Once Saved Always Saved?

[Todd]

You are NOT going to gain any “new” or “more accurate” information by reading—for example—the New Testament in Koine Greek than you would reading the same NT in English from the King James Holy Bible, which is a direct translation of the NT from Greek to English.

LOL! you can't be serious?

 

[Lisa]

Maybe someday God will grant you the same blessing too!

I sure hope I don’t fall away like you Todd, that would be horrible.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

LOL! you can't be serious?

Yes, I am quite serious.

I have complete faith that it says the same thing in English as it does in Greek.

 

[Serveto]

I mean, like, 50 pages of OSAS? Why don't y'all just vote on it and call the matter done? "Have (Christian) Theology, will argue."

 

[Lisa]

I mean, like, 50 pages of OSAS? Why don't y'all just vote on it and call the matter done? "Have (Christian) Theology, will argue lol."

You mean like a compromise?

 

[Serveto]

You mean like a compromise?

No. I mean as was done at the Nicene Council .

 

[Lisa]

No. I mean like the Nicene Council .

Well, I think that many churches think osas is truth.

 

[Serveto]

Well, I think that many churches think osas is truth.

"Both read the Bible
day and night
but thou read'st black
where I read white."
William Blake

​

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Well at least it's different non-sense then the world is used to hearing from the church about a supposedly loving God who sadistically burns people eternally with no purpose to it.

Not sure how it is a derailment when the topic is salvation. Can't help it if my thoughts on the subject at hand cause others to ask questions about my beliefs. Wouldn't be much of a discussion board if everyone agreed on everything anyways, would it?

Why is it sadistic to mete out punishment to offenders?

That is justice, not sadism.

And God isn’t “supposedly” loving....He IS loving. He loves us enough to sacrifice His only begotten Son, Who never sinned, to pay the wages of our sins even though we don’t deserve it.

He offers this gift of salvation freely to all who believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, hoping all will receive it and be saved from Hell.

How can you blame Him for those who reject it?

 

[Todd]

Why is it sadistic to mete out punishment to offenders?

That is justice, not sadism.

And God isn’t “supposedly” loving....He IS loving. He loves us enough to sacrifice His only begotten Son, Who never sinned, to pay the wages of our sins even though we don’t deserve it.

He offers this gift of salvation freely to all who believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, hoping all will receive it and be saved from Hell.

How can you blame Him for those who reject it?

Infinite eternal suffering for finite temporal sins is not justice. Even human society has standards for how to humanely treat criminals who are punished. Would you stand for it if correctional facilities tortured but didn't kill prisoners, no matter what horrible crimes they may have committed?

I know the God i serve is loving. I say supposedly about the God you portray, because loving and sadisitic do not go together.

I don't actually blame God for anything, because I know in the end his punishment is corrective and redemptive. That is the whole point of the good news of the gospel.

 

[Vytas]

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Seems to me punishment place wasn't originally meant for us ,as it says prepared for devil and his angels, but nonetheless some will end up in there...

 

[Vytas]

Infinite eternal suffering for finite temporal sins is not justice.

I think sins if not covered by Jesus are infinite.I mean where they disappear ? If your soul is poisoned it doesn't heal on it's own. Satan doesn't seem to be changing for the better either...And he is best example we have for infinite...If we never repented when we were alive and had a chance that sounds like a bad news...

 

[Todd]

Yes, I am quite serious.

I have complete faith that it says the same thing in English as it does in Greek.

I know this article has aionios in the title of the article, but I am not posting here to convince you that aionios does not mean "eternal" or "everlasting". I'm posting it as a response to your absurd notion that text in a greek language from 2000 years ago in a middle east culture can be translated into English 1600 years latter in a english culture and society and then 420 years latter in American culture and society can convey the exact same thing to us at face value, with no historical, societal or linguistic investigation and study.

http://orvillejenkins.com/theology/aionios.html

 

[Todd]

I think sins if not covered by Jesus are infinite.I mean where they disappear ? If your soul is poisoned it doesn't heal on it's own. Satan doesn't seem to be changing for the better either...And he is best example we have for infinite...If we never repented when we were alive and had a chance that sounds like a bad news...

The consequences of our sins disappear when God redeems andheals us all. Ultimately that is what salvation is. Salvation is freedom from the power of sin. Even for the beleiver salvation is not freedom or escape from consequences. When I sin, even if I repent and ask for forgiveness, if my sins have hurst someone else the consequences of those sins still remain with that other person. Even though I am forgiven I may still be called to answer for the consequences in the other persons life. I many also be held responsible for restitution.

The point I am trying to make is our sins committed in this temporal world are no match for the infinite, eternal God. The purpose of God's punishment is to correct and redeem. The bible clearly says that God remains the same and does not change. If God's fire and punishment is for our purification and correction in this current age there is no foundation or basis to believe that it won't serve the same purpose in the ages to come.

Why do Christians believe God stops loving sinners after death. Why do Christians think the power of death is greater than God's mercy and forgivness?

 

[Vytas]

The consequences of our sins disappear when God redeems andheals us all. Ultimately that is what salvation is. Salvation is freedom from the power of sin. Even for the beleiver salvation is not freedom or escape from consequences. When I sin, even if I repent and ask for forgiveness, if my sins have hurst someone else the consequences of those sins still remain with that other person. Even though I am forgiven I may still be called to answer for the consequences in the other persons life. I many also be held responsible for restitution.

The point I am trying to make is our sins committed in this temporal world are no match for the infinite, eternal God. The purpose of God's punishment is to correct and redeem. The bible clearly says that God remains the same and does not change. If God's fire and punishment is for our purification and correction in this current age there is no foundation or basis to believe that it won't serve the same purpose in the ages to come.

Why do Christians believe God stops loving sinners after death. Why do Christians think the power of death is greater than God's mercy and forgivness?

And if some people don't want to be healed and redeemed ? He will do it against their will ? So in the end we all end up in the same barrel ? That doesn't sound like justice...Actually that would seriously piss me off...

And why you believe that Gods love will stop him from executing justice ? Your God seems to be very one dimensional love love love...I recall He showed some other traits in OT

 

[Todd]

And if some people don't want to be healed and redeemed ? He will do it against their will ? So in the end we all end up in the same barrel ? That doesn't sound like justice...Actually that would seriously piss me off...

And why you believe that Gods love will stop him from executing justice ? Your God seems to be very one dimensional love love love...I recall He showed some other traits in OT

You really believe when the mask of this temporal world is gone and people really see God for who he is, that anyone will not want to be healed and redeemed? Sure many will still resist initially and it may take a long time for them to finally yield. But don't many of us who received salvation in this lifetime have a similar experience. We felt the tug of God in our spirit and initially we were resistant and did not want to yield. But the draw of God was too much and eventually we yielded. The bible says God is long suffering and the parable of the lost sheep demostrates God's tenacity for reaching everyone. Who knows how long it will take for the hardest most reprobate of sinners to finally break. But God has all the time in the world and then some.

Is your view of God that small? Did anyone who accepts salvation in this lifetime really make the choice on their own or was it really God that choose us? Do you take credit for actually seeking and choosing God?

I'm curious why all of humanity being redeemed would piss your off? Do you think it wouldn't be fair? Because the reality is none of us deserve God. God choosing you to experience salvation in this lifetime while others do not, is really what is not fair.

I have never stated that God will not excute justice. UR does not negate the idea of punishment and sorrow for unrepentant sin. UR simply claims that God's wrath and anger will come to an end when justice is served but his love and mercy will endure forever.

I think your view of the ages to come is rather black and white, when you say "we all end up in the same barrel". Their are clearly rewards and blessings for the righteous. Just because I claim that all will be redeemed and restored to God eventually doesn't mean there won't be blessing and rewards for those who believed and were righteous in this lifetime, that not everyone will receive.

 

[justjess]

So in the end we all end up in the same barrel ? That doesn't sound like justice...Actually that would seriously piss me off...

He would be pissed off because he put all this “effort and time” into pleasing and fearing god while other lazy bums just did what they wanted and got the same reward as him. It’s the same exact mindset behind denying people things which should be basic human rights - a home, medical care, food - because they don’t work or don’t work “hard enough”

It’s a natural human impulse. In groups and out groups, hierarchies etc. But god isn’t human. He is above those petty human traits.

 

[Todd]

I sure hope I don’t fall away like you Todd, that would be horrible.

Yes...believing God is capable of fulfilling his will and having faith in how awesome God is that none will be lost for eternity is down right horrible! And experiencing God delivering me from the power of sin and the blessings that come with that has been down right unbearable! LOL! Whatever helps you sleep at night, Lisa!

 

[Todd]

He would be pissed off because he put all this “effort and time” into pleasing and fearing god while other lazy bums just did what they wanted and got the same reward as him. It’s the same exact mindset behind denying people things which should be basic human rights - a home, medical care, food - because they don’t work or don’t work “hard enough”

It’s a natural human impulse. In groups and out groups, hierarchies etc. But god isn’t human. He is above those petty human traits.

You are 100% correct. It shows that most Christians only motive for "serving" God is too keep their "get out of jail free card" and not because they genuinely love and adore God for who he is. Of course when your image of God is a sadistic, vengeful, punisher then fear and not love is the only motivation there can be.

Perfect love casts our all fear!

 

[Todd]

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Seems to me punishment place wasn't originally meant for us ,as it says prepared for devil and his angels, but nonetheless some will end up in there...

Yeah because God never loved the devil and the angels when he created them either, right?