Who Was Jesus?

[Haich]

Where did Muhammad get his information? First off his wifes cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a Catholic, I am sure he explained Catholicism to him, which explains why Muhammad doesnt understand the Trinity at all. And more over, I 100% believe he was visited by a Spirit in that cave, but that Spirit definitely wasnt Gabriel, Satan transforms himself as an angel of light. We know its not Gabriel because Gabriel wouldnt be telling others to deny the Atonement and Salvation found in Christ. Whether an Angel or a Man denies the Gospel they are to be accursed, that Spirit that came to your false prophet is accursed and Muhammad is accursed. I hope you repent and come to know the One True God and the only possibility of Salvation, thru the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ...

Yh blame the Catholics lol that's all I see Christians doing on here. Well he didn't get his information from Catholicism, if he did we'd be worshipping Mary.

Gabriel was given the word of God, then he came and appeared to Mohammed in his cave of meditation. He commanded Mohammed to
'Read in the name of his Lord'

The chapter (surah) is called Al Alaq, search it if you have time for a translation. I'm on mobile and this site is a little slow.
Mohammed replied he can't read, and obviously was terrified and after the encounter rushed to his wife Khadija, who consoled him. This is a very brief explanation of the first encounter between Gabriel and Mohammed.

I'm going to ignore your emotional comments, I'm simply a truth seeker open to any scripture which tells me about God however, the bible doesn't do that for me.

You haven't answered me questions regarding where Mohammed supposedly got his extensive information from, Catholicism as you agree is totally different to what Muslims and Christians follow. If you find where Mohammed got his knowledge despite being illiterate, then please let me know

God sent the Quran in Arabic because Mohammed was an Arab, was the Torah not in Hebrew? Semitic languages were specific to the region of those that revelation was sent to. Arabic and hebrew are similar in pronunciation so I see similarities in that regard

The Quran is for me directly from God. A man could not have told Mohammed extensive information about the origins of the universe, how man was created, why we're here amongst many other questions which for me were answered.

 

[rainerann]

No it's slander to attribute incest to Noah and Lot. It's like you're trying to elevate Jesus by stripping those before him of any credibility. Maybe I'm wrong and that's not the intention of the bible but I do have to question a book that speaks so ill of men Jesus followed...

I didn't say they were sinless, Moses killed a man I agree but I disagree with the incest claims of Noah and Lot. The difference between our version of events is God pardoned Moses when he swift forgiveness plus he didn't intentionally kill, it was manslaughter. Why isn't forgiveness mentioned in the bible in regards to these men that God chose to lead nations? I just think it's off to say they sinned, we condemn them, but act like we don't sin. So Jesus saved you and now you're better than Noah and Lot?

Yh Mohammed's life has been widely discussed in the Mohammed thread so have a look there for any further questions about him. It's boring to repeat myself all the time but if you're genuinely interested I'll see if I can post some stuff later on in the day

It does. Every time something happens that you are referring to as slander, the judgement is given in scripture or a decision was made that creates a conclusion. When Noah was found naked by his son, Canaan was pronounced with a judgement by Noah because Ham did nothing and walked away after seeing his father naked. Since there is a judgement given for the ones who were used by God when they sinned, I am not forced to defend their sin. The Bible says they were judged and God still used them. If someone has a problem with God still using them even when they sinned, then they have a problem with the way God determines a judgement when we sin.

What I am not in the position to do is to say that God should have been harsher in His judgement towards their sin. I am not in the position to say He should have been more lenient. I accept that there was sin in the lives of the people that were called by God and it affected how effective they were able to be. Knowing that there is consequence to how effectively you can be used by God should dissuade someone from committing the same sins.

Many times, the judgement of the Old Testament was not up to par with the standard that God wanted. He was gracious in giving the law to Moses. He expected more than this, which is what we learn from Christ in the Gospel, but we would not have been capable of this because of the hardness of our hearts.

Jesus said, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:8). It was because of this same hardness of heart that many things came to pass within the Old Testament. If we take this same concept and apply it to a regular history book, we can see that a hardness of heart has caused many sins and tragedies throughout history. What the Bible says is that there were men who God called within this world of hardened hearts and revealed Himself to them, and they were also hardened like the other people we read about in history books. They did not create a utopia by their righteousness within a history that was filled with hardened hearts.

This is the message of salvation and the reason why Christ is distinct from the rest of them. The world is filled with hardened hearts and through Christ, our hearts are softened. Since Christ completed the work given to Him by the Lord without sin, and because He has been resurrected, the Holy Spirit comes and softens our hearts when we turn to God and accept His covenant. We accept that this is an agreement He was willing to make with mankind and accepting Christ as the Messiah allows us to be free of the hardness that can make life difficult and filled with hardship.

 

[Daciple]

No it's slander to attribute incest to Noah and Lot. It's like you're trying to elevate Jesus by stripping those before him of any credibility. Maybe I'm wrong and that's not the intention of the bible but I do have to question a book that speaks so ill of men Jesus followed...

I erred in saying Noah committed incest, it was only Lot, but both of them got drunk, which is Sin. I dont believe it is slander to speak the Truth, slander is to purposefully lie, the Word of God tells us that all these men did all these things, why? Because they are human like I keep explaining.

Im not trying to elevate Jesus by stripping those before Him of credibility, all of them are Great Men of God, however only Jesus was Perfectly Righteous and Perfectly Sinless, these men before Him were not, which you agree with yet your Religion says otherwise concerning the prophets..

I didn't say they were sinless, Moses killed a man I agree but I disagree with the incest claims of Noah and Lot. The difference between our version of events is God pardoned Moses when he swift forgiveness plus he didn't intentionally kill, it was manslaughter. Why isn't forgiveness mentioned in the bible in regards to these men that God chose to lead nations? I just think it's off to say they sinned, we condemn them, but act like we don't sin. So Jesus saved you and now you're better than Noah and Lot?

I dont understand where your line of questioning is coming from there friend. Where did I say that God never pardoned Moses, Noah or Lot? Where do you get the idea that forgiveness wasnt mentioned in the Bible regarding them? Again I am wondering if you have ever picked up a Bible and even superficially read it.

There was an entire system created for forgiveness of sins, have you hear of the Law of Moses? Have you heard of the Temple? Do you know what the Jews were doing for 1000's of year prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad?

You can read all about the implimentation of the system of forgiveness in Leviticus if you would like to learn more about it, but here is Moses and his brother being purified by the blood of the sacrifice needed for forgiveness of sin as commanded in the Law:

Lev 8:14 And he brought the bullock for the sin offering: and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the bullock for the sin offering.
15 And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it.

Moses made a Sacrifice for his Sin, and because he had faith that God gave the Commandments and Law and that in the Law it says this is how Sin is purged, he believed and thus was forgiven.

Noah also made sacrifices before the Lord, showing he understood the concept as well:

Gen 9:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

David made sacrifices for his Sins as seen here:

2 Sam 2:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

24 And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.
25 And David built there an altar unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.

I can go on and on but each of the Prophets when they sinned made a Sacrifice for their Sin, Repented and believed in faith and thus were forgiven. The entire system of Sacrifice practiced by Israel for 1000's of years shows the need for a Sacrifice in order to have Redemption and Forgiveness of Sin. All of it points to Christ.

Also I never once said I am better than Noah or Lot, they were greater men than me, they did great things in the name of the Lord, things I never will be able to, but that doesnt mean that they didnt Sin, and need a Sacrifice to purge them of their Sins, just like you and I do...

 

[Daciple]

How did you come to that conclusion ?

Because I understand the concept of Ismah in Islam that essentially

says all the prophets are sinless...

Everyone is prone to something, adultry, lying, stealth etc. Whatever your weakness is Satan plays on it to try and further you from God

I agree with that...

We can't really speak for God he can forgive anyone he wants

Yes I understand how your god works, there is no assurance or understanding of how or why or if he forgives anyone, you dont even know if Muhammad made it to heaven, hence the peace be on him...

However the One True God told us thru His Word exactly how and why and who He forgives, there is no mystery, and He give utter assurance...

I didn't say Moses was perfect, I find it odd that you keep focusing on this, the point I was making was he was a great man of God and God forgave him for what he did. In terms of slander I was focusing on Noah and Lot

I mentioned it because according to Islam Moses was perfect, he didnt need forgiveness for his sin because of Ismah...

Muhammad is considered absolutely perfect and sinless and is the blueprint of how men should be, however objectively he is everything a man should never be, unless all he cares about is amassing an Army and gaining riches and slaves...

you sound republican. The theology of Christ didn't exist before Jesus so what were people doing then? Sound like a made up concept to me

Lol so you want to stereotype my politics because I can read and understand History objectively? Sorry my man I reject Republican and Democrats Im neither but thats not for this Thread...

And yes the Theology of Christ existed before Jesus, it was found directly in the Sacrifices being made all day every day for 1000's of years by the Israelites at the Temple. If you Sin you Repented brought a Sacrifice, the Blood was applied to the Altar and you had Faith and Believed and thus your Sin was Forgiven. Same exact thing with Jesus, you Sin you Repent, Jesus IS the Sacrifice, His Blood was applied to the Altar, you have Faith and Believe on Him and your Sin is Forgiven...

 

[Daciple]

blame the Catholics lol that's all I see Christians doing on here. Well he didn't get his information from Catholicism, if he did we'd be worshipping Mary.

Blame Catholics? No, you asked where he received his understanding of Spiritual things I told you some facts, that his wifes cousin was a Catholic and definitely would have spoken to him about Religion. Its outright mentioned in your own Holy Text that it was him that told Muhammad it was an Angel that visited him in the cave, you know this right?

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605:

"..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

Narrated 'Aisha(R): Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.

So your own Holy Texts tell us that he was a Christian (Catholic) wrote the Gospels in Hebrew, and was the first person to tell Muhammad that supposedly it was an Angel of God that came to him, yet you want me to believe this man had no influence of Muhammad or ever told him about Catholicism? Sorry but its only logical that Muhammad gained Religious understanding from him and like I said it explains why Muhammad didnt know anything about the Trinity. Either Muhammad misunderstood what the Trinity was about from hearing and seeing Catholicism, or Allah is ignorant to what the Trinity is because it is described incorrectly in the Koran, its one or the other take your pick...

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three (thalathatun). Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. S. 4:171

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. S. 5:17

They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’ They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three (thalithu thalathatin). No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. Will they not turn to God and pray His forgiveness? God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75

And when God said, ‘O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?’ He said, ‘To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen I only said to them what Thou didst command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when Thou didst take me to Thyself, Thou wast Thyself the watcher over them; Thou Thyself art witness of everything.’ S. 5:116-117

The Trinity is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, the god of Muhammad believes it is Allah, Jesus and Mary. The only real reason Muhammad wrote this is because he had a superficial knowledge of Christianity taught to him by his wifes cousin and saw how revered Mary was in Catholicism as they make her the Co-Redeemer essentially...

And no you wouldnt be worshiping Mary because Muhammad was Anti Trinity, he just was ignorant as to what the actual Trinity is...

Gabriel was given the word of God, then he came and appeared to Mohammed in his cave of meditation. He commanded Mohammed to
'Read in the name of his Lord'

The chapter (surah) is called Al Alaq, search it if you have time for a translation. I'm on mobile and this site is a little slow.
Mohammed replied he can't read, and obviously was terrified and after the encounter rushed to his wife Khadija, who consoled him. This is a very brief explanation of the first encounter between Gabriel and Mohammed.

Oh I know all about the Unnamed Spirit in the cave with Muhammad that almost killed him, and drove him to almost kill himself, like I said it was Khadijahs cousin that tried to tell him it was the same Angel that came to Moses. However it wasnt Gabriel that came to Moses it was God Himself according to the True Word of God, the Bible, so he screwed up there too...

The Unnamed Spirit was a demon...

You haven't answered me questions regarding where Mohammed supposedly got his extensive information from, Catholicism as you agree is totally different to what Muslims and Christians follow. If you find where Mohammed got his knowledge despite being illiterate, then please let me know

I did answer you, from a mix of Khadijahs cousin and from the Unnamed Spirit, who is a demon. I told you I 100% believe Muhammad had a Spiritual Encounter with some entity in that cave, but I know for a fact it wasnt Gabriel as one it didnt act like Gabriel did in the Bible and two Gabriel wouldnt tell Muhammad to make a Religion that is fundamentally based on rejecting Christ and the only way for Humanity to be forgiven their Sins. That was either a Demon or Satan himself...

The Quran is for me directly from God. A man could not have told Mohammed extensive information about the origins of the universe, how man was created, why we're here amongst many other questions which for me were answered.

I can tell you quite a bit about it, I just have to relay to you what the Bible says, its not that hard and add on top of that he was contacting Demons or Satan himself well there you go, they have quite a bit of knowledge about the creation and whatnot, they were there for most of it were they not?

 

[Haich]

So your own Holy Texts tell us that he was a Christian (Catholic) wrote the Gospels in Hebrew, and was the first person to tell Muhammad that supposedly it was an Angel of God that came to him, yet you want me to believe this man had no influence of Muhammad or ever told him about Catholicism?

The Hadith tells you all you need to know, so what if she was Christian/Catholic? She was confirming that it was the same message Moses and all the other prophets received.
The section you highlighted doesn't validate your point, it only confirms the old man was a follower of Jesus. Which was normal at the time since he was the latest prophet sent from God.

This is the section you should focus on:

Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out."Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?"Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone(man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if Ishould remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.

The old man confirms this is the same message Jesus taught at his time. You need to remember at Mohammed's time the Arabs were mostly pagans and idol worshippers. The Quran came to rectify their ways.

 

[Haich]

So your own Holy Texts tell us that he was a Christian (Catholic) wrote the Gospels in Hebrew, and was the first person to tell Muhammad that supposedly it was an Angel of God that came to him, yet you want me to believe this man had no influence of Muhammad or ever told him about Catholicism? Sorry but its only logical that Muhammad gained Religious understanding from him and like I said it explains why Muhammad didnt know anything about the Trinity. Either Muhammad misunderstood what the Trinity was about from hearing and seeing Catholicism, or Allah is ignorant to what the Trinity is because it is described incorrectly in the Koran, its one or the other take your pick...

Like I said there's no evidence to suggest Mohammed was inspired by Catholicism through his wife's cousin. They simply went there to tell him what happened and he told them this is the same angel who appeared in previous scripture and this is the same message mentioned in previous scripture. He goes on to explain that men sent from God were treated with hostility because people didn't want to believe God was one. They want to associate partners with him, they want to believe he has a son despite no concrete evidence backing up this claim. Interpretations and rewording of scripture at the hands of man and editing what was once the word of Jesus is what caused people to believe the version of Christianity we have today.

With regards to your stance on where Mohammed was 'inspired' by to 'write' the Quran, Catholicism is inherently different to Islam so it doesn't answer the question of where he gained his information. You mentioned something about the angel being a demon, again no truth to that because a demon wouldn't have the extensive knowledge presented in the Quran.

 

[Haich]

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three (thalathatun). Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. S. 4:171

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. S. 5:17

They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’ They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three (thalithu thalathatin). No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. Will they not turn to God and pray His forgiveness? God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75

And when God said, ‘O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?’ He said, ‘To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen I only said to them what Thou didst command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when Thou didst take me to Thyself, Thou wast Thyself the watcher over them; Thou Thyself art witness of everything.’ S. 5:116-117

Why did you quote all this?

 

[Haich]

The Trinity is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, the god of Muhammad believes it is Allah, Jesus and Mary. The only real reason Muhammad wrote this is because he had a superficial knowledge of Christianity taught to him by his wifes cousin and saw how revered Mary was in Catholicism as they make her the Co-Redeemer essentially...

What ?

' the god of Mohammed believes it is Allah'

Not sure I even understand your point there

Why would an illiterate man conspire against Jesus? What would he gain? Who helped him craft the Quran? It's authenticity lies with the fact that it was God's direct word which Gabriel taught to Mohammed over a period of years

 

[Daciple]

Like I said there's no evidence to suggest Mohammed was inspired by Catholicism through his wife's cousin.

You can be blind about it if you choose, thats fine, I have already stated my case, I dont expect you to accept it but now others who are reading know that Muhammads wifes cousin was a Catholic and that Muhammad didnt understand the Trinity correctly, instead speaking to it as it can be related in Catholicism. Those reading can understand the inferences I have made, even if you can not, or more like refuse to...

With regards to your stance on where Mohammed was 'inspired' by to 'write' the Quran, Catholicism is inherently different to Islam so it doesn't answer the question of where he gained his information. You mentioned something about the angel being a demon, again no truth to that because a demon wouldn't have the extensive knowledge presented in the Quran.

No need to go round and round, I have presented my case and explained where I believe Muhammad received his information. He took what he knew of Religion probably mostly learned from that old man, and included it with the Demonic Spirit he encountered. You can say demons dont know this, but considering they were there at the begining of creation they have a good idea how it was created, and regardless how Muslims try and spin it most of what the Koran says about the supposed extensive knowledge in the Koran most if it is incorrect, whether it is shown incorrect by biology or history or comparatively to the Word of God, its incorrect...

Why did you quote all this?

To show that Muhammad didnt understand the Trinity and believed it was Allah Mary and Jesus, I literally explained it in my post.

 

[Haich]

Oh I know all about the Unnamed Spirit in the cave with Muhammad that almost killed him, and drove him to almost kill himself, like I said it was Khadijahs cousin that tried to tell him it was the same Angel that came to Moses. However it wasnt Gabriel that came to Moses it was God Himself according to the True Word of God, the Bible, so he screwed up there too...

Actually he wanted to kill himself because of the terror he felt, the confusion the worry and fear of what had been revealed to him by Gabriel. He didn't know how to handle it and even after getting used to the idea, he was still learning about how to deliver God's message. The message was clear, there's only 1 God and he was the final messenger. Do not associate partners with God or attribute him to humans...Christianity went wrong when people misinterpreted the who concept of Jesus is the way to the father. Also, son didn't mean begotten son, God doesn't beget in literal and metaphorical terms. Again it's clarified in the quranic verses you posted

Mohammed was human like all the other prophets, there was even a time he had depression when a period came that no revelation came to him. He was confused and God eventually sent down surah ad-duha, consoling him and telling him to be patient for God has not forgotten him...

Well I didn't say Gabriel came to Moses and if I did I clearly wasn't proofreading. It was indeed God that spoke to Moses. Quran confirms that too

Gabriel came around the time of Lot I believe in the form of a man...story is available online for viewing

 

[Haich]

You can be blind about it if you choose, thats fine, I have already stated my case, I dont expect you to accept it but now others who are reading know that Muhammads wifes cousin was a Catholic and that Muhammad didnt understand the Trinity correctly, instead speaking to it as it can be related in Catholicism. Those reading can understand the inferences I have made, even if you can not, or more like refuse to...

Well I'll say it again this is not evidence, and Catholicism is totally different to Islam so the fact the cousin was Christian/Catholic doesn't explain who wrote the Quran. It just tells me that old man was following Jesus.

 

[JoChris]

What ?

' the god of Mohammed believes it is Allah'

Not sure I even understand your point there

Why would an illiterate man conspire against Jesus? What would he gain? Who helped him craft the Quran? It's authenticity lies with the fact that it was God's direct word which Gabriel taught to Mohammed over a period of years

Spiritual deception. I have no trouble believing Muhammad got visited by an angel.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12:7-9&version=KJV

One third of the angels joined Satan and were kicked out of Heaven. They are called fallen angels, demons etc.

 

[Haich]

To show that Muhammad didnt understand the Trinity and believed it was Allah Mary and Jesus, I literally explained it in my post.

Sorry you type a lot and I'm skimming through, I probably missed your explanation. Thanks for clarifying

Ok let's be clear he came to literally debunk the trinity. There's nothing to understand about it, it's not logical for God to come to earth, he's above everything that's the point of a God. The trinity came into existence after Jesus' departure from this world and was not practiced by original follows of the messiah

Looool Allah Mary and Jesus? Sound like a sitcom

Sorry this just shows me you have no idea about what the Quran says about the trinity. You cited the correct verses and they clearly tell you what you need to know

 

[Haich]

One third of the angels joined Satan and were kicked out of Heaven. They are called fallen angels, demons etc.

Angels are created to obey God, they don't disobey him according to the Quran. They're made of light or 'nur'

I think you're referring to what we call Jinn. Satan is a Jinn, made from smokeless fire

 

[JoChris]

I realise that your Quran must say that.
I am showing what the bible says where the demons and fallen angels came from.

Smokeless fire? That sounds like some type of physical substance, not spirit.

 

[Haich]

I realise that your Quran must say that.
I am showing what the bible says where the demons and fallen angels came from.

Smokeless fire? That sounds like some type of physical substance, not spirit.

What do angels do according to the bible ? What's their role ?

 

[Daciple]

Not sure I even understand your point there

Is English a second language? Not trying to be jerk or anything but it may explain somethings...

The god of Muhammad, Allah, believes that the Trinity was, Allah(god) Jesus and Mary

Why would an illiterate man conspire against Jesus? What would he gain?

Lol well what did he gain man? Lets see he went from being an illiterate nobody to an extremely rich warlord with a massive army, slave women he could fornicate with whenever he wanted, and basically could do any and everything he wanted, all he had to do was say Allah told me to do it and boom everyone let him do it. Even steal his Sons wife by forcing him to divorce her, you know Carnal False Prophet type things...

Who helped him craft the Quran?

Alright man, this has been answered multiple times now, why do you keep asking the same exact question? But since you did lets relay some more information about how corrupt Muhammad was and how the Koran came about...

From Al-Sira by al-'Iraqi

The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. `Abdallah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Quraishite among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'Most High, All-Wise', and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him." So on the day Muhammad conquered Mecca, he commanded his scribe to be killed. But the scribe fled to `Uthman Ibn `Affan, because `Uthman was his foster brother (his mother suckled `Uthman). `Uthman, therefore, kept him away from Muhammad. After the people calmed down, `Uthman brought the scribe to Muhammad and sought protection for him. Muhammad kept silent for a long time, after which he said yes. When `Uthman had left, Muhammad said "I only kept silent so that you (the people) should kill him."

From a biography of Muhammads life, we see that he was influenced by his scribes and they wrote different things than what was supposedly revealed to him, showing that the Koran is tainted by others influence. We also see here that once Muhammad found out about how this scribe was playing him, he tried to kill him. Then when the scribe was brought back and asked for protection Muhammad lied and told the people to kill him. Legit...

So apparently his Scribes also helped him craft the Koran, along with the Catholic old man and Satan...

It's authenticity lies with the fact that it was God's direct word which Gabriel taught to Mohammed over a period of years

There is nothing externally to bring authenticity to it being the direct word of God from Gabriel, and honestly nothing internally can confirm that save the guy who wrote it says it is...

 

[Haich]

An angel nor a Jinn can possess half the knowledge and artistry in the Quran.

Arabic is not my first language and the only Arabic I've learnt is what's in the Quran, although im still in the process of learning it. From what I can gather from the linguistic miracles alone, this was not a book written or edited by a man...this is to me a book of God to clarify where it all went wrong for man and how this is our last chance to accept God's word.

I'm usually one to stick to evidence but nothing wrong with expressing opinion sometimes

 

[JoChris]

Christian perspective on (holy) angels: Serve God, worship God, assist humans as God commands, battle with demons as God commands.

https://carm.org/what-are-angels
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_6.cfm