Once Saved Always Saved?

[TokiEl]

Jesus was angry at the religious hypocrisy of Jews and as an authorized spokesperson of Jesus Christ i am angry at the religious hypocrisy of Christians.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Jesus demands good fruits !


When passages conflict you can't just cherry pick what suits you... but must include those pesky passages to get the full picture.

But that’s the problem.....you are NOT.

YOU are cherrypicking verses in an effort to defend what YOU believe.

And you don’t even want to consider any other Scripture that doesn’t align with YOUR beliefs.

If you are interested in truth, I can show you that salvation is by grace through faith alone.

You think it’s not. Then please explain how these verses are wrong:

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” ....Romans 4:5

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:” ....Philippians 3:9

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.” .....Hebrews 11:7

“And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” .....Genesis 15:6

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” ......Romans 4:3

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” ......Romans 4:13

“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” .....Romans 10:3

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”......Ephesians 2:8-9

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” .......Romans 11:6

“But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” ........Acts 15:11

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.” ......Romans 4:4

Romans 3:
22 “Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;“


“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” ........Galatians 2:21

Galatians 5:
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” ......Galatians 2:16

“For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?”......Romans 3:3

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

.......I could go on all day.

Do you believe these verses, or do you think they are lies?

 

[bible_student]

View attachment 21231

If you premeditate a crime and do it and then afterwards repent and ask forgiveness, God may punish you for it first and then forgive you.

There is no escape.

 

[TokiEl]

But that’s the problem.....you are NOT.

YOU are cherrypicking verses in an effort to defend what YOU believe.

And you don’t even want to consider any other Scripture that doesn’t align with YOUR beliefs.

If you are interested in truth, I can show you that salvation is by grace through faith alone.


Do you believe these verses, or do you think they are lies?

I believe Peter said it best after he had read some of Paul's letters.

2 Peter 3 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


I would advice anybody to leave Paul's letters alone and instead concentrate on what Jesus Christ said in the red letter words. God might be testing you to see where your allegiance really is... with His Son or with Paul whom according to Peter is hard to understand.

 

[bible_student]

What you guys are selling is that no one is ever really saved, and I'm not buying it.

What we are doing is we are not buying into the false gospel of arrested development.

If you buy into it and stop striving and then stay in the same place, you are getting nowhere or worse, you will go backwards and get worse. And the problem with doing that is that everyone's time is running out.

If someone wants to claim Jesus Christ so they can get away with murder, I will let Jesus Christ deal with that person, but it's pretty bad when you have to use the same argument against grace that Muslims use.

He will deal with that person:

Gal. 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he also reap.

That is how this all works, and no one can escape from it.

 

[Daciple]

At least I laid out my opinion with scripture

Lets be real Lisa, we have discussed this in length in the past and I have quoted dozens of Scriptures to back up my point. In fact even in this post I quoted multiple Scriptures.

In the end it comes down to how is one Justified for Salvation, is it Works or is it Faith?

Justification vs Sanctification, which for some reason those who adhere to their Works Based Salvation Doctrines, such as losing your Salvation, refuse to comprehend properly. So how are we Justified before God?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

According to this verse, while we were Sinner (aka in no position to receive or partake in what is needed to attain Salvation) Christ died for us, and THEN because of Christs Blood we NOW are Justified and Saved.

Do you see any works here? I surely dont, in fact in context and proper exegesis we see that we can NOT have a hand in our Salvation and Justification before God, it is ONLY by Christs Blood. It also states we WERE aka a past tense thing, its is DONE already, reconciled to God and we have NOW received the Atonement.

What else does the Bible teach about Justification?

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So this Scripture tells us that it is a FREE GIFT that brings us Justification. Can a Gift be Free it one needs to Work to attain or keep it? Justification is Free to all, because of Christs Blood, THAT is Scripture.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So this Scripture tells us plainly that no one shall be Justified in His Sight by deeds of the Law, aka by Works. Therefore we can know without a doubt that there is absolutely nothing we can do, no "Good Works" that Justify us before God. Justification = Salvation in case you dont recognize this. So no "Good Works" can bring or keep our Salvation.

In your False Ideal/Doctrine, you are essentially saying that people and yourself are Justified by YOUR "Good Works" by performing Deeds of the Law, however that goes directly against Scripture.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What do these Scriptures tell us about Justification? First off how is one considered Righteous? Is it by something of ourselves, our works? According to these Scriptures our Righteousness isnt found in us, its found in Faith of Jesus Christ to those that believe.

How can we think that our Works bring or Keep our Salvation/Justification when our Righteousness is only found in Faith in Christ to those that believe?

The Scriptures then go on to declare that we are Justified FREELY by His Grace, thru the Redemption that is Christ Jesus. Do we see Works anywhere found in that? I dont think so, and in fact is there even the possibility to have Grace if Works are included into the mix?

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is impossible to mix Faith and Grace for Justification unto Salvation, and whether you or anyone else that believes they can lose their Salvation, you all are trying to be Justified by the Law and clearly Scripture tells us that we CAN NOT be Saved/Justified by our or any Works. To think, teach or believe that means that Christ has become of no effect to you and you have fallen from Grace.

Furthermore returning back to Romans, is our propitiation (Our Standing with God being Appeased) because of our Works or not? According to Scripture it is because of Christs Blood and Faith in it, so how can we insist that our Works have anything to do with our Justification?

So according to Scripture who Justifies us and why? Verse 26 declares that it is God who does the Justifying and He Justifies us when we believe in Jesus Christ. Do we see works recorded anywhere in these verses? No because our Works have nothing to do with our Justification before God for Salvation.

And finally what does Paul conclude concerning Works and Justification? That a man is Justified by Faith WITHOUT the Deeds of the Law aka Works.

Do you need more Scriptures that speak on our Justification? Because THAT is what we are speaking about, our Justification before God, is it FAITH or WORKS?

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Here again Paul makes it clear there is a difference between Grace and Works, and that it is impossible to be Justified by Works and still have Grace. Once you add Works to Grace, Grace goes away and it is Debt. Him that Work doesnt receive a reward of Grace. How was Abraham the founder of the Faith Justified? By Grace thru Faith and Belief or Works? According to Scripture it is because he BELIEVED and therefore was found Righteous, his Works Justified nothing before God.

He who Works doesnt get Grace, that is Scripture, over and over, but believing on Him who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, the one who believes on Him, their Faith is counted for Righteousness.

More Scriptures?

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

How are we Justified again? Is it by Works? Nope it is by Faith we are Justified before God for Salvation. I dont know how many more Scriptures you would like me to quote concerning how Justification before God is found. I dont know how many more Scripture you would like me to quote that show that Grace and Works for Salvation dont mix, that adding Works into the Grace of God literally causes you to lose the Promises, lose Christ and everything He has done for you.

But you refuse to take all of this into account when you read all your Proof Texts you are using, and thus improperly interpret them. Scripture needs to read in light of Scripture, so if Scripture blatantly says over and over that we are Justified by Faith ALONE, then we need to interpret any Scripture that speaks of Works in that light.

Salvation was given to us by Faith, it is secured to us by Faith and let us remember exactly where that Faith came from if you want to say well someone can lose Faith and then fall away. Well where did that Faith come from again?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Well it looks like God is the one who gives us our Faith to begin with, yet you would like to tell others that God will take away the Faith He gave us, that brought us to Salvation and Justification before Him?

I dont believe God works like that at all. In fact Paul never speaks of a God that takes these things back, he writes many Scriptures to assure us of exactly the opposite thing.

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

At one time we were all those things listed, however by Faith in Christ what does Paul tell us we now are? We are Washed, we are Sanctified and we are Justified in the name of Jesus. And according to Scripture how long does it last and from when was it known?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So according to this those who are Justified by Faith in Christ were known before the foundation of the World and therefore they will endure UNTIL THE END, because it is God, not me or you, who Justifies us by Faith in Christ.

Need more Scriptures about where our Justification comes from?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are not Justified by Works, but by Faith in Christ and no man ever has or ever will be Justified by Works, ever. That means all of you Works Based Salvationists are completely and willfully ignorant of how Justification is merited out. Nothing you do can change your standing before God, whether that is prior or after being Born Again, because your Justification is not measured by your Works.

I really dont think you who believe you can Lose your Salvation even comprehend the Freedom that is in Christ. Do you not recognize that you are literally Free to do ANYTHING you want? Nothing you do affects your position with God in terms of Salvation period. Dont believe me? Look what Paul says:

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Have you studied Freedom and the impact of this verse on your life? Jesus makes you Free and therefore you are Free indeed, that really is the Truth, yet many people cant accept it. If you think you can Lose Salvation or are trying to add Works to keep your Salvation then you truly have yet to understand the depths of the Freedom Christ has given us. You are literally Free to do anything you want, now this doesnt mean you should or ought to, many thing are NOT good for you, however you are completely and totally Free to do them without worries of your Position of Righteousness and Justification before God. That is what Freedom means and Paul states ALL THINGS, not some, not most but ALL THINGS are Lawful for him.

That means he literally can do anything he wants at anytime, and he speaks this way because he understands that 1) Christ has given him complete and total Freedom 2) That his merit, Justification and Righteous Position before the Lord doesnt depend on him, its 100% dependent on Christ and Christ Alone and Faith in Him. He prefaces the fact that he is completely free to do literally anything he wants by saying not all things are expedient or edify, but just because they are not expedient or edify mean that he is NOT Free to do them.

Only someone who is secure and understands where his Righteousness, his Justification comes from could ever make a statement that he can do anything he wants. Look at most of you on here, yall want to say if you do this or that you jeopardize your Salvation, Paul says eh, I can do ANYTHING because I am Free and none of it affects my Positional Righteousness and Justification before God, why? Because none of that is dependent on me, its all on Christ...

Is that really what Paul thought? That nothing he did affects his standing with God in terms of Salvation and Justification? Any more Scriptures about it?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

All of you saying that you can Lose your Salvation, or keep saying you need to do Works to maintain it, all of you are the same as the foolish Galatians, and what does Paul write to them concerning this?

Did you receive the Spirit by Works or by Faith? Are you all going to be so foolish to think that what you began in the Spirit is perfected or maintained by your Flesh?

What he is asking them is, were you Born Again by Works or by believing in the Gospel by Faith? The answer of course is that they were heathens that had nothing good to offer God and that they were Born Again, Justified by Faith when they heard the Gospel.

So Lisa and others, were you Born Again by Works or by believing the Gospel by Faith?

Do you now think that you are going to be able to maintain, keep or help out your Salvation by Works of your Flesh? Are you that foolish to believe that which was started by the Spirit is kept or finished by your Flesh?

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You, me, nor anyone else is Justified by the Law, by Works, the Just, aka the ones Justified are Justified and live by what? Works? Nope, by Faith.

I can write even more with many more verses if you would like but my point is clearly made. We never have or ever will be Justified by our Works, it was impossible for us to have any Works that could attain it, and it is just as impossible to have any Works that can maintain or keep our Salvation and Justification before God.

We are Justified by Faith and in even that it is something God has given us.

Grace and Works for Justification do not mix, ever, to claim so, which is the actual position of every single person who believes they can Lose their Salvation or need to do this or that to keep their Salvation, makes Christ of NO EFFECT to you or them, all of you have fallen from Grace.

Is this emotionless enough for you Lisa? Was there enough Scripture quoted?

I know you will continue to ignore all of this and refuse to understand Scripture correctly because whatever part of you want to keep believing that you have a hand in your Salvation, but you dont. Jesus Christ made you Free, and with that Freedom is the fact that you no longer can do anything that would ever affect your Salvation.

If you are Born Again Christ did it all, however if you havent had that Saving Grace Experience then you are Lost and of course Lost people who claim to be Christians but arent, they look like they fall away from the Faith to outsiders, but they never were saved. John tells us about them:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If they were of them then they would have NO DOUBT continued with them, but they went out to be shown that they were not all of them. That is literally what the position of myself and every other person that accepts the Truth concerning Justification and the impossibility believe. If you are saved then you are forever saved, if you are not and walk away, well you really werent saved, just like these people John is writing about here.

Good News is Jesus Christ did it all for you, why not accept it?

 

[bible_student]

If you are interested in truth, I can show you that salvation is by grace through faith alone.

But it depends on faith being alive for that to apply.

Read James' Gospel.

James
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

Faith without works is DEAD.

 

[bible_student]

Lets be real Lisa, we have discussed this in length in the past and I have quoted dozens of Scriptures to back up my point. In fact even in this post I quoted multiple Scriptures.

In the end it comes down to how is one Justified for Salvation, is it Works or is it Faith?

Justification vs Sanctification, which for some reason those who adhere to their Works Based Salvation Doctrines, such as losing your Salvation, refuse to comprehend properly. So how are we Justified before God?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

According to this verse, while we were Sinner (aka in no position to receive or partake in what is needed to attain Salvation) Christ died for us, and THEN because of Christs Blood we NOW are Justified and Saved.

Do you see any works here? I surely dont, in fact in context and proper exegesis we see that we can NOT have a hand in our Salvation and Justification before God, it is ONLY by Christs Blood. It also states we WERE aka a past tense thing, its is DONE already, reconciled to God and we have NOW received the Atonement.

What else does the Bible teach about Justification?

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So this Scripture tells us that it is a FREE GIFT that brings us Justification. Can a Gift be Free it one needs to Work to attain or keep it? Justification is Free to all, because of Christs Blood, THAT is Scripture.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So this Scripture tells us plainly that no one shall be Justified in His Sight by deeds of the Law, aka by Works. Therefore we can know without a doubt that there is absolutely nothing we can do, no "Good Works" that Justify us before God. Justification = Salvation in case you dont recognize this. So no "Good Works" can bring or keep our Salvation.

In your False Ideal/Doctrine, you are essentially saying that people and yourself are Justified by YOUR "Good Works" by performing Deeds of the Law, however that goes directly against Scripture.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What do these Scriptures tell us about Justification? First off how is one considered Righteous? Is it by something of ourselves, our works? According to these Scriptures our Righteousness isnt found in us, its found in Faith of Jesus Christ to those that believe.

How can we think that our Works bring or Keep our Salvation/Justification when our Righteousness is only found in Faith in Christ to those that believe?

The Scriptures then go on to declare that we are Justified FREELY by His Grace, thru the Redemption that is Christ Jesus. Do we see Works anywhere found in that? I dont think so, and in fact is there even the possibility to have Grace if Works are included into the mix?

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is impossible to mix Faith and Grace for Justification unto Salvation, and whether you or anyone else that believes they can lose their Salvation, you all are trying to be Justified by the Law and clearly Scripture tells us that we CAN NOT be Saved/Justified by our or any Works. To think, teach or believe that means that Christ has become of no effect to you and you have fallen from Grace.

Furthermore returning back to Romans, is our propitiation (Our Standing with God being Appeased) because of our Works or not? According to Scripture it is because of Christs Blood and Faith in it, so how can we insist that our Works have anything to do with our Justification?

So according to Scripture who Justifies us and why? Verse 26 declares that it is God who does the Justifying and He Justifies us when we believe in Jesus Christ. Do we see works recorded anywhere in these verses? No because our Works have nothing to do with our Justification before God for Salvation.

And finally what does Paul conclude concerning Works and Justification? That a man is Justified by Faith WITHOUT the Deeds of the Law aka Works.

Do you need more Scriptures that speak on our Justification? Because THAT is what we are speaking about, our Justification before God, is it FAITH or WORKS?

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Here again Paul makes it clear there is a difference between Grace and Works, and that it is impossible to be Justified by Works and still have Grace. Once you add Works to Grace, Grace goes away and it is Debt. Him that Work doesnt receive a reward of Grace. How was Abraham the founder of the Faith Justified? By Grace thru Faith and Belief or Works? According to Scripture it is because he BELIEVED and therefore was found Righteous, his Works Justified nothing before God.

He who Works doesnt get Grace, that is Scripture, over and over, but believing on Him who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, the one who believes on Him, their Faith is counted for Righteousness.

More Scriptures?

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

How are we Justified again? Is it by Works? Nope it is by Faith we are Justified before God for Salvation. I dont know how many more Scriptures you would like me to quote concerning how Justification before God is found. I dont know how many more Scripture you would like me to quote that show that Grace and Works for Salvation dont mix, that adding Works into the Grace of God literally causes you to lose the Promises, lose Christ and everything He has done for you.

But you refuse to take all of this into account when you read all your Proof Texts you are using, and thus improperly interpret them. Scripture needs to read in light of Scripture, so if Scripture blatantly says over and over that we are Justified by Faith ALONE, then we need to interpret any Scripture that speaks of Works in that light.

Salvation was given to us by Faith, it is secured to us by Faith and let us remember exactly where that Faith came from if you want to say well someone can lose Faith and then fall away. Well where did that Faith come from again?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Well it looks like God is the one who gives us our Faith to begin with, yet you would like to tell others that God will take away the Faith He gave us, that brought us to Salvation and Justification before Him?

I dont believe God works like that at all. In fact Paul never speaks of a God that takes these things back, he writes many Scriptures to assure us of exactly the opposite thing.

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

At one time we were all those things listed, however by Faith in Christ what does Paul tell us we now are? We are Washed, we are Sanctified and we are Justified in the name of Jesus. And according to Scripture how long does it last and from when was it known?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So according to this those who are Justified by Faith in Christ were known before the foundation of the World and therefore they will endure UNTIL THE END, because it is God, not me or you, who Justifies us by Faith in Christ.

Need more Scriptures about where our Justification comes from?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are not Justified by Works, but by Faith in Christ and no man ever has or ever will be Justified by Works, ever. That means all of you Works Based Salvationists are completely and willfully ignorant of how Justification is merited out. Nothing you do can change your standing before God, whether that is prior or after being Born Again, because your Justification is not measured by your Works.

I really dont think you who believe you can Lose your Salvation even comprehend the Freedom that is in Christ. Do you not recognize that you are literally Free to do ANYTHING you want? Nothing you do affects your position with God in terms of Salvation period. Dont believe me? Look what Paul says:

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Have you studied Freedom and the impact of this verse on your life? Jesus makes you Free and therefore you are Free indeed, that really is the Truth, yet many people cant accept it. If you think you can Lose Salvation or are trying to add Works to keep your Salvation then you truly have yet to understand the depths of the Freedom Christ has given us. You are literally Free to do anything you want, now this doesnt mean you should or ought to, many thing are NOT good for you, however you are completely and totally Free to do them without worries of your Position of Righteousness and Justification before God. That is what Freedom means and Paul states ALL THINGS, not some, not most but ALL THINGS are Lawful for him.

That means he literally can do anything he wants at anytime, and he speaks this way because he understands that 1) Christ has given him complete and total Freedom 2) That his merit, Justification and Righteous Position before the Lord doesnt depend on him, its 100% dependent on Christ and Christ Alone and Faith in Him. He prefaces the fact that he is completely free to do literally anything he wants by saying not all things are expedient or edify, but just because they are not expedient or edify mean that he is NOT Free to do them.

Only someone who is secure and understands where his Righteousness, his Justification comes from could ever make a statement that he can do anything he wants. Look at most of you on here, yall want to say if you do this or that you jeopardize your Salvation, Paul says eh, I can do ANYTHING because I am Free and none of it affects my Positional Righteousness and Justification before God, why? Because none of that is dependent on me, its all on Christ...

Is that really what Paul thought? That nothing he did affects his standing with God in terms of Salvation and Justification? Any more Scriptures about it?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

All of you saying that you can Lose your Salvation, or keep saying you need to do Works to maintain it, all of you are the same as the foolish Galatians, and what does Paul write to them concerning this?

Did you receive the Spirit by Works or by Faith? Are you all going to be so foolish to think that what you began in the Spirit is perfected or maintained by your Flesh?

What he is asking them is, were you Born Again by Works or by believing in the Gospel by Faith? The answer of course is that they were heathens that had nothing good to offer God and that they were Born Again, Justified by Faith when they heard the Gospel.

So Lisa and others, were you Born Again by Works or by believing the Gospel by Faith?

Do you now think that you are going to be able to maintain, keep or help out your Salvation by Works of your Flesh? Are you that foolish to believe that which was started by the Spirit is kept or finished by your Flesh?

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

You, me, nor anyone else is Justified by the Law, by Works, the Just, aka the ones Justified are Justified and live by what? Works? Nope, by Faith.

I can write even more with many more verses if you would like but my point is clearly made. We never have or ever will be Justified by our Works, it was impossible for us to have any Works that could attain it, and it is just as impossible to have any Works that can maintain or keep our Salvation and Justification before God.

We are Justified by Faith and in even that it is something God has given us.

Grace and Works for Justification do not mix, ever, to claim so, which is the actual position of every single person who believes they can Lose their Salvation or need to do this or that to keep their Salvation, makes Christ of NO EFFECT to you or them, all of you have fallen from Grace.

Is this emotionless enough for you Lisa? Was there enough Scripture quoted?

I know you will continue to ignore all of this and refuse to understand Scripture correctly because whatever part of you want to keep believing that you have a hand in your Salvation, but you dont. Jesus Christ made you Free, and with that Freedom is the fact that you no longer can do anything that would ever affect your Salvation.

If you are Born Again Christ did it all, however if you havent had that Saving Grace Experience then you are Lost and of course Lost people who claim to be Christians but arent, they look like they fall away from the Faith to outsiders, but they never were saved. John tells us about them:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If they were of them then they would have NO DOUBT continued with them, but they went out to be shown that they were not all of them. That is literally what the position of myself and every other person that accepts the Truth concerning Justification and the impossibility believe. If you are saved then you are forever saved, if you are not and walk away, well you really werent saved, just like these people John is writing about here.

Good News is Jesus Christ did it all for you, why not accept it?

He said not everyone that calls Him Lord, Lord, will be saved and you know it.

 

[bible_student]

Revelation
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of "Fire". This is the second death.

 

[Thunderian]

The spilt Blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins is valid for all who repent of wickedness and begin to live righteously according to conscience.

Even if they don't believe that Jesus died for their sins?

 

[TokiEl]

Lets be real Lisa, we have discussed this in length in the past and I have quoted dozens of Scriptures to back up my point. In fact even in this post I quoted multiple Scriptures.

In the end it comes down to how is one Justified for Salvation, is it Works or is it Faith?

Justification vs Sanctification, which for some reason those who adhere to their Works Based Salvation Doctrines, such as losing your Salvation, refuse to comprehend properly. So how are we Justified before God?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

According to this verse, while we were Sinner (aka in no position to receive or partake in what is needed to attain Salvation) Christ died for us, and THEN because of Christs Blood we NOW are Justified and Saved.

Do you see any works here?

Do you see the the Saviour's words here ?

Luke 13 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Or are you too preoccupied with picking Paul ?


Who is your Lord ?

 

[Daciple]

He said not everyone that calls Him Lord, Lord, will be saved and you know it.

And you clearly skipped over what I wrote concerning that huh?

That is an outright lie, Jesus will tell NO TRUE CHRISTIANS to go away, ever. You fall back on this verse all the time but I dont think you ever take into consideration the CONTEXT of to whom and when Jesus said it:

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In Context what exactly was Jesus teaching about RIGHT BEFORE talking about not knowing them? What does He describe them as doing?

THAT is who is talking about not ever knowing, you however refuse to see IN CONTEXT what Jesus is speaking about and want to apply this to all Christians telling them if they dont do this or that, or if they do this or that then Jesus will say I dont know you. That is WRONG period.

In Context Jesus is speaking of FALSE PROPHETS, and how many FALSE PROPHETS come to others and proclaim how they are Prophesying and say they do it in the name of the Lord? How many FALSE PROPHETS declare to cast out devils in the name of Jesus? How many FALSE PROPHETS declare that they have done wonderful works in the name of Jesus?

Jesus is absolutely describing FALSE PROPHETS and FALSE TEACHERS and FALSE CHRISTS, I mean we have a member on this forum that outright is following the exact thing Jesus said watch out for, this JahTruth liar, this man proclaims he is Christ, he proclaims he is a Prophet, this man claims to do great deed in Christs name, however I am 100% positive that the day he meets the real Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ will tell him that He doesnt know him.

THAT is who Jesus is talking about, not your average Christian, not people like me and you who believe on Him by Faith thru Grace, you twist Scripture to try and convince yourself and others that somehow WORKS have a place in Salvation and they do not.

People like Benny Hinn who have great followings, who say that they are casting out demons in Jesus name, that say they are doing great works in the name of Christ, THEY are the ones that Jesus will be saying, I dont know you, and THAT is the warning Jesus is giving it is about FALSE PROPHETS. I would suggest you stop twisting Scriptures in this aspect and stop saying Christians are going to hear that from Jesus, they are not, not if they have been Born Again. False Prophets (and False Converts) are the ones that are going to hear it...

If you missed it in there, it is people like your False Prophet who are going to hear Jesus say I do not know you, THAT is the Context Jesus is speaking about in that verse. Better tell your False Prophet to Repent...

 

[TokiEl]

Even if they don't believe that Jesus died for their sins?

Luke 24 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Jesus Christ spilt His blood so that all who repent from wickedness and start to live righteously are forgiven their sins.

It's truly in vain to believe in Jesus Christ and not repent and begin live righteously !

 

[Thunderian]

It's truly in vain to believe in Jesus Christ and not repent and begin live righteously !

But people who don't know Jesus get in by being good?

 

[TokiEl]

But people who don't know Jesus get in by being good?

God spilt His own Blood for all who repent of evil and begin to do good.


But without knowing Jesus there might not be an inclination to repent. And that's why it's so important to tell about Him and what He did and what He said. So people will repent and be baptised in His name and receive the Helper who will help change them to sons of God.

 

[Thunderian]

God spilt His own Blood for all who repent of evil and begin to do good.

Your refusal -- three times -- to give a straight answer to a straight question says all anyone needs to know about who you serve. No spokesperson for Jesus Christ would be such a snake.

 

[TokiEl]

Your refusal -- three times -- to give a straight answer to a straight question says all anyone needs to know about who you serve. No spokesperson for Jesus Christ would be such a snake.

Says one who thinks premeditated murder will be forgiven for just believing in Jesus Christ ?

You believe in a false grace by faith only gospel which is so pop with the churches today where the pastors say you are all sinners and you all agree... but since you believe in Jesus Christ that doesn't matter for you are all going in the rapture up to Jesus forever and ever...

I can call you hypocrites but it will be much more effectful when Jesus calls you that !

 

[TokiEl]

A warning to the modern pharisee christian hypocrites !

 

[Daciple]

Do you see the the Saviour's words here ?

Luke 13 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Or are you too preoccupied with picking Paul ?


Who is your Lord ?

Again you take it out of context just like you do the Lord Lord verses in Matt 7, because you can not properly interpret Scripture whatsoever bro.

Luke 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So what exactly is Jesus talking about IN CONTEXT? So first off he is speaking to the JEWS, and what is one of the main things JEWS believed about themselves?

That because they were Racially Related to Abraham that THEY would inherit the Kingdom for themselves. So you take one part of a Parable, rip it out of context and try and make it fully stand alone. Now I would say without a doubt that one verse has merit alone, we do strive to enter the straight gate, but what is the straight gate man?

You think its Works Related, but Jesus Christ Himself tells us differently:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus is the Way, Jesus is the Door, Jesus is the Straight Gate, the Narrow Way and there are few that find Him:

Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So what Jesus is teaching the Jews is they need to find HIM, because what THEY think is because they are JEWS they will be at the table, Jesus taught in their streets, they were in His Presence however what does Jesus tell them?

He doesnt know them, because they didnt want Him and they are going to be surprised when the Master comes, Jesus, and they are shut out, because they believed that because they are JEWS and they did WORKS that they would get in. That is why Jesus says there will be gnashing of teeth when Abraham Issac and Jacob (the Patriarchs of the JEWS) and THEY, the JEWS are cast out.

Jesus is telling them literally the OPPOSITE of what you want to make that verse about, when we put it back in context, the JEWS believed because of their Race and their Works of the Law they were Justified, Jesus say no, you must find the Straight Gate and the Narrow Way, I AM THE WAY, I AM THE GATE, if you dont find ME then you are going to be cast out.

Then He ends the statement saying the Last shall be First and the First shall be Last, so what that means is the Gentiles who believed by Faith easily are going and are the First ones that entered the Kingdom, because they BELIEVED and were not relying on Works or Race, and that the JEWS who were given the OPPORTUNITY to enter the Kingdom First will be ushered in LAST because they rejected Him.

Of course you dont want to read and interpret this in its Context because when you do, just like with the other verses, it doesnt say anything you would want it to say. Jesus is literally telling the Jews find Him, believe in Him, strive to get to Him, because if you dont you are going to be surprised that things you thought would usher you into the Kingdom, your Race and following the Law aka Works didnt get you in and you are going to be shut out.

Also you really think that Paul and Jesus are at odds man?

I see your ridiculous responses to people and now including myself about Red Letters, and tests and following Paul vs Jesus, if YOU would actually understand Scriptures YOU would realize that the Red Letters and every other letter in the Bible are equal, because they ALL come from God.

Paul never contradicted Jesus and to follow what Paul teaches is to follow what Jesus taught unless of course you are going to join the likes of Todd and claim Paul wasnt an Apostle ect.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Either Paul received the Gospel he preached directly from Jesus Himself or he is a liar and you need to throw away every book he ever wrote. I hope you dont go down the path of Todd and throw away the Word of God given to us by Paul to uphold your False Doctrines...

 

[bible_student]

And you clearly skipped over what I wrote concerning that huh?

What you wrote concerning it?
He says exactly what He means and He means exactly what He says.

If you missed it in there, it is people like your False Prophet who are going to hear Jesus say I do not know you, THAT is the Context Jesus is speaking about in that verse. Better tell your False Prophet to Repent...

You are wrong, but you are also going off topic.

Here are the verses in context -

Matthew
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; ONLY he that doeth the Will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work inequity.
7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a Rock (the Truth):
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a Rock (the Truth).
7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
- King of kings' bible