Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

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#1
Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

Christians see a fall for man in Eden while the Jews see itas where man was elevated.

I see it as where, thanks to God’s murder by neglect of Adamand Eve, as where God fell. Adam and Eve would have lived much longer if Godhad not locked away the tree of life.

Common sense from a simple reading of Genesis, where man’seyes were open, knowing oneself as naked as Gods and developing a moral sense,tells us that it would be seen as good for man and not a fall. They have becomeas Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for amurdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or asChristians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth withOriginal Murder?

Regards
DL
 





llleopard

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#2
Hello GCB :) To me it seems more that this is simply part of God's complete plan of love that goes through the entire Bible. However, keep in mind that I am a Kingdom believer, so I read the bible in terms of types and symbols. Although I do believe there was a physical garden and fruit, I see them also as symbols of deep spiritual truths.
In the beginning, man was able to fellowship in the fullness of God's presence. In freewill, they chose to eat the fruit and were cursed. God cursed both the serpent - causing it to eat dust (the flesh, which is a whole nother story) and the people-causing them to eat plants without seed (loss of the thing that could reproduce indefinitely within them) They began to eat the food that was originally for the beasts of the field. This is where they fell - from intimate communion with God and remaining in His image, to being in the image of beasts (wearing their skins and eating their food). God did not necessarily 'want' this, but it was part of the entire plan which He has known from the beginning.
Throughout the Bible, we can see how food is vitally important - we can either choose to eat seedless products of the earthly realm that bring nothing forth, or the Word of God that will reproduce in us.
In Revelation 21 it explains how the curse will finally be lifted, and we will again have the right to the Tree of Life. Rather than murdering, I see this as a tremendous example of God's love for mankind. I see that some believers will be caught up again into the fullness of God's presence - this is why I don't believe in a 'rapture' - we didn't 'fall' onto a natural earth, and I can't see that God will 'raise' us up off it naturally either. :)
 





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#3
Hello GCB To me it seems more that this is simply part of God's complete plan of love that goes through the entire Bible. However, keep in mind that I am a Kingdom believer, so I read the bible in terms of types and symbols. Although I do believe there was a physical garden and fruit, I see them also as symbols of deep spiritual truths.
In the beginning, man was able to fellowship in the fullness of God's presence. In freewill, they chose to eat the fruit and were cursed.
Hello llleopard.

To exercise free will, one needs to know what the options are. Without the knowledge of good and evil, a choice cannot be made as one would not know the choices and whether or not one was choosing good or evil. As the bible says, their eyes were closed. They had no desire to choose without knowing the options.

Fellowship takes desire and love. Love is good and A & E had no knowledge of love till after they learned it from the tree of knowledge. You are reading much into the story that is not there logically.

God cursed both the serpent - causing it to eat dust (the flesh, which is a whole nother story) and the people-causing them to eat plants without seed (loss of the thing that could reproduce indefinitely within them) They began to eat the food that was originally for the beasts of the field. This is where they fell - from intimate communion with God and remaining in His image, to being in the image of beasts (wearing their skins and eating their food). God did not necessarily 'want' this, but it was part of the entire plan which He has known from the beginning.
Why did God put the talking serpent with Eve if he did not want her tempted?

Omni-present God was there watching yet did not prevent the temptation so must have wanted it to happen, especially when you consider that he had already chosen to have Jesus murdered/sacrificed.
Can't have a sacrifice without Original sin. Right?

That seed thing is weird. Man does not want plants growing inside of him.

the Word of God that will reproduce in us.
This is perfect.

The Word of God was now on earth thanks to A & E knowing good and evil and able to paaa on that information since they were now, as God said, they are as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Without God tempting them to eat of knowledge, we would not know what God does.

Do you see that?

Regards
DL
 





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#4
I see a clear rise for improved man and a fall for amurdering God.

Do you see as the Jews do, Original Virtue, --- or asChristians do, Original Sin, or as I do with God bringing death to earth withOriginal Murder?

Regards
DL
None of these.. the story of the fall is a metaphor for the separation from the original experience of knowledge, and instead choosing to become entranced by the input of the central nervous system as if the outer reality is all that is available to experience.
 





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#6
The Bible is literal and so is that old serpent the devil. God allowed Adam and Eve to have freedom of choice because Satan would have argued with God the same as he did about Job, saying that the only reason people follow God is because He protects them and does not give them any choice. God wants people to follow Him of their own free will and Satan cannot stand before God and complain that He is not fair and just. God allowed the angels freedom of choice and one third rebelled against Him. I am sure that more than one third of the people have chose to follow Satan and they willingly reject God. There are some who have chose to follow God at all cost even if it cost them their lives.
 





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#7
I understand what you are saying, but what it really amounts to is that a person only has two choices. They can follow God or follow Satan. There is no middle ground or gray area. That is why Satan will do anything to confuse people or try to deceive them at any cost. Anything that Satan can offer is only temporary. Nothing he can offer is worth losing your eternal soul and being cast into outer darkness. It may seem like you have no free will, but that is just another one of Satan's lies.
 





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#9
Think about the alternative. Would you rather serve a God who loves and cares about you or a being that wants to lead you into destruction?
That not what the PR department for Satan would have you believe ;-)

You can only feel the greatest pity for those that have swallowed these lies when the awful (and endless) moment that their exit from this world arrives. What horror to realise they are eternal beings whether they like it or not, and have to consider they have spat in the face of the God who loved them a thousand times.
 





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#10
Satan is very experienced at turning people away from the truth. But it seems that he has completely deceived most of the entire world. Those who do know the truth will someday look narrowly at Satan and think is this the one who caused so much trouble on the earth? In the light of God, he has very little power over the true believers and really not anything to tempt us with. There really is no peace and happiness without God.
 





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#11
None of these.. the story of the fall is a metaphor for the separation from the original experience of knowledge, and instead choosing to become entranced by the input of the central nervous system as if the outer reality is all that is available to experience.
So gaining knowledge, to you, is separation from knowledge. I do not have a polite comment here.

Tell us about your inner reality. Perhaps that will qualify your initial comment.

Regards.
DL
 





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#13
The Bible is literal and so is that old serpent the devil. God allowed Adam and Eve to have freedom of choice because Satan would have argued with God the same as he did about Job, saying that the only reason people follow God is because He protects them and does not give them any choice. God wants people to follow Him of their own free will and Satan cannot stand before God and complain that He is not fair and just. God allowed the angels freedom of choice and one third rebelled against Him. I am sure that more than one third of the people have chose to follow Satan and they willingly reject God. There are some who have chose to follow God at all cost even if it cost them their lives.
Literal reading of myths was frowned upon by the ancients and I agree with them. It is a sign of a dissonant mind. That aside, your comment on free will makes no sense. The following speaks to both issues. Apologies for the length.

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

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Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.

First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards

DL

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Evolutionary theology.

 





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#15
I understand what you are saying, but what it really amounts to is that a person only has two choices. They can follow God or follow Satan. There is no middle ground or gray area. That is why Satan will do anything to confuse people or try to deceive them at any cost. Anything that Satan can offer is only temporary. Nothing he can offer is worth losing your eternal soul and being cast into outer darkness. It may seem like you have no free will, but that is just another one of Satan's lies.
Count the bodies in the scriptures. God's and Satan's.

Who would you rather follow God or Satan?

I think you would prefer to be confused and alive than dead.

Why does your God kill when he could just as easily cure?

Jesus said he came to minister to the sick, not murder then like he does in his Yahweh suit.

Regards
DL
 





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#16
Satan is very experienced at turning people away from the truth. But it seems that he has completely deceived most of the entire world. Those who do know the truth will someday look narrowly at Satan and think is this the one who caused so much trouble on the earth? In the light of God, he has very little power over the true believers and really not anything to tempt us with. There really is no peace and happiness without God.
Given that the vast majority of the world are religious, I agree that, " it seems that he has completely deceived most of the entire world."

Tell us why God specifically gave Satan the power to do that?

Satan did not have that power before God put Satan on earth. Why would Gpd want so many religious people deceived?

Regards
DL
 





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#19
To give you one shot at doing it right or spending an eternity in a nightmare torture dimension is the opposite of love, and i cant help but sense absolute glee in you for the damned.
I for one have no glee for the damned. But I do feel as though people who choose to do evil and hurt others or kill people deserve to be punished. Like I said before, would you rather follow God who loves and cares about you enough to sacrifice His Son or a being that wants to destroy you. If it is all black and white there is no other option. If you have another opinion then that is ok. But from a Biblical standpoint there is only two choices.
 





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#20
To give you one shot at doing it right or spending an eternity in a nightmare torture dimension is the opposite of love, and i cant help but sense absolute glee in you for the damned.
If you want to see just how much the religious love to hate all other tribal members, even their own, have a look at this story.


Regards
DL