A few questions open to all Christians on this forum

[Robin]

So I've been a lurker here for about a year now. The religious debates regarding Christianity alone is a joke. I have a few questions. How is anyone supposed to take a God seriously who couldn't clarify enough about pertinent issues like the requisite for salvation, the existance of hell, the role of non-Israelites, the validity of his word, etc. And aren't all of us "gentiles" merely allowed salvation because his own people rejected him? Why would you be happy knowing your salvation is only a result of a ploy to incite jealousy? I don't understand it. Also, why is it fair for all of humanity to be punished for the mistakes of the first two according to a literal interpretation of biblical cannon? Even if it is not meant to be a literal reading, why does sin and evil exist anyway if God really is all-powerful? Why allow so much suffering and pain and darkness? I used to be a Christian and grew up in a Christian household but the more I've tried looking further into these things the more frustrated I become. The endless divisions and squabbles over miniscule and significant issues is enough to nullify any legitimacy this religion has. Can anyone kindly offer some kind of response?

 

[Todd]

I can, but it won't make the Christians happy LOL!
The truth is that modern day Christianity is not even close to the religion or faith that the disciples of Jesus practiced in the first century. The 12 disciples in Jersulam were not even called Christians, they were called followers of the way. It was the followers of Paul (who never new Jesus in the flesh) who were first called Chrisitans.

Modern day Christianity is such a mess because the traditions of men, and institionalized religion that has been manipulated for worldly political aspirations, have so corrupted the message of the gospel that the original twelve apsotles of Jesus would likely not recognize it all if they were here today.

Most of the doctrines that Christian's squabble about would have no relevance to the believers of the first century. Once saved always saved, Calvinism, pre-desitination, the Trinity doctrine, faith versus works are all born out of false presuppositions. I mean really there is a thread on this forum of Christians even arguing about whether Jesus burned in hell before he was resurrected. What relevance does that even have to walking a Godly life of faith in the here and now?

For example once saved always saved, predestination and Calvinism become largely irrelevant if one rejects the presupposition that the punishment for sin is eternal torment. Christian's are too consumed with who is or not going to make it to heaven that for the most part they completely fail to actually live in the here and now, what Jesus actually taught.

At one time I had serious doubts about the validity of Saint Paul and his writings. I no longer outright reject Paul and his writings, but I have chosen to place the words of Jesus above those of Paul. The reality is that most Christian Churches largely ignore the words of Jesus (at least when it comes to teachings that have practical application to daily life) and emphasis the words of Paul.

I certainly empathize with your frustration of Christianity. But I implore you to not be dissuaded by the folly of religious men and oraginzed religion from searching after the true God of the Bible and his anointed messiah, the man Jesus Christ. Institutionalized Christiantiy is not the only viable expression of faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

So I've been a lurker here for about a year now. The religious debates regarding Christianity alone is a joke. I have a few questions. How is anyone supposed to take a God seriously who couldn't clarify enough about pertinent issues like the requisite for salvation, the existance of hell, the role of non-Israelites, the validity of his word, etc. And aren't all of us "gentiles" merely allowed salvation because his own people rejected him? Why would you be happy knowing your salvation is only a result of a ploy to incite jealousy? I don't understand it. Also, why is it fair for all of humanity to be punished for the mistakes of the first two according to a literal interpretation of biblical cannon? Even if it is not meant to be a literal reading, why does sin and evil exist anyway if God really is all-powerful? Why allow so much suffering and pain and darkness? I used to be a Christian and grew up in a Christian household but the more I've tried looking further into these things the more frustrated I become. The endless divisions and squabbles over miniscule and significant issues is enough to nullify any legitimacy this religion has. Can anyone kindly offer some kind of response?

You have been listening to the religious who won the god war against a better god than what Christianity thought up as compared to the older and better version of Yahweh.

They say of us Gnostics that we read the bible white while the Christians read it white. Christians end with a good genocidal god while we end with an evil genocidal god.

The Jews did not have a genocidal god at all.

If you want to read Yahweh the right way, do it as a Gnostic, for the right morals and if you want to read it like a Christian, then I would say to reverse much of what you read. Christians read funny and reversed much of what Yahweh and the bible is supposed to mean and be.

For instance, Christians name Eden as where man fell. Original Sin. Jews name Eden as where man was elevated. Original Virtue.

The Jews know how to read their myths. Christians don't. Gnostic Christians read it the best, as we follow the leaders of the Torah, the Karaite Jews.

They are not literalists and put man above the evil genocidal Christian god.

It is the moral thing to do.

Regards
DL

 

[Lisa]

And aren't all of us "gentiles" merely allowed salvation because his own people rejected him? Why would you be happy knowing your salvation is only a result of a ploy to incite jealousy?

Hi Robin
Yes we are included in salvation because God’s chosen people rejected Him and Paul does say that He did it to make His people jealous. And I guess I see it as He loves His people and they kept leaving Him for other idols and gods. So He decided to let them know what it feels like to love someone who left you for someone else. God isn’t through with His people though and has every intention of them coming back to Him.

As for the part of why should I be happy that I’m in because they are out...at least I was saved. Im thankful that I was offered salvation and thankful to know God and walk with Him...He’s a huge blessing in my life that I can’t live without Him.

Also, why is it fair for all of humanity to be punished for the mistakes of the first two according to a literal interpretation of biblical cannon?

I have often wondered that myself and the answer is..if you can live perfectly before God..go for it. The Israelites couldn’t and they had God right there with them. And you won’t be able to either.

Even if it is not meant to be a literal reading, why does sin and evil exist anyway if God really is all-powerful?

Because even though God created everything, He created us with free will which means that we can choose to follow God or not. Since the garden of eden we know good and evil and we can choose to do good and evil. Sounds like the angels got the same deal with free will and they can either be for God who is good or for satan who is evil. This doesn’t make God less powerful.

The endless divisions and squabbles over miniscule and significant issues is enough to nullify any legitimacy this religion has. Can anyone kindly offer some kind of response?

Ya there is a lot of squabbling going around...not just here and I would think that’s because of the deception that is in the world. Satan is trying really hard to make it so no one is saved and all be thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And the whole world is up against lies of every kind trying to keep the one truth away from people so they can be saved. The church is also part of that with different theologies that come up against the one way to God or once saved always saved or the pre trib rapture to name a few squabbles. The church is not immune because satan would also like for Christians to fall as well.

Hope this helped you.

 

[Robin]

I can, but it won't make the Christians happy LOL!
The truth is that modern day Christianity is not even close to the religion or faith that the disciples of Jesus practiced in the first century. The 12 disciples in Jersulam were not even called Christians, they were called followers of the way. It was the followers of Paul (who never new Jesus in the flesh) who were first called Chrisitans.

Modern day Christianity is such a mess because the traditions of men, and institionalized religion that has been manipulated for worldly political aspirations, have so corrupted the message of the gospel that the original twelve apsotles of Jesus would likely not recognize it all if they were here today.

Most of the doctrines that Christian's squabble about would have no relevance to the believers of the first century. Once saved always saved, Calvinism, pre-desitination, the Trinity doctrine, faith versus works are all born out of false presuppositions. I mean really there is a thread on this forum of Christians even arguing about whether Jesus burned in hell before he was resurrected. What relevance does that even have to walking a Godly life of faith in the here and now?

For example once saved always saved, predestination and Calvinism become largely irrelevant if one rejects the presupposition that the punishment for sin is eternal torment. Christian's are too consumed with who is or not going to make it to heaven that for the most part they completely fail to actually live in the here and now, what Jesus actually taught.

At one time I had serious doubts about the validity of Saint Paul and his writings. I no longer outright reject Paul and his writings, but I have chosen to place the words of Jesus above those of Paul. The reality is that most Christian Churches largely ignore the words of Jesus (at least when it comes to teachings that have practical application to daily life) and emphasis the words of Paul.

I certainly empathize with your frustration of Christianity. But I implore you to not be dissuaded by the folly of religious men and oraginzed religion from searching after the true God of the Bible and his anointed messiah, the man Jesus Christ. Institutionalized Christiantiy is not the only viable expression of faith in Jesus Christ.

See I've heard about this and began looking into what the followers of Jesus originally followed but I'm stumped on sources. I guess there is just so much noise that giving it up altogether seems the easier option. I don't understand why if God really is all-powerful that he would allow the truth to be buried by man-made constructs based on misinterpretations and agenda-driven dogmatics. It makes no sense that such was allowed in the first place.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

See I've heard about this and began looking into what the followers of Jesus originally followed but I'm stumped on sources. I guess there is just so much noise that giving it up altogether seems the easier option. I don't understand why if God really is all-powerful that he would allow the truth to be buried by man-made constructs based on misinterpretations and agenda-driven dogmatics. It makes no sense that such was allowed in the first place.

This lady has an excellent boob called the History of God. This is not an excerpt but the whole book shows how the Jews were more esoteric and did not believe in a literal god. No one did in those days.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL

 

[Robin]

Hi Lisa.

As for the part of why should I be happy that I’m in because they are out...at least I was saved. Im thankful that I was offered salvation and thankful to know God and walk with Him...He’s a huge blessing in my life that I can’t live without Him.

But why should we be happy that god deigned to give us salvation as though we're a consolation prize? Were the Jews not to reject him . . . Would the rest of us have been passed over by virtue of being born into the wrong race/ethnic group (which is something out of our control anyway)? How is that fair? If he is real and he is the creator of all things then he designated our bloodline. Why make entire races of other people you have no intention of saving except by fluke of jealousy? That's cruel.

I have often wondered that myself and the answer is..if you can live perfectly before God..go for it. The Israelites couldn’t and they had God right there with them. And you won’t be able to either.

From my limited understanding is the "fallen nature" of man not attributed to the original sin? Surely if that were not inherently apart of our nature we would have the choice to accept or reject knowledge of good and evil meaning, if we were not fallen, we could have been perfect. It was never our choice to be born in sin. We never stood a chance.

Because even though God created everything, He created us with free will which means that we can choose to follow God or not. Since the garden of eden we know good and evil and we can choose to do good and evil. Sounds like the angels got the same deal with free will and they can either be for God who is good or for satan who is evil. This doesn’t make God less powerful.

But that's the thing . . . None of us were there at Eden. We didn't make the choice yet we bear the brunt of the consequences of being born into a nature and world sullied by that choice. Adam and Eve's choice ruined humankind for posterity.

Ya there is a lot of squabbling going around...not just here and I would think that’s because of the deception that is in the world. Satan is trying really hard to make it so no one is saved and all be thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And the whole world is up against lies of every kind trying to keep the one truth away from people so they can be saved. The church is also part of that with different theologies that come up against the one way to God or once saved always saved or the pre trib rapture to name a few squabbles. The church is not immune because satan would also like for Christians to fall as well.

I just don't see why God could not have made his truth clear especially to those dying without it.

 

[Todd]

@Robin It only makes sense when your view of this temporal world is in line with God's purpose. God desires for us to submit to him as only he knows what is best for us. The rebellion in heaven started because Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call him, believed he could do things as well or better than God. He convinced 1/3 of the angels that he was right. Instead of God just destroying those in rebellion, thereby creating the possibility of more doubts in the angels who did not rebel, He created the earth and the human inhabitants of the earth to demonstrate that only he is good and worthy to be in control. Unfortunatley we (humanity) have turned it into a negative example of what happens when anybody other than God is in control. Depending on if you believe Adam and Eve were real or just an allegory, you could argue they made the decision whether the example was going to be a positive or negative one.

Either way by design God is allowing us to experience teh absence of God ruling and reigning in this temporal finite lifetime, so that once we are all reconciled to him, we will never again doubt his worthiness or ability to be in control.

For this object lesson to be as effective as possible, God has chosen to leave us to our own devices for the time being. But he has provided a way for us to experience his love, mercy, goodness and kindess even now through his son Jesus Christ. When certain individuals fully trust and submit to him, he will and does intervene in this evil world.

Because we see God dimly in this temporary reaml, for the most part even the most devout and faithful servants of God struggle to fully let go of control and our own will and submit completely to God and completely trust him. To whateve degree we submit and trust to him is the degree we see him intervene and bless us. Jesus was the perfect example of human being fully submitted to God and his will. Yet even he experienced the worst human suffering and crucifixion on a cross, knowing that in the end God would raise him up and glorify him.

God is currently taking a hands off approach unless we submit 100% to him. Because of this the corruption and the self will of manthe the full truth of God's glory and power has been kept hidden and perverted in this temporal age. The good news is that Jesus, the perfectly submitted man, will return and establish God's full kingdom and reign, so all the world will see what happens when God is fully in control.

In the scope of eternity, this lifetime will be but a distant memory that will keep us from ever doubting God again.

 

[Lisa]

But why should we be happy that god deigned to give us salvation as though we're a consolation prize? Were the Jews not to reject him . . . Would the rest of us had been passed over by virtue of being born into the wrong race/ethnic group (which is something out of our control anyway)? How is that fair? If he is real and he is the creator of all things then he designated our bloodline. Why make entire races of other people you have no intention of saving except by fluke of jealousy? That's cruel.

I don’t know that it wasn’t His intention all along as Jesus tells us that God loved the world so He gave His only begotten Son. But He was also wanting to make it so His people noticed and I believe they did.

From my limited understanding is the "fallen nature" of man not attributed to the original sin? Surely if that were not inherently apart of our nature we would have the choice to accept or reject knowledge of good and evil meaning, if we were not fallen, we could have been perfect. It was never our choice to be born in sin. We never stood a chance.

They didn’t have to eat from that tree..there were other trees.

But that's the thing . . . None of us were there at Eden. We didn't make the choice yet we bear the runt of the consequences being born into a nature and world sullied by a choice we never made. Adam and Eve's choice ruined humankind for posterity.

No we weren’t there and their decision did affect us too. Like I said, we can try to live perfectly before God, you would have to to the letter though.

I just don't see why God could not have made his truth clear especially to those dying without it.

What do you think He could do to make it clearer? There are people that tell people the truth about sin and what people can do to be saved, sometimes they are believed and sometimes they aren’t. Jesus came and did miracles and He was sometimes believed and He was sometimes not. God did mighty miracles for the Israelites when He delivered them from slavery in Egypt, but the moment Moses went up the mountain to talk to God they made that golden calf. What do you think God should do?

 

[Robin]

@Robin It only makes sense when your view of this temporal world is in line with God's purpose. God desires for us to submit to him as only he knows what is best for us. The rebellion in heaven started because Satan/Lucifer/whatever you want to call him, believed he could do things as well or better than God. He convinced 1/3 of the angels that he was right. Instead of God just destroying those in rebellion, thereby creating the possibility of more doubts in the angels who did not rebel, He created the earth and the human inhabitants of the earth to demonstrate that only he is good and worthy to be in control. Unfortunatley we (humanity) have turned it into a negative example of what happens when anybody other than God is in control. Depending on if you believe Adam and Eve were real or just an allegory, you could argue they made the decision whether the example was going to be a positive or negative one.

Either way by design God is allowing us to experience teh absence of God ruling and reigning in this temporal finite lifetime, so that once we are all reconciled to him, we will never again doubt his worthiness or ability to be in control.

For this object lesson to be as effective as possible, God has chosen to leave us to our own devices for the time being. But he has provided a way for us to experience his love, mercy, goodness and kindess even now through his son Jesus Christ. When certain individuals fully trust and submit to him, he will and does intervene in this evil world.

Because we see God dimly in this temporary reaml, for the most part even the most devout and faithful servants of God struggle to fully let go of control and our own will and submit completely to God and completely trust him. To whateve degree we submit and trust to him is the degree we see him intervene and bless us. Jesus was the perfect example of human being fully submitted to God and his will. Yet even he experienced the worst human suffering and crucifixion on a cross, knowing that in the end God would raise him up and glorify him.

God is currently taking a hands off approach unless we submit 100% to him. Because of this the corruption and the self will of manthe the full truth of God's glory and power has been kept hidden and perverted in this temporal age. The good news is that Jesus, the perfectly submitted man, will return and establish God's full kingdom and reign, so all the world will see what happens when God is fully in control.

In the scope of eternity, this lifetime will be but a distant memory that will keep us from ever doubting God again.

What do you mean by when we're ALL reconciled to him?

That makes sense. But it doesn't change the fact that there are so many people who are suffering just to ultimately prove a point. Even if there is a plane of existence that transcends this one, even if there is an eternity after . . . It doesn't change what people feel here and now, especially those (which would be the vast majority) who don't live with any sort of hope for anything past this. I don't know maybe I sound like an abandoned child wondering why daddy doesn't love them but that's what it feels like sometimes, when I entertain the idea that he might be real. It's difficult if you've been through situations that leave you wondering what goodness there'd be in a god who had the power to prevent them from happening but chose not to. And the only advice I get tends to rest in fear of hellfire so "shut up and believe". I've begged for some kind of sign or confirmation just ANYTHING. It's just felt like a one-sided conversation. I don't know. I'm rambling.

 

[Robin]

They didn’t have to eat from that tree..there were other trees.

My point isn't that they chose wrong, its that their poor decision affected every successive generation that didn't get the option to choose at all.

No we weren’t there and their decision did affect us too. Like I said, we can try to live perfectly before God, you would have to to the letter though.

We might have been able to do that if their decision didn't affect all of us for no apparent reason.

What do you think He could do to make it clearer? There are people that tell people the truth about sin and what people can do to be saved, sometimes they are believed and sometimes they aren’t. Jesus came and did miracles and He was sometimes believed and He was sometimes not. God did mighty miracles for the Israelites when He delivered them from slavery in Egypt, but the moment Moses went up the mountain to talk to God they made that golden calf. What do you think God should do?

I don't know . . . Maybe allow for a unified voice that represents him? Have people who are supposed to be genuine believers bear the same consistent message? That would be a start

 

[Lisa]

My point isn't that they chose wrong, its that their poor decision affected every successive generation that didn't get the option to choose at all.

You can choose..you can choose right now to completely follow God and live perfect before Him.

We might have been able to do that if their decision didn't affect all of us for no apparent reason.

I kinda doubt it myself. I think Adam and Eve is all of us, no one could have done better.

I don't know . . . Maybe allow for a unified voice that represents him? Have people who are supposed to be genuine believers bear the same consistent message? That would be a start

I think that genuine believers have a consistent message in the Good News, its unfortunate that other voices want to muddy it. I also think that people don't want God, scripture bears that out too..Paul tells us no one seeks God so its already a tough sell.

 

[Todd]

What do you mean by when we're ALL reconciled to him?

That makes sense. But it doesn't change the fact that there are so many people who are suffering just to ultimately prove a point. Even if there is a plane of existence that transcends this one, even if there is an eternity after . . . It doesn't change what people feel here and now, especially those (which would be the vast majority) who don't live with any sort of hope for anything past this. I don't know maybe I sound like an abandoned child wondering why daddy doesn't love them but that's what it feels like sometimes, when I entertain the idea that he might be real. It's difficult if you've been through situations that leave you wondering what goodness there'd be in a god who had the power to prevent them from happening but chose not to. And the only advice I get tends to rest in fear of hellfire so "shut up and believe". I've begged for some kind of sign or confirmation just ANYTHING. It's just felt like a one-sided conversation. I don't know. I'm rambling.

@Robin, your feelings are real and understandable. Feel free to ramble at me as long as you need to.

Though it is not a popular or well known teaching in the modern day church there is a legacy of belief throughout the history of the Christian Church in the doctrine of Apokatastasis. Apokatastasis is the doctrine that God will eventually reconcile all of humanity to himself. It is the opposite of the doctrine of eternal damnation that says unbelievers will suffer for eternity in hell.

Apokastasis or Univerisal Reconcilliation says that the lake of fire is to purify unbelievers in the ages to come, so all of humanity comes to saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ. Those who believe in this lifetime experience the purification and sanctification of God in this lifetime, so we do not have a place in the Lake of Fire. All unbelievers will receive restorative and corrective punishement commensurate to the life they lived here on earth. God is just and all sin will be accounted for, but ultimately God's mercy will reign and Jesus will draw all men to himself.

The truly innocent and those who suffered greatly at the hands of other people, if they did not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ in this lifetime, will receive mercy and corrective and restorative punishment only to the degree needed for them to see and accept the love of God.

I believe that for many of the meek, humble, poor, abused and trodden people, it will not take much for that to happen. But that is only my personal speculation and not something I can prove by the word of God.

It is hard to accpet that many people are suffering to make a point. But they suffering at the hands of other people, not at the hands of God. God will wipe away every tear in the ages to come though! That is part of the good news of the gospel. If you can accept it and place your trust in God and the work that Jesus Christ did on the cross for you, you can begin to see glimpses of God's love and mercy in the here and now and not have to wait until the age of the ages to see it.

God bless!

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

He gave His only begotten Son.

He has as many of those as he wants and needs given his incompetent waste.

Regards
DL

 

[JoChris]

So I've been a lurker here for about a year now. The religious debates regarding Christianity alone is a joke. I have a few questions. How is anyone supposed to take a God seriously who couldn't clarify enough about pertinent issues like the requisite for salvation, the existance of hell, the role of non-Israelites, the validity of his word, etc. And aren't all of us "gentiles" merely allowed salvation because his own people rejected him? Why would you be happy knowing your salvation is only a result of a ploy to incite jealousy? I don't understand it. Also, why is it fair for all of humanity to be punished for the mistakes of the first two according to a literal interpretation of biblical cannon? Even if it is not meant to be a literal reading, why does sin and evil exist anyway if God really is all-powerful? Why allow so much suffering and pain and darkness? I used to be a Christian and grew up in a Christian household but the more I've tried looking further into these things the more frustrated I become. The endless divisions and squabbles over miniscule and significant issues is enough to nullify any legitimacy this religion has. Can anyone kindly offer some kind of response?

If you want good answers to those questions this is the last place you should be asking them. There are many Christian apologetics websites which address those issues.

https://www.gotquestions.org/
https://www.bethinking.org/
http://carm.org/
http://tektonics.org/
https://oneminuteapologist.com/

There are a huge amount of Christian apologists on YouTube for those who WANT to find them as well.
A good young apologist here.

 

[Vytas]

Punished to live a life ? That's just terrible. Poor you...
As for salvation for gentiles, God knows the future, salvation for us was never in question. Some may disagree but for me is obvious. Read how Abraham plead God about ( was it sodoma? )

 

[DavidSon]

I can, but it won't make the Christians happy LOL!
The truth is that modern day Christianity is not even close to the religion or faith that the disciples of Jesus practiced in the first century. The 12 disciples in Jersulam were not even called Christians, they were called followers of the way. It was the followers of Paul (who never new Jesus in the flesh) who were first called Chrisitans.

Modern day Christianity is such a mess because the traditions of men, and institionalized religion that has been manipulated for worldly political aspirations, have so corrupted the message of the gospel that the original twelve apsotles of Jesus would likely not recognize it all if they were here today.

Most of the doctrines that Christian's squabble about would have no relevance to the believers of the first century. Once saved always saved, Calvinism, pre-desitination, the Trinity doctrine, faith versus works are all born out of false presuppositions. I mean really there is a thread on this forum of Christians even arguing about whether Jesus burned in hell before he was resurrected. What relevance does that even have to walking a Godly life of faith in the here and now?

For example once saved always saved, predestination and Calvinism become largely irrelevant if one rejects the presupposition that the punishment for sin is eternal torment. Christian's are too consumed with who is or not going to make it to heaven that for the most part they completely fail to actually live in the here and now, what Jesus actually taught.

At one time I had serious doubts about the validity of Saint Paul and his writings. I no longer outright reject Paul and his writings, but I have chosen to place the words of Jesus above those of Paul. The reality is that most Christian Churches largely ignore the words of Jesus (at least when it comes to teachings that have practical application to daily life) and emphasis the words of Paul.

I certainly empathize with your frustration of Christianity. But I implore you to not be dissuaded by the folly of religious men and oraginzed religion from searching after the true God of the Bible and his anointed messiah, the man Jesus Christ. Institutionalized Christiantiy is not the only viable expression of faith in Jesus Christ.

This is complete truth, well said.

If we separate Jesus the man from the multitude of theories and imaginations piled upon the reality of his message... they're two very different entities. He was pointing us to God.

A connection with what we call the Almighty is inborn. How could a person not feel awe, reverence, joy at the experience of being alive and part of the All? There is a divine, powerful intelligence and if you don't feel it, maybe look at the barriers disrupting our consciousness.

Jesus was one voice exulting the Creator, describing the Law which is written in our hearts and minds. Instead of theology/philosophy we need to pass on traditions that cultivate honesty, compassion, and authentic freedom. Be the religion OF Jesus, not about Him.

 

[Robin]

@Robin, your feelings are real and understandable. Feel free to ramble at me as long as you need to.

Though it is not a popular or well known teaching in the modern day church there is a legacy of belief throughout the history of the Christian Church in the doctrine of Apokatastasis. Apokatastasis is the doctrine that God will eventually reconcile all of humanity to himself. It is the opposite of the doctrine of eternal damnation that says unbelievers will suffer for eternity in hell.

Apokastasis or Univerisal Reconcilliation says that the lake of fire is to purify unbelievers in the ages to come, so all of humanity comes to saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ. Those who believe in this lifetime experience the purification and sanctification of God in this lifetime, so we do not have a place in the Lake of Fire. All unbelievers will receive restorative and corrective punishement commensurate to the life they lived here on earth. God is just and all sin will be accounted for, but ultimately God's mercy will reign and Jesus will draw all men to himself.

The truly innocent and those who suffered greatly at the hands of other people, if they did not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ in this lifetime, will receive mercy and corrective and restorative punishment only to the degree needed for them to see and accept the love of God.

I believe that for many of the meek, humble, poor, abused and trodden people, it will not take much for that to happen. But that is only my personal speculation and not something I can prove by the word of God.

It is hard to accpet that many people are suffering to make a point. But they suffering at the hands of other people, not at the hands of God. God will wipe away every tear in the ages to come though! That is part of the good news of the gospel. If you can accept it and place your trust in God and the work that Jesus Christ did on the cross for you, you can begin to see glimpses of God's love and mercy in the here and now and not have to wait until the age of the ages to see it.

God bless!

I've never heard about this . . . Do you have sources I could look up please? I've wondered about this . . . This, at least to me, kind of explains away the cruel injustice of creating people predestined for eternal torture. Does this mean reincarnation? Also . . . Thank you.

 

[Robin]

If you want good answers to those questions this is the last place you should be asking them. There are many Christian apologetics websites which address those issues.

https://www.gotquestions.org/
https://www.bethinking.org/
http://carm.org/
http://tektonics.org/
https://oneminuteapologist.com/

There are a huge amount of Christian apologists on YouTube for those who WANT to find them as well.
A good young apologist here.

I'm asking them here because I assumed posters would be aware of misinformation and deliberate distortion. There are also a few people here who hold entirely different views but seem very well-studied and researched that make me question the concepts of organized Christianity. Thank you for responding though.

 

[Robin]

Punished to live a life ? That's just terrible. Poor you...
As for salvation for gentiles, God knows the future, salvation for us was never in question. Some may disagree but for me is obvious. Read how Abraham plead God about ( was it sodoma? )

I sense sarcasm. Depending on that life, yes, it can be a punishment. If God really does know the future why place temptation in the garden in the first place, thus inviting sin into the world (which was apparently inevitable?)