Once Saved Always Saved?

[Vytas]

You really believe when the mask of this temporal world is gone and people really see God for who he is, that anyone will not want to be healed and redeemed? Sure many will still resist initially and it may take a long time for them to finally yield. But don't many of us who received salvation in this lifetime have a similar experience. We felt the tug of God in our spirit and initially we were resistant and did not want to yield. But the draw of God was too much and eventually we yielded. The bible says God is long suffering and the parable of the lost sheep demostrates God's tenacity for reaching everyone. Who knows how long it will take for the hardest most reprobate of sinners to finally break. But God has all the time in the world and then some.

There has to be better explanation than "torture them until they break" ,sounds almost comical...

Is your view of God that small? Did anyone who accepts salvation in this lifetime really make the choice on their own or was it really God that choose us? Do you take credit for actually seeking and choosing God?

There were one person praying for me 24/7 year after year when i was lost, i give credit to that person...She got from God what she was asking for. So to answer your question in my personal case neither...

I'm curious why all of humanity being redeemed would piss your off? Do you think it wouldn't be fair? Because the reality is none of us deserve God. God choosing you to experience salvation in this lifetime while others do not, is really what is not fair.

Because inherently evil people exist, 100 % evil, who think and do only evil. Also people exist who know all the truth about God has pretty good understanding of situation we are in, and still reject him and hate him.

I have never stated that God will not excute justice. UR does not negate the idea of punishment and sorrow for unrepentant sin. UR simply claims that God's wrath and anger will come to an end when justice is served but his love and mercy will endure forever.

I think your view of the ages to come is rather black and white, when you say "we all end up in the same barrel". Their are clearly rewards and blessings for the righteous. Just because I claim that all will be redeemed and restored to God eventually doesn't mean there won't be blessing and rewards for those who believed and were righteous in this lifetime, that not everyone will receive.

So evil eventually will be doing fine and good will be doing even better ? Cute...

 

[justjess]

There has to be better explanation than "torture them until they break" ,sounds almost comical...



There were one person praying for me 24/7 year after year when i was lost, i give credit to that person...She got from God what she was asking for. So to answer your question in my personal case neither...



Because inherently evil people exist, 100 % evil, who think and do only evil. Also people exist who know all the truth about God has pretty good understanding of situation we are in, and still reject him and hate him.



So evil eventually will be doing fine and good will be doing even better ? Cute...

You think god can’t cure evil? You underestimate him...

 

[Vytas]

He would be pissed off because he put all this “effort and time” into pleasing and fearing god while other lazy bums just did what they wanted and got the same reward as him. It’s the same exact mindset behind denying people things which should be basic human rights - a home, medical care, food - because they don’t work or don’t work “hard enough”

It’s a natural human impulse. In groups and out groups, hierarchies etc. But god isn’t human. He is above those petty human traits.

Wrong guess...Simply because it's wrong. There are people who hurt people all their lives, people who are evil to the core. Like in real life even those who disagree with capital punishment, in some cases remain silent in some cases it seems best decision. Nothing changes in grand picture...

 

[Vytas]

You think god can’t cure evil? You underestimate him...

He can but he won't. We are free to chose and He never would take that choice from us

 

[justjess]

He can but he won't. We are free to chose and He never would take that choice from us

You underestimate god due to your own human impulses and inclinations. In the end you will see.

Have a good day.

 

[Vytas]

You underestimate god due to your own human impulses and inclinations. In the end you will see.

Have a good day.

Free will is a fact. good day to you too Jess

 

[Todd]

He can but he won't. We are free to chose and He never would take that choice from us

He is Sadistic then if he can and won't. That goes against scripture where God says he desires all men to be saved. There is no qualifier in that verst that says he desires all men, except those who are completely evil.

And who are you to judge that anybody is 100% evil to the core? You have no idea what situations and circumstances brought those type of people to become what they are. We all have reason's to justify (no rightly) or at least explain how we got the the point we did the evil things we have done. Your lack of compassion for the condition of the human soul in this evil world we live in, is quite shocking for someone claiming to be a Christian.

 

[Todd]

There were one person praying for me 24/7 year after year when i was lost, i give credit to that person...She got from God what she was asking for. So to answer your question in my personal case neither...

So you think the love and compassion this person had for you is greater than the love and compassion God has for everyone of his children? Wow, I'd really like to meet this person.

Because inherently evil people exist, 100 % evil, who think and do only evil. Also people exist who know all the truth about God has pretty good understanding of situation we are in, and still reject him and hate him.

No one knows all the truth about God. If they did they surely would not reject him.

So evil eventually will be doing fine and good will be doing even better ? Cute...

Yeah I'll take cute over sadistic and tragic any day!
Other than heavy religious indoctrination, I'm curious what could be the strong revulsion to the idea that God is capable and willing to redeem all of his creation, no matter how evil?

 

[Todd]

He can but he won't. We are free to chose and He never would take that choice from us

Do you have scriptural basis for that assumption?
Did God not harden the heart of Pharoh for his purposes? If God could change Pharoah heart against the Israelites, could he surely change a heart towards himself? He obviously doesn't hold himself to some rule about changing hearts.

Malachi 4:6 is another example of God changing someone's heart.

Even your own testimony of God changing your heart because another human had a strong desire and will for it to happen says God can influence our choices, doesn't it? So God will use his power to change a heart based on a human beings desire but not his own?

 

[Vytas]

Do you have scriptural basis for that assumption?

Oh so now you wan't scriptures ? Why not before ? I left bible out of it as to make hypothetical conversation possible which was based on our assumptions off course. If bible is in you are done...Do you have scriptural basis for God violating our free will ? Or everyone ending up in heaven other than few out of context verses ?

 

[Todd]

Oh so now you wan't scriptures ? Why not before ? I left bible out of it as to make hypothetical conversation possible which was based on our assumptions off course. If bible is in you are done...Do you have scriptural basis for God violating our free will ? Or everyone ending up in heaven other than few out of context verses ?

I've made my biblical case many times on this forum. But when others can't prove wrong with scriptue it turns to what they believe seem like rational arguments, but they quickly erode as valid reasons also. Eventually It ends up in people resorting to attacking my spiritual standing with God and saying I'm fallen or lost, rather than a definitive biblical argument to prove me wrong.

And yes I just cited some biblical examples of God "violating" free will. Free will is a human construct and doesn't have a solid biblical foundation either.

Want some more...
Romans 9:21
Isaiah 64:8
Exodus 4:11
Jeremiah 1:4
Lamentations 3:37
Proverbs 21:1
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 19:21
Jeremiah 10:23
Romans 9:19

Isn't God answering your friends prayer an example of God violating your free will? You said yourself you couldn't take credit for "choosing" God.
No one would be saved, if God never violated our free will.

 

[Vytas]

He is Sadistic then if he can and won't. That goes against scripture where God says he desires all men to be saved. There is no qualifier in that verst that says he desires all men, except those who are completely evil.

And who are you to judge that anybody is 100% evil to the core? You have no idea what situations and circumstances brought those type of people to become what they are. We all have reason's to justify (no rightly) or at least explain how we got the the point we did the evil things we have done. Your lack of compassion for the condition of the human soul in this evil world we live in, is quite shocking for someone claiming to be a Christian.

There are examples in bible of people evil to the core, it's not like they didn't exist anymore, world certainly did not become a better place since then ? And why i can't judge ? Do i have to pretend im blind ? I will be judged as i judge myself and im not afraid in the slightest...it's not about my compassion it's not personal...Could you stop trashing my character for one post at least ? Quite refreshing change that would be...A man can hope...

 

[Vytas]

So you think the love and compassion this person had for you is greater than the love and compassion God has for everyone of his children? Wow, I'd really like to meet this person.
No one knows all the truth about God. If they did they surely would not reject him.
Yeah I'll take cute over sadistic and tragic any day!
Other than heavy religious indoctrination, I'm curious what could be the strong revulsion to the idea that God is capable and willing to redeem all of his creation, no matter how evil?

God already did all he had to do, he gave us salvation now it's our time to act...If we don't he will force us right ?

 

[Todd]

There are examples in bible of people evil to the core, it's not like they didn't exist anymore, world certainly did not become a better place since then ? And why i can't judge ? Do i have to pretend im blind ? I will be judged as i judge myself and im not afraid in the slightest...it's not about my compassion it's not personal...Could you stop trashing my character for one post at least ? Quite refreshing change that would be...A man can hope...

Please forgive me, I have obviously pushed some buttons and offended you. I will glady refrain from making any remarks that would question your character if you would like to continue this discussion in a respecful and civil manner.

 

[Todd]

God already did all he had to do, he gave us salvation now it's our time to act...If we don't he will force us right ?

Eventually YES!
Why is that a bad thing?

 

[Vytas]

I've made my biblical case many times on this forum. But when others can't prove wrong with scriptue it turns to what they believe seem like rational arguments, but they quickly erode as valid reasons also. Eventually It ends up in people resorting to attacking my spiritual standing with God and saying I'm fallen or lost, rather than a definitive biblical argument to prove me wrong.

And yes I just cited some biblical examples of God "violating" free will. Free will is a human construct and doesn't have a solid biblical foundation either.

Want some more...
Romans 9:21
Isaiah 64:8
Exodus 4:11
Jeremiah 1:4
Lamentations 3:37
Proverbs 21:1
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 19:21
Jeremiah 10:23
Romans 9:19

Isn't God answering your friends prayer an example of God violating your free will? You said yourself you couldn't take credit for "choosing" God.
No one would be saved, if God never violated our free will.

I couldn't take credit for opportunity, but i still had to make a conscious decision.
Please don't talk to me about people attacking you . Do you ever write a post without mentioning how bad /wrong etc etc other christians are.
I will check verses in a moment..

 

[Vytas]

Eventually YES!
Why is that a bad thing?

Because there is no difference between right and wrong. Do as thou wilt...Thats what you are preaching..It's all good God will sort it out...

 

[Vytas]

Please forgive me, I have obviously pushed some buttons and offended you. I will glady refrain from making any remarks that would question your character if you would like to continue this discussion in a respecful and civil manner.

You are good at pushing buttons i don't mind that and pretend not to notice until i get triggered myself lol

 

[Todd]

Because there is no difference between right and wrong. Do as thou wilt...Thats what you are preaching..It's all good God will sort it out...

I am not preaching do as thou wilt at all. There are still serious consequences to be paid. There is still reward and punishement.

 

[Todd]

. Do you ever write a post without mentioning how bad /wrong etc etc other christians are.

Probaly not very often. I think many of the Christians on this forum are doing a pretty good job of patting themselves on the back, so I don't really see a need to add to it. The reality is that on a dsicussion forum we mainly only observe the doctrine and theology of each other and have very few glimpses of whether that doctrine or theology actually produces good fruit in each individual's life or the people we touch in real life.

Since most of my reasons for entering discussions on this forum are to challenge the mainstream doctrines and theology of organized religion, it is understood why I come across as good at pushing other Christian's buttons. I don't spend much time posting about Christian topics on the forum I agree with.

Button pushing can be a catalyst for inward inspection and re-evaluation of beliefs based on pre-suppostions and indoctrination. So though I don't come trying to intentionally push people's buttons, when I do, I'm not loosing too much sleep over it. Just like I don't loose sleep when others doubt my personal salvation.