Once Saved Always Saved?

[TokiEl]

Okay, not many true Christians in the world then.

Only 144 000 holy Christians in the world but many more who are righteous Christians.

 

[DevaWolf]

Only 144 000 holy Christians in the world but many more who are righteous Christians.

Are you a JWH witness?

 

[TokiEl]

I do NOT oppose anyone saying we must stop sinning....I only oppose when people make false claims that a person MUST stop sinning IN ORDER to be saved from Hell.

You are telling LIES straight from the pit of Hell by telling people they cannot go to Heaven just by believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are saying that it is not enough to trust & believe on Jesus Christ for salvation. You are saying the blood of Jesus Christ is NOT sufficient to pay for our sins, that WE have to add to it....you are DENYING that Jesus saves , and you are a LIAR for it.

Do You want to know WHY I think you are telling these lies?

Because you do NOT want people to get saved from Hell.

You WANT them to believe they have to be PERFECT for Jesus to save them, which is IMPOSSIBLE unless you ARE Jesus.

You are an ENEMY to the cause of Christ, an ENEMY to the Gospel and a servant of Satan.

I am exhorting churchgoers to stop sinning and be holy and separate from sinners and sins.

Of course i am an enemy to the Babylon culture churches who are self confessed sinners who refuse to stop sinning.

This laodicean attitude concerning sins give me a bad taste in my mouth and i'm not even the one who will spew them out.

 

[Allegra]

I am exhorting churchgoers to stop sinning and be holy and separate from sinners and sins.

Of course i am an enemy to the Babylon culture churches who are self confessed sinners who refuse to stop sinning.

This laodicean attitude concerning sins give me a bad taste in my mouth and i'm not even the one who will spew them out.

Laodicean churches are like those prosperity preachers followers.

 

[TokiEl]

Are you a JWH witness?

If you open your bible to Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 you can read about those who will be sealed by God at the beginning of the great tribulation. Those are 144 000 holy and blameless Christians.

 

[TokiEl]

Laodicean churches are like those prosperity preachers followers.

Prosperity and easy grace churches.

 

[TokiEl]

James was not a Pharisee. But he also did not believe in works salvation.

The passage starting in verse 14 he is speaking to people who ARE SAVED (which is why he addresses them as “brethren”), encouraging them to do good works, yes, because we ought to do good works once we are saved.

Do not confuse the brethren with the church.

Church don't understand that Grace is the spilt blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins... and that is a done deal and has been since before the creation of the world. And so it is absolutely impossible and nobody are doing it anyway...working for remission of sins.

Many have man made church rules and regulations concerning this and that but that's because the Devil not only joined the church but took over. And he got you all to say you are still sinners and you all take comfort in that... like the underachievers you are.

Prepare to be spewed out !

 

[ChristianTruther007]

I know what holy means. It means without sins.

That is non debatable.

One of the dictionary definitions of holy: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity.

 

[ChristianTruther007]

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


James was a Pharisee?

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
King James Version (KJV)

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Do not confuse the brethren with the church.

Church don't understand that Grace is the spilt blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins... and that is a done deal and has been since before the creation of the world. And so it is absolutely impossible and nobody are doing it anyway...working for remission of sins.

Many have man made church rules and regulations concerning this and that but that's because the Devil not only joined the church but took over. And he got you all to say you are still sinners and you all take comfort in that... like the underachievers you are.

Prepare to be spewed out !

Who said ANYONE takes comfort in being a sinner??

Literally NOBODY on this board has. Nobody has said we can or should go out and sin it up without a care in the world. You are putting words in our mouths.

There is a difference between humbling oneself enough to ADMIT being a sinner, and therefore being in need of a Saviour, vs. carelessly promoting sin.

No one is promoting sin.

No one here is proud of being a sinner, or suggesting that sin is good.

Jesus died to pay for our sins, and since you claim you do not sin, (a lie, which is a sin, btw) what do you even need Jesus to save you from??

You keep dodging my question.....are you saved?

 

[Camidria]

Who said ANYONE takes comfort in being a sinner??

Literally NOBODY on this board has. Nobody has said we can or should go out and sin it up without a care in the world. You are putting words in our mouths.

There is a difference between humbling oneself enough to ADMIT being a sinner, and therefore being in need of a Saviour, vs. carelessly promoting sin.

No one is promoting sin.

No one here is proud of being a sinner, or suggesting that sin is good.

Jesus died to pay for our sins, and since you claim you do not sin, (a lie, which is a sin, btw) what do you even need Jesus to save you from??

You keep dodging my question.....are you saved?

Absolutely 100% agree with this!

 

[Lisa]

Literally NOBODY on this board has. Nobody has said we can or should go out and sin it up without a care in the world. You are putting words in our mouths.

Maybe he thinks that’s what osas means? I mean you could go out and sin it up couldn’t you?

 

[Daciple]

But that's what the pharisees did. They studied so much that they didn't recognize the Messiah whom they were waiting for. And Jesus told them that they study and study the scriptures thinking in them they find eternal life... as they were not willing to receive Him whom the scriptures speak about.

So you dont think you ought to study Scriptures now? You think you know all there is to know concerning Scripture?

You also are not interpreting that Scripture correctly, He literally is telling them GO BACK AND STUDY because the Scripture do tell of Him. It would be prudent for you to take into CONTEXT everything Jesus tells the Pharisees so you can understand each independent interaction.

I am exhorting churchgoers to stop sinning and for this i am opposed.

You repeat this daily and yet daily you are told that is not the case, do you have reading comprehension problems or do you just enjoy being willfully ignorant?

As Claire and basic every Christian on the board has explained to you, no one has a problem with rebuking of Sin, at ALL. The problem is your constant conflation with WORKS and JUSTIFICATION before the Lord. THAT is what people take issue with you about, however no matter how many times we make that statement and tell you the difference you still want to play the role of victim, cover your ears and yell about how we are you rebuking you for your statements about Sin.

After what I and Claire have written in this thread, if you make that statement again, you are lying, and well lying is a Sin, dont be like the Pharisees and keep trying to rebuke everyone else for their Sins, while lying on the board, it isnt a good look...

 

[DevaWolf]

If you open your bible to Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 you can read about those who will be sealed by God at the beginning of the great tribulation. Those are 144 000 holy and blameless Christians.

And God created all the rest of us to be doomed?

Lovely fellow, that God.

 

[Daciple]

Maybe he thinks that’s what osas means? I mean you could go out and sin it up couldn’t you?

Well so can you right? However you and everyone who is Saved, they have this thing called the Holy Spirit in them that convicts them and continually tries to guide them away from Sin.

If you were to go back into Sin, then you would become miserable. A Lost person doesnt care that they Sin, they dont feel miserable because they are in Sin, they are CONTENT in their Sin.

A Saved person however, since the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them ETERNALLY, is under constant conviction and is continually drawn back to Christ.

Also they could just read the Bible, Paul wrote about that exact thing:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And Jude makes it clear that those who live that way, with no Repentance, trying to use the Grace of God for a License to Sin, they were never Saved to begin with:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Like I have said before those who act in these manners, didnt Lose Salvation they NEVER were Saved, as John spoke about:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Lisa]

And God created all the rest of us to be doomed?

Lovely fellow, that God.

Well for one thing, @TokiEl doesn’t know what he is talking about Biblically speaking, he’s off in his theology according to the Bible.

And, no, God didn’t create all the rest to be doomed. He is actually a lovely fellow and He wants everyone to be saved...everyone no matter who you are can be saved by God.

 

[Daciple]

And God created all the rest of us to be doomed?

Lovely fellow, that God.

No, dont pay attention to most of what he says, he doesnt have a good grasp on Biblical Doctrine whatsoever.

God didnt create anyone to be doomed, in fact just the opposite:

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So much so that He has done absolutely everything that will ever be needed for you not to be doomed, by sending His Son Jesus Christ to live up to the Law Perfectly, which none of us could have ever hoped to do. Who then laid down His Life, because He loves us so much, and took up the Wrath we deserve so that if we just simply believe in Him for Salvation, then we shall be Eternally Saved.

If we Repent, which means change our mind, concerning Sin, Death and Hell, and who Jesus is and what He came to do, and believe on Christ that He died on the Cross for our Sins and Resurrected, and confess Him, then we will be Saved. We recieve the Holy Spirit at that time that we truly believe on Christ, who seals us forevermore to Eternal Life and then begins to work in us to cause us to do Good Works and turn from our Sins.

That is the Gospel, and God wants all men to Repent and Believe the Gospel, if you do that then you will never be Doomed, again dont listen to Toki about any of this, or almost anything past Jesus is God who died for your Sins, he doesnt understand anything else beyond that apparently...

 

[Lisa]

Well so can you right? However you and everyone who is Saved, they have this thing called the Holy Spirit in them that convicts them and continually tries to guide them away from Sin.

If you were to go back into Sin, then you would become miserable. A Lost person doesnt care that they Sin, they dont feel miserable because they are in Sin, they are CONTENT in their Sin.

A Saved person however, since the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them ETERNALLY, is under constant conviction and is continually drawn back to Christ.

Also they could just read the Bible, Paul wrote about that exact thing:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And Jude makes it clear that those who live that way, with no Repentance, trying to use the Grace of God for a License to Sin, they were never Saved to begin with:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Like I have said before those who act in these manners, didnt Lose Salvation they NEVER were Saved, as John spoke about:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I appreciate you keeping your reply shorter than usual!

Well, the thinking is that if you are osas it really wouldn’t matter if you sin because nothing will take away your salvation, not even sinning. So, why not sin, you could always ask forgiveness after?

O, that’s right, that’s how osas get around the why not sin thing...if you go on sinning you weren’t really saved in the first place. People can grieve the Holy Spirit...or are they also not saved either?

I disagree, I don’t think anyone is content in their sins which leads to other sins in trying to combat sin instead of going to Jesus.

 

[Daciple]

So, why not sin, you could always ask forgiveness after?

Why would we WANT to Sin? I really dont understand this idea that just because we have the FREEDOM to do whatever we want, that we have the DESIRE to do so?

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

I tried to make this point earlier about Freedom in Christ, and what it means, but the fact is Christ set us FREE completely and totally FREE, we CAN do anything we want. However when we are Born Again we have a new nature, our Desires CHANGE, we no longer WANT to Sin and definitely dont WANT to live in constant Sin.

Why dont YOU want to Sin? Is it because you are afraid you are going to Lose your Salvation? Is that REALLY why you dont want to Sin?

If you do sin you can always ask for Forgiveness later right?

I dont think the reason YOU dont want to Sin is because you are afraid you are going to Lose your Salvation, I bet it is because you love the Lord and want to follow and honor Him to the best of your ability. If the reason you dont Sin is because you are afraid you are going to Lose your Salvation, well then I think you are going about everything completely backwards...

I believe I can not Lose my Salvation, however I DONT want to Sin, for 2 reasons. First because I love the Lord and WANT to obey Him because He loves me and died to secure my Salvation. 2nd is that Sin ALWAYS has a repercussion. Either a physical repercussion such as if we commit Adultery then its going to devastate our wife/husband and ruin our family ect.

It also has a Spiritual repercussion, when we fall into Sin, we begin to interfer with our Relationship with God, and we will experience Sadness, Anxiety, Frustration, Anger ect. We will become miserable as I said earlier. No Saved person can turn back to Sin and be Happy. Also it brings chastisement from our Father in Heaven.

So because we Love God and want to honor Him for what He has done, does and will do, because it brings reprecussions and because it can also bring chastisement, is why I dont Sin. If these are not the reasons YOU dont Sin then I think you have your reasons backwards...

O, that’s right, that’s how osas get around the why not sin thing...if you go on sinning you weren’t really saved in the first place.

I said if someone thinks they can continue in Sin without any consequences and can live in that Sin then they havent been saved (the idea of a license to sin) , if they "depart the Faith" (were from us but not of us) they werent saved either. Both of those ideologies are straight from the Bible as I already quoted. You can believe whatever you would like, but what I have said is Scripture...

People can grieve the Holy Spirit...or are they also not saved either?

Not sure I follow the logic here, further elaborate if possible..

I disagree, I don’t think anyone is content in their sins which leads to other sins in trying to combat sin instead of going to Jesus.

Except that isnt what the Bible states, it states people ARE comfortable in their Sins and have no ability to turn away from them until the Gospel pricks their hearts.

I mean from your Testimony it is hard to explain this to you because apparently you have no experiences which to draw from concerning these things. I only know what you have revealed about yourself and you have stated you dont have a Salvation Experience, that you were saved as a child.

I was Lost until I was 20 yrs old, I had an Experience where I went from Lost to Saved. I can tell you that Sin did NOT bother me at all as it does today. I could get drunk, high, have sex ect and felt NO REMORSE at all, I was all about it. However ONCE I got Saved, those desires have waned and if I were to do them or when I do Sin now more like it, then I have CONVICTION and feel terrible.

There is a distinct difference in how one feels about and handles Sin before and after Conversion...

 

[Lisa]

Why would we WANT to Sin? I really dont understand this idea that just because we have the FREEDOM to do whatever we want, that we have the DESIRE to do so?

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

I tried to make this point earlier about Freedom in Christ, and what it means, but the fact is Christ set us FREE completely and totally FREE, we CAN do anything we want. However when we are Born Again we have a new nature, our Desires CHANGE, we no longer WANT to Sin and definitely dont WANT to live in constant Sin.

Why dont YOU want to Sin? Is it because you are afraid you are going to Lose your Salvation? Is that REALLY why you dont want to Sin?

If you do sin you can always ask for Forgiveness later right?

I dont think the reason YOU dont want to Sin is because you are afraid you are going to Lose your Salvation, I bet it is because you love the Lord and want to follow and honor Him to the best of your ability. If the reason you dont Sin is because you are afraid you are going to Lose your Salvation, well then I think you are going about everything completely backwards...

I believe I can not Lose my Salvation, however I DONT want to Sin, for 2 reasons. First because I love the Lord and WANT to obey Him because He loves me and died to secure my Salvation. 2nd is that Sin ALWAYS has a repercussion. Either a physical repercussion such as if we commit Adultery then its going to devastate our wife/husband and ruin our family ect.

It also has a Spiritual repercussion, when we fall into Sin, we begin to interfer with our Relationship with God, and we will experience Sadness, Anxiety, Frustration, Anger ect. We will become miserable as I said earlier. No Saved person can turn back to Sin and be Happy. Also it brings chastisement from our Father in Heaven.

So because we Love God and want to honor Him for what He has done, does and will do, because it brings reprecussions and because it can also bring chastisement, is why I dont Sin. If these are not the reasons YOU dont Sin then I think you have your reasons backwards...



I said if someone thinks they can continue in Sin without any consequences and can live in that Sin then they havent been saved (the idea of a license to sin) , if they "depart the Faith" (were from us but not of us) they werent saved either. Both of those ideologies are straight from the Bible as I already quoted. You can believe whatever you would like, but what I have said is Scripture...



Not sure I follow the logic here, further elaborate if possible..



Except that isnt what the Bible states, it states people ARE comfortable in their Sins and have no ability to turn away from them until the Gospel pricks their hearts.

I mean from your Testimony it is hard to explain this to you because apparently you have no experiences which to draw from concerning these things. I only know what you have revealed about yourself and you have stated you dont have a Salvation Experience, that you were saved as a child.

I was Lost until I was 20 yrs old, I had an Experience where I went from Lost to Saved. I can tell you that Sin did NOT bother me at all as it does today. I could get drunk, high, have sex ect and felt NO REMORSE at all, I was all about it. However ONCE I got Saved, those desires have waned and if I were to do them or when I do Sin now more like it, then I have CONVICTION and feel terrible.

There is a distinct difference in how one feels about and handles Sin before and after Conversion...

It just seemed to me that being lax on sin would be something osas would do. But I did forget that osas figures those people not really saved anyway.

I would add some of the verses I found but you would only ignore what they said..so I feel like I really can’t really add to the conversation here. And what I mean about ignore is that you bring in your mountain of words and add other verses that you think prove that what the verse I found is wrong and that becomes very frustrating to me as I am limited to what you say.

Grieving the Holy Spirit is essentially continuing to sin isn’t it?

I think people do hate their sins but don’t make the correlation. The alcoholic hates his sin but can’t control it so he drinks some more. I don’t know that everyone is happy in their sins.

I don’t remember an experience but that doesn’t mean I don’t have any experiences with God but all you care about is that I don’t remember an experience. To me that’s kind of silly and limiting.

I don’t know, when we first came back to this site, you had your own thread where you practically boasted that you went back to your old life. Is that what you are talking about how someone handles sin after conversion?