What Is Monotheism Really About?

rainerann

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Shamanism is the original religion. And shamanism is the source that all the other religions flowed from. Some people, some where, in some ancient times saw some stuff- and what they saw ended up in books. That was where the religions came from.
I agree with what you are saying. However, Christianity doesn't deviate from this point of origin since Christianity is derived from the ancient religion of Judaism. The prophet is really the same thing as a Shaman because they were the ones who could communicate with God. The priesthood was also responsible for responding to the sick.

In Christianity, the presence of the Holy Spirit is also similar in concept because we are communicating with God through the Holy Spirit.

I am pretty sure some applications of Shamanism were monotheistic too.

Still, we are left with the subject of sin. Where did sin come from?

It is interesting to notice that there are no other explanations for the origin of sin in any other religion or belief system.
 

TMT

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Still, we are left with the subject of sin. Where did sin come from?

It is interesting to notice that there are no other explanations for the origin of sin in any other religion or belief system.
Well sin is pretty subjective and a lot of what is called sin in the bible isn't in reality and a lot of actual sins aren't sins in the bible.

I think all of us would agree though that murder and unwarranted violence are sins and that exists because as humans evolved on this planet, we had to violently survive in the wild and as we became civilized those violent tendencies remained but didn't have any proper outlets. And after civilization came centuries of mass warfare the shock of which has left a scar on our collective DNA memory.
 

rainerann

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Well sin is pretty subjective and a lot of what is called sin in the bible isn't in reality and a lot of actual sins aren't sins in the bible.

I think all of us would agree though that murder and unwarranted violence are sins and that exists because as humans evolved on this planet, we had to violently survive in the wild and as we became civilized those violent tendencies remained but didn't have any proper outlets. And after civilization came centuries of mass warfare the shock of which has left a scar on our collective DNA memory.
Except for the fact that animals exhibit a range of temperments. A deer in the forest doesn't "sin" in order to survive. How is each different temperment determined and where do you have anything to support your hypothesis from the study of evolution?

Also, where did death come from and why aren't there more explanations for the presence of death?

From my experience working in a hospital, I have seen many people die of natural causes. Although, dying because of old age always seems to more of an unnatural event every time I have witnessed it. I stand in the room where someone has died and I just think about how unnatural it seems to die. There is a residue I can't explain, but it is the same reason that many people don't become morticians.

So what we call natural causes is also subjective because there doesn't seem to be anything natural about death; and no matter how many people have died throughout history, few people have ever asked the question: "where did death come from?"

Don't you think that is odd considering how many religions there have been throughout history? Not one of them appear to have asked this question. Even today, in the expoloration of the subject of evolution, finding a reason for death seems to be outside of the scope of the evolutionary scientist.
 

TMT

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Except for the fact that animals exhibit a range of temperments. A deer in the forest doesn't "sin" in order to survive. How is each different temperment determined and where do you have anything to support your hypothesis from the study of evolution?

Also, where did death come from and why aren't there more explanations for the presence of death?

From my experience working in a hospital, I have seen many people die of natural causes. Although, dying because of old age always seems to more of an unnatural event every time I have witnessed it. I stand in the room where someone has died and I just think about how unnatural it seems to die. There is a residue I can't explain, but it is the same reason that many people don't become morticians.

So what we call natural causes is also subjective because there doesn't seem to be anything natural about death; and no matter how many people have died throughout history, few people have ever asked the question: "where did death come from?"

Don't you think that is odd considering how many religions there have been throughout history? Not one of them appear to have asked this question. Even today, in the expoloration of the subject of evolution, finding a reason for death seems to be outside of the scope of the evolutionary scientist.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/sep/28/natural-born-killers-humans-predisposed-to-study-suggests
https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-inherited-killing-each-other-through-evolution

Our earliest Aeon ancestors weren't consumed and obsessed by death as those who followed them and they didn't question it because it just the way it is. It's the most natural thing on the planet, organic material does not last forever and that's what we are.
 

Camidria

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Well sin is pretty subjective and a lot of what is called sin in the bible isn't in reality and a lot of actual sins aren't sins in the bible.

I think all of us would agree though that murder and unwarranted violence are sins and that exists because as humans evolved on this planet, we had to violently survive in the wild and as we became civilized those violent tendencies remained but didn't have any proper outlets. And after civilization came centuries of mass warfare the shock of which has left a scar on our collective DNA memory.
From a evolutionary standpoint I would say that even violence and murder is subjective, because if you really think about it, we are then random balls of cells and our lives means nothing, so everything that was set in order in our societies to preserve life is also subjective. From an evolutionary standpoint we invented our own "set of morals and values" so who is to say murdering someone is truly wrong, nothing really sets us apart from animals than perhaps intellect? We are nothing special really so.....
 

TMT

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From a evolutionary standpoint I would say that even violence and murder is subjective, because if you really think about it, we are then random balls of cells and our lives means nothing, so everything that was set in order in our societies to preserve life is also subjective. From an evolutionary standpoint we invented our own "set of morals and values" so who is to say murdering someone is truly wrong, nothing really sets us apart from animals than perhaps intellect? We are nothing special really so.....
I believe in evolution but I believe that life has meaning and I think most people who believe in evolution think that way. For whatever reason we do have some spark in us that makes us different from the animals. And although human history is one long atrocity the vast majority of strive to get a long without hurting others. I am sorry if you believe that without an all-powerful deity controlling everything in the universe and judging your life that there is no purpose to it.

This life is just one iteration and death should not be feared but viewed as something new.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I believe in evolution but I believe that life has meaning and I think most people who believe in evolution think that way. For whatever reason we do have some spark in us that makes us different from the animals. And although human history is one long atrocity the vast majority of strive to get a long without hurting others. I am sorry if you believe that without an all-powerful deity controlling everything in the universe and judging your life that there is no purpose to it.

This life is just one iteration and death should not be feared but viewed as something new.
Have you arrived at your Evolutionary view through science, or because it is more in line with your wider world view? Just wondering?
 

Camidria

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I believe in evolution but I believe that life has meaning and I think most people who believe in evolution think that way. For whatever reason we do have some spark in us that makes us different from the animals. And although human history is one long atrocity the vast majority of strive to get a long without hurting others. I am sorry if you believe that without an all-powerful deity controlling everything in the universe and judging your life that there is no purpose to it.

This life is just one iteration and death should not be feared but viewed as something new.
Seems to me that some Christians judged and treated you or some people you know very badly, and came across as controlling, I am sorry if that is the case, we are not all like that, and it is sad because those people are not following Jesus.

I know nothing I will say will make you change your mind of how you think about God, and I can understand why you feel like you feel towards religion and towards God. But I challenge you to ask Him to reveal Himself to you, if you truly want to get to know God, I am sure He will reveal Himself to you.

What you are experiencing of God is wrong, and it is not my experience of Him at all. The things that make you think badly about Him, He has explained to me through a relationship.

What you see and experience is a stone crushing you to a pulp when you think about God.
What I see is this soft, beautiful flower that is given to me, and with that a gentleness that removes the stones that crushed my heart....
 

rainerann

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I believe in evolution but I believe that life has meaning and I think most people who believe in evolution think that way. For whatever reason we do have some spark in us that makes us different from the animals. And although human history is one long atrocity the vast majority of strive to get a long without hurting others. I am sorry if you believe that without an all-powerful deity controlling everything in the universe and judging your life that there is no purpose to it.

This life is just one iteration and death should not be feared but viewed as something new.
Where are you getting the impression that death is something new without an exploration of death as an unnatural event that causes a spiritual man to become separated from a physical one?

When does evolutionary science support the notion that there is anything new to look forward to as the result of death?

In order for there to be something new caused by death, you need to accept the possibility of a spirit. When or how does a spirit evolve and why doesn't science seek to answer these questions?

If science doesn't answer these question and religion doesn't seek to answer questions about the structure of a cell, why are religions condemned for seeking to understand how life continues after death and becomes this new experience you speak of?

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with religion as a method of seeking understanding of this subject. I would actually consider evolutionary a form of monotheism in this regard, because there is no other form of discussion that can be introduced to the person who believes in evolution. Everything is explained through this, and you are actually suggesting that everything is not explained through this, because there is no way for evolution to explain the separation of the spirit from the physical body at death or why this happens.
 

Karlysymon

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Okay, so we all agree that there is an absolute truth in regard to religion. Why the myriad of religions or the myriad of sects within Christianity? Is it just everyone's (different) way of reaching out to God? If that is the case, then there can't be a false religion. Vaishnavism is then as legit as Mithraism or Judaism or Islam. Ummm, many paths....

Etagloc said:
Adam had a direct
connection with God... he
didn't need priests or scriptures
....or ayahuasca.

Unfortunately, he was forever scarred after he pulled the plug. Shamanism has been raging since the 60s, moreso in the last decade. So i guess it all boils down to 'whatever works for you'....take your pick: priests, scriptures or ayahuasca.

I watched the video and its about time the priest spoke out about hell-fire. Its an illogical concept/belief. Fire consumes, we all know this, so how are souls to burn in fire for eternity?
 

Karlysymon

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Is religion a (mind) control tool?
This is a long post that i originally put up here.
******
Note: I greatly respect Jan Irvin and his work despite the fact that he may lean towards the conspiracy that Rome dreamed up Christianity as a form of control.
******

Iam interested in how MKULTRA is being applied to the mass. All
research into this matter shows that that was or is the intended
goal. The victims in countless
labs were used to refine the
process. In this EXCELLENT paper
by Jan Irvin, his research reveals a rarely
mentioned aspect of MKULTRA.
That the CIA/Military, in putting
together their 60's counter- culture movement, they would
'use' drugs in two ways:

1). declare a war on drugs
because 'the forbidden always
has a charm' and in this way,
the youth would be enticed (thus 'manufacturing their
deadhead'-another great paper)
but also provide reason for a let
up in laws in the future.

From Koestler I learned
about
juvenilization, the
theory that evolution
occurs not in the adult
(final form) of a species but in juveniles, larvals,
adolescents, pre-adults.
The practical conclusion:
if you want to bring about
mutations in a species,
work with the young. Koestler’s teaching about
paedomorphosis prepared
me to understand the
genetic implications of the
1960s youth movement
and its rejection of the old culture ~
Timothy Leary

2). The CIA (behind celebrities,
doctors, Terrence Mckenna,
Timothy Leary, Gordon Wasson
etc) would also lie to the public
by claiming that by taking
, soma, LSD, 'shrooms, you name it, they would grow spiritually
and attain godhood.

“The problem is
tricky,” I said. “The
opposition beat us to the
punch. The psychiatrists
and police propagandists
have already stressed the negative (of psychedelics),
which can be dangerous
when the mind is re-
imprinting under..... It’s
like the over-solicitous
mother who warned her kids not to push peanuts
up their noses.”
“Exactly,” agreed[Marshal]
McLuhan. “That’s why your
advertising must stress the
religious. Find the god within. This is all frightfully
interesting. Your
competitors are naturally
denouncing the brain as an
instrument of the devil.
Priceless!~
Timothy Leary

Which explains why there is
growing number of people
journeying to the Amazon to
seek out shamans and gain
much publicized spiritual
experiences (others have noted the uptick since the 60s with
many celebrities subscribing to
eastern mysticism). Now, iam
not here with a bull horn, going
off on anyone who is doing this
and has done it before but i think we all need to sit down
and take an honest, objective
look at how we are being
manipulated and how much we
have bought into their lies. TPTB
are doing everything in their power to put us to sleep, for the
mass to be a dead-head
whether through , prescription
pills (addiction), water
fluoridation, contrabands et al.
We've been held down on a giant hospital bed, in for a
lobotomy.
I then asked myself, could this
be behind more states
(American) and Uruguay
legalizing recreational marijuana use? Amsterdam in
Holland is well known for that.
Why now? How does the state
benefit from all this? Do they
care so much about little me
enough to grant me that right? Have the activists finally won
because the War on Drugs is un
winnable and legalization is the
best path? Turns out
1percenters are in it to win it.
Monsanto and George Soros made sure that the legislation in
Uruguay
was passed.
In the weird world of MKULTRA, spooks, drugs and pseudo-
spirituality all collide. And even
before the project was given
birth, Aldous Huxley mentions
in Brave New World that Soma
will be at the ready for those who encounter those moments,
when one desires to reach out
to God. Soma will satiate the
spiritual longing or hunger in
that 'new world'. So i ask, have
we entered that world or are we at the threshold??? It has
also given birth to 'native
revivalism'
. A century ago, in
the West, things to do with
shamans were synonymous
with third world or primitive cultures. Things are certainly
different now.
Jan Irvin writes: Some of you may be
thinking right about now,
or you have been for some
time, “well,
psychedelics and
mushrooms DO generate religious and
spiritual experiences!”
Well, as we’ve seen
throughout this paper,and
it really shouldn’t be all
that much of a surprise by now, much
of that assumption
appears to have been
public relations too.
The
topic of dark
shamanism should also be mentioned, but is too vast
for this article, so I offer a
brief
quote from Prof. Neil
Whitehead and Dr. Robin
Wright instead: Amazonian shamanism is
not a loving animism, as
its middle-class urban
vulgate want us to believe.
It is better understood as a
predatory animism: subjectivity is attributed to
human and non-human
entities, with whom some
people are capable of
interacting verbally and
establishing relationships of adoption or alliance,
which permit them to act
upon the world in order to
cure, to fertilize, and to kill.
[…] "

In pondering the subject matter,
i curiously found that most
movements or 'faiths' outside of
true Christianity have this real
obsession with reaching
apotheosis (to become god or generate the god within). It is
the final stage in evolution, New
Ageism, Freemasonry,
Luciferianism, et al. Certainly in
a quote above, McLuhan and
Leary play on a weakness in man that runs very deep
[yeezus, the Hov, anyone?]. I can
understand because it is the one
lie that humanity has
steadfastly held onto. They
employed the Fallen Archangel's age-old trick
"For God doth know that in the
day ye eat thereof, then your
eyes shall be opened, and y e
shall be as gods, knowing good
and evil." Genesis 3:5
In evolution, transhumanism is
the stage before apotheosis.
Thanks to the elites.

"Evolution is a spiritual
process
and makes us more
godlike"~
Ray Kurzweil [Google's
head of engineering]

Human cloning researcher,
Richard Seed; "We are
going to become Gods.
Period. If you don't like it,
get off. You don't have to
contribute; you don't have to participate. But if you're
going to interfere with me
becoming God, we're
going to have big trouble.
Then we'll have warfare."


A persistent oddity i have
noticed is how many renowned,
learned men and women all
subscribe to evolution publicly
but quietly acknowledge a
spiritual side of man. T.H Huxley,Julian (coined the word
Transhumanism) and Aldous
Huxley were all evolutionists.
Why does he mention that
curiosity in his dystopic novel.
Which in fact isn't fiction but a blue print for the world being
crafted for us. These are the
same people who 'spirit
cook',who stage events on or
around dates with religious
significance. Why cater to the spiritual self if its non-existent?
We see it again with CERN and
the statue of Shiva in front of
the building. If we all evolved,
how do we account for the
existence of man's spiritual self? Why are we seeking out
shamans? Why does an entire
industry (in India) exist around
Eat Pray Love?
I ask again, would all this have
been possible unless there'd been a forced separation to
occur between man and his
Creator? The undeniable truth is
that man is a spiritual being and
when God is forced out
someone else walks in to occupy that spiritual space.


(Five in his series on
MKultra which are worth one's time. I already mentioned
Manufacturing the Dead head
with Joe Atwill.)

Finally, In Darkness and Secrecy:
The
Anthropology of Assault
Sorcery and Witchcraft in

Amazonia, Prof. Neil
Whitehead and Dr. Robin Wright provide this
warning: Shamanism is a
burgeoning
obsession for the middle
classes around the globe.
It's presentation in popular books, TV specials and on
the
internet is dominated by
the
presumed psychic and
physical benefits that "shamanic techniques" can
bring. This heightened
interest has required a
persistent purification of
the
ritual practices of those who inspire the feverish
quest
for personal meaning and
fulfillment.
Ironically,[…] given the
self- improvement motivations
that have brought so many
into popular
understanding of
shamanism, two defining
aspects of shamanism in Amazonia: blood, ie
violence, and tobacco, have
simply been erased from
such
representations. Such
erasure is not only a vein self-
deception, but more
important it is a
recapitulation of colonial
ways of knowing through
both the denial of radical cultural difference and
refusal to think through its
consequences.”


Jan Irvin continues: We’ve seen how
weaponized
anthropology and native
revivalism were sold to the
masses. It appears that the
“religious experience” sold to the population via the
drugs, neo-shamanism and
Eastern mysticism was

something else entirely, a
wolf in sheep’s clothing –
the Fall.
 
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Aero

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@Aero ... Put another way, and without being prescriptive here, how do you sit with the notion of a specific God (or gods, if the inclination takes you) with genuine attributes who is / are real, as you and I are real?
I'm fine with the notion. If you remember my trip into the world of Gnosticism, it's all about Jesus achieving the "Gnosis" and teaching the rest of the world. I don't think they believe it made him "God" per say. But it's open to interpretation, that's the beauty of a cult I guess.

I think a person can take on God like attributes, so God therefore can take a human form. But it seems awfully redundant. Like God can just astral project into this world, and problem instantly solved. But why would he? What if those cults are right, and they are the ones actually knocking on Gods doorbell.
 

Etagloc

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I had a lot of respect for Francis Schaffer... He had a Christian upbringing but reached a crisis point where he questioned what he believed and why he believed it. It is not wrong to do this, and for anyone who is intellectually credible, it is a point you must reach and a question you must answer.

He went on to write a book I read 20 years ago entitled "The God Who Is There"...
I definitely believe in God. I am not remotely an atheist.

But.... I wouldn't describe myself as in a spiritual crisis. And me questioning things is not a sign of spiritual crisis.... that's just my normal state. I want new ideas, I want intellectual stimulation, I want to explore new stuff. That's just what's normal for me.

Now if I believed all the religions were 100% literally true, then I think karlysimon would be right and this would be a contradiction.

But I don't think all the stuff is literally true. I think it's metaphorically true. I think there is an underlying truth but like I said... it's like maps, not the road itself- or people writing about a movie. Five people trying to describe the same thing are all going to describe it differently. But there will be parallels.

As far as the gods... what I believe is this....

God will hear your prayer no matter how you pray. Whether you're a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, whatever- I don't think God is going to not hear your prayer or ignore your prayer just because you're of a particularl religion.

The other thing as far as spiritual crisis is... it is not a spiritual crisis for me to not be a Christian- at least I don't experience it as a crisis.

I don't believe hell is eternal. I do believe in hell but I don't think it's eternal.

If Christianity is true, hell is eternal and everyone who isn't Christian is going to hell. That is horrifying.

Also- salvation is by faith, right?

So.... a Christian who believes in Christ but is also a p***phile.... they will go to heaven.... meanwhile a Muslim who is sincere, who loves God with all their heart, prays five times a day, is super insanely dedicated to worshipping and serving God to the best of their knowledge and ability- that person is going to hell for eternity while the Christian p***phile is saved.

How is that "good news"? If that's true, that's horrible news.
 
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Etagloc

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@Karlysymon not quoting your post because it's very long lol....

LSD... ayahuasca.... weed.

Basically, there are different schools of thought. If you mess with this stuff, you will probably never think the same way again.

You will experience some things and if you go to the point of doing LSD.... you will see some things.

I've smoked a lot of weed and I've done acid (acid is dangerous if you're not careful) and it has altered the way I think.

What is undeniable is that you experience altered states of consciousness. However- I don't want to reduce the concept of altered consciousness to just drug-induced states. It's not necessarily just drugs. Meditation, Islamic prayer (salat), dreams, NDEs (near-death-experiences), daydreams, that weird state between awake and asleep.... I think all these things can be associated with altered states.

And you mention the 60's and the middle-class. I am not of the middle-class and.... as far as shamanism goes, shamanism is way older than the 60's. It became more mainstream but it's been around longer than any of the Abrahamic religions. I'm not how I am because of the 60's.... the roots for me go back way further... back to before my ancestors knew Christianity.

In any case- as far as experience of altered states- the existence of altered states of course is not the question. And it's not just drugs- for muslims who are reading, would you say that salat has ever induced an altered state of consciousness? Would you saw that you have ever experienced some sort of... hard-to-explain, different state of consciousness during salat?

I think that salat- particularly if done with powerful faith and with deep conviction brings people closer to God and can induce things such as sudden flashes of insight and possibly what could be called altered states of consciousness.

Now.... that's not to say salat is the same as smoking weed- I don't want to offend anyone. Maybe salat brings you closer to God and maybe we might say weed makes you possessed in a bad way.

And that is the question- when people are experiencing altered states of consciousness, are these higher states or are they actually being tricked?

And I think this is something you have to decide for yourself. I don't think anyone can prove it either way.

Personally.... I agree with the sort of stuff Timothy Leary was talking about. I agree with consciousness exploration and all that. I agree with exploring altered states of consciousness. I am not talking about acid- I've only done acid a few times and it's not something I do normally. Butvthere are other ways to induce altered states of consciousness and there is other stuff I'm into that I don't talk about on here.... I like to mess with stuff (not talking about drugs- can't emphasize that enough- I am not for drugs- except for weed, which I think has medicinal uses) that some people won't.... personally I am a very curious person and I like to push the big red button.
 

Etagloc

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And so basically by that video.... whatever we do is not good enough. Nothing we do will make us good, we are irredemably fallen- because we are human. And so because we are human we deserve to go to hell- because we are human. However- if we believe in Jesus- then we don't deserve to go to hell?????? o_O
 

Etagloc

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Does God hate humans? So... we deserve to go to hell simply because we are humans? We cannot possibly be good enough and therefore we deserve to go to hell?

Does a bird deserve hell for being a bird? Does a fish deserve hell for being a fish? People deserve hell for being people?

I don't think that makes sense. You don't judge a fish by the standards of a bird. You judge a fish by fish standards. You judge a bird by bird standards. You have to judge a human by the standards appropriate for a human- that is sane. You can't expect a human to be perfect and then say they deserve hell for not being perfect. That is not sane. You can't person in a. rigged game and then say they deserve hell because they lost when the game was rigged against them.

And then the person somehow does not deserve hell because they believe in Jesus????? o_O

But the person who made an honest mistake and did not realize they were following the wrong religion- they deserve hell, though??? o_O

This does not make sense- the only way I can make this make sense is if I say "okay. This does not make sense. I am going to think about something else and not think about this." That's the only way I can make Christianity make sense- I have to not ask questions and simply not think about certain things.

Whereas the Quran is logical- Islam is a thinking person's religion and the Quran's position here makes sense- God is going to judge you by your heart and by your actions. This makes way more sense and is way more natural.
 
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Etagloc

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There is a natural law that is prior to any religion.

And there are aspects of Christianity that conflict with natural law. I think Islam is actually way more in alignment with natural law.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Etagloc ...

The parable of the tax collector and the pharasee was told to a group of people who had lived there whole lives for the most part adhering to the law.

On the other hand, they had the sacrificial system which reminded them of sin and consequence. Somehow, so many of them failed to put the implications together.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/parable-Pharisee-tax-collector.html

With your comments on spiritual experience, I feel that if you search for truth, experience follows (and I have had many confirmations of this) but if you seek for experience, deception follows, and I have spoke with many who have found this to be true at there cost.
 
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