Red Sky at Morning
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Extremely well - thank you @SnowFall
Should Christians return to the Law of Moses?
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Red Sky at Morning
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Brother ;-)No problem Brother/Sister
Jesus Christ made an end of the old sacrificial system as He was the sufficient sacrifice for sins.
Most Jews could not and still can't understand this. It was something entirely new. A way they and their fathers had not walked... and so most could not accept it. They had been observing the laws statutes and ordinances handed down to them from Moses for over a thousand years til this man came along who claimed to be sent from God but didn't even seem to respect the Sabbath... but it was his blasphemy making himself equal to God that got him killed.
Mark 14 60So the high priest stood up before them and questioned Jesus, “Have You no answer? What are these men testifying against You?”
61But Jesus remained silent and made no reply.
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? 64You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?”
And they all condemned Him as deserving of death.
And that was the Salvation plan of God since before the foundation of the world... to atone for our sins with His own blood. So sinners can repent and be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ and receive the free gift of the Holy spirit who will change us into His likeness. Holy.
Most Jews could not and still can't understand this. It was something entirely new. A way they and their fathers had not walked... and so most could not accept it. They had been observing the laws statutes and ordinances handed down to them from Moses for over a thousand years til this man came along who claimed to be sent from God but didn't even seem to respect the Sabbath... but it was his blasphemy making himself equal to God that got him killed.
Mark 14 60So the high priest stood up before them and questioned Jesus, “Have You no answer? What are these men testifying against You?”
61But Jesus remained silent and made no reply.
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? 64You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?”
And they all condemned Him as deserving of death.
And that was the Salvation plan of God since before the foundation of the world... to atone for our sins with His own blood. So sinners can repent and be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ and receive the free gift of the Holy spirit who will change us into His likeness. Holy.
KoncreteMind
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Should they? I'd say that imo, everyone should. Can they? I dont think so. To return to the Torah that would mean having to give up "Christ" as the Law of Moses makes no mention of a christ or man-messiah that people should put faith/worship into. If one is to do this, or to make God into being more than 1, then they are breaking the first commandment. It doesnt really matter who comes later and does/says different, the law of Moses was the standard to judge truth and lie...
KoncreteMind
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And according to the way their fathers (were supposed to have) walked, those that didnt follow, were right not to.
Deuteronomy 13
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
Deuteronomy 30
Jeshurun[c] grew fat and kicked; filled with food, they became heavy and sleek.
They abandoned the God who made them and rejected the Rock their Savior.
16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. 17 They sacrificed to false gods, which are not God, gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your ancestors did not fear.
Once it went from God being worshiped to God (and Jesus), then it became a sin to them to stop following what they were and switch it up to something else. The NT is a test to see whether people will follow God's commands in the OT, or follow the ones of the NT. Thats why it was written in Greek and not Hebrew...
That's right the Jews cannot believe in Jesus Christ !
But guess what God commanded them to wait for about 2000 years before they were to walk the new way of Jesus Christ.
There is a clue in the crossing of Jordan in Joshua 3 where the Israelites were to wait about 2000 cubits before they followed the Ark of the Covenant into the Promised land.
Joshua 3 Then Joshua rose early in the morning; and they set out from Acacia Grove and came to the Jordan, he and all the children of Israel, and lodged there before they crossed over. 2 So it was, after three days, that the officers went through the camp; 3 and they commanded the people, saying, “When you see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests, the Levites, bearing it, then you shall set out from your place and go after it. 4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure. Do not come near it, that you may know the way by which you must go, for you have not passed this way before.”
So the Jews cannot believe in Jesus Christ before about 2000 years after Jesus Christ when God pours out His Spirit on them !
Zechariah 12 10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
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phipps
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Rabbinic Curse
Quote 1
A Sage said: "May the curse of heaven fall upon those who calculate the date of the advent of the Messiah, and thus create political and social unrest among the people." Sanhedrin, 97b.
Louis Newman and Samuel Spitz, The Talmudic anthology: tales and teachings of the rabbis (Behrman House, 1945): 277. ISBN 0874413036, 9780874413038
Read this quote online
Quote 2
"What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be18 the bones of those who calculate the end.19 For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you.20 But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it.21 But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him."
Footnotes to the above:
18 [H] The verse is rendered, 'he will blast him who calculated the end.'
19 I.e., Messiah’s advent.
20 Isa. XXX, 18.
21 I.e., because we are not yet worthy of it.
22 Ibid.
"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online
Quote 3
Rabbis after the time of Christ have pronounced a curse on anyone who would attempt to calculate the dates of this chapter. - Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino ed., p. 659. Read this quote online
Quote 4
6. Furthermore, this passage deals primarily with Jesus — not with some “future Fuehrer,” to use Hal Lindsey’s term for the Antichrist. In fact, the prophecy points so unmistakably to the time of the MESSIAH’S COMING, and so directly foretold HIS DEATH, that in later centuries Jewish rabbis who did not accept Jesus DISCOURAGED its study and finally pronounced a CURSE on all who attempt to compute the time elements! 31
Footnote to the above:
31 See Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino edition, p. 659.
NOTE: All the capitalizations in the above quote are original with the author, and are reproduced for the sake of accuracy.
Howard A. Peth, 7 Mysteries Solved: 7 Issues that Touch the Heart of Mankind Second edition, Revised (California: Hart Books, 2002).
Quote 5
HAS MESSIAH COME?
by Avram Yehoshua
"A most amazing thing occurs in the ninth chapter of Daniel: we’re told when Messiah would come. But instead of explaining it to us, our Rabbis curse anyone wanting to find it out: ‘Rabbi Samuel b. Nachmani said in the name (of) Rabbi Jonathan: ‘Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end.’ (1) Some of our Rabbis, in a further attempt to keep us from Daniel, even state that Daniel was wrong. Alfred Edersheim, a Talmudic scholar who would come to know Messiah said, ‘later Rabbinism, which, naturally enough, could not find its way through the Messianic prophecies of the book, declared that even Daniel was mistaken’ (2) (emphasis added).
Footnotes to the above:
1 Sanford R. Howard, L’Chayim: Finding The Light of Shalom (Thorsby, AL: Sabbath House, Inc., 1999), p. 209. Sanhedrin 97b, vol. 2, p. 659, Soncino Press. Editorial footnote #6 says, ‘i.e., Messiah’s advent.’
2 Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), p. 957. Bereshith Rabba 98 (a midrash or commentary on Genesis). Edersheim lived from 1825 to 1889 C.E.
Read this quote online
Quote 6
"Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds."
"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online.
Jesus and the The Talmud
In Judaism, the Talmud is called the "most holy." It is the sourcebook for Jews.
"On the eve of Passover, Jesus was hanged. For 40 days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned, because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retored; Do you suppose has was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government." (Sanhedrin 43a)
The scholars know that when you calculate the time of the Messiah, using Daniel 9 as the prophetic template, you come to one Messiah: Jesus Christ. But they rejected Him. The stone that was rejected turned out to be the capstone, the corner stone, the foundation. No other foundation can we have than that which is Christ Jesus, the Bible says. Israel rejected this Messiah that their own scriptures point to, and say, "Blasted be the ones if you try and calculate why he didn't come." This is Jewish Talmudic theology regarding the absence of the timely Messiah.
https://amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Header-Downloads-References-RabbinicCurse
Quote 1
A Sage said: "May the curse of heaven fall upon those who calculate the date of the advent of the Messiah, and thus create political and social unrest among the people." Sanhedrin, 97b.
Louis Newman and Samuel Spitz, The Talmudic anthology: tales and teachings of the rabbis (Behrman House, 1945): 277. ISBN 0874413036, 9780874413038
Read this quote online
Quote 2
"What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be18 the bones of those who calculate the end.19 For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you.20 But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it.21 But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him."
Footnotes to the above:
18 [H] The verse is rendered, 'he will blast him who calculated the end.'
19 I.e., Messiah’s advent.
20 Isa. XXX, 18.
21 I.e., because we are not yet worthy of it.
22 Ibid.
"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online
Quote 3
Rabbis after the time of Christ have pronounced a curse on anyone who would attempt to calculate the dates of this chapter. - Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino ed., p. 659. Read this quote online
Quote 4
6. Furthermore, this passage deals primarily with Jesus — not with some “future Fuehrer,” to use Hal Lindsey’s term for the Antichrist. In fact, the prophecy points so unmistakably to the time of the MESSIAH’S COMING, and so directly foretold HIS DEATH, that in later centuries Jewish rabbis who did not accept Jesus DISCOURAGED its study and finally pronounced a CURSE on all who attempt to compute the time elements! 31
Footnote to the above:
31 See Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino edition, p. 659.
NOTE: All the capitalizations in the above quote are original with the author, and are reproduced for the sake of accuracy.
Howard A. Peth, 7 Mysteries Solved: 7 Issues that Touch the Heart of Mankind Second edition, Revised (California: Hart Books, 2002).
Quote 5
HAS MESSIAH COME?
by Avram Yehoshua
"A most amazing thing occurs in the ninth chapter of Daniel: we’re told when Messiah would come. But instead of explaining it to us, our Rabbis curse anyone wanting to find it out: ‘Rabbi Samuel b. Nachmani said in the name (of) Rabbi Jonathan: ‘Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end.’ (1) Some of our Rabbis, in a further attempt to keep us from Daniel, even state that Daniel was wrong. Alfred Edersheim, a Talmudic scholar who would come to know Messiah said, ‘later Rabbinism, which, naturally enough, could not find its way through the Messianic prophecies of the book, declared that even Daniel was mistaken’ (2) (emphasis added).
Footnotes to the above:
1 Sanford R. Howard, L’Chayim: Finding The Light of Shalom (Thorsby, AL: Sabbath House, Inc., 1999), p. 209. Sanhedrin 97b, vol. 2, p. 659, Soncino Press. Editorial footnote #6 says, ‘i.e., Messiah’s advent.’
2 Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), p. 957. Bereshith Rabba 98 (a midrash or commentary on Genesis). Edersheim lived from 1825 to 1889 C.E.
Read this quote online
Quote 6
"Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds."
"Sanhedrin 97b," Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin. Read this quote online.
Jesus and the The Talmud
In Judaism, the Talmud is called the "most holy." It is the sourcebook for Jews.
"On the eve of Passover, Jesus was hanged. For 40 days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned, because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retored; Do you suppose has was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government." (Sanhedrin 43a)
The scholars know that when you calculate the time of the Messiah, using Daniel 9 as the prophetic template, you come to one Messiah: Jesus Christ. But they rejected Him. The stone that was rejected turned out to be the capstone, the corner stone, the foundation. No other foundation can we have than that which is Christ Jesus, the Bible says. Israel rejected this Messiah that their own scriptures point to, and say, "Blasted be the ones if you try and calculate why he didn't come." This is Jewish Talmudic theology regarding the absence of the timely Messiah.
https://amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Header-Downloads-References-RabbinicCurse
Karlysymon
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Until this thread, i hadn't realized how uncommon it is that Christ is portrayed as a High Priest and what that office entails. And if Christ is already officiating as our High Priest, where does that leave opinions such as THIS? (1:48-2:00 min mark)
Red Sky at Morning
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I agree - the Jews are still expecting their Messiah and will get an awful shock when the one they get is not the real deal (as echoed in the Feast of Antonement btw), likewise, the Jews might look to the third temple as some kind of fulfillment based on their reading of scripture yet completely miss the plot of who the true temple are - i.e. the church, the Body, you and I @Karlysymon
I think within a lot of Christian debate I have seen, there is an unfortunate pattern of the following logic:-
"If you don't agree with X (my view) then you must think Y (the view being portrayed unfavourably)"
Sometimes a person may disagree with X but have a Z opinion instead, or partly agree with X when W is taken into account ;-) My point in this tortured piece of mental algebra is that people hold views for a range of reasons, often based on their core doctrines.
What is it that annoyed you about Jonathan Cahn here? I would be interested in comparing perspectives...
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Karlysymon
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Let me put it this way…
I’ve always wondered at what was possibly going on in heaven in the time period from the Fall to Christ’s ascension because Moses was instructed to build the sanctuary after the pattern [furnishings] shown him. Obviously, as you are aware, the tabernacle had the two sections: Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. Christ couldn’t be a High Priest until his advent, death and ascencion (Hebrews), also keeping in mind that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”. To me, this can only mean (although iam speculating here) that from the Fall to the Ascension, the sacrifices at the temple/tabernacle, before God, sufficed for non-hebrews aswell and when Christ ascended, He ended the system here and carried on in the heavenly sanctuary pleading His blood for our sakes. In ending the system here, it means we cannot have two systems operating concurrently, moreso Christ’s priestly office being more superior and incorruptible than the Aaronic one (Malachi 1:6-10). By persisting with the latter, one in effect rejects the former because why would you need an earthly high priest when there’s already one in heaven, whose office meets your needs?
So your thread made me rethink what Cahn was talking about and what his position ultimately means. Inotherwords, those like Cahn, who insist that the rebuilding of the temple and the reinstitution of its rituals is prophetic (as in Christ is coming to reign out of Jerusalem and grace the temple) can only prove the truthfulness of their position by (re-)examining the priesthood of Christ. Like the earthly priests, at one point, Christ will conclude His duties and exit the Most Holy Place (Rev 15:5,8)/(Leviticus 16).
I understand that you believe it (rebuilding) not God-ordained/an act of rebellion but other Christians don’t and we all can’t be right. It also behooves us to find out what the truth really is about this issue because deception is rife and I think the answer lies in re-examining Christ’s role, as of right now, as a high priest. Only when you cover that up do the other positions take hold, it seems.
Ps: did I come across as annoyed in regard to Cahn? As for your tortured piece of mental algebra, iam guilty as charged and iam sorry.
Red Sky at Morning
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Interesting observations that I may have to ponder! In the meantime I was looking into a subject you might find interesting as well...Let me put it this way…
I’ve always wondered at what was possibly going on in heaven in the time period from the Fall to Christ’s ascension because Moses was instructed to build the sanctuary after the pattern [furnishings] shown him. Obviously, as you are aware, the tabernacle had the two sections: Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. Christ couldn’t be a High Priest until his advent, death and ascencion (Hebrews), also keeping in mind that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”. To me, this can only mean (although iam speculating here) that from the Fall to the Ascension, the sacrifices at the temple/tabernacle, before God, sufficed for non-hebrews aswell and when Christ ascended, He ended the system here and carried on in the heavenly sanctuary pleading His blood for our sakes. In ending the system here, it means we cannot have two systems operating concurrently, moreso Christ’s priestly office being more superior and incorruptible than the Aaronic one (Malachi 1:6-10). By persisting with the latter, one in effect rejects the former because why would you need an earthly high priest when there’s already one in heaven, whose office meets your needs?
So your thread made me rethink what Cahn was talking about and what his position ultimately means. Inotherwords, those like Cahn, who insist that the rebuilding of the temple and the reinstitution of its rituals is prophetic (as in Christ is coming to reign out of Jerusalem and grace the temple) can only prove the truthfulness of their position by (re-)examining the priesthood of Christ. Like the earthly priests, at one point, Christ will conclude His duties and exit the Most Holy Place (Rev 15:5,8)/(Leviticus 16).
I understand that you believe it (rebuilding) not God-ordained/an act of rebellion but other Christians don’t and we all can’t be right. It also behooves us to find out what the truth really is about this issue because deception is rife and I think the answer lies in re-examining Christ’s role, as of right now, as a high priest. Only when you cover that up do the other positions take hold, it seems.
Ps: did I come across as annoyed in regard to Cahn? As for your tortured piece of mental algebra, iam guilty as charged and iam sorry.
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/getting-tangled-in-hebrew-roots.5288/
Karlysymon
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Thanks! I'll go through it and get back to you, with commentary, if any!
phipps
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I talk about the heavenly sanctuary and Jesus' role in more detail here. The heavenly sanctuary is not taught in most of Christendom and a lot Christian Zionists would not be even thinking about an earthly temple if they understood that Jesus was in the heavenly temple reperesenting us as our high priest as you said. I hope many Christians here get to find out more about the heavenly sanctuary and what it represents.Let me put it this way…
I’ve always wondered at what was possibly going on in heaven in the time period from the Fall to Christ’s ascension because Moses was instructed to build the sanctuary after the pattern [furnishings] shown him. Obviously, as you are aware, the tabernacle had the two sections: Holy Place and the Most Holy Place. Christ couldn’t be a High Priest until his advent, death and ascencion (Hebrews), also keeping in mind that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”. To me, this can only mean (although iam speculating here) that from the Fall to the Ascension, the sacrifices at the temple/tabernacle, before God, sufficed for non-hebrews aswell and when Christ ascended, He ended the system here and carried on in the heavenly sanctuary pleading His blood for our sakes. In ending the system here, it means we cannot have two systems operating concurrently, moreso Christ’s priestly office being more superior and incorruptible than the Aaronic one (Malachi 1:6-10). By persisting with the latter, one in effect rejects the former because why would you need an earthly high priest when there’s already one in heaven, whose office meets your needs?
So your thread made me rethink what Cahn was talking about and what his position ultimately means. Inotherwords, those like Cahn, who insist that the rebuilding of the temple and the reinstitution of its rituals is prophetic (as in Christ is coming to reign out of Jerusalem and grace the temple) can only prove the truthfulness of their position by (re-)examining the priesthood of Christ. Like the earthly priests, at one point, Christ will conclude His duties and exit the Most Holy Place (Rev 15:5,8)/(Leviticus 16).
I understand that you believe it (rebuilding) not God-ordained/an act of rebellion but other Christians don’t and we all can’t be right. It also behooves us to find out what the truth really is about this issue because deception is rife and I think the answer lies in re-examining Christ’s role, as of right now, as a high priest. Only when you cover that up do the other positions take hold, it seems.
Ps: did I come across as annoyed in regard to Cahn? As for your tortured piece of mental algebra, iam guilty as charged and iam sorry.
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Karlysymon
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It a thorny subject because as I understand pre-trib/pre-mil, the sequence of events has to remain intact and if one of those events is wrong, the whole thing is rendered false. The events being: Israel has to exist as a nation, then have Jerusalem all to itself, then the temple gets built. So if its proven that the idea of a temple undermines God’s plans/authority, what does that say about the preceding events? Would God have anything to do with their transpiring? There’d be no need to politically support Israel and maintain its existence. Also, some Christians aren’t willing to examine their own eschatological pov because it might turn out to be biblically unsound but it’s also not an easy thing to do if it’s all one has ever believed. It wound unravel a gigantic web of lies, not just in the religious world but also in the secular (political) world.
Red Sky at Morning
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"So if its proven that the idea of a temple undermines God’s plans/authority, what does that say about the preceding events"
This question therefore hinges on the difference between Gods revealed will and his permissive will...
The book of Judges is full of examples, (some quite extreme!) of this contrast.
God is supporting Israel and that is sufficient... soon the Gog confederacy is about to rush headlong into God's right hand fist.
phipps
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Yes God is definitely supporting Israel and according to the Bible Israel is all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour and walk in His ways.
Peter who thought only Jews were worthy of the truth found out after God sent him a vision in Acts 10 that everyone is worthy of the truth regardless of who they are. He said this while preaching in Cornelius' house (a gentile), “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:34-35).
"For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God" (Romans 2:25-29).
“Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7).
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:28-29).
“For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,” (Philippians 3:3).
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here” (John 18:36).
The real “Israel of God” is not a country in the Middle East, but those who trust and follow Christ.
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KoncreteMind
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Again, according to Deuteronomy 13, God told them to reject the Jesus you tell them to worship. As in, He put it in their law, to reject the worship of Jesus. And I say that because He didnt present a "Jesus" for them to worship with Abraham, or Moses, or David, or Noah etc... So it makes no sense as to why He would later present them a "Jesus" to worship and get mad when they dont, when in the "old" testament, He complained that they would later worship do exactly that later..
The problem is that we cannot come to that conclusion, reading the old testament. We cant really come to alot of the conclusions christianity comes to using the old testament. I mean when you say "2000" years, whose time are we going by? Yours and the Romans? Or how the Hebrews told time? Because they're not the same. So if theres any prophecy mentioning "years" its not going by the what we call a "year" but what they called a "year".
I see what you're saying but Chapter 13 is specifically mentioning "other gods", ie. pagan deities from neighboring cultures. Traditional Christians, from what I've learned, believe in the God Yahweh but also believe (to varying degrees) that Jesus is directly tied into the Almighty and therefore can be prayed to, worshiped, etc. as the same entity. So in that sense I don't think Christians are necessarily following a "foreign" idol, more simply it's a revised concept of the OT God.