Christian Zionism Discussed

[Dale]

‘This Lines Up With Scripture’: Michele Bachmann’s Warnings About Biblical End-Times ‘Invasion’ and ‘Global Government’

Michele Bachmann is not a Christian. She is a member of/associated with a fake Christian cult- The New Apostolic Reformation.

Hungry for Power – The New Apostolic Reformation and Its Links to America’s Political Right

 

[Dale]

And? People disagree all the time, trump did what was right for Israel, why cry over it?

From the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis.

"The state of Israel contradicts the Jewish belief that the messiah will come and afterwards all the Jews will return to the Holy Land. They will go there under the messiah's leadership. See Isaiah Chapter 11 which begins with a description of the messiah, and then says (v. 12), "And He (i.e. Hashem) will lift up a banner to the nations, and He will gather in the scattered of Israel, and the diaspora of Yehudah He will gather from the four corners of the earth." See also Rambam Melachim 11:1, "The king the messiah will eventually arise and restore the kingship of the house of David to its former status, build the Temple and gather in the exiles of Israel."


"Lest you say that the Zionist enterprise is G-d's way of gathering the exiles, the Talmud says that we are forbidden to do this on our own. In Kesubos 111a it states that an oath was imposed on the Jewish people not to go up "as a wall" to Eretz Yisroel. This means that individual Jews are allowed to live there during exile, but a mass movement, and certainly a military conquest as happened in 1948 and 1967, is forbidden. G-d hides behind nature and the acts of man, but in this case we cannot say that this is G-d's ingathering since it was explicitly forbidden to us. Obviously the Jewish people is supposed to wait for G-d to do it in a supernatural way, or at least through an emmisary who is clearly a prophet and can tell us that the time has come.

There are two other oaths mentioned there that apply to the state of Israel. One is the oath against forcing or pre-empting the end of exile. The other is the oath against rebelling against the nations. We are supposed to be submissive and peaceful during exile, not wage wars."

 

[Serveto]

From the Orthodox Jewish Rabbis.

"The state of Israel contradicts the Jewish belief that the messiah will come and afterwards all the Jews will return to the Holy Land. They will go there under the messiah's leadership. See Isaiah Chapter 11 which begins with a description of the messiah, and then says (v. 12), "And He (i.e. Hashem) will lift up a banner to the nations, and He will gather in the scattered of Israel, and the diaspora of Yehudah He will gather from the four corners of the earth." See also Rambam Melachim 11:1, "The king the messiah will eventually arise and restore the kingship of the house of David to its former status, build the Temple and gather in the exiles of Israel."


"Lest you say that the Zionist enterprise is G-d's way of gathering the exiles, the Talmud says that we are forbidden to do this on our own. In Kesubos 111a it states that an oath was imposed on the Jewish people not to go up "as a wall" to Eretz Yisroel. This means that individual Jews are allowed to live there during exile, but a mass movement, and certainly a military conquest as happened in 1948 and 1967, is forbidden. G-d hides behind nature and the acts of man, but in this case we cannot say that this is G-d's ingathering since it was explicitly forbidden to us. Obviously the Jewish people is supposed to wait for G-d to do it in a supernatural way, or at least through an emmisary who is clearly a prophet and can tell us that the time has come.

There are two other oaths mentioned there that apply to the state of Israel. One is the oath against forcing or pre-empting the end of exile. The other is the oath against rebelling against the nations. We are supposed to be submissive and peaceful during exile, not wage wars."

Welcome to the forum @Dale.

What you post here is largely and essentially confirmed by my (insignificant) research, but, in a way, as I see it, it is also a sort of picture, frozen in past time, of the way things were. In response to the establishment of the State of Israel, plenty of Orthodox Jews, following, especially, Rav Kook's ideological lead (though he lived before the establishment), adapted, a characteristic of our species, including the most religious among us, by saying, in essence, that, though secular Israel is not the anticipated messianic Jewish commonwealth, it is a sort of precursor, an indication that the "birth pangs" of the messianic era are upon us. Many of these Orthodox Jews live in Israel, despite the historic, rabbinic ban on mass migration, referred to in your above post, some forming Gush Emunim, considered, by many, among the most radical of the so called "settler" movement, but they remain anti-secularZionist.

Recently, in Israel and beyond, there was some controversy over a book, entitled "Messiah's Donkey," written, apparently, by a pro-secular critic of Kook and his followers. I have only read about the book, and then briefly, but it seems to take issue with an idea, attributed to Kook, that Jewish secularists and atheists -I don't know if it includes, by implication if not outwardly stated, even Christian Zionist theists- are the beast of burden, the donkey, that the Jewish messiah is using to ride into Jerusalem, in what Kook and others view as fulfillment of the prophecy of Zecharia 9:9. I think it was to this idea that the savvy, staunchly secular political rival to Benjamin Netanyahu (and his colleagues on the Israeli religious far right), Yair Lapid, head of Israel's Yesh Atid party, referred when he reportedly and rather emphatically said: "We are not the Messiah's donkey."

 

[Serveto]

I've been pondering this unrelenting push by evangelical leaders, to portray Trump as some sort of messiah. Now that such words are falling from the lips of politicians, i am starting to think its all by design.

Since presidents are selected, his predecessors could have declared Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Timing is everything. Why Trump? Why was the declaration made in his first year? I think the men behind the curtain have some very dirty plans for the Middle East, and in their ranks are those who stand behind the pulpit, ready to sell think-tank policies as prophecies. The horrors/devastation will simply be passed off as the work of God, wrought by "His anoited". As usual, the "81% of evangelicals (a contested figure) who voted for Trump", have to get on board before any military campaigns are launched. So far, that group has already been baited with "Jerusalem" and "the new Cyrus".

I just now watched this, what I will call an uncompromising, hard-hitting "minority" or "dissident" Christian report in which many topics are discussed. Unlike some other Christians, this guy, Rick Wiles, isn't reading "Breaking Israel News" for information, but is identifying it as essentially a propaganda organ, a link in a chain which connects what he repeatedly and indelicately calls "Kabbalist wizards" and "Jewish Voodooists" with and to what he considers duped American Christians helping to build the Third Temple and usher in the usually unnamed "messiah."

At the 27 min mark, Mr. Wiles refers to the cooperation, political, financial and spiritual, between and among such preeminent people as his former employer, Pat Robertson (CBN), Paula White, one of President Trump's Evangelical advisers, John Hagee (CUFI) and Kabbalistic/Talmudic Jewish rabbis as a "Satanic alliance," which, in this report, he tries to expose as such. Included in the report, although only in passing, are references to the continuing influence of John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield. Although, apart from this program, I know nothing or little about Mr. Wiles himself, I post it as proof, though none be needed, that not all conservative Christians are singing Hosannas to President Trump as the "new Cyrus," and neither are they hoping to be handed a newly minted temple coin with his image on its face.

 

[Karlysymon]

I just now watched this, what I will call an uncompromising, hard-hitting "minority" or "dissident" Christian report in which many topics are discussed. Unlike some other Christians, this guy, Rick Wiles, isn't reading "Breaking Israel News" for information, but is identifying it as essentially a propaganda organ, a link in a chain which connects what he repeatedly and indelicately calls "Kabbalist wizards" and "Jewish Voodooists" with and to what he considers duped American Christians helping to build the Third Temple and usher in the usually unnamed "messiah."

At the 27 min mark, Mr. Wiles refers to the cooperation, political, financial and spiritual, between and among such preeminent people as his former employer, Pat Robertson (CBN), Paula White, one of President Trump's Evangelical advisers, John Hagee (CUFI) and Kabbalistic/Talmudic Jewish rabbis as a "Satanic alliance," which, in this report, he tries to expose as such. Included in the report, although only in passing, are references to the continuing influence of John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield. Although, apart from this program, I know nothing or little about Mr. Wiles himself, I post it as proof, though none be needed, that not all conservative Christians are singing Hosannas to President Trump as the "new Cyrus," and neither are they hoping to be handed a newly minted temple coin with his image on its face.

Iam watching now....will respond with commentary, if any, when iam done.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Iam watching now....will respond with commentary, if any, when iam done.

This puts me in mind of a passage from the Last Battle...

"Now, Monkey," said Rishda Tarkaan in a low voice. "Say the words that wiser heads have put into thy mouth. And hold up thy head." As he spoke he gave the Ape a little prod or kick from behind with the point of his toe.

"Do leave me alone," muttered Shift. But he sat up straighter and began, in a louder voice-

"Now listen, all of you. A terrible thing has happened. A wicked thing. The wickedest thing that ever was done in Narnia. And Aslan-"

"Tashlan, fool," whispered Rishda Tarkaan.

"Tashlan I mean, of course," said the Ape, "is very angry about it."

There was a terrible silence while the Beasts waited to hear what new trouble was in store for them. The little party by the end-wall of the stable also held their breath. What on earth was coming now?

"Yes," said the Ape. "At this very moment, when the Terrible One himself is among us—there in the stable just behind me—one wicked Beast has chosen to do what you'd think no one would dare to do even if He were a thousand miles away. It has dressed itself up in a lionskin and is wandering about in these very woods pretending to be Aslan."

Jill wondered for a moment if the Ape had gone mad. Was he going to tell the whole truth? A roar of horror and rage went up from the Beasts. "Grrr!" came the growls, "Who is he? Where is he? Just let me get my teeth into him!"

"It was seen last night," screamed the Ape, "but it got away. It's a donkey! A common, miserable Ass! If any of you see that Ass-"

"Grrr!" growled the Beasts. "We will, we will. He’d better keep out of our way."

Jill looked at the King: his mouth was open and his face was full of horror. And then she understood the devilish cunning of the enemies' plan. By mixing a little truth with it they had made their lie far stronger. What was the good, now, of telling the Beasts that an ass had been dressed up as a lion to deceive them? The Ape would only say, "That's just what I've said." What was the good of showing them Puzzle in his lionskin? They would only tear him in pieces.

"That’s taken the wind out of our sails," whispered Eustace. "The ground is taken from under our feet," said Tirian. "Curst, curst cleverness!" said Poggin. "I'll be sworn that this new lie is of Ginger's making."

 

[Karlysymon]

I just now watched this, what I will call an uncompromising, hard-hitting "minority" or "dissident" Christian report in which many topics are discussed. Unlike some other Christians, this guy, Rick Wiles, isn't reading "Breaking Israel News" for information, but is identifying it as essentially a propaganda organ, a link in a chain which connects what he repeatedly and indelicately calls "Kabbalist wizards" and "Jewish Voodooists" with and to what he considers duped American Christians helping to build the Third Temple and usher in the usually unnamed "messiah."

At the 27 min mark, Mr. Wiles refers to the cooperation, political, financial and spiritual, between and among such preeminent people as his former employer, Pat Robertson (CBN), Paula White, one of President Trump's Evangelical advisers, John Hagee (CUFI) and Kabbalistic/Talmudic Jewish rabbis as a "Satanic alliance," which, in this report, he tries to expose as such. Included in the report, although only in passing, are references to the continuing influence of John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield. Although, apart from this program, I know nothing or little about Mr. Wiles himself, I post it as proof, though none be needed, that not all conservative Christians are singing Hosannas to President Trump as the "new Cyrus," and neither are they hoping to be handed a newly minted temple coin with his image on its face.

And that's the problem, its foreign policy now and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.
Perry Stone is mentioned (10th mark) and i used to watch him alot, back in the day. A christian zionist, yes, but not as flamboyant as Hagee. I remember so well, how he talked about the Invasion of Iraq and how everything was prophetic, down to the date. I've tried looking for a video of that segment but i can't find it. After everything that has come to light about the two wars with the passage of time, one is left with two options: either these guys are paid to say these "prophecies" or they are too indoctrinated to believe what they preach.

To add, i feel like the "Trump is anointed" rhetoric has been dialled down....

Jill looked at the King: his mouth was open and his face was full of horror. And then she understood the devilish cunning of the enemies' plan. By mixing a little truth with it they had made their lie far stronger.

Who, according to you, is doing this? BNI or Rick Wiles?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And that's the problem, its foreign policy now and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.
Perry Stone is mentioned (10th mark) and i used to watch him alot, back in the day. A christian zionist, yes, but not as flamboyant as Hagee. I remember so well, how he talked about the Invasion of Iraq and how everything was prophetic, down to the date. I've tried looking for a video of that segment but i can't find it. After everything that has come to light about the two wars with the passage of time, one is left with two options: either these guys are paid to say these "prophecies" or they are too indoctrinated to believe what they preach.


Who, according to you, is doing this? BNI or Rick Wiles?

With respect, which person is doing it is unimportant @Karlysymon

When Jesus began his earthly ministry, many people could not see him because so much tradition and mythos had grown up about the coming Messiah that even when He performed miracles, they simply could not reconcile the actual Jesus with the one they expected.

If we assume that both God and Satan are real, the enemy will be fully aware of the prophecies that lead to the lake of fire for him. These things will not come upon the earth without people noticing...

So:-

What better narrative to create than one where the "powers that be" try to bring prophecies to seemingly pass for their own ends. That way, the most aware of us can actually become the most deceived.

We could have a "rapture", a third temple, serial natural disasters and even a Mark of the Beast and many here would just marvel at the way the "elites" had managed to pull it all off!

 

[Serveto]

That way, the most aware of us can actually become the most deceived.

We could have a "rapture", a third temple, serial natural disasters and even a Mark of the Beast and many here would just marvel at the way the "elites" had managed to pull it all off!

Granted, and there must have been some reason why Jesus and others warned of deception, and said something to the effect that the days would be shortened so the very elect could be saved. Your enemy is good at his game, including that of imitation, and, this time, it is a geopolitical and apocalyptic endgame. Some recalcitrant because non-Zionist so called "true Torah" Jews aren't buying either, because they remember being taught, for two millennia, that, among other reasons, their messiah was not to come by either might or by power, which I assume includes military might and financial power, but only by God's Spirit, and they rather wisely, it seems to me, don't see that Spirit as very evidently being exchanged in a quid pro quo between Balfour and Rothschild or riding the wings of American-provided Raytheon war jets.

Do you have anything, any comments, to make concerning Rick Wiles's presentation? If so, I would be interested to hear your perspective, as always.

 

[Daciple]

Jews aren't buying either, because they remember being taught, for two millennia, that, among other reasons, their messiah was not to come by either might or by power, which I assume includes military might and financial power, but only by God's Spirit, and they rather wisely, it seems to me, don't see that Spirit as very evidently being exchanged in a quid pro quo between Balfour and Rothschild or riding the wings of American-provided Raytheon war jets.

Yet they posses no Wisdom as they have reject Jesus who literally came in that exact fashion.. They wont know their Savior (more than likely) until it is too late, once Jesus comes its over for all who havent accepted Him...

 

[Serveto]

Yet they posses no Wisdom as they have reject Jesus who literally came in that exact fashion.. They wont know their Savior (more than likely) until it is too late, once Jesus comes its over for all who havent accepted Him...

Isn't it generally thought, in Christian Evangelical circles, that there will be a mass conversion of Jews when, in fulfillment of Prophet Zecharia and at the Second Coming, they "look on whom they pierced?" I have heard that claimed here, on, and by others off the board. You see it differently, apparently?

Anyway, though I am interested in how people interpret the prophecies, I am paying especial attention to the politics of the Middle Eastern region and to the forces which shape the foreign policy of the USA, which includes Christian Zionism. However unwise you think they are, and I understand your reasoning, True Torah Jews constitute a part of the Israeli polity, not the most popular part, mind you, and I sometimes listen to their views.

 

[DavidSon]

Christian zionism shows us the danger of fantastical biblical interpretation, and that the most corrupt and evil forces are using the Word against humanity. Talk about hijacked. The fraudulent jews are not the ancient peoples of the bible and these revolting impostors of Christ are a cancer to society. Looking at the history, this disease began from protestantism (probably another of Luther's obscure revelations while on the toilet), the wicked puritans, to Falwell and the christian right, to the madness of the modern day NAR ( that Dale just shared a link about). Truly Satan is the impostor and I wish for nothing but death to his army.

I'm thankful to know that several US churches have spoken against the far-right israeli extremists: National Council of Churches, the Mennonites, Presbyterian, Reformed Church, United Methodist. Wickipedia lists these but I'm sure there's more. This a battle of RIGHT over wrong my friends, so keep sharing the truth.

My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from here. John 18:36

 

[Karlysymon]

With respect, which person is doing it is unimportant @Karlysymon

When Jesus began his earthly ministry, many people could not see him because so much tradition and mythos had grown up about the coming Messiah that even when He performed miracles, they simply could not reconcile the actual Jesus with the one they expected.

If we assume that both God and Satan are real, the enemy will be fully aware of the prophecies that lead to the lake of fire for him. These things will not come upon the earth without people noticing...

So:-

What better narrative to create than one where the "powers that be" try to bring prophecies to seemingly pass for their own ends. That way, the most aware of us can actually become the most deceived.

We could have a "rapture", a third temple, serial natural disasters and even a Mark of the Beast and many here would just marvel at the way the "elites" had managed to pull it all off!

I was also anticipating your comments on the video.

We have, compared to 1st century Jews, the benefit of retrospect and/or the passage of time. I don’t disagree that the prophecies relating to the first Advent were misinterpreted, culminating in the crucifixion, and that the second Advent (with events before and after) isn’t immune to misinterpretation. The benefit that we have is that their mistakes are open to us to be studied, such as: it made sense for the “teachers of Israel” to misread the prophecies because they spelled an end to their office, namely, the priesthood. So they worked their way around the topic, in essence, they had motive to misread the prophecies…..in rejecting Christ, they maintained the existence of their office. As in, an earthly priesthood cannot co-exist with a heavenly priesthood, so something has got to give.

Hence we can apply the same standard by looking at each eschatological pov. Not to rail against your beliefs but the PTB just love pre-mil/pre-trib, not just in politics but in entertainment aswell (think: the Left Behind movies). They heavily lean on it for their geo-political moves (why? Could they have spawned it?) I challenge you to find me one (Hollywood made) Christian end-times movie that isn’t pre-trib. The biggest Christian tv networks in the world are pre-trib/pro-Israel….because the existence of the state of Israel is a prerequisite for the rapture/temple/etc

Anyway, some of those televangelists sold the Iraq war from their pulpits and the same is being done or has been done for whatever it is that is coming (Megiddo). Iam reposting this Vice video

 

[TokiEl]

Let's see who owns the so called Holy land...

Leviticus 25 23The land must not be sold permanently, because it is Mine, and you are but foreigners and sojourners with Me.

It is mine !L0L

 

[Daciple]

Let's see who owns the so called Holy land...

Leviticus 25 23The land must not be sold permanently, because it is Mine, and you are but foreigners and sojourners with Me.

It is mine !L0L

Not sure your point is being made here brother, God is calling the Israelites Foreigners, and telling them not to sell of the Land He is giving to them. Of course the Holy Land is His, what else is His?

Ps 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

Ps 24:The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Ps 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Gen 14;22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

1 Cor 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Ect ect ect...

Its all His and everything in it as well, so your point is kind of moot...

 

[Daciple]

Isn't it generally thought, in Christian Evangelical circles, that there will be a mass conversion of Jews when, in fulfillment of Prophet Zecharia and at the Second Coming, they "look on whom they pierced?" I have heard that claimed here, on, and by others off the board. You see it differently, apparently?

Yes Christian Zionists believe that there will be a mass conversion, I however dont necessarily believe that will or needs to happen. I believe once Jesus comes back its over, there is no possibility to Repent. Most of them believe in the Pre Trib Rapture which again I fully reject, so if there is no 7 years (which the ideology didnt exist until the 1800's) then there is no opportunity for a mass conversion.

They all have the opportunity now to Repent and come to Christ now, and of course I take the interpretation of Scripture that has been held for 2000 years that Jesus fulfilled that Prophecy already. If you read all the other verses and chapters surrounding that we see the term "In that day" and then many things happening. We can look at direct Scripture and see that the writers of the New Testament clearly show that these Prophecies were fulfilled when Christ came and died and Resurrected-the Destruction of Jerusalem.

Examples would be:

Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.


Jesus came and caused the Old Covenant to pass away by fulfilling it, as noted in other Scripture:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Matt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of Silver, fulfilling the 2nd half of that Prophecy:

Matt 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.


There was a fountain opened to the house of David and Jerusalem for Sin, as Jesus stated above

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

In that day the Shepard would be smitten and the sheep scattered:

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matt 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


I can keep going but that should suffice to show that all of the surrounding Prophecies were fulfilled, why would someone rip that one out and say its going sometime in the Future? It isnt, Jerusalem already saw Him pierced and they have mourned. The authors of the New Testament attribute all of these Prophecies as being fulfilled in Christ already, so why should we disagree with them and literally thousands of years and billions of Christians before John Nelson Darby came along?

Anyway, though I am interested in how people interpret the prophecies, I am paying especial attention to the politics of the Middle Eastern region and to the forces which shape the foreign policy of the USA, which includes Christian Zionism. However unwise you think they are, and I understand your reasoning, True Torah Jews constitute a part of the Israeli polity, not the most popular part, mind you, and I sometimes listen to their views.

Understandable, and I agree, JND ideology has massively influenced American Foreign Policy and I believe that is to everyones shame. Just think how little power they would have if the millions of Christians in America didnt believe in Pre Trib Dispensationalism? Think what would happen if everyone believed as they had for 1000's of years that National and Political Israel place in Prophecy was no longer valid. I think it would be incredibly difficult to have us support Israel as we do if people were to turn back to the Truth concerning Prophecy and understand JND ideologies and where they stem from. Alas tho, the average American Christian has been diluted and brainwashed 100% into Zionism, its as Central to most of their beliefs as the Death and Resurrection of Christ. So they will keep supporting Israel regardless of what horrible things they may do, and keep believing that all these Jesus hating Anti Christs are Gods People, and God will miraculous cause all of them to accept Him ect ect ect...

 

[Renegade]

This is from an article on Dylan which shows shows quite well how original "dispensational premillennialism" was hijacked by a political movement.. The author lectures in political science at a reformed Calvinist college so doesn't seem to be an apologist...

https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/25/bob-dylan-and-christian-zionism/

Part of the late 1970s evangelical revival in the U.S. was a growth of Zionism among American Christians. It dovetailed with the migration of millions of ex-passive and ex-Democratic voters into the hawkish Republican Party. It was also connected with the popularity of Hal Lindsey’s book The Late Great Planet Earth, which depicted Israel and the communist Soviet and Chinese governments as military opponents in the soon-to-occur Battle of Armageddon. Hence politics and religion, nationalism and exegesis, were combined into a potent movement. The Moral Majority of Jerry Falwell and the 700 Club of Pat Robertson were two institutional manifestations of this movement.

This was the national religious context at the time Bob Dylan was converted to Christ in 1978-79. It would have made some sense if he had become a new leader of the Christian Zionist movement. He is Jewish. Even before his conversion, he believed in God and was familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures. In Hibbing, Minnesota, his parents were leaders in the local Hadassah (a women’s Zionist organization) and B’nai B’rith. He spent some of his boyhood summers near Webster, Wisconsin, attending Herzl Camp, a Jewish summer camp with a Zionist focus. He visited Israel in the early 1970s. He was interested in End Times prophecy and embraced the premillennial dispensational interpretation of Lindsey. And yet Dylan did not become a leading Christian Zionist. Why not? There are three reasons.

Dylan’s newfound Christianity was in many ways less-culture-bound than the average American evangelical at the time (partly because it was new and he approached the Bible with the fresh eyes of a convert). The type of Christianity to which Dylan belonged during his early months as a believer was the latter-day Jesus Movement. The Jesus People had a Christ Against Culture theological ethic which meant that they strived to be less culturally-co-opted (worldly) than mainstream Christians in America. Of course, the Jesus People had their own cultural traits but support for the Israeli government and support for Cold War militarism and U.S. imperialism were not among these traits.

A second reason that Dylan did not go the route of Christian Zionism is that he had a more-spiritual, less-politicized understanding of Bible eschatology (study of the Last Things or End Times). The late nineteenth-century/early twentieth-century theological movement known as dispensational premillennialism is often credited or blamed for post-1967 Christian Zionism among American evangelicals. But this is not accurate. The Scofield Reference Bible has little to do with the devotion to the Israeli government—mostly to the Likud Party—that is so prevalent among evangelical Christians belonging to the Republican Party.

From the perspective of Bob Dylan and similar premillennialists, C.I. Scofield and the dispensationalists (including Lindsey) were correct in saying that God has not forgotten his promises to the Jewish people. The Old Testament promises cannot simply be spiritualized or applied to the Church. That is too self-serving and not faithful to the scriptural record. Israel as an ethnic and historical entity did not disappear with the first advent and promises given to Israel did not simply vanish. Traditionally, Christians believe that in the Last Days there will be a consummation of those promises in a way that includes not only the Church but also Israel. Dylan and other believers think that Jesus Christ will reign from Jerusalem but it will not be a specifically Jewish kingdom. It will be a universal Kingdom that includes the believing remnant of Israel. According to Revelation—one of Dylan’s favorite books—the New Jerusalem will bear the names of the twelve apostles of Christ and the twelve tribes of Israel.

A.C. Gaebelein was a consulting editor for the original Scofield Reference Bible (1909), a contributor to The Fundamentals (1910-15), and a prominent Bible teacher at premillennial conferences. He was an evangelist to Jews in New York City and was very pro-Jewish in the sense of having a love for Jewish people. He was knowledgeable in Hebrew, was an Old Testament scholar, and edited Our Hope, a Bible prophecy magazine that looked forward to God’s eventual restoration of the Jews to Palestine.[1] However, unlike fellow dispensationalist William Blackstone, Gaebelein “consistently warned against alliance with the Zionists.” In 1905, he wrote, “Zionism is not the divinely promised restoration of Israel . . . [It] is not the fulfillment of the large number of predictions found in the Old Testament Scriptures, which relates to Israel’s return to the land. Indeed, Zionism has very little use of argument from the Word of God. It is rather a political and philanthropic undertaking. . . . The great movement is one of unbelief and confidence in themselves instead of God’s eternal purposes.”[2]

Gaebelein exemplified a type of premillennial eschatology that had apolitical or anarchistic implications. As George Marsden notes, “Premillennialism taught that no trust should be put in kings or governments and that no government would be specially blessed by God until the coming of the King who would personally lead in defeating the forces of Satan.” This perspective not only dampened Gaebelein’s enthusiasm for Zionism but it also led him to oppose U.S. involvement in World War I, in 1917, before he eventually succumbed to worldly pro-war jingoism.

Today, few Christian Zionists are taking their marching orders from the Scofield Bible. It is not a common item of study or interest. Dispensationalism is a small subsection of evangelicalism. Since the 1970s, far more evangelicals have been influenced by the teachings of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Paul Crouch, John Hagee, et al., than by C.I. Scofield, J.N. Darby, Lewis Sperry Chafer, John Walvoord, et al. It is true that the televangelists have embraced a watered-down version of dispensational eschatology, but even that was not handed down directly from Scofield. It is mostly just an emphasis on “Jesus is coming back soon. Israel’s re-founding in 1948 was a sign of the End. America must be Israel’s friend.” There is not much theology there.

For most evangelicals, glorification of the modern state of Israel comes much more out of a few verses in Genesis 12 than from the Day of the Lord chapters in Daniel, the rapture passage in I Thessalonians, or the tribulation/millennial chapters in Revelation. Even the Genesis passage is often a scriptural pretext for worldly geopolitics that centers on devotion to specific governments—namely, the United States and Israel. Whether in the context of the Cold War, the War on Terror, anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment, or Jewish ethnic (not religious) loyalty, this is more political than theological. God is being used in service to Country.

Modern Israel is not ancient Israel. Many Orthodox Jews opposed the pre-1948 Zionist movement because they believed that the re-creation of Israel must be effected by the Messiah himself. Israel is officially a Jewish state but this refers to ethnicity, not religion. Theodor Herzl (father of modern Zionism), Chaim Weizmann (founding president of Israel), and David Ben-Gurion (founding prime minister of Israel) were secularists if not atheists. They did not embrace the religion of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet, blank-check support for the Israeli government is the norm among Bible-believing white Protestants.

 

[Dalit]

Hey, VCers! This is a bit long at 3 hours, but it's the best video that helped me understand why the fuss over Zionism and what Zionism is and what the "powers that be" do with it. So, in the month I was gone, I learned some new things and changed my mind on a few things. This doesn't mean I don't still love Israel, but I see why Zionism is different and bad.

 

[Dalit]

By mixing a little truth with it they had made their lie far stronger.

Brilliant. The essence of deception.

 

[TokiEl]

Zionism was the struggle to establish the Jewish state and is the struggle to preserve and protect it.

God is on record stating that He will return the Jews to His land because of His name. And God makes it clear in Ezekiel 36 that if this return was dependent on the righteousness of the Jews... they would not return at all.

It's all about God fulfilling the Script in His story !