Should Christians return to the Law of Moses?

[phipps]

There were two laws given to Moses on Mount Sinai. He received both law of God and a precise set of instructions for the sacrificial system. These were to form the basis of the religious ceremonies of the Israelites.

Both sets of instructions were called the law, but they were different in that the law of Ten Commandments defined what sin was, whereas the ceremonial law contained the solution to the sin problem. God wrote the Ten Commandments, and Moses wrote the ceremonial law, or book of the law.

The Law of Ten Commandments

"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God" (Exodus 31:18).

"And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables" (Exodus 32:16).

When Moses returned from meeting with God on Sinai he found that the Israelites had made for themselves a golden calf to worship. Moses was so angry that he broke the tablets of stone. Then God said to him, “Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark” (Deuteronomy 10:1-2).

When Moses broke the first tablets, it symbolized the law of God that had been broken by God’s people when they served the golden calf. The law did not change as a result of the people’s sin. Rather, God wrote the law again onto the new tables of stone that Moses fashioned, symbolizing that we have to be co-workers together with God in upholding His law. Only in God’s strength can we uphold the law, but we must cooperate with Him in this regard.

The two tables of stone were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant.


The Ceremonial Law

This law of types and ceremonies was written by Moses in the book of the law, and was placed beside the Ark.
"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deuteronomy 31:24-26 emphasis added).

These two sets of laws, the one moral and the other ceremonial, were thus entirely different and served different purposes.


Wasn’t the Law Nailed to the Cross?

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).

Does this verse mean that we no longer need to follow the ceremonial law and the law of Ten Commandments? This verse refers to only one law: the law that was against us, that showed us our transgressions. This was not the Ten Commandments, but the ceremonial law. When Christ died, he satisfied the demands of justice in the law of ceremonies and blotted it out.

Christ fulfilled the obligations of the ceremonial law by becoming the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. He fulfilled the obligation of the law of Ten Commandments by His perfect obedience to its precepts. After His death, the law of ceremonies was discontinued because it foreshadowed the cross, but the law of Ten Commandments did not change, nor was it done away with. The same law is still to be found in the New Testament and those who follow Christ must continue to live by this law.

 

[Yahda]

I don’t know about Christians, but I do know that the people and descendants of the book, (Torah) are to follow the Laws of the Lord our God.

According to the WORDS OF GOD: Deuteronomy 6:4 Listen Israel...You must Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength. These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as a reminder on your hand, for head, on your door post, gates.....(also Deuteronomy 10:12-13 & 11:19)

1st King:2 I am about to go the way of all the earth,” he said. “So be strong, act like a man, and observe what the Lord your God requires: Walk in obedience to him, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and regulations, as written in the Law of Moses. Do this so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go 4and that the Lord may keep his promise to me: ‘If your descendants watch how they live, and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a successor on the throne of Israel.’

Proverbs 1: My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

2For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

3Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

4So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Jeremiah 9:13 and the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; 14But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them: 15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. 16I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Jeremiah 26:4 and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, 5To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened; 6Then will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 20:13But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them

Daniel 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him

( the second to last thing God told his people, last thing being he would send ELIJAH the prophet, is as follows)

Malachi 4:4 4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel to obey, with the statutes and judgments.

Proverbs 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.

So I guess the question is: who do you follow and whos words do you trust and believe in ?

 

[Karlysymon]

Do you guys remember this?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Living_Biblically
In the book, Jacobs discusses biblical rules, both the obscure and the well-known, and tries to follow them as literally as possible. He even attempts to stone an adulterer and to offer animal sacrifice. He also goes to visit numerous religious groups in order to show their particular views on the Bible, as well as their methods of worship.

 

[phipps]

Do the Old Testament Dietary Laws Still Apply?

God is concerned with everything to do with us including our health.

“Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

God created us and gave us rules on how to stay healthy. The apostle Paul wrote: “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). These words reveal that the proper care of our body is not only a spiritual obligation but a moral requirement. Even though we have control of our bodies, they do not really belong to us. We are only stewards of someone else’s property.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-original-diet-of-mankind-and-the-old-testament-dietary-laws-do-they-still-apply.4467/

 

[Todd]

I like the way you worded that last part, insinuating your belief that the Qur'an isn't the Word of God...but it's ok ill roll with it
.

I actually have quite a bit of sympathy (for lack of a better term) for Muhammad. I can see why he was disillusioned with both Christianity and Judaism in his day. Most of his arguments and statements (at least according to my admittedly limited understanding of the Quran) against Christian orthodox beliefs are decidedly against Pauline specific Christian orthodoxy.

Other than the specific lack of testimony or dispute about the resurrection I think Mohammed did not have near as much disagreement with the doctrines and beliefs of “The Way” as he did with Pauline Christianity.

That is why I tend to think the Quran verse you quoted is more likely to refer to “The Way” then Pauline Christianity.

You are correct though. I don’t view the Quran as authoritative as the words of Jesus. Just like Paul’s writings I see the wisdom of a man who had genuine conviction and faith in God. I just don’t agree that everything Paul or Muhammad wrote is the word of God.

God specifically told Moses that he would one day raise up a single prophet who would speak directly the words of God and that was Yeshua the Messiah.

Is there wisdom in Paul’s writing? Yes
Is there wisdom in Muhammad’s writing? Also yes.
But when any conclusion made from either contradicts the words spoken by Jesus himself, i cannot accept it.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I actually have quite a bit of sympathy (for lack of a better term) for Muhammad. I can see why he was disillusioned with both Christianity and Judaism in his day. Most of his arguments and statements (at least according to my admittedly limited understanding of the Quran) against Christian orthodox beliefs are decidedly against Pauline specific Christian orthodoxy.

Other than the specific lack of testimony or dispute about the resurrection I think Mohammed did not have near as much disagreement with the doctrines and beliefs of “The Way” as he did with Pauline Christianity.

That is why I tend to think the Quran verse you quoted is more likely to refer to “The Way” then Pauline Christianity.

You are correct though. I don’t view the Quran as authoritative as the words of Jesus. Just like Paul’s writings I see the wisdom of a man who had genuine conviction and faith in God. I just don’t agree that everything Paul or Muhammad wrote is the word of God.

God specifically told Moses that he would one day raise up a single prophet who would speak directly the words of God and that was Yeshua the Messiah.

Is there wisdom in Paul’s writing? Yes
Is there wisdom in Muhammad’s writing? Also yes.
But when any conclusion made from either contradicts the words spoken by Jesus himself, i cannot accept it.

I must admit I don't know a great deal about 'The way' you speak of. If you have some material in the form of apocryphal gospels/epistles then link me and i'll check them out.

I think what you're overlooking is the fact that we posses different metaphysical levels which correspond to different systems/teachings.
For example even in the Quran chapter 18 we are told the story of Moses and Khidr AS. Long story short, Khidr comes from a very taoistic type philosophy which Moses cannot understand. Moses comes from logic, whereas Khidr comes from higher wisdom.
Islam is most def the one that combines the diversity of the old and new testaments and makes an allowance for both. Eg 'an eye for an eye, but forgiveness is better'. The latter, follows a stage of faith known as Ihsan which is even higher than Islam (submission eg the Law/works).
So what you see as a contradiction is not a contradiction in my books esp when you add the extra contexts. Eg Jesus spoke specifically to the Jews, the 'lost sheep of israel' but the gospel was to be preached to the whole world.
I do not think the rest of the world was supposed to follow the Mosaic Law, that was unique to those people.

I also believe in mythological truth alongside logical truth. That's to say, people worship according to the extent of their intellectual capacity which is very limited. if humans are around 1000 years from now, they'll view our time as primitive. Our current understanding of biology ,neuroscience and even psychology along with astronomy/physics is nothing yet. The type of laws/truths given in the old testament esp the Torah (eg Genesis) were essentially the higher wisdom of that time. Actually, Genesis 1 is grossly misunderstood as it really refers to our metaphysical descent, not our physical descent...eg the 'waters' in the beginning refers to the primordial ocean, the watery abyss...the universal consciousness (the Image/logos/son).
The point here is, what you perceive as a contradiction in my view isn't. It is important to be able to see beyond those apparent differences and basically just 'get the damn point of it all'.

Paul's teachings carry the same message of 'ihsan', God-consciousness. Eg 'to the pure all things are pure'.
To say it is just 'wisdom' and 'contradicts Jesus' is to grossly misunderstand it. Paul was obv no dummy, he was a pharisee, he was hellenised, he understood the larger picture.

Now to me, the fact Paul's epistles dominate the new testament outside of the 4 Gospels, is proof that the Pauline epistles shaped christianity from the early period. To me, it means God was with him. In the minds of many muslims of low intellect, it means satan had power over God from the get go.

"God specifically told Moses that he would one day raise up a single prophet who would speak directly the words of God and that was Yeshua the Messiah. "

Deuteronomy 18:18
ok in islam, there are 2 terms, one is Nabi and the other is Rasul. A Nabi is a prophet, a Rasul is a messenger AND a prophet.
Rasul's are game changers, eg Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad..they brought a system with them.
The nabi's like David, Solomon, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel, John the Baptist etc..they followed the system given by a previous Rasul.
You with me?

Actually the term nabi is also in hebrew, i just checked out the transliteration of Deuteronomy 18:18
18:18 NBY'a 'aQYM LHM MQUrB 'aChYHM KMVK VNThThY DBUrY BPhYV VDBUr 'aLYHM 'aTh KL-'aShUr 'aTShVNV.

The game changer here is that it does say
I will raise up for them a prophet like you
obv here i am actually using the muslim understanding of who Moses was, he was a Rasul..so 'like you' would mean God would raise another Rasul. The other word used in this verse is 'ummati' which is translated as 'brethren' but the word ummati is also arabic and means 'belonging to the nation' so yeh I have no problem accepting this as a reference to Jesus AS esp because it is already assined to him in the book of Acts.

However, nowhere did it say 'single' prophet so I have to question either your honesty or your integrity in using that word. No offense, you are wrong. also, in the context of Deuteronmy 18:18 it was essentially an israelite matter and doesn't rule out the idea of a rasul/messenger or indeed a prophet coming from gentiles.
Jesus never ruled out that idea nor did he ever outright proclaim himself as the finality of prophethood and scripture.

Don't forget when God made the promise for Isaac in Genesis, God also acknowledged Ismael and promised to make him a great nation, raise 12 princes from him etc. This was obviously never fulfilled in any pre-islamic era. Had it done, the world would know about it. When God made those promises, they were world altering.
You only need to consider how vast the 4 beasts of Daniel were...and their only relevance was Jerusalem in the temple era...and all of that is only of small relevance in the greater story of Israel and God's promise concerning Isaac. If that's the case, then you can rest assured the promise God made for Ismael would also make global waves in a manner that would have to surpass the 4 beasts of Daniel. The only time in history that's been true for ismaelites has come about through prophet Mohammad.
Furthermore, it makes perfect sense it would happen after Jesus has been since in isaiah 42 we see that Jesus was a 'light for the gentiles' which effectively passed the torch to gentiles and closed the door for prophethood for jews.
In the very same chapter it goes on to tell us about the 'new song' and talks about the wilderness, kedar in verses that deal with idolatory.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+42&version=NIV

THEN God concludes
You have seen many things, but you pay no attention;
your ears are open, but you do not listen.”

since this is a condemnation of jews, it is obviously in a pre-second coming of Jesus context too. So it would have to have occured after Jesus ascended and before he descends.
of course thus far it fits perfectly with islam.
Think about how the prophet Mohammad saw began his mission in Mecca by rejecting idolatory, polythiesm and worshiping the One God..right to his victory in Mecca when he smashed 360 idols that were in the kaba..and then the expansion of islam in that entire region and beyond.
"But those who trust in idols,
who say to images, ‘You are our gods,’
will be turned back in utter shame."

in contrast, Christianity's growth in europe touched the intellectual elite like St Augustine. It grew through persecution over centuries.
13 The Lord will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.
14 “For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.

again remember these verses are then followed on by verses that condemn the jewish nation, hence their fulfillment is in a pre-second coming context.
In the first 10 verses which are about Jesus, they speak of Jesus as
He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
so it obviously doesnt refer to Jesus or Christianity
it makes sense it is about islam when you obviously acknowledge how islam spread by taking Sassanian and byzantine territories very fast.

Btw im not saying all this to convince you islam is the true religion, but in the wider context i'm doing it to make you question how well you understand the bible or pay attention to many things within it that obviously you and other christians have forgotten.

Just to give you further insight on how I approach things. In Genesis 16 it tells us about the well of water
14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
if you dwell deeper onto this. In the 40 years in the wilderness the israelites spent 38 years in a place called Kadesh

Numbers 13:26
[ Report on the Exploration ] They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.

Paran is the place where Ismael settled/grew up.
That place was Mecca and the Well of water is actually the zamzam water.

I could talk a lot about the zamzam water itself, the fact over a billion people have drunk that water over the period of islam and it is distributed all over the world daily.
i don't think any other water anywhere else compares in terms of the logistics in handling this water within the city of Mecca aswell as it's use during pilgrimage and how it is bottled and sent all over the world...and it's a source that's been around for 1500 years minimum (the islamic period) but obviously it is much older.
is that really the place the wandering israelites spent 38 yrs?

keep in mind here, most christians/jews have been told the real mt sinai was in the sinai pensunsula along with the 40 years in the wilderness..
even though Paul himself said Sinai was in arabia.
i'm cutting this short, i don't expect you to 'accept' what ive said, but how I understand things magnifies God's promises aswell as the events in Genesis.
the common christian perspective is dismissive and elusive, it doesn't really delve deeper or acknowledge much of it.

 

[DavidSon]

Interesting connections Aspiring Soul.

I hope this post wasn't overlooked in the discussion:

It's very hard to raise and provide for animals.
Try to raise a bunch of animals and sacrifice one of them each time you sin. I'm pretty sure you won't give in to sin as easily as believers in our time do. Instead of using that animal as sustenance/garments for all the hard work and time you've invested into them, you're going to sacrifice them because you were weak/foolish... nope, you'll try harder. People who have never worked the ground (for the animals food) or cared for livestock, couldn't understand because of what we happen to call WORK nowadays.

I believe there's an inherent desire to give back to the universe/God as a way of expressing our joy and sorrow. For people that were sustained by animals and food of the earth it makes sense to offer them to the creator in a spirit of thanksgiving. That's why the precepts state that the Israelites will give up unblemished livestock: it would be a false act to publicly offer something that's diseased and unwanted anyways. I think this also relates to making vows, which of the concept we hear the voice of God commenting on throughout scripture.

The theory of religion can be approached from the substantive and functional aspect; religious meaning and the function of religion in society. "Sacrafice" or sacra fice (latin- to make sacred) (the idea that the offerings are made holy) is within the roots of all ancient religions. Sacrificial worship was obviously an antediluvian practice, as we read that Noah built an alter and made burnt offerings after leaving the ark.

I think today we express the sentiment by sharing our earnings, like in donations and tithes. Giving up what we'd love to possess to someone in need is a wonderful way of honoring God. Giving our "time" is a simple way to acknowledge our thankfulness.

 

[Karlysymon]

Andy Stanley, who my mom likes and who is leading people astray by saying the Old Testament really doesn't matter anymore. Mom says he doesn't say that, but I see more evidence that he does and he really just gives motivational speeches or lifestyle advice with a little Scripture thrown in. False teachers do the same.

That is crazy. He is so different from his dad, Charles, whom i enjoy listening to. @elsbet posted
THIS about his Christmas eve service.

The disciples that Jesus spoke to in the flesh became known as the followers of "The Way". Paul could not be one of the disciples referred to in this verse as Paul never heard the words of Isa in the flesh.

Are you 100% sure of that? Paul was a contemporary of the disciples which automatically makes him a contemporary of Christ, unless you want to say he wasn't yet born while Christ was here. And if he was a contemporary, what makes you think he never made it into Christ's audience? If the teachers of the Law and the scribes found themselves in Christ's audience, what makes you think Paul never did. Also, do you suggest he was unaware of "all the things that have happened here in these days?"{On the road to Emmaus: Luke 24:18}. And if he was aware, was he unaffected? Acts 8:1 sems to suggest otherwise.

Just to widen the question a little then, what do people believe the purpose and the massage of the Law was/is?
I have my own view but I would be interested in how other people see things...

Part of the Mosaic Law had to do with the Sanctuary rituals. Now, in Exodus 25:9, as Moses was atop Sinai, he was instructed to make everything exactly as the pattern shown him. So the question is, when the sanctuary rituals ended here on earth, was the heavenly system dismantled aswell?

 

[Dalit]

That is crazy. He is so different from his dad, Charles, whom i enjoy listening to. @elsbet posted
THIS about his Christmas eve service.

Wow! That's just apostasy in the modern church. The "magic" of Christmas? Some guy parodying Bruno Mars on stage? What does that even have to do with Jesus? Yes, Andy is another in a series of sons that didn't hold to the faith of their fathers. That's all over the Bible, too, yet it reminds me of John Osteen, the father of Joel Osteen, who actually preached from the Bible.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Part of the Mosaic Law had to do with the Sanctuary rituals. Now, in Exodus 25:9, as Moses was atop Sinai, he was instructed to make everything exactly as the pattern shown him. So the question is, when the sanctuary rituals ended here on earth, was the heavenly system dismantled aswell?

What an interesting observation...

My question here is whether the reality of the situation is that the earthly sanctuary rituals were not an echo of heavenly truths, not heavenly rituals.

Imo - those truths were there before the tabernacle and remain true after the earthly sanctuary rituals ceased.

 

[Dalit]

Paul's teachings carry the same message of 'ihsan', God-consciousness. Eg 'to the pure all things are pure'.
To say it is just 'wisdom' and 'contradicts Jesus' is to grossly misunderstand it. Paul was obv no dummy, he was a pharisee, he was hellenised, he understood the larger picture.

This is interesting and I agree that Hellenization affected the church in its infancy so much that it's still around today. The American churches by and large are Hellenistic, even those Hebraic ones. Paul knew the Hebraic and he knew Hellenization or could navigate such as when he was able to reason with the Greeks in Acts 17:23 (NASB):
For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

Perhaps that's why Paul became "all things to all people".

Paul’s Use of His Freedom
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23 NIV).

 

[Todd]

Are you 100% sure of that? Paul was a contemporary of the disciples which automatically makes him a contemporary of Christ, unless you want to say he wasn't yet born while Christ was here. And if he was a contemporary, what makes you think he never made it into Christ's audience? If the teachers of the Law and the scribes found themselves in Christ's audience, what makes you think Paul never did. Also, do you suggest he was unaware of "all the things that have happened here in these days?"{On the road to Emmaus: Luke 24:18}. And if he was aware, was he unaffected? Acts 8:1 sems to suggest otherwise.

Yes of course it is possible that Paul could have been in the audience of Christ at some point. But Paul was never a disciple of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Also, while it is possible, it's highly unlikely that Paul had contact with Christ in the flesh, as he never mentions it once in any of his writings. Seems an odd thing to never mention if indeed it happened. Paul goes to great lengths to prove his apostleship and his past background in telling his story. A personal encounter in the flesh with Christ seems unlikely to leave out of this story.

Either way my point about the Quran verse that @AspiringSoul quoted remains. Isa (Jesus) never spoke to Paul in the flesh as one of his disciples.

 

[Karlysymon]

What an interesting observation...

My question here is whether the reality of the situation is that the earthly sanctuary rituals were not an echo of heavenly truths, not heavenly rituals.

Imo - those truths were there before the tabernacle and remain true after the earthly sanctuary rituals ceased.

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can [c]have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. 3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest...
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, [i]harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. (Hebrews 4:14-5:1-4, 7:26-28)

Yes of course it is possible that Paul could have been in the audience of Christ at some point. But Paul was never a disciple of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Also, while it is possible, it's highly unlikely that Paul had contact with Christ in the flesh, as he never mentions it once in any of his writings. Seems an odd thing to never mention if indeed it happened. Paul goes to great lengths to prove his apostleship and his past background in telling his story. A personal encounter in the flesh with Christ seems unlikely to leave out of this story.

Either way my point about the Quran verse that @AspiringSoul quoted remains. Isa (Jesus) never spoke to Paul in the flesh as one of his disciples.

I agree with you, that he likely never had a one on one with Christ like Nicodemus or Caiaphas and if he had, he would have mentioned it. So yes, he wasn’t a disciple “in the flesh”. Besides, how could he have been a disciple then turn around and persecute his fellow brethren? Given his background in persecuting the followers of The Way, he didn’t seem like an open-minded person so its safe to assume that Christ’s teachings wouldn’t have been of much interest to him, just like the scribes and priests were in His audience to pick on what He was teaching. Just as “a large number of priests became obedient to the faith” (Acts 6:7), Paul walked a different road to said faith. (Acts 9:13-16)

 

[Renegade]

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

James wrote an entire book about this, anyone care to list the torah regulations he refers to keeping here?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

James wrote an entire book about this, anyone care to list the torah regulations he refers to keeping here?

I think that the actions that were referred to were the practical demonstrations that someone's faith was real.

 

[Todd]

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

James wrote an entire book about this, anyone care to list the torah regulations he refers to keeping here?

Most likely the ones that Jesus summed up as "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself." The ten commandments would certainly apply. It appears to me that James is refereing to everything in the Torah that relates to loving God and loving your neighbor.

Are we justified by what food we eat? I don't believe so, as God gave the dietary laws for Israel's benefit. Jesus also confirmed that a man is not spirtually defiled by what goes in his mouth. The dietary laws have little to do with loving God or our neighbors. It was simply God giving them guidelines to better insure the survival of the Hebrew race.

Does that mean Christians should not observe the dietary laws? The conclusion I have come to is if someone is suffering health related issues but not following God's guidance, then you can't put your health issues on God. If you chose to ignore his dietary guidance all your life then you are the one taking a risk that your health may suffer. Of course common sense says that giving up Pork or shelfish is a waste of time, if you are eating alot of refined sugar and processed foods anyways.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Yes of course it is possible that Paul could have been in the audience of Christ at some point. But Paul was never a disciple of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Also, while it is possible, it's highly unlikely that Paul had contact with Christ in the flesh, as he never mentions it once in any of his writings. Seems an odd thing to never mention if indeed it happened. Paul goes to great lengths to prove his apostleship and his past background in telling his story. A personal encounter in the flesh with Christ seems unlikely to leave out of this story.

Either way my point about the Quran verse that @AspiringSoul quoted remains. Isa (Jesus) never spoke to Paul in the flesh as one of his disciples.

The verse I quoted, wasnt limited only to the disciples, it spoke of the disciples who believed in Jesus and then God told us He caused the 'believers' amongst the bani israel to become victorious (eg spiritually, in theology). So this is a post-Jesus contex. the way i see this, the early 'jewish' christian community..was authentic christianity..
and the leader of the pack was most def Paul.

(4) O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allah as said 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to the Hawariyyun (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?" The Hawariyyun (the disciples) said: "We are Allah's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious (uppermost).
(سورة الصف, As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse#14)

Paul himself was anti-christian and then became christian on the road to damascus, that marks that turning point eg the group who 'believed'...and that group then went in to become victorious (in theology/influence)...and again Paul was the leader of the pack.

 

[Todd]

The verse I quoted, wasnt limited only to the disciples, it spoke of the disciples who believed in Jesus and then God told us He caused the 'believers' amongst the bani israel to become victorious (eg spiritually, in theology). So this is a post-Jesus contex. the way i see this, the early 'jewish' christian community..was authentic christianity..
and the leader of the pack was most def Paul.

And that is where I disagree with your assessment. Paul was not the leader of the pack of the early jewish Christian Community in Jerusalem that was lead by the disciples of Jesus. The early believers in Jerusalem that were lead by the actual disciples of Jesus were referred to as followers of "The Way." They were considered a sect of the Hebrew Temple religion that believed that Jesus was the Messiah. This group is distinctly different than the converts of Paul in Antioch that were the first to be called "Christians". In fact the rivalry/contention between the two groups is clearly documented in the book of Acts and Paul's writings.

This is clearly stated in the Bible and requires no extra-biblical sources to discover.

 

[AspiringSoul]

And that is where I disagree with your assessment. Paul was not the leader of the pack of the early jewish Christian Community in Jerusalem that was lead by the disciples of Jesus. The early believers in Jerusalem that were lead by the actual disciples of Jesus were referred to as followers of "The Way." They were considered a sect of the Hebrew Temple religion that believed that Jesus was the Messiah. This group is distinctly different than the converts of Paul in Antioch that were the first to be called "Christians". In fact the rivalry/contention between the two groups is clearly documented in the book of Acts and Paul's writings.

This is clearly stated in the Bible and requires no extra-biblical sources to discover.

So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious (uppermost).
(سورة الصف, As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse#14)

Well Paul won that 'battle', if he lost his epistles wouldnt even be in the NT.
Keep in mind, i understand that you don't regard this quranic verse as an authority on the matter, im presenting how muslims 'should' see it.

 

[SnowFall]

As I was growing up and starting to take in the story of the Torah, I noticed that alongside the Law ran the sacrificial system. It seemed barbaric and unfair to me - why would God want people to do such a thing? Couldn't they just feel sorry about things and try harder next time?

View attachment 19662

Aside from the emphasising the importance of the observance of God's standards, what do you suppose were the significance / purpose of these sacrifices?

Well my belief is it started at Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit, at that moment they became responsible for sin, and so did their descendants the human race

The time of the sacrifice system was obviously before the time of The one true messiah Jesus Christ, meaning humans weren’t saved by his Grace yet, so God had a system of redemption for the people to be free from sin at that time and even though the people time and time again rebelled against God, he had mercy time and time again and excepted them back as his people, the wars that were fought were against people who worshipped false Gods and demons and even those people when Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins, they could not be found in hell, so my point is at the time the sacrifices made were to God for the people’s sins and to worship the one true God as he deserves, the animal sacrifices are just for he is the Creator and I do believe were done humanly

Does that answer your question?