Who Was Jesus?

llleopard

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I think maybe it is odd to say that one can accept Jesus as a good moral teacher, but not as the Son of God. He said very strange things - like rebuilding the temple in three days, or that he was the way, truth and life etc. Unless he was something far better than a mere human, many of the things he said were plain crazy. If I thought Jesus was just a man, I wouldn't be interested in following the loony things he said.
 

Haich

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Yh I mean I get the teachings of Jesus according to Christianity but it sounds like Paul's interference has diluted the strength of Jesus' words

Why would we be in debt to God? He created us and due to the original sin we were cast on earth. Since then Satan has continued to corrupt man and lead him astray. He's inspired people to corrupt God's words, you think the disciples prayed to Jesus? Or to God with Jesus?
 

Haich

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I think maybe it is odd to say that one can accept Jesus as a good moral teacher, but not as the Son of God. He said very strange things - like rebuilding the temple in three days, or that he was the way, truth and life etc. Unless he was something far better than a mere human, many of the things he said were plain crazy. If I thought Jesus was just a man, I wouldn't be interested in following the loony things he said.
He was the way and the truth and life but to the people who he was sent to. He wasn't sent to us...they conspired to kill him and God will send him again at the end of time. According to you, he's already forfilled his role of the messiah by dying for your sins...but whys he coming back then...

He was an elevated man blessed with powers that belonged to God. It would probably be easier if you watched the video explaining it, writing essays is quite time consuming lol

Your interest should be God first, study what he says in his books. If people weren't so subscribed to the idea that Jesus is God or the son of God they're find the answers they were looking for
 

llleopard

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Adam was a miracle, God created him with his bare hands. He had no parents. It's similar to Jesus , they're both unique in that they had miraculous births. This was God's work to show he can create life without men, he's all knowing and powerful.

He isn't coming back to save us from our sins he's coming back to kill the anti christ and unite people and finally tell us he's not God! He isn't a normal man, he's a man God gave powers. Couldn't David communicate with animals? Moses and his stick parted seas? God blessed these men by giving them these capabilities
Question because I have no idea and would really like to know...... what kind of powers and capabilities does the Quran say Allah gave to Mohammed?
 
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@God_Is_Formless - I don't think that @Daciple is saying that the prophets were any better or worse people that the rest of us. Prophets were people who heard a message from God and recorded it. Each of them must have had a knowledge and relationship with God to discern his voice. On the other hand, each of them were real, ordinary people as well.

I understand that you have a different perspective on God's relationship with us to the one we hold, and that my reply will not change that perspective ;-)
I agree. :)

It's just that God Simply Exists and Is Unimaginably Beyond everything. That's the main thing Islam teaches. The rest comes with sincerity.
 
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Question because I have no idea and would really like to know...... what kind of powers and capabilities does the Quran say Allah gave to Mohammed?
The Qur'an itself is the greatest of his miracles.

Let me give you an example:

Before reading the Qur'an, one needs to first seek out The Almighty's Protection against Satan the accursed by saying:

A'uudhubillahi Minash Shaytaanir Rajeem


I seek refuge with God against Satan the accursed


Secondly, we need to take God's Name

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem

In The Name of God, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

Only then may you endeavor to read any Chapter you want to. Rules of cleanliness should also be observed.

The first word of the first Chapter is

Alhamdulillah

All Praises and Thanks Are Due to God

That first word itself is a miracle in itself because when you say Praise and Thanks be to God Almighty, you are actually praising and thanking Him for every good thing that He's Given and Continually Giving us. You're in fact thanking Him for the air you're breathing, for the life you're constantly enjoying, for the good eyes that you have, for the good health you're enjoying, for the love that people have for you. Everything!
 

Todd

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This is what it means that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He is the unique one of a kind being, in a unique one of a kind relationship to God. The only possible explanation of the make up of Christ being unique one of a kind in being and relationship is that He is both God and Man, as there is no other being that has the relationship to the Father and is wholly unique in being.
Excellent job breaking down the word "begotten". I agreed with everything in your post until that last sentence. Jesus is the unique one of a kind being for sure, but he does not have to be God to be unique.
 

Kung Fu

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Where does Jesus say He came to die for our sins?

Matt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many
.

He also said He was going to die and 3 days later Resurrect.

Mark 10:33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again
.

As for Ezekiel, do you believe that YOU can turn away from ALL of your Sins? Every single one of them and NEVER do them EVER again? Do you believe you can keep ALL of the Statutes of God? I bet you cant go a day let alone a week, month, year, decade, without Sinning. I bet you cant keep all of the Statues of God for one day let alone the rest of your life, the point of the Law is to expose the fact that you can not keep it, no matter how desperately you would like to, there needs to be some type of divine intervention to make up for that which you can not keep.

I mean did you even bother to read the rest of the passage? Or did you cherry pick that one bit because it literally tells you what I summed up and that was what I wrote before I read the full context of the passage. You surely didnt read the passage or you would already know the answer to your question:

Ez 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

The fact is, there is none that are Righteous not one, in and of themselves:

Psalm 14:2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one
.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If you are not Righteous, if there is not one person on Earth that is Good, then what is it that you shall do to not be condemned of your Sins? You will die in your Sins and what will become you? Its a terrible thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God!!!
I'm not interested in your long-winded arguments that frankly can be summed up in a paragraph or two.

Anyways, You have a dilemma. The author of Luke/Acts, who uses Mark as a source doesn't quote Mark 10:45 the way Mark quotes. In Luke there is no mention of Jesus being some kind of ransom. This means that one of them had it wrong and that perhaps one could be a forgery. Either way it would put the whole issue under scrutiny.

As for Ezekiel it's talking about repentance. For as long as you turn away and genuinely repent you will be forgiven. Let's not forget all the other passages that talk about works and righteousness. You now have two conflicting views. No matter how paragraphs you write and or how many hola-hoops you're willing to jump through it doesn't change that fact. There's absolutely no way you can reconcile with what's in the OT with the NT.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I'm not interested in your long-winded arguments that frankly can be summed up in a paragraph or two.

Anyways, You have a dilemma. The author of Luke/Acts, who uses Mark as a source doesn't quote Mark 10:45 the way Mark quotes. In Luke there is no mention of Jesus being some kind of ransom. This means that one of them had it wrong and that perhaps one could be a forgery. Either way it would put the whole issue under scrutiny.

As for Ezekiel it's talking about repentance. For as long as you turn away and genuinely repent you will be forgiven. Let's not forget all the other passages that talk about works and righteousness. You now have two conflicting views. No matter how paragraphs you write and or how many hola-hoops you're willing to jump through it doesn't change that fact. There's absolutely no way you can reconcile with what's in the OT with the NT.
Hi Kung Fu,

You have really encouraged me to look into the textual evidence for the Bible and I am very grateful to you. I'm sure you're an busy person, but If you ever get chance, check out the evidence for the authenticity of the NT. There is far more than has been suggested by 19th Century 'Higher Criticism'

https://www.authenticity.billcooper.org.uk/newtestament/
 

Kung Fu

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You seem to have no concept of what the term beget or to be begotten means in the Word of God. You seem to think it means having sex and then procreating, but that isnt always what it means it definitely doesnt to Christ or in the Old Testament.

What is the word in Greek that is translated begotten in English?

3439 [e]monogenē μονογενῆ ,only begotten

3439 monogenḗs (from 3411 /misthōtós, "one-and-only" and 1085 /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind).

It literally means one of a kind, only of its class, unique, none other like it. How do we know this is the meaning for Christ? Because He is also said to be the first begotten from the Dead.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Jesus was procreated from the dead, that makes absolutely no sense, however he was definitely the first of a unique kind, the first to be raised from the Dead. Moreover let us look at the account of Abraham and Isaac on the Mountain, in Gen 22 we see the account of Abraham and Issac, and what does it say about Issac?

Gen 22:1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son


Now we know that Isaac wasnt Abrahams ONLY Son right? He had Ishmael, so why is God insistent on calling Isaac his ONLY Son? Well we have an account of this in the Greek in Hebrews and look at how it is rendered:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham, it doesnt mean he was the ONLY BORN of Abraham instead it is in relation to Isaacs unique position in relation to Abraham, in that according to the Bible it is Isaac that is the inheritor of the Promise made to Abraham, and this is why Isaac is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of Abraham. He is the unique relation, one of a kind position to Abraham.

Only Begotten in the understanding of Christ is the absolute unique position, one of a kind relationship that He has with the Father, no one else has this relationship and the reason why Jesus is the Only Begotten is because Jesus is God, He is in a relationship that nothing in all of existence is in with the Father, because Christ was never Created, He has always been, He is Eternal. He is the absolute unique one of a kind being, none other exists in all of creation like Him, because He is both God and Man, He is not an Angel, He is not just a Man, He is set apart, different, solely alone in all of existence.

This is what it means that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, He is the unique one of a kind being, in a unique one of a kind relationship to God. The only possible explanation of the make up of Christ being unique one of a kind in being and relationship is that He is both God and Man, as there is no other being that has the relationship to the Father and is wholly unique in being.
More long-winded arguments. You could've said all this in two paragraphs. Dac, I'm willing to have a discussion but I'm not going to be writing essays for you in response when I can say everything I need to in 2-3 paragraphs.
 

Daciple

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More long-winded arguments. You could've said all this in two paragraphs. Dac, I'm willing to have a discussion but I'm not going to be writing essays for you in response when I can say everything I need to in 2-3 paragraphs.
Man how old are you? Under 30? Under 25? I take it you must be young if you consider these last 2 posts long winded. I find it rather telling that one cant find the time to read a post over 140 characters or spend time learning or understanding ones opinion when they produce evidence and write out thoughts more than a paragraph long. I suppose its impossible for you to read a book smh...

Was that too long too? Twitter and Facebook has destroyed peoples ability to grasp concepts and read and have reading comprehension, ugh thats over 140 characters I cant comprehend it AHHHHH!

Im sorry I believe thats an excuse to not actually have a discussion probably because you arent able to either comprehend whats being told, or have an inability to formulate a legitimate response, oh well, dont respond and blame me for writing out detailed posts...
 

Damien50

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Man how old are you? Under 30? Under 25? I take it you must be young if you consider these last 2 posts long winded. I find it rather telling that one cant find the time to read a post over 140 characters or spend time learning or understanding ones opinion when they produce evidence and write out thoughts more than a paragraph long. I suppose its impossible for you to read a book smh...

Was that too long too? Twitter and Facebook has destroyed peoples ability to grasp concepts and read and have reading comprehension, ugh thats over 140 characters I cant comprehend it AHHHHH!

Im sorry I believe thats an excuse to not actually have a discussion probably because you arent able to either comprehend whats being told, or have an inability to formulate a legitimate response, oh well, dont respond and blame me for writing out detailed posts...
As evasive as his post may be presumably been was it not a bit arrogant and condescending of you to reply in that manner?

That is equally as off putting to anyone wishing to respond to you as his was to you. I'm on mobile and find it tiresome to read your lengthy post as detailed as they may be.
 

Daciple

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I don't believe Noah had sex with his children wow how disgusting and what a great form of slander to try and elevate Jesus.
What? Its slander to elevate Jesus to being Perfect? I believe you slander Jesus by saying others were perfect, but we know that even in your own Holy Text these Prophets werent truly sinless. Your religion has this very weird method of calming perfection while the person clearly exhibits Sin, like Muhammad who lied stole murdered ect...

Why would God send Noah to his nation, to try and warn them if they don't worship God alone and leave their sinful ways otherwise there'll be a flood?
Why did God aid him in his mission to build an ark and save the people who accept him as their prophet?
Can't you see that man has corrupted the word of God and altered the events that happened to corrupt the reputation of God's prophets?
So I guess you have never read the Bible, but claim to know of its corruption. And I am sorry it wasnt Noah it was Lot got drunk after the flood and his daughters came in and took advantage of him because they were afraid that there would be no one to reproduce with after the Flood. Noah got drunk and his children walked in on him naked. Noah followed God, and was the only one who followed God in a time where all of creation was being corrupted by the Fallen Angels. That is why God chose him, because he had Faith and was undefiled by the Fallen Angels.

The one I see altering the Word of God and the events that happened to Gods Prophets is Muhammad, trying to retell what actually happened to fit his made up Religion.

My point is, the bible seems to be full of hate for all these prophets and none of us were alive at the time of these people, so as a truth seeker I can only go on what the scriptures say. The bible is too conflicting for me to accept and too slanderous of these prophets. If we're honest with ourselves why would men sent by or chosen by God be so sinful?
The Bible absolutely has zero hate for these men, they are beloved men and fathers of the Faith, they speak to the fact that they are Humans just like you and me. Therefore why does God send or chose such men? To show that God is above man and that God is able to take a broken man like you or me and perform great and wonderful things thru them!!! What a powerful and wonderful God I serve, one who understands my brokenness but still says I want to use you for my plan, I can still use you to glorify my name, that you in your brokenness is exactly what I want and need, turn to me and I will strengthen you, guide you, and bring you to do things you never ever thought were possible!!! Praise the Lord!!!

Yes Moses killed a man, yes Adam and Eve at the apple but they were human.
Exactly, you just proved my point, Moses was a murderer, thus he wasnt perfect now was he? But somehow in your religion people who murder steal lie r*pe and whatnot are still considered perfect. News Flash they arent...

It's like Christians set themselves this unreleastic standard of perfection and condemn everyone for being sinful, but then Jesus came and died for the sins?
Its like Muslims set an unrealistic meaning of the word Perfect, throwing it anyone even when they murder lie r*pe steal and break every single point of the Law...

Christians acknowledge the facts, the fact that you are a sinner, that you break the Law, that you even break your own made up moral Law apart from any Religious mandate. This alone exposes the fact that you are not perfect. The founder of your Religion was far from Perfect when looking at him from an objective standpoint, he murdered, stole, lied, coveted, raped, pillaged and basically broke every one of the 10 Commandments, let alone the rest of the Law of Moses, yet you all elevate him to be perfect and the absolute blueprint of how men should live.

Christians look objectively at all humans, including prophets and say well they broke the Law therefore they are Guilty of Sin, so how does one attain Redemption of Sin? The god of Islam is not a god of justice whatsoever, you can break his law all day long apparently and he in no way requires justice for the sins committed before him. Say your sorry supposedly your good (but anyone who slightly studies the basic tenets of Islam knows thats not at all whats required to be possibly accepted by Allah, there are more stipulations, like acknowledging Allah as the only god and Muhammad as his prophet for starters. Or that one must be a Muslim, you and I both know no one really has a change to get to heaven by your Religion unless they are a follower of Islam.)

The facts are saying your sorry doesnt rectify the need for justice for the Sins one commits before a Perfect and Holy God. If I go to trial for IDK stealing $10,000 dollars from a bank and I stand before the judge, since there is a LAW that mandates a sentence, I can say I am sorry but that doesnt matter. If the Judge is a Truly Just Judge then he must sentence me to the penalty of the Law.

If we were to believe that we both serve the same God (we dont) then we ought to be able to agree He gave Moses a Law and contained in that Law was the penalties for breaking the Laws, and the method of bringing Justice. If we look at the Law He gave Moses, Sin is only covered by the Blood of the Innocent, otherwise Death is the Punishment. Jesus came to cover Sin and meet the Requirements so that God can still be fully Justified and Holy in His Justice and Redemption of mankind.

Allah just lets billions of people who are breaking the Law go with absolutely no justice being maintained, save the ones he throws in hell, because that is the punishment for Sin even in your religion, Hell. But all of you who were to go to Allahs heaven if it existed, were to be getting there without any Justice for your sins, Allah is a corrupt and unrighteous judge...

Why didn't he come before? What's so special about us that he died for? What happens to the people that have lived since Adam ? The bible doesn't answer any of these questions it just veils its gaps by affirming that Jesus is the way. I don't understand how Christians conclude he's god or god in the flesh and I don't accept there's sufficient evidence that suggests this
Why didnt He come before?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

He was slain from the foundation of the World, foreordained before the foundation of the World, God created the World already knowing how Redemption was to be found in Christ, in Himself.

Whats so special about us that He died?

He loves us and doesnt wish to see anyone have to pay the price for their Sins, so He came and made the way that no one ever has to endure the Punishment their Sins deserve, which is Hell...

What about those who came before Jesus?

Ive already answered that in detail, you are free to read the response here if you like:

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/all-ancient-gentiles-will-go-to-hell-heres-the-reason.540/#post-23569

Everyone is Judge equally, we all know there is a God, we all know we are Sinners, we all know we cant make up for our Sin. If one prior to Jesus coming have Repented (changed his mind) about Sin, knowing he is guilty and unable to make up for Sin, and cry for Salvation then I believe they would have accepted the Gospel if preached to them, thus the Blood is applied.

All of your questions are thoroughly answered in the Word of God, I dont believe you have ever tried to read it, not once...

As for the Quran, if you took the time to actually read it you'd understand it explains the story of existence, the fall of man, the role of God, why we're here, who created us, how God is ONE and did not come to earth to experience how it was to be human. Why would God need to experience it?he created us! If that's the case let him come as a cat or a chicken so he can find out what it's like to be an animal...
Ive read and studied Islam, the Koran and large portions of the Hadiths, all I see is it wants to corrupt the Word of God and was given by a False Prophet, with a god that doesnt comprehend justice...

So you want to tell me your god Allah, understands the temptation of Sin? Your god knows what its like to be sad? Knows what its like to be angry? Please dont lie, we both know that the god taught in Islam is wholly apart from Creation with absolutely no transcendence into creation itself. Your god doesnt know what its like for you to be heartbroken and lonely, to be upset and betrayed, to be depressed and full of anxiety. You can not actually identify with your god and your god cant actually identify with you..

My God 100% knows about every single emotion, and feeling I have or will ever experience, He knows just what its like to face temptation, and can identify with me in every single way.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

My God can identify with me, and all He wants is a Personal Relationship with me, Jesus knows and I can identify with Him when I am going thru struggles, when I am tempted, when I am afraid, when I am lonely, I have a Personal Relationship with my God. That doesnt exist in Islam, Allah is above you and cant transcend to your level, nor can you transcend to his level, you can just have a relationship where you externally worship him in hopes he hears or cares for you...

No thanks I will worship the One True God, who came into Existence, that Identifies with me in all ways, who can and does have a Personal Relationship with me, and who holds to being a Righteous Judge caring out and keeping Justice when people break His Law...

People have a problem with Mohammed because he was either Arab or he married a young girl despite not consummating his marriage until she was older. Character assassination is the only choice you guys have, please explain where an illiterate man got the extensive information explicitly described and clarified in the Quran? He could read or write it's impossible that he copied previous scripture...and most of the Quran is a continuation of previous books which were corrupted by man
I have a problem with Muhammad because he was a warlord, murdering, coveting, lying, stealing, raping, pillaging, barbarian, who has lead billions of people into hell with him by going directly against the main theology of Christ, that He died and resurrected for the Salvation of mankind.

Where did Muhammad get his information? First off his wifes cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a Catholic, I am sure he explained Catholicism to him, which explains why Muhammad doesnt understand the Trinity at all. And more over, I 100% believe he was visited by a Spirit in that cave, but that Spirit definitely wasnt Gabriel, Satan transforms himself as an angel of light. We know its not Gabriel because Gabriel wouldnt be telling others to deny the Atonement and Salvation found in Christ. Whether an Angel or a Man denies the Gospel they are to be accursed, that Spirit that came to your false prophet is accursed and Muhammad is accursed. I hope you repent and come to know the One True God and the only possibility of Salvation, thru the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ...
 
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Daciple

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As evasive as his post may be presumably been was it not a bit arrogant and condescending of you to reply in that manner?

That is equally as off putting to anyone wishing to respond to you as his was to you. I'm on mobile and find it tiresome to read your lengthy post as detailed as they may be.
Not trying to be arrogant or condescending just stating the facts of what I have seen, that the younger generation sadly cant "be bothered" to read or comprehend or have conversations past one to two paragraphs.

If you find it tiresome to read my posts, you dont have to, that is your choice, I am sure there are some who actually enjoy reading posts that contain detailed information, apparently you are not, so be it. I am not going to dumb down what I have to say because some people cant be bothered to read past a paragraph or two, while at the same time read dozens and dozens of 2-3 paragraph responses in one thread, displaying a hypocrisy of sorts in my view. To each their own, personally I enjoy people who take time and fully explain their points and give detailed and documented sources as to why they believe as they do. I find I can gain a much deeper understanding of that person and their perspective than what I can find out via 140 character responses...
 

Damien50

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Not trying to be arrogant or condescending just stating the facts of what I have seen, that the younger generation sadly cant "be bothered" to read or comprehend or have conversations past one to two paragraphs.

If you find it tiresome to read my posts, you dont have to, that is your choice, I am sure there are some who actually enjoy reading posts that contain detailed information, apparently you are not, so be it. I am not going to dumb down what I have to say because some people cant be bothered to read past a paragraph or two, while at the same time read dozens and dozens of 2-3 paragraph responses in one thread, displaying a hypocrisy of sorts in my view. To each their own, personally I enjoy people who take time and fully explain their points and give detailed and documented sources as to why they believe as they do. I find I can gain a much deeper understanding of that person and their perspective than what I can find out via 140 character responses...
Whether you are aware of it or not your comment to be was a bit arrogant, condescending, and assuming.

I never said I didn't like your pay but mobile makes it incredibly long to read. It's highly unfair if you to throw blanket statements of what my generation can and won't do.
 

Haich

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What? Its slander to elevate Jesus to being Perfect? I believe you slander Jesus by saying others were perfect, but we know that even in your own Holy Text these Prophets werent truly sinless. Your religion has this very weird method of calming perfection while the person clearly exhibits Sin, like Muhammad who lied stole murdered ect...
No it's slander to attribute incest to Noah and Lot. It's like you're trying to elevate Jesus by stripping those before him of any credibility. Maybe I'm wrong and that's not the intention of the bible but I do have to question a book that speaks so ill of men Jesus followed...

I didn't say they were sinless, Moses killed a man I agree but I disagree with the incest claims of Noah and Lot. The difference between our version of events is God pardoned Moses when he swift forgiveness plus he didn't intentionally kill, it was manslaughter. Why isn't forgiveness mentioned in the bible in regards to these men that God chose to lead nations? I just think it's off to say they sinned, we condemn them, but act like we don't sin. So Jesus saved you and now you're better than Noah and Lot?

Yh Mohammed's life has been widely discussed in the Mohammed thread so have a look there for any further questions about him. It's boring to repeat myself all the time but if you're genuinely interested I'll see if I can post some stuff later on in the day
 

Haich

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Exactly, you just proved my point, Moses was a murderer, thus he wasnt perfect now was he? But somehow in your religion people who murder steal lie r*pe and whatnot are still considered perfect. News Flash they arent...
How did you come to that conclusion ? o_O

Islam emphasises forgiveness and mercy and God is constantly telling us to return to him by facing our demons and leaving sinful acts. Everyone is prone to something, adultry, lying, stealth etc. Whatever your weakness is Satan plays on it to try and further you from God

We completely consider the things you mentioned sinful, it's not advocated or celebrated in our faith.if someone insists on doing those repeatedly, God eventually let's them be in their state and closes his mercy on them. We can't really speak for God he can forgive anyone he wants

I didn't say Moses was perfect, I find it odd that you keep focusing on this, the point I was making was he was a great man of God and God forgave him for what he did. In terms of slander I was focusing on Noah and Lot
 

Haich

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Mar 15, 2017
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6,654
I have a problem with Muhammad because he was a warlord, murdering, coveting, lying, stealing, raping, pillaging, barbarian, who has lead billions of people into hell with him by going directly against the main theology of Christ, that He died and resurrected for the Salvation of mankind.
Yh you sound republican. The theology of Christ didn't exist before Jesus so what were people doing then? Sound like a made up concept to me
 
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