credit for getting the car between point A and B and leaving out the actual driver

Also, bc God didn’t send Jesus until the gospel, it’s incredibly confusing for anyone that doesn’t understand/believe in the Trinity.

Indeed, it is confusing to those who lacks faith.

To me the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and Holy Spirit) is similar (but not the same) to the composition/nature of man, which is body, soul (consciousness, the mind, thoughts, feelings) and spirit (man's connection to God)...After all, God created man after Their own image (Genesis 1:26). And so in the context of creation, God the Father made His Will known and God the Son (The Word) made it happen, hence "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".

When God the Son (Jesus) was sent by the Father to earth, Jesus was born perfect (without any sin) but walked as ordinary man up until He was baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descended unto Him and on that instant He was made fully God (the Son) in the flesh, from then on He started preaching the Gospel doing miracles and wonders before men.

 

[Swiftturtle]

Indeed, it is confusing to those who lacks faith.

To me the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and Holy Spirit) is similar (but not the same) to the composition/nature of man, which is body, soul (consciousness, the mind, thoughts, feelings) and spirit (man's connection to God)...After all, God created man after Their own image (Genesis 1:26). And so in the context of creation, God the Father made His Will known and God the Son (The Word) made it happen, hence "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".

When God the Son (Jesus) was sent by the Father to earth, Jesus was born perfect (without any sin) but walked as ordinary man up until He was baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit descended unto Him and on that instant He was made fully God (the Son) in the flesh, from then on He started preaching the Gospel doing miracles and wonders before men.

I can see your POV, but
-the Bible is clear when it makes references to God vs Jesus, even tho we end up learning that they are one in the same, just different ‘facets’.
-Jesus Himself contradicts that He is responsible for creation by saying in Mark 10:6 "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female...”

The Bible talks about the Trinity, and quotes Jesus regarding Him being God in the flesh and “....I AM” in John, but it’s also very, very careful that it doesn’t make them interchangeable in context. You never read ‘when God died on the cross’ or ‘God’s resurrection’ bc their specific roles have different ‘rankings,’ if you will. Jesus even says that only The Father knows ‘the time and the hour’ of the end times. They are 3 in one, because they are all a part of God, but they also have different facets. However, the Bible is clear to differentiate where it’s necessary for a reason- and I’m not rewriting any part of the Bible. Jesus was there with God, we know, but God is the creator

 

[Orwell's mentor]

In a way, this thread is kinda reassuring. Even people who are technically part of the same religion can’t seem to agree on what they believe, but everyone is trying to reach some sort of understanding.

I think the word “understanding” is generous. It seems to always been like this on these boards when there are fundamentalists with access to the Internet. There are right-fighters that don’t see or accept any other way other than their own. It happens in nearly every thread in religion section. Why there’s no accepting that people worship differently is perplexing, with 7.5 billion people ‘n all, as people post infinity trying to convince others, at times with anger and judgement, that they’re better than someone else because of their religion. Regarding Christianity, the only time I’ve seen it ripped to shreds by its followers is on here.

When I have the time, I find it amusing to read because real life is nothing like this, thankfully.

 

[Todd]

He mentioned earlier that he left Christianity.

??

 

[Todd]

I think the word “understanding” is generous. It seems to always been like this on these boards when there are fundamentalists with access to the Internet. There are right-fighters that don’t see or accept any other way other than their own. It happens in nearly every thread in religion section. Why there’s no accepting that people worship differently is perplexing, with 7.5 billion people ‘n all, as people post infinity trying to convince others, at times with anger and judgement, that they’re better than someone else because of their religion. Regarding Christianity, the only time I’ve seen it ripped to shreds by its followers is on here.

When I have the time, I find it amusing to read because real life is nothing like this, thankfully.

I think many of the fundamentalists on this forum would be shocked if they realized how many Chrisitan's in their church don't really hold fast to the doctrines they think are crucial to salvation, including people in leadership or clergy positions. Most don't advertise or make a big deal about it because they don't want to create drama or division within their local congregation. They also realize if they admit they believe something controversial there positions of leadership could be in jeprody.

Beacuse I have been involved in leadership level in churches in quite a few different denominations/sects, I have seen first hand how many ministers disagree with certain doctrines and stances of their own denomination or sect. They simply believe God has placed them where they are at, and trust God that the doctrinal issues are not crucial or a matter of life and death. Since the majority of Christian churches in America are Trinitarian, I have no issue worshipping or fellowshipping at Trinitarian churches, though I don't believe in the doctrine at all.

The fact is, if they didn't know who I was, I could probably walk into any of the congregations of those on this forum who judge me as fallen or apostate, and within six months to a year be in a leadership position and they would likley have no issue with me, because they would recogize the fruit of the Spirit in my life and never know that I don't believe in Eternal torment or the Trinity.

They place way to much importance on doctrine than actual growth in character, Christ-likeness, or the fruit of the Spirit. Of course those things are hard to observe and discern through an internet forum, so doctrine becomes the only thing they can judge others on here.

 

[Lisa]

they would likley have no issue with me,

Probably because they believe the same as you from what you’ve said..

Of course those things are hard to observe and discern through an internet forum, so doctrine becomes the only thing they can judge others on here.

Figured you’d fool yourself into thinking that doctrine doesn’t matter.

 

[Todd]

Probably because they believe the same as you from what you’ve said..

As usual you missed the whole point of my post.

Figured you’d fool yourself into thinking that doctrine doesn’t matter.

I didn't say it didn't matter, only that it's not as important as many of you on this forum make it out to be.

A new convert to Christianity knows little to nothing at all about doctrine. Are you saying they can't really be saved or be in fellowship with God until they learn all the correct doctrine?

 

[Lisa]

As usual you missed the whole point of my post.

I don’t think I did.

I didn't say it didn't matter, only that it's not as important as many of you on this forum make it out to be.

Doctrine is very important, it’s being in the faith or not.

A new convert to Christianity knows little to nothing at all about doctrine.

Exactly! And so they are easily led astray by people like you, until God gets them back on track.

 

[Todd]

I don’t think I did.

My point was that I could walk into the local congregations of the people on this forum who disagree with me and they wouldn't have a problem with me, including you. So your comeback that they wouldn't have issue with me because they agree with me beliefs is not correct. Do you just assume everybody you fellowship with and like believes exactly as you do? Or do you quiz everybody and make sure they believe all the same doctrines the same way you do? Is doctrine the only criteria you use to establish who or who you don't fellowship with?

 

[Lisa]

My point was that I could walk into the local congregations of the people on this forum who disagree with me and they wouldn't have a problem with me, including you. So your comeback that they wouldn't have issue with me because they agree with me beliefs is not correct. Do you just assume everybody you fellowship with and like believes exactly as you do? Or do you quiz everybody and make sure they believe all the same doctrines the same way you do? Is doctrine the only criteria you use to establish who or who you don't fellowship with?

As soon as you started talking they might have an issue with you. First they would try to restore you but when that eventually fails, you probably wouldn’t be welcome there anymore.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

As usual you missed the whole point of my post.

I didn't say it didn't matter, only that it's not as important as many of you on this forum make it out to be.

A new convert to Christianity knows little to nothing at all about doctrine. Are you saying they can't really be saved or be in fellowship with God until they learn all the correct doctrine?

I don’t think any of us attain to doctrinal perfection @Todd - I think there is an element of this in Paul’s acknowledgement that we “see through a glass, darkly”. On the other hand, there are certain things which the Bible does seem to indicate are essential to faith, e.g. the creed 1 Corinthians 15, John 3:16 etc.

A while ago I got to thinking about my own experience of making changes to code on an old computer back in the 80’s...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/what-i-learned-about-the-gospel-from-hacking-code.5107/

 

[Todd]

As soon as you started talking they might have an issue with you. First they would try to restore you but when that eventually fails, you probably wouldn’t be welcome there anymore.

If I chose not to speak about the Trinity doctrine or Eternal Torment, the two issues that you all here use to label me as apsotate or fallen, they would never know.

The whole point I was making is that I know of many ministers who do not actually personally believe in Eternal Torment or the Trinity, yet they choose not to teach about it or even let their congregants know their personal beliefs for fear of the same reaction you all have here. Rob Bell and Carlton Pearson were prominent ministers who were forced out their positions when they publicy taught against the doctrine of Eternal Torment. For every minister who comes out and is publicly ridiculed and looses their position, there are probably 10 more that don't for fear of what will happen.

I no longer am in any leadership position in any instituionalized form of Christianity because I am not willing to hide or keep secret my beliefs. Just because I could do it, doesn't mean I am going to. I have not left Christianity or walked away from my faith, like Josh Harris has. I have simply not agreed to go against my own convictions and beliefs to retain some formal recognition of leadership from institutionalized religion. God still bring people across my path to minister to and lead to Christ, so I am still walking in the ministry that God has called me to. I just have no aspirations of making my living off it, which is actually what Jesus taught anyways.

 

[Todd]

I don’t think any of us attain to doctrinal perfection @Todd - I think there is an element of this in Paul’s acknowledgement that we “see through a glass, darkly”. On the other hand, there are certain things which the Bible does seem to indicate are essential to faith, e.g. the creed 1 Corinthians 15, John 3:16 etc.

A while ago I got to thinking about my own experience of making changes to code on an old computer back in the 80’s...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/what-i-learned-about-the-gospel-from-hacking-code.5107/

I totally agree with you and that is the point I am trying to make. Since Eternal Torment and the Trinity Doctrine are two of the more obscure doctrines and not explicitily taught in the scriptures , I contend they are not essential to faith. Hence the reason I do not reject any Christian who does continue to believe in ET or the Trinity.